Why aren't you a Roman Catholic, /lit/?
Also, Roman Catholic, bros. What are you reading?
>>7988279
>believing in an omniscient/omnipotent deity
Currently reading The Fifth Head of Cerberus by the Wolfester.
>>7988279
Because I'm Orthodox
>>7988309
Just finished an O'Connor short-story binge, shit was pretty good. Ever notice how Catholics are like the only religious people who allow their faith to be present in their art rather than make their art about their faith. We are truly the GOAT religion.
Anyway,, other catholic writer suggestions?
>>7988995
Graham Greene is a pretty based Anglo-Catholic. Evelyn Waugh is another.
>>7988995
>their faith to be present in their art rather than make their art about their faith
what do you mean by this? can you give examples?
>>7988279
Because the Christian conception of God is laughable
>>7988279
Too much contradiction to justify giving it special treatment compared to other faiths
>>7989139
elaborate
>>7988279
Because I'm Protestant
>>7988279
I'm not, but I'm reading a lot of catholic writers now (St. Anselm, Shusaku Endo) and loving it. I'm a deist, but christianity is beautiful, I gotta say.
>>7989150
As long as you're not Calvinist it's ok.
>>7988279
because i'm a spiritual humanist
>>7988279
Because I was raised Catholic and went to catholic schools all my life. That really takes away from the mystique of it all and all you are left is rules and power and empty ritual nobody seems able to explain. Besides, I had close calls with some pervy priests, they do exist
I pray to God and God grants me victory on the face of battle. Every time I pray to God God grants me my wish, I'm reading The Illiad, Snow Falling on Cedars, and Logico Tracatus Philsophicus
Fallen away Catholic. It's harder for me to imagine converting to another religion than it is to return to the Church. Nonetheless, I find the Church rather stupid and cannot imagine Christ returning to earth and being pleased with all that rubbish.
>>7988279
Reading Hilaire Belloc right now, his style is in itself a big subtle fuck you to everyone who disagrees with him. It has a woven it "fuck off you protestant atheist faggot" message in the prose and historical dialectic.
Read 2 Shusaku Endos this year, was blown away by him. Waiting for Scorsese to make the movie to get people to translate his other works.
Flannery O'Connor is probably the best short story writer ever. Her skill at crafting characters is unparalleled.
Graham Greene was a bit of a disappointment because he wrote about bored British annoyed by brown people.
Chesterton is really fun and has a truly unique style.
Will read some more Ratzinger Edward Feser too.
Preparing myself to start a 1000 page selected writings of Aquinas, have Metaphysics and De Amima left for preparation.
Gene Wolfe is still one of the most haunting writers out there, reading In Greens Jungles right now.
>>7989026
>Graham Greene
muh nigger
>>7989164
Catholic schools haven't been Catholic for ages
>>7989164
For me having a teacher with a very critical understanding of theology was helpful and important.
They weren't content to just relay doctrine but they sought to explain and justify it.
>>7989635
Here all school have religion class and most attend and it's now more focused on other religions that basically don't exist here than on explaining or even stating Catholic doctrines. It's really sad. It's a joke of a class.
Currently reading KJV Bible and St. Augustine's Confessions.
>>7989330
>Fallen away Catholic. It's harder for me to imagine converting to another religion than it is to return to the Church. Nonetheless, I find the Church rather stupid and cannot imagine Christ returning to earth and being pleased with all that rubbish.
This probably describes me pretty well, though I hate to admit it. I believe in God and the power of prayer, and I love the Pope and Cathedrals and Catholic theology, art, philosophers, novelists, even that don't pertain to the faith but have that Catholic-ness to them. It's probably the religion I closest identify to but I can just not buy into some of the bullshit.
Anybody read The Road? I'm like half way through it, and it's the most depressing thing I've ever read!!! So good though...
>>7988279
I don't believe in Paganism
>>7988298
>>7989668
Catholicism is rooted and founded on Paganism, and revels in it to strengthen an already weak connection to יהוה
The fact that Jesus The Christ is worshipped in Churches, where Sol Invictus leers behind his back - veneration of Sumerian astrological markers covered over with a thin veneer of Ecclesial officiality, pure absurdity.
>>7988279
I was born and reared a catholic, turned my back on it when I reached a certain age, I was baptized, took communion and confirmed first though. It's on the way out anyway
http://www.independent.ie/life/vanishing-catholic-church-seeks-salvation-can-it-reinvigorate-itself-34237641.html
>>7989687
What retardation are you speaking of?
>>7989620
I went to a Catholic school in England and I spent three years learning about Islam and Judaism. I'm constantly surprised by how little Catholicism features on a Catholic school syllabus.
>>7988279
Catholic and currently reading Metamorphoses. Considering dropping it due to what appears to be a pretty shitty translation by Charles Martin.
>>7989705
It seems to me that with the New theology and the Vatican2 most of the intellectual vigor and tradition of learning slowly faded away from Catholic institutions.
Which is really sad, I'm quite disappointed how Catholics nowadays have little interest in understanding their own faith on a deeper level. Benedict was trying to revive it, but Francis is back to protestantisation of method and now even doctrine with de facto affirmation of relativity of God's laws.
>>7989721
My whole family is Catholic and yet only my brother and I have shown any real interest in Catholic theology. In fact, most of my family, outside of practice, have very little understanding of the functioning of the Catholic Church. It's pretty sad to see, really.
Having said that, I am looking for literature that explores Catholic theology and doctrines, if you have any recommendations?
>>7989741
I don't mind the lack of interest in all people, assuming they are humble enough to accept it in its fullness. It's like that in rural areas where some of my relatives live. Priests are respected and people don't make up their own excuses for divorce, adultery and just about everything and the priests there are actually more knowledgeable than those in urban areas. It's the lack of understanding with educated people who have the chance and the time to get it.
Did you read pope Benedict? His Jesus of Nazareth trilogy and just about everything else is a great starting point.
>>7988279
how can anyone believe that the Catholic Church is the true path towards God and that Christ is real, someone explain
>>7989762
No one can prove anything without axioms and you pick certain ones and go from there. Then you assess the systems comparatively and realize that the Catholic worldview is the only complete one and is both in the practical and the reason superior to everything else.
>>7989761
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll be sure to check them out. And it's more to do with the fact that it just seems odd to me to follow something without an understanding of it, but then again, that's just my interpretation of things.
>>7989781
Most people do that regardless of worldview. Most don't have the time or capacity to understand it. It's just the natural way of things which is why we have clergy in the first place.
Now on another note Christ died for plebs too so a deeper theological understanding as a necessity would just make it into something closer to Platonism than to a all encompassing church.
>>7989791
Yeah, I never really looked at it that way. Fair play.
>want to join the Church
>in aloving, longterm gay relationshipwhich has been a huge source of personal growth and love
>could never possibly leave it no matter how strongly I believe
>can't accept the terrible hermeneutic arguments of liberals
feels bad man
>>7990079
Sounds pretty hard, but at the same time pretty disgusting.
>>7988279
But I am.
FSSP, yet
>>7990079
Disordered thinking....
>>7990079
Just stop the dicksucking and ass fucking and you'll be alright, it's not like heterosexuality makes it okay to have sex for pleasure either.
>>7990116
Are you a seminary?
Hey Catholics, I need help with a religious crisis.
>tfw me
>raised in rational, agnostic upbringing, but went to catholic high school
>sort of believed when I was very young but completely grew out of it, went through edgy fedora phase
>later became jaded and uninterested in religion
>be me now
>shit things in life out of my control
>try meditation, it's a spook
>one day, while thinking about God, realise how deep and comforting faith is
>randomly say an our father one day, feel deep sense of consolation and contentment
I still can't rationally believe in God, but I'm finding such a deep and powerful sense of contentment in prayer and finally have a solid bed of moral conviction on which to live my life.
Should I pull a Kierkegaard and commit a leap of faith? Is this what religion's all about?
Legitimately thinking of reading the New Testament sometime soon, whats the easiest way to go about this?
>>7990192
No, I can't say it is some sort of a leap, at least not for me. You can say that rationally every theory of knowledge is either axiomatic, circular or an infinite regress and this way you just pick a few axioms (God existing isn't even one, it's the God is a person and takes part in our lives) and work from there.
I've recommended it before in this thread, but Jesus of Nazareth by pope Benedict XVI. is really great as a supplementary reading for the New Testament. I'd say get a Ignatius Press annoted Bible and those three and start reading.
As far as prayer goes I'm a sucker for (don't know the English word) kneeling before the Eucharist after mass when they have it. It's a very strong meditative experience.
Also Rosary.
>>7990192
You can read the NT cover-to-cover desu.
There are other guides online that will suggest different ways to read it, if you prefer.
I have this one and I enjoy it:
>http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Study-Bible-Donald-Senior/dp/0195297768?tag=viglink125845-20
>>7990236
Not yet.
I did read Louis Lallemant, John of the Cross and Thomas Merton and every one of those was a solid read.
>>7989704
He's right, go read up your history.
>>7989026
Muriel Spark is another.
>>7990260
Reading it now. Which is exactly why it sounds like uneducated protestant blabber.
So how do you Catholics reconcile the fact that the Catholic Church is literally the Whore of Babylon?
>>7990294
By knowing history, theology and philosophy of course.
>>7988298
*tips fedora*
>>7989159
nice meme
>>7988279
>>7988279
I have no need of it. My world view and outlook is sufficient, adheres to reason and my humanity, and I don't have to accept anything that I personally experience to be discordant with my ideas.
I also don't like organized thought in the sense that I'm a part of a system where everyone thinks the same way, I think it discourages creativity, disagreement, and individuality in favor of dogma. Of course there are systems where we can supress insividuality for a greater good, but I think this can be done outside of the church. Like Gandhi for example.
believing in God is dumb and anyone who does is crazy in the coconut
I'm jew and I want to convert, is catholicism the best option? Pls, explain me why.
I think that I'd like to get into Christianity, but I can't stop thinking how it's a mix of some other religions, and how much it has changed from the beginning. also I'm not sure what to think about the Church, because many of priests were just hungry for power and money, and I'm not sure what to think about the current state of the Church.
Could anyone write about those issues, no matter what your view on those issues is? I'd really appreciate it.
Last book that I could call christian was The Land of Ulro by Czesław Miłosz and it was really interesting, although it was about the ideas of Swedenborg and Oscar Milosz, and one could probably call them heretics. It was also about Gombrowicz and Mickiewicz. You can learn a lot about Miłosz's philosophy from that book.
>If God were within the spatio-temporal realm of being, he would be a changing God
>If God is perfect he cannot change
>Therefore God is not within the realm of Being and is beyond Being
>if god is beyond Being then nothing we say about him will capture his essence
>Therefore if there is a God nothing can be said about him
>Therefore fuck Catholicism
>>7988279
>grow up in boston
>altar boy, consider the priest hood
>get out of class, grab boston globe
>read about sex scandal for days
>research
>more and more stuff comes out
So for me:
1. The sex scandal as handled by the hierarchy for me disproves their stated position as the church and vicar of Christ on Earth
2. Their behaviour over history has clearly rejected the teachings of Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount as discussed by Tolstoy
3. Doctrine has obviously evolved over time be Papal declaration and ecumenical council, not by revelation or scripture
4. Claiming any direct knowledge of God's needs, wants, desires is hubristic.
At this point I prefer my loosey-goosey ecumenical christian church mixed with readings of historical-critical works on the new testament, and trying to live to jesus' precepts, if not his exact words.
I will say that I love Belloc and Endo though
>>7989376
>Graham Greene was a bit of a disappointment because he wrote about bored British annoyed by brown people.
End of the Affair that is not
>>7990488
>Could anyone write about those issues, no matter what your view on those issues is? I'd really appreciate it.
Catholics have always known the faulty nature of men. Dante reserved a special place in hell for power hungry and licentious popes in his Inferno.
The church is much more than the building and its politics. Catholics are members of the Body of Christ. Catholics sometimes confuse the two.
Christianity is metaphysical religion and is sometimes hard for people to follow, so they rely on men to explain and guide.
I can dump some book recommendations if you like?
>>7990498
>ecumenical council
ecclesiastical council, muh bad
>>7990494
>If God were within the spatio-temporal realm of being, he would be a changing God
>thinking God gives a fuck about your simple logic
>>7990488
>but I can't stop thinking how it's a mix of some other religions
Which ones?
>>7990522
The trappings and ceremony definitely come from pre-christian roman rites
>>7990519
>Further proving my point that God can't be conceived by man
>>7990529
Are you talking about Mithras?
>>7990529
All Christian ideas are an extrapolation of Jewish rites and ceremonies.
You can talk about concurrency, but i wouldnt call them lifted.
The same way that the golden rules is known to diffrent cultures, so are the rites of sacrifice.
>>7990522
If you have more recommendations, I'd be grateful.
How do the Christians relate to the Old Testament?
>>7990522
Well, it has a lot of things from Judaism, and one may say that it's the same to Judaism that Mormonism is to Christianity. There are some similar things in Zoroastrianism, Sumerian and Egyptian mythology, I've heard and I'm not that sure about it since I don't really know anything on those issues.
>>7990416
>*tips yamaka*
>>7990503
I've read Heart of the Matter. I'd like to give him another chance, if anything because of Endo.
>>7990498
Yes, the doctrinal development is known to be a thing, only Orthodoxy denies it and Protestants pretend it isn't there. John Henry Newman with his Essay on Development of Christian Doctrine is essentially a definitive on it. Christian Doctrine has always developed, it isn't a new concept and it was accepted and seen as the life in the Church.
>>7990494
This is a severe misunderstanding of Aquinas on the most basic level.
>>7990596
>muh divine revelation
I'm not convinced Aquinas is ever able to overcome this.
>>7990577
>How do the Christians relate to the Old Testament?
If you read the Gospels, there are constant callbacks about the fulfillment of scripture (especially in John).
These include Daniels dream.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+7%3A13-14&version=ESV
> I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him;
> But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."
Understand why this would be blasphemy to Jews. 'I AM' is a statement that calls back to the words God spoke to Moses 'I AM THAT I AM'.
Isaiah:
> But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15,18-19):
> a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear....And the Lord said to me: I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him"
> Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, 'This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world'" (John 6:14).
> and one may say that it's the same to Judaism that Mormonism is to Christianity
There are no biblical passage which support Mormonism. Like Islam, they claim that the scriptures are corrupted.
Loke up the prophecies of the Old Testament and understand what Christ would have meant to Jewish converts.
>>7990618
He doesn't overcome it, it's central to his thought. It's not ariligious philosophy, it's philosophy centred around religion for religious people primarily.
>>7990624
Thanks!
>>7990577
>>7990624
Sorry for the confusing format of my reply.
Look up the rites of passover and how to connect to Christ.
> Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
> God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
>>7990635
Saying this like a broken parrot, but Jesus of Nazareth trilogy deals heavily with this, amongst other things.
>>7990635
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/view/christ-as-the-paschal-lamb
>>7990635
The videos on this channel are a good introduction and easy to understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adzc683Tbnw
>>7990664
His book is also a really good introduction to Catholicism, hence named as such.
>>7990165
Lay theologian
>>7990695
Thomist revival when?
>>7988995
Just about every great writer was Catholic, even if their work doesn't really show it.
Shakespeare, Dante, Joyce, Pynchon etc
All Catholics.
>>7990596
Read The Comedians or The Power and the Glory
I can't seem to get past Pascal's Wager.
I was raised Southern Baptist, which has a lot of fairly dumb readings of the Bible imo (Can't drink ever? What is Christ's first miracle?) but it did put the fear of hell into me.
I've been looking at Catholicism, but I worry I'm only interested because I like the ceremony of the services, the tradition, and the fact that the priests have to actually be educated, and that a lot of great artists have been Catholic.
How do I jump the hurdle? Should I even into Catholicism?
>>7990958
>I can't seem to get past Pascal's Wager.
Don't. It's not a very good method. It's there because he couldn't into real nikka theology and stepped back before the tidal wave of nominalism.
>I was raised Southern Baptist, which has a lot of fairly dumb readings of the Bible imo (Can't drink ever? What is Christ's first miracle?) but it did put the fear of hell into me.
It does, but all protestant churches do. For example I recently discussed with one why Mary is said to be sinless if it contradicts the bible explicitly while he doesn't affirm sanctity of marriage and real presence of Eucharist, both of which are mentioned over and over again explicitly.
>I've been looking at Catholicism, but I worry I'm only interested because I like the ceremony of the services, the tradition, and the fact that the priests have to actually be educated, and that a lot of great artists have been Catholic.
>How do I jump the hurdle? Should I even into Catholicism?
How deep do you want to go in? Just basic introduction, literature or hardcore theology?
>>7991171
I know you say don't to Pascal's Wager, but I'm not doing it because I'm some Pascal shill. The barrier for me is belief without just doing it because I'm afraid. Would "real nikka" theology help?
I guess start basic and get deeper from there. I understand some of the very basic things you can google and glen from a pleb lapsed Catholic, but not much more.
>>7991209
I'll say it again, but Jesus of Nazareth trilogy by pope Benedict is excellent as both introduction and advanced reading.
Confessions by st. Augustine, Orthodoxy and Everlasting Man by Chesterton are some I would recommend as into.
If you want to go hardcore, it's most of Plato and Aristotle for a philosophical background into City of God and some pretty large selected works by Aquinas.
Edward Feser is a contemporary philosopher and his Aquinas, Aristotle on Method and Metaphysics and Last Superstition may be interesting reads.
As far as why Catholic and not xy denomination John Henry Newman with Apologia Pro Vita Sua and Essay on Development of Christian Doctrine are highly recommended.
>>7988279
Lolita ;)
because aristotle's argument for teleology is nature is bad
>>7991441
Nah, it's just unpopular
>>7990290
Well you're misreading it.
>>7988279
An exorcist tells his story by Fr Gabriel Amorth
>>7990486
Catholicism and Orthodoxy will read the Torah in nearly the same way as Jews do, the laws and what not will be familiar; however, they will of course be understood through the existence of Christ. Many protestants don't read the Old Testament in the same way, largely rejecting the Jewish heritage of their religion. As for why you should pick it, that's all dependent upon the individual, I only suggest you do some reading. I started reading the Catholic Catechism, and other introductory texts, and then absolutely fell in love with what I was reading. The more I read, the more I loved. I'm sorry I can help more than than, perhaps you should visit a parish and speak to a priest?
>>7988279
Because it took you 400 years to admit Galileo
was right. Catholocism is beautiful in some
ways, but it has a big problem with dogma and
"""infallibility""".
>>7992493
*Catholicism
>>7992493
Galileo was an asshole, fuck him. Just because he was right doesn't mean he didn't deserve it.
>>7992493
this desu
>>7988279
Because when you don't know or understand something, you admit that you don't know or understand it, not pretend to know anyway and refuse to question it.
Because my ancestors fought and died for their god-given right to worship in austerity that would beggar a sadhu, and to believe that God doesn't just let you off with a few Hail Mary's for fiddling the neighbor kid.
>>7988279
I was for a while. Then I kind of drifted away. I want to join the Church again, however. Right now I'm about to read Augustine's City of God and maybe Aquinas' Summa after that (I heard it was long as shit though. Probably just going to read Anslem).
>>7988279
You've made your point romans, it's time to come home. just come on home
>>7990460
9/10 Kekked slightly
>>7992781
That is an orthodox church in Georgia seeley. It was built before the schism, so I guess it could be considered catholicish.
>>7992493
>Galileo was right
Galileo was never right and the critiques to his theories still stand, eg stellar parallax
>>7992758
With a shorter Summa you'll have about 2500 A4 pages.
Start with some simpler stuff that's more... Well not relevant, but directly applicable. And for those two you need to read the works of Plato and Aristotle.
John Henry Newman and Joseph Ratzinger are great for getting into and Confessions if you want Augustine.
>>7992781
Due to the nature of dogmatic councils the orthodox church can only accept the Catholic teachings and Catholic church cannot redact the later made official dogmas and teachings such as purgatory, Marian dogmas and papal infallibility.
