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You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
You are currently reading a thread in /lit/ - Literature
Which literary characters best exemplify the concept of the Ubermensch?
>>8015520
Raskolnikov
Conan the Cimmerian
>>8015520
dr manhattan or tom bombadil?
Leto II
Paul was the little Ubermensch that couldn't while Leto saw the golden path and wasn't a little bitch about it.
>>8015590
>Leto II
that guy who died falling into a river? pshaw
Obvious answer is Manfred.
>>8015595
His plans were complete anyways. His entire idea was to breed a new kind of man who was invisible to prescience, would come to the conclusion that Leto was an evil tyrant and had to be destroyed and would ultimately do it.
Getting caught was part of his plan from the start. He saw everything except the particulars of his death, though he knew he must die for his dream to live. And he accepted it. Pure Amor Fati, zero resentment, created his own values, Leto II was Ubermensch as fuck.
john nr wayne
>>8015523
>this is what Christcucks actually believe
John Galt
severian :^)
Superman.
Oblomov
>>8015520
Iago.
>>8015520
Mohammad
>>8015520
Jesus.
>>8015523
Either trolling or completely misunderstood c&p
>>8015590
>>8015604
Interesting and surprisingly good answer. I only read god emperor in high school and remember being taken aback by the change in tone from the earlier books. Did you finish the series? I read one further book (can't remember the name) but was disappointed and never reached Chapterhouse.
Personally my vote goes for the Count of Monte Cristo. Totally reforms himself in his own vision of the ideal man, conquers the self for a higher purpose, in which he also conquers all external opposition, and attains the greatest possible heights of near-divine judgment, checked only by his innate and insuperable weaknesses as a non-omniscient mortal.
VIRGIL????????????????
Captain Ahab
>>8015671
Confirmed for never having read the Bible.
>>8015671
Christ's followers shitfucked the Ottomans back to the fucking stoneage though.
>>8015520
why do people take this guy's ideas about the 'ubermensch' seriously when he was just a weak little nerd with terrible eyesight, hunched over in a cold room writing all day? its hard for me to take a writer seriously when they're so pathetic
>>8015523
>Raskolnikov
Early in the book he is, very much so; by the end of the book he has rejected the concept of the ubermensch.
Buddha
Obvious answer is Raskolnikov. Smug litizens won't like that answer because he's too well known. He explicitly embodies the concept of the uebermensch, it's the entire point of his character.
He is an unsuccessful not because he doesn't exemplify the concept but rather because the concept is untenable, so in that sense he more perfectly exemplifies the concept than whatever fanciful porn-addicted 4chan sociopaths you are dreaming up as the real deal or w/e.
>>8016558
lol
>>8016260
>you're talking about him a century after his death on a basket weaving forum
>he's this powerful
>>8016609
Quite uebermenschian of you my friend, truly.
me desu
read my diary, I'm the coolest
>>8016262
>>8016558
How did you guys get this from c&p? I absolutely disagree with you both. Rodya doesn't reject the concept: it rejects him; he admits he is ineligible to rank among the "ubermensch."
And the manifestation of the ubermensch is not "untenable" but rather really fucking rare. How can you call it untenable when he specifically cites Napoleon as an example? The whole point of his introspection is that even though he maintains his belief that the masses are nothing more than a breeding ground for great men, he isn't one of those men, and is rather a, what was it, a flea? He finds he isn't special and then fails to absolve himself of the guilt of the crime that served as his test for greatness, and that haunting sin is what compels him to turn to God for forgiveness.
>>8016752
>muh ultra-rare uebermensch holo
Raskolnikov is mentally ill dude. And so is everyone who thinks in terms of uebermensch vs nonuebermensch. He cites Napoleon as his SYMBOL, so what? I cite Big Bird, what's the difference?
So, why wasn't he an uebermensch? Did he not try hard enough? He tested it with more conviction than anyone. He ontologically just isn't one? What would that even mean? His genes? So you can scientifically predict who is and isn't a "great man?" His soul?
He is meme'd the fuck out. The Uebermensch is an abstraction. It doesn't exist. If you got to the end and thought "ah...so Rodya wasn't an uebermensch like Napoleon was" then you're retarded and just as meme'd as he is.
>>8015753
Yes, unfortunately I finished the series. 5/6 are okay, but they're missing a real conclusion. 7/8 were written by his kid and KJA (a young adult book author) and they are fucking filth.
Frank originally wanted to finish Dune up with one last book after Chapterhouse that covered the return of thinking machines. The entire point of the books after 4 was watching Leto's golden path progress, and the path was designed in a way that would
1. scatter the humans to prevent their extermination
2. allow a path to reconciliation with the machines
Instead of doing this tactfully, they made gholas of all of the original book characters, including Leto II who turned into a sandworm and attacked the machine planet like a space monster. Then Duncan Idaho becomes a super sayian Kwizatz Haderach II and merges humanity with the machines. Like the machines are introduced and explained into defeat in maybe 60 or 70 pages. The great menace that necessitated the golden path was utterly castrated, the honored matres did far more damage than what they were running from.
But Leto II was still the purest Ubermensch. Shit, he even knows that Hwi is a trap meant to appeal to his few remaining shreds of humanity but he says fuck it, amor fati and goes to marry her anyways. He gave Siona control of his most fanatically devoted fishspeaker knowing that she would follow any order Siona, who he knew wanted to destroy him, would give her.
You could see it as a weakness, since his experiment was one generation short (he needed to breed Siona with Idaho), but Siona and Idaho hated each other until they found common ground in understanding the necessity to kill Leto. Leto isn't even mad at all when they come to him as he lay dying, he tells them where his secret drug stash is and gives them his empire. In the end Idaho and Siona end up having a big family of people invisible to prescience.
>>8016861
Stfu with your genre fiction shit
>>8015520
Ubermensch doesn't work like that. He is a figure after man overcomes what he calls today "morality." Thus the over man does not exist in the past. If you meant higher man, however, that certainly exists.
Aeneas
Sigurd
Manfred
Pontius Pilate
Achilles
Odysseus
Agamemnon
Dolokhov
Goethe himself
Napoleon himself
Cesare Borgia himself
Washington himself
Patton himself
>>8015520
faust
>>8016829
>Rodya being insane means everything he says is wrong
The untermensch realization was far from the end of the book; most of Rodya's inner turmoil comes after at least the first stages of his acceptance of failure.
It's also ironic that you're scorning what you assume was my concluding thought when your pointed questions can all be answered directly from the text. If you didn't understand why Rodya failed, you missed the entire commentary on human nature and accordingly failed to see the setup for Dostoevsky's redemption through God. And none of that commentary or the events to which it builds depends on whether you think the ubermensch idea is a mere abstraction (like you said), or is "really fucking rare" (like I said), to the point that it may as well be an abstraction. The near infinite odds against the manifestation of the theory are exactly part of Rodya's point. He's testing himself againsg the odds of "many thousands of millions of people on earth" out of whom maybe one will be a "fulfiller of mankind." Parallel this with the human failure to measure up to Christ and you start to see where Dostoevsky's divind redemption comes into play.
>>8016861
Interesting, thanks. Book 4/5 went over my head as I read as a teen, but that vaguely makes sense; I'll have to revisit the series at least for nostalgia's sake. Mostly all I remember about 4 is the sequence of Idahos, and all I remember about 5 is the underground rooms/palace/hideout.
>>8016911
>He is a figure after man overcomes what he calls today "morality."
So, basically, tumblr?
I signed up for an ubermensch overlord future and all I got was this dyed-hair castrato!
Diogenes
Nietzsche already gave the examples of Socrates, Jesus and Napoleon.
Achilles, duh
>>8017028
>ugly faggot using dialectics out of resentment
>overman
Yeah sure thing kiddo
The actual answer is Wolf Larsen ofc
>>8016911
the idea that ubersmensch refers only to those who overcome our CURRENT morality seems like a fallacy
surely it should apply to all those who overcome their era's or context's morality
>>8016256
Yeah and where is Constantinople now huh.
>>8016260
You really think that being an ubermensche would mean being what like a fucking body builder or something? Just because he was often sick, it does not diminish his ideas.
Elliot Rodger.
>>8017508
you misread nietzsche if you think his comments on dialectics in Twilight were in defense of the Athenians.
The Masketta Man.
