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Why do so many modern adults take pride in watching superhero films and reading YA?
>>8016020
My emotions matter, victim = hero mentality. Or choice.
Because its entertainment. I dont see how that's hard to understand.
They're still children or they're just retarded. Even as a kid I didn't read YA because it's schlock.
Our society and our literature and our culture are being dumbed down, and the causes are very complex. I'm 73 years old. In a lifetime of teaching English, I've seen the study of literature debased. There's very little authentic study of the humanities remaining. My research assistant came to me two years ago saying she'd been in a seminar in which the teacher spent two hours saying that Walt Whitman was a racist. This isn't even good nonsense. It's insufferable.
>>8016031
Watching reality TV is entertaining but that's not a reason to feel proud about it.
>>8016031
ulysses and moby dick are also entertainment
there's no excuse for plebdom
>>8016048
Who cares. Put your nose in whatever book you like and enjoy yourself.
I'm reading Crime And Punishment at the moment, and I can see why someone might want to read the exact opposite sort of work. That's not a criticism of Dostoievsky necessarily, but his vantage point is quite particular.
People are conditioned to seek out positive messages, even if those messages are shallow and manipulative. Look at the recent crop of political figures in the United States, they appear very influenced by something like Guardians of The Galaxy.
I encourage Adornos essays and discussion on education and maturity.
>>8016020
I don't think they "take pride" in it, people are just looking for some easily-digested popcorn time-filler and stuff like cape movies and YA is what fits the bill for them.
Nostalgia and irony.
>>8016020
because some people can enjoy things without them being in a top 100 literary greats list
>>8016069
>Look at the recent crop of political figure in the United States, they appear very influenced by something like Guardians of the Galaxy
>>8016069
Then they should read Laurence Sterne or Henry Fielding. Adults who read children's books are just pathetic.
>In fact, you'll find they often have provocative themes and complex characters that are equal to most of the books you'll find on the "adult" fiction shelves
Could they be subtly implying that adult fiction books are as shitty as YA?
Not that I care.
>>8016069
>There was a whirr of leaves and then three separate thuds as Dostoevski, Tolstoy, and Checkov flew out of the open window and struck the bole of an oak tree, "The idea is," explained H.M., 'I want you to read some fellers named Dumas and Mark Twain and Stevenson and Chesterton and Conan Doyle.
>Anyway, who cares what happens to people called Sonya Beerwichkov Parapourdipoff and Feodor Ireoffenskeky Varaverakinsoleovitch?
>>8016092
c-c-cant i read fairytales then?
>>8016020
I'm not sure I subscribe to the "it's for entertainment, it's popcorn" argument.
I for tend to exclusively read classics or "literary fiction," and once convinced myself that I must be some sort of snob to not read best-selling airport novels, or crime, or Harry Potter, or whatever.
So I decided to pick up a bestselling thriller and just read it as entertainment, thinking that it must be incredibly ready and readable and entertaining, if not particularly rewarding.
I lasted about 20 pages, and not because while I was reading I wish it was Joyce or whatever, but because it was so simple and shallow it bored me.
Most people are very easily pleased, and are happy to consume books that are simple and skin-deep. It's the same reason grown men pay to see films about the same handful of superheroes month after month.
>>8016118
>I'm not sure I subscribe to the "it's for entertainment, it's popcorn" argument.
>Most people are very easily pleased, and are happy to consume books that are simple and skin-deep. It's the same reason grown men pay to see films about the same handful of superheroes month after month.
Make up your mind
Instead of what? Watching westerns and reading pulp thrillers? A lot of YA is more intelligent and complex than the dogshit written for adults.
>>8016020
Younger adults tend to be unwilling to entertain the following ideas:
-that not all forms of reading material are equal
-that instant gratification and constant stimulation are not the only uses for culture
-that we have a moral obligation to expand our reading and develop our intelligence
>>8016110
I know that Merrivale is a 'good English common sense' type, but it's crazy to suggest that Chekhov couldn't tell a good story.
>>8016133
carr was clearly biased on top of him disliking subtlety
but he was amazing at creating mysteries so i like him anyway
>>8016120
for some it is entertaining
but for others, it is boring
some people require more complexity to be entertained
>>8016020
Why do you take pride in the fact that you don't?
>>8016034
Bloom? Is that you?
>>8016139
Bingo.
>>8016020
I still read Garth Nix, top author.
>>8016034
Plato says the same thing
>>8016034
are you the same grandpa that hates harry potter like three threads over? Hi there!
because there's literally nothing wrong with them
>>8016048
yes it is. being 'in' on something that's 'in'
Real issues comes when people starts to read "real" litterature the same way they read YA fiction. As long as the entertainement field and the cultural field (by Arendt's definition of them) remain distinct, the latter can still live.
The other day I searched "Histoire de l’oeil" on youtube, just curious about what I would find. That was terrifiing, it was full of "reviews" of people reading it like they would read Harry Potter.
>>8016231
Good point anon.
>>8016231
>That was terrifiing, it was full of "reviews" of people reading it like they would read Harry Potter.
Can you give us an example? I genuinely don't know how people read Harry Potter.
>>8016034
I love this man so much
>>8016020
I like to get blazed and watch romantic comedies. I bet its fun to do that and read crappy YA
>>8016020
>complex characters
>provocative themes
>"adult" fiction
REEEEEEEE
>>8016032
When I was a kid “YA” didn't even exist. How old are you?
>>8016020
To be fair a lot of comics these days aren't exactly for kids. Seriously, go read some 80s comics and then look at the 90s and 00s. They get really dark and deal with death, sex, and drugs.
>>8016390
>They get really dark and deal with death, sex, and drugs.
The opinion of a modern adult everyone!
I'm curious, is this evidence that the proportion of people consuming highbrow or even middlebrow art has decreased, or is it possible that it's stayed the same? Maybe the adults reading YA and watching superhero movies are the type who would have been illiterate a few decades ago?
>>8016419
Comparing literature in college 30 years ago when my mom studied and based on word of mouth of professors and my own observations, very few people actually read anything intellectual because the studies have shifted towards a more female friendly studying method, meaning memorization over understanding.
I actually know a lot of people who do read at least something, but that's because we connect better, but on average most people are barely literate (this is a fact, law student, father lawyer, known lots of people in the business, it's unanimous that the basic grammar in legal practice has taken a head dive).
>>8016433
>meaning memorization over understanding
that seems like a more autistic friendly i.e. male friendly.
>>8016239
This. Is there attention just plot-focused, and their appreciation of the book based on "entertainment value"?
>>8016448
Male autism is more related to mathematics, physics, legal practice (men make better lawyers and judges on average), philosophy.
>>8016020
>Superheroes films
Yeah, I grew up with those characters and they make feel young again. Also, I have waited 20 years to see all those comic book superheroes battle each other on-screen. Its the closer to see them in real life and it feels like coming home.
>YA books
I can't waste my life reading this trash. Not even Harry Potter. This shit is for kids or retarded adults. Same goes to Twilight or those Road Runner or Star Wars books.
>>8016034
Hi Pepperidge
>>8016343
kek teen confirmed
If my peers take pride in reading YA, I'm going to take pride in reading VNs. Song of Saya is probably better than anything John Green or his wife's son ever wrote, anyway.
>>8016034
>theres a 73 years old dude on a forum made for romantics of japannesse anime posting shit about YA with me
>>8016467
sick double standard bro where you'd get it?
>>8016488
It's pasta you dip
>>8016031
you miss the part "take pride"
>>8016034
hello oldtimer.
>>8016491
Well, I didnt grow up with YA books, so I dont have any nostalgia for that crap
>>8016239
Typically https://youtu.be/Zuxm4B__aVI
- "I enjoyed it" The question of whether you enjoy something or not only matters in the entertainement field. You shouldn't enjoy L'Histoire de l'oeil, it was not made to be enjoyable but for "higher" reasons (I know it's vague but trying to describe these "higher reasons" would be writing a essay on the point of litterature itself, which I'm not capable and which would be ridiculous in a 4chan post.
- "Story of the eye is about x ; in the book this and that happens". Art is not about its object, it's not the things described that matters, it's what's behind. When Cézanne draws an apple, you shouldn't really care about the apple.
- "classic" Calling a book a "classic" is disconecting it from immanence, as if it didn't concern us anymore and thus making it harmless and pointless.
Basicaly they are missing the point. They read it, "enjoy it" and that's all.
There probably is a lot more to say about this but I hope you get what I meant.
>>8016618
>"I enjoyed it" The question of whether you enjoy something or not only matters in the entertainement field. You shouldn't enjoy L'Histoire de l'oeil, it was not made to be enjoyable but for "higher" reasons
isn't it a book about inserting eggs into vagina and fellating a cleric?
i mean if you fap to it i would hardly call it higher reasons
>>8016182
And he was right, culture was being dumbed down and continues to be dumbed down.
Back in his day high culture was theatre, going to the gym and discussing the nature of the world. A thousand years later it was going to church and singing songs. Today it's going to the club and getting a STD.
>tearing down frivolous entertainment
>by posting on 4chan
Fucking autists.
>>8016618
Nah, enjoyment is pretty much all there is in literature.
>>8016633
That's precisely what I said, if you view it as a book "about inserting eggs into vagina and fellating a cleric" you're missing the point.
>>8016647
those who make reviews about it usually don't have the courage to say that's how they see the book
>>8016231
I imagine this would be solved if the average english/literature teacher didn't suck.
I'm thinking back to high-school, a perfect time to start teaching deep reading, and I'm realizing no one actually taught us anything profound at all. Our assignments just consisted of things like, recount the basic plot, or answering "what's the moral of the story?" and this was for supposed AP classes.
We did write basic essays on literature, but all that did was teach students how to use sparknotes.
>>8016672
>implying that one can teach "profundity"
holy kek
This is how you end up meme'd, btw.
>>8016343
Not the guy you asked but I'm 18.
>>8016069
crime and punishment is just YA for idealist traditionalist fedoras like yourself hahahaha
>>8016618
>"when the narrator is just talking about his own experience, that's where it gets very boring"
Huh I guess I understand now
>>8016475
It is, really.
>>8016034
For those out of the loop: this is bait and pasta
Seriously, the amount of replies this got is pathetic. Lurk more faggots.
>>8016034
He's right
>>8016792
>everything is bait and pasta
>hurr durr everyone who replies to a thread is a NEWFAGGOT
Who the fuck cares? If we followed your advice the board would be dead because we already know everything so there's nothing to be discussed.
>>8016637
>attempting to tear down frivolous discussion
>on 4chan
Who's the autist here?
>>8016120
There is a slight nuance in his argument, which means that it isn't internally contradicting. He is saying that people that read literature aren't avoiding entertainment, because the bestsellers they could read, instead of literature, appear boring to them.
>>8016819
>cites my willful engagement in frivolous entertainment
>as evidence that I'm against frivolous entertainment
Try harder, kike.
>>8016020
They don't take pride in it. They just enjoy it. That's the big difference between them and you, they have nothing to prove.
>>8016433
It is a sad state of affairs, anon. I truly believe that our culture is degenerating.
>>8016636
You will be called a fedora, but you're right. Culture is degenerating because of three things: globalization, consumerism and a breakdown of attention span caused by consumer electronics
>>8016813
Not my point; I was saying that one shouldn't reply to CERTAIN posts, that pasta being one of them. It is part of the old internet adage: don't feed the trolls.
>>8016844
>They don't take pride in it
You're wrong about this though.
>>8016107
That's what I thought. At the very least they aren't exactly wrong. There isn't an enormous gulf of talent between Dan Brown and John Green.
>>8016048
You're correct.
>>8016121
>implying there isn't a wealth of Westerns with high cinematic thus artistic value
>implying any YA is better than a Simenon or Indridason.
>>8016844
Can you be any more butthurt over nothing? Stop being an autist, go read a real book.
modern trends revolve around continuous self affirmation instead of actually being criticial of anything, especially themselves
>>8016433
Most of the tests I took under female professors were essay/writing oriented, which I would say favors understanding of topic over pure memorization.
>>8016020
my sister reads them, but she's a HS librarian.
>>8016390
and yet 80's comics are better reads even with having self-imposed rules regarding content.
>>8016859
What are you on about, you fucking retard? That pasta wasn't a troll. It was directly related to the question in the OP. I think you need to go back to r/books.
>>8016343
I'm 25. I guess I considered myself a kid until I was 18, and I know there was YA around before 2008. Stuff like Artemis Fowl and Harry Potter are YA, right?
>>8016343
isn't Judy Blume YA?
The truly offensive thing about YA books is that normies hold them to be in the same category of media as literature when in reality they are television put to paper. This allows them to feel superior to those who merely watch television and this causes them to indulge in a sort of false consciousness where their opinions on literature are meritorious despite them only having read Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, a few Stephen King books and a couple of novels that their favorite movies were based on, after watching the movies.
In this false consciousness driven sense of identity they shape, I would argue malform, the literary community, they malform it into conformance with the tropes of lesser forms of entertainment, rendering the entire medium more barren.
The rich soils from whence great works once rose like trees seeking to touch the stars have become denuded. The fruits of these trees are removed from the ecosystem and fed to cattle in the cinema, the disgusting sludge produced by these cattle is then flung back into the forests of literature. It is a form of fertilizer but a toxic form which will eventually poison the very soil which the cattle require for the fruits that sustain them.
There was room for bad books in literature in the old days, Nietzsche considered them a way to contain the plebs from tainting the well of hochkultur. But the containment has been breached, with new ways to consume media the wall between good books and bad books has fallen to pieces. In the same way that Europeans began to understand themselves differently as they discovered the various races of the world, we understand literature differently knowing all of the other, newer ways to express artistic sentiment. And this is, from my perspective, something that will denigrate the form.
>>8017300
>YA books in reality are television put to paper.
this is what happens when educators scrambled to increase literacy and reading rates
>>8016020
Teenagers and Young Adults (pre-adults) like to think they are different, unique and better than those around them. When real adults do thing the pre-adults associate with not being adult, the pre-adults lash out because they don't understand. They believe life is a ladder system whereby you simply increase your greatness with age, and so any adult who enjoys something the pre-adult considers "low tier" and beneath someone their age is held in contempt. The problem is you have people too young to know telling people old enough to know how to live life. Pathetic really but we all did it too when we were kids so its just normal growing up stuff really.
>>8017300
>lesser forms of entertainment
No such thing, by definition.
>>8016034
rubbin' my cock right now...
>>8017320
Tbh I don't mind that if that's the real impetus. Like if it's people who have or would have had a learning disability being better educated and not illiterate and consuming (allbeit shit) literature, then great. But the not even erosion but exclusion and snobbery against "high culture" I don't like.
I think the problem is really that the stupidest people within the intelligent classes find non-ya too difficult. As education for those with impediments has improved, the number at this level of intelligence who are also able to read okay has grown. As a kind of second prong to this, those that otherwise would have moved on to high culture type shit have found access to higher education restricted and/or of poor quality, and that the general exposure to high culture is generally less because of the flood and raising up of stuff like YA. So it's like the bell curve has skewed right a bit.
>>8017332
What definition do you think you're using?
>>8017332
are you including doggerel and lad mags?
>>8017512
>continually growing emphasis on math and science
continually growing emphasis on math and science JOBS
need you need to have strong reading comprehension first
I agree, a ctrl-f bot will replace many reading jobs
>>8016852
Explain globalization to me. It seems like a bogeyman.
>>8016052
Reading is hard. Harry Potter is fun + easy.
Moby dick is fun but its challenging in a degree HP is not. People want simple fun and they normally don't expect a challenge when looking for entretainment. It tires them and, when they don't understand something, they feel stupid and angry. You need a curious and active nature to read.
That's all there is.
>>8017578
At one time, a commercial work was considered successful if it appealed to X consumer. If enough X consumers purchased the work, the creator of that work could fund further commercial works in the same niche. Not as many books were sold as today, but there was a great variety of thought because of the decentralized nature of publishing. That's how it was before globalization.
Now, a commercial work to be considered successful often must appeal to X, Y, and Z consumers. X consumer is the same as always, but Y consumer doesn't like sex in their books, and Z consumer doesn't believe Tibet should be considered an independent country. If you don't appeal to all three consumers, someone else will, and that someone will eventually drive you out of business. Do you therefore compromise and remove all sex and mentions of Tibet from the work?
These elements might seem meaningless - until K consumer asks your publishing house/film studio not to include any females in your next work as they are part of an influential gender-realist lobby known for many successful boycotts, then J consumer says they are prepared to tell their 50,000,000 Facebook followers to boycott your work unless you include at least 2 people of Han descent.
In other words, globalization is a proxy for censorship as creators do their best to prevent any consumer offense from risking their livelihood.
>>8016883
I don't think they go full "pride mode" until someone says its retarded to read YA or whatever. They are not defending YA, they are defending themselves. Normies can't care less for what they read or consume as art forms.
>>8017780
The ones who do are autismos tho
>>8017211
I won't let your insight go unrecognized, anon.
>>8017707
>Reading is hard. Harry Potter is fun + easy.
That's like saying "Watching 'The Godfather' is hard. Watching 'Barney & Friends' is fun + easy".
If that's true for you, you are either a small child or mentally disabled.
>>8016069
>Look at the recent crop of political figures in the United States, they appear very influenced by something like Guardians of The Galaxy.
I haven’t read “The Waste Land” for a year, and I never did bother to check all the footnotes. But I will hazard these statements—Eliot contains the same ecstatic vision which runs from Münzer to Yeats. However, he retains a grounding in the social reality/order of his time.
Facing what he perceives as a choice between ecstatic chaos and lifeless mechanistic order, he accedes to maintaining a separation of asexual purity and brutal sexual reality. And he wears a stoical face before this. Read his essay on Tradition and the Individual Talent, as well as Four Quartets, when he’s less concerned with depicting moribund Europe, to catch a sense of what I speak.
Remember how I said there’s a certain kind of conservatism which I respect more than bourgeois liberalism—Eliot is of this type. Of course, the dichotomy he maintains is reactionary, but it’s due to a deep fatalism, not ignorance. (Counter him with Yeats or Pound, who, arising from the same milieu, opted to support Hitler and Mussolini.)
And this fatalism is born out of the relation between fertility and death, which I touched on in my last letter—life feeds on itself. A fatalism I share with the western tradition at times. You seem surprised at Eliot’s irreconcilable ambivalence; don’t you share this ambivalence yourself, Alex?Yes I would agree that this is a particularly bad reading
>>8016618
'classic' is the most poorly used word in the English language.
>>8017228
>plot, plot, & more plot
jesus
>>8016475
>Song of Saya
>reads VNs in English
>takes pride in anything
>>8018063
>godfather
>hard to watch
atleast use solaris or women in the dunes.
>>8018063
That was exactly my point dumb faget.
>>8017300
Name your favorite book.
Now imagine Hollywood makes into a blockbuster.
I want this to happen to everything you ever loved.
>>8016020
>complexer
>>8018286
The whole fucking point is that it is NOT hard to watch, you imbecile.
>>8018431
So which are you - a small child or mentally disabled?
>>8016813
>>8017248
http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/09/24/dumbing_down_american_readers/
the person who wrote that is harold bloom, who I highly doubt reads /lit/
people are responding to the quote as if it's a new personally expressed thought by someone in the thread, when it's not
everything is not bait and pasta, but this certainly is, and commenting on its supposed author's life is objectively a waste of time
do you have a reason to defend these existing?
>>8016148 >>8016202 >>8016471 >>8016488 >>8016499
this is not fresh worthwhile discussion, it's 5/310ths of a bump limit gone (7/310, including your hot air)
>I think you need to go back to r/books.
fuck off, in 4 lines you loudly said nothing and extrapolated uselessly to emptiness, why are you so assured of your holy right to post here?
>>8018440
>Cthulhu Mythos
Series of movies that depict investigators, college students, profesors and federal agents fighting eldritch abominations and cultist with powers. All those movies are interconnected in some way.
FUND IT.
People went crazy when they saw a glimpse of the Yellow King on True Detective. This shit has potential. Also, it doesnt have any copyright so I dont understand why it hasnt been filmed yet.
>>8016020
> take pride
Have you not looked around at what's happening.
People are being told to take pride in having AIDS or being born with down syndrome.
Liking media made for teens is pretty tame by comparison.
>>8017270
It was children literature, and flagged accordingly. It became “YA” because the readers grew older along the series. There wasn't a single bookshop that considered it anything but children book back then.
>>8017300
>from whence
>>8018579
It should be a series on HBO/Showtime/etc. If they can finance dark moody shit like The Knick and Penny Dreadful, why not Lovecraft.
>>8016032
Same. I actually thought that all fiction was boring shit because of all the YA.
I read non-fiction like an autist until reading non-fiction philosophy started to get me to read fiction philosophy.
>>8018617
Shakespeare and Twain both used from whence in their works
>>8016020
I watch Superhero movies as an excuse to go out with my friends and family.
>>8018656
It doesn't make it legitimate, it's an error. “Whence” already contains “from”.
>>8018656
Twain wrote corncobby, nigger-rigged prose.
>>8018440
It would be hilarious to see Hollywood try to take on Ecce Homo, it would bomb horribly. Truly patrician material is immune to Hollywoodization. I do not understand your angst though, are you upset at my assertion that YA novels are slightly wordier television/movie scripts? There's a reason that people write shit like this nowadays, it's because you get a better shot at the movie deal when your dumbed down dreck of a book is easily translatable to the silver screen/HBO.
>>8018666
>MY OPINIONS ARE LAW WHEN IT COMES TO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE!
Our language has no authoritative governing body, your opinion is no better than mine, and probably significantly less good than that of the many great authors who have chosen to use from whence in their prose.
>>8018579
>federal agents fighting eldritch abominations and cultist with powers
>FUND IT
X files has been rebooted several times, anon
>>8018579
>Yellow King on True Detective
yellow king x sherlock holmes slash?
>>8018593
I think shame is a more fertile emotion, and a complex mix of pride and shame leads to an artistic pinnacle because the ambiguity of the impulses leads to strain which can be explored in profound ways.
Think about how many poets were Catholics, on and off, fighting drug addiction and homosexuality.
Lionel Pivot Johnson's "Dark Angel" is frankly more interesting than Gaga's "Born This Way"
>>8016020
i dont know, i think a lot of adults are just proud to have read an entire book these days. My mom's been reading one for about 4 months.
>>8018845
Agreed. My favourite poets are all Catholics struggling with their vices.
>>8018845
>"The Dark Angel" also served as one of the influences for the Dark Angels chapter of Space Marines in the Warhammer 40,000 fictional universe.
Man what a legacy
>>8018859
>you will never write something so grimdark that it will serve the emprah
>>8018440
>Finnegans Wake
It's actually not that bad of a movie.
>>8018440
I'd watch the shit out of a (direct) adaptation of Heart of Darkness if it had a sensible director at the helm.
>>8019021
Oh, and here it is in case anyone wants to watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cibQA_LNe9s
>>8018871
>not composing Trump's coronation march between shitposts
Get your shit together
>>8019021
"The musicality of it," somebody would say, and I'd say, "Oh God, yes, it's like Beethoven."
>>8019026
>I'd watch the shit out of a (direct) adaptation of Heart of Darkness if it had a sensible director at the helm.
a half naked girl, his intended, who waits for her prince at a window in a murky european city, her prince meantime falls in love with an even more half naked female warrior of the noble tribe which brings him the ivory...
>>8016020
It's almost like they want people to buy their books or something.
>>8018609
There's a point to that. I remember being pretty confused at the new teen section, and I'm just eighteen. But I might just have been a dumb (younger) teenager.
Because people can enjoy whatever form of media they want with the money they earn. Listen to yourself.
>>8016020
What a mature 22 year old you are.
>>8016118
Nigger the whole point of airport novels is that they're better than literally nothing.Personally, I always got a notepad and drew. Before smartphones, and portable consoles.
>>8017300
>complains about a false sense of identity
>has a false sense of identity
you could also just stop caring about what other people like
>>8016133
It's certainly true that not all forms of reading material are equal, but this is *only* true in the same way not all birds are equal. Eagles are not crows are not kites are not tits. It would be stupid to compare them.
There is nothing wrong with instant gratification. Literature, to me at least, gives me instant gratification.
>Spooks &c
>>8016636
You're comparing the culture of the ancient ruling, rich elites to the cherry-picked culture of the modern lower-classes. You are retarded.
>>8016672
That's not what my school did at all, and people round here are just the same as anywhere else.
>>8016672
>and this was for supposed AP classes.
really? what year? I remember grinding out rhetorical analysis after rhetorical analysis in 09
>>8016071
Which in particular? I've occasionally opened an Adorno book and usually find him nearly incomprehensible (almost always because his references are above my head). I do like crochety old fucks who complain about the death of culture though.
>>8017184
Can you be any more butthurt over nothing? Stop being an autist, go read a real book.
>>8016883
Why do you care whether they take pride in it or not?
>>8020145
t. 25 year old
