/lit/, what are your thoughts on stoicism?
>>7936531
mostly practiced by autists who think they can muh will themselves to normalcy
Coward man's Cynicism
Dull man's Epicureanism
>>7936556
>>7936547
what the fuck man. I'm going through stoic texts here trying to adopt them to literally will myself into normalcy. To be less bitter, cynical and pathetic and adopt a stoic approach to life.
what problems do you have with it?
>>7936531
Based, needs a partner philosophy though because it tells you more about what you shouldn't do to be a happy human being than what you should do.
Seneca is based.
You desire to LIVE "according to Nature"? Oh, you noble Stoics, what fraud of words! Imagine to yourselves a being like Nature, boundlessly extravagant, boundlessly indifferent, without purpose or consideration, without pity or justice, at once fruitful and barren and uncertain: imagine to yourselves INDIFFERENCE as a power--how COULD you live in accordance with such indifference? To live--is not that just endeavoring to be otherwise than this Nature? Is not living valuing, preferring, being unjust, being limited, endeavouring to be different? And granted that your imperative, "living according to Nature," means actually the same as "living according to life"--how could you do DIFFERENTLY? Why should you make a principle out of what you yourselves are, and must be? In reality, however, it is quite otherwise with you: while you pretend to read with rapture the canon of your law in Nature, you want something quite the contrary, you extraordinary stage-players and self-deluders! In your pride you wish to dictate your morals and ideals to Nature, to Nature herself, and to incorporate them therein; you insist that it shall be Nature "according to the Stoa," and would like everything to be made after your own image, as a vast, eternal glorification and generalism of Stoicism! With all your love for truth, you have forced yourselves so long, so persistently, and with such hypnotic rigidity to see Nature FALSELY, that is to say, Stoically, that you are no longer able to see it otherwise-- and to crown all, some unfathomable superciliousness gives you the Bedlamite hope that BECAUSE you are able to tyrannize over yourselves--Stoicism is self-tyranny--Nature will also allow herself to be tyrannized over: is not the Stoic a PART of Nature? . . . But this is an old and everlasting story: what happened in old times with the Stoics still happens today, as soon as ever a philosophy begins to believe in itself. It always creates the world in its own image; it cannot do otherwise; philosophy is this tyrannical impulse itself, the most spiritual Will to Power, the will to "creation of the world," the will to the causa prima.
It displays a lack of personal initiative and will to power.
>house getting raided and everone you love killed
>Sign, everything is going to be alright.
nihilism > stoicism
>>7936531
literally a cuck philosophy
>>7936696
That's not even it though.
>>7936775
Yeah Stoicism is watching your wife get fucked and thinking "the universe is just, this is meant to happen, I'll only be upset by this if I look at it as a bad thing :)"
>>7936778
Bad misinterpretation / strawman. Please read up on Stoicism.
>>7936788
Pointing out a fallacy is a strawman. Please elaborate why what that gentleman wrote is wrong.
Diogenes was pretty based, but I haven't read up much on Stoicism.
>>7936778
Stoicism is beating the shit out of the man, leaving the woman, and not crying like a bitch over it.
>>7936778
>>7936696
you really need to read some actual stoic work instead of glossing over wikipedia and forming contrarian opinions off of it.
specially the idiot who wrote "nihilism > stoicism".
The later stoics (like aurelius) actually were a bit nihilistic in the sense that they emphasized exactly how insignificant and unimportant one's life is, which ceases to exist in a short interval and lacks any real meaning. Therefore their emphasis on not being overly bothered over petty and trivial matters and being a bitch about them.
Also, they don't rationalize grief like you tards seem to think they do. They try to point out the futility in bitching and whining over what has already occurred and instead advise pragmatism and foresight.
That's why they're badass. You can't perturb them at all because the worst that life has to give to them will crash like a sea wave on a solid rock that does not yield. It takes strength and courage to resist grief, failure and do what is required instead of lying down and crying.
This is why stoicism is an excellent defense against grief, suffering (and death which they literally laugh at as just another event). You missed the entire point of their philosophy.
The stoics were fucking badass imo.
>>7936865
>>7936556
>Dull man's Epicureanism
What a stupid, uninformed thing to say. Epicureanism is fundamentally far duller than Stoicism, it's absolutely less romantic and incredibly mundane at its core, stop posting.
>>7936865
Soooo it's pessimism?
>>7936876
Work on your gardening skills pleb
Also, how is Stoicism not worldly? Unless you meant another thing by mundane of course.
>>7936880
No, it's stoicism.
stoicism is inhuman and boring as shit.
I'm a stoic guy, but probably not in the classical sense. I do apply value to things, and I have reactions to externalities, as is only healthy in this day and age,
>but
I'm the captain of my uni's rugby team, which requires a certain stoicism to just get by, and I'm applying to be an officer in the Marine Corps, which also requires a stoic's mindset.
I will.
>>7936888
Soooo stoicism is pessimism?
>>7936892
Pessimism would be crying like a bitch over shit.
Stoicism is about being cool and calm like a epic bad ass.
Stop hating on Stoicism, it's clear you know shit all about philosophy.
>>7936885
>Also, how is Stoicism not worldly?
Firstly, I'm obviously using 'mundane' informally, which if you weren't retarded you could have told from my use of 'romantic' in the same sentence.
Secondly, are you joking? Its metaphysics and discussion of the cosmopolitan are far from the mundanity of Epicureanism's fixation upon defining, clarifying, and distilling the virtuous pleasures into the most (formally and informally) mundane lifestyle possible.
>>7936892
No, stoicism is stoicism.
What a dumb-shit, reductive thing to assert, stop posting.
>>7936778
Stoicism is being so indifferent to your wife getting fucked that you can't be cucked because your resigned fortitude has transcended petty, emotional reaction.
>>7936900
I'm not hating. Why is pointing out that it sounds a lot like pessimism equivalent to hate?
>an excellent defense against grief, suffering (and death which they literally laugh at as just another event).
This sounds a lot like pessimism. (And btw pessimists don't cry over shit. Read up on pessimism.)
>>7936889
not an argument :)
stoicism obliges love of all humanity through the catalytic awareness and validation of one's own self in the cosmic drama, and therefore all others too; there is nothing inhuman about it
>>7936934
If I can't vitriolically abuse people in tutorials, then I have to do it on the internet.
Meaningless quietism born from a materialist metaphysic
Epicureanism is just as bad
Meme "ethical-practical" philosophies for babbies who aren't actually interested in philosophy
>>7936958
Nobody fucking cares. LOL.
>>7936961
>Meme "ethical-practical" philosophies for babbies who aren't actually interested in philosophy
lol aristotelian ethics would qualify for this the most
tell us then oh wise sage, which philosophies aren't memes
>>7936961
Epicureanism is way better.
Gets you greenfingers and atomic bombs.
>>7936875
>Marvel over Batman
Someone get this hothead out of here
>>7936964
lol you do or else you wouldn't have replied
>>7936970
Yeah that's what your mum said last night
>>7936975
lol wtf
It's okay. Too many ppl just read meditations and think they've mastered it. but In reality it's pretty hard to apply in everyday situation's
Mostly placebo. but if it works for u ^.^
Montesquiue said stoics make the best citizens.
This may very well be true.
But they don't make very good artists or philosophers.
>>7936961
>Meme "ethical-practical" philosophies
Stoic practitioners even said that actually attaining Apatheia was unlikely for all except the aged, and even then would be rare. It's an impractical philosophy, and well aware of that fact. It's something to aspire to throughout one's whole life, not suddenly acquire. Shows what you know.
>>7936531
If I were an emperor/on the top of any hierarchy it would be the ideology I'd force down the throats of my underlings
>>7936984
>Posidonius wasn't a good philosopher
>Dem's fighting words.
>>7936865
gentle reminder that Aurelius raised another man's son. He was LITERALLY a cuckold.
Stoics = cucks.
>>7936875
>hahaha I bet you prefer coke to pepsi you old geezer XD
That's how you sound.
>>7936965
Highly abstract meta shit of course. The philosophy that's best is the one that has no practical use whatsoever.
>>7937505
He has no extant writings.
The more I read the more I become aware of exactly how shitty discussions on this board are. I used to think people on this board have interesting perspectives but I'm gradually becoming disillusioned.
This thread is an example why. Apart from one or two posts no one has bothered to even come close to having a serious, interesting discussion of the stoics (despite there being so much to be said about their philosophy).
The retards railing against it here obviously haven't read any proper stoic work and instead of providing a well thought out critique of its flaws (and inconsistencies) which it certainly does have, there are only unsubstantiated shitposts and retarded bait.
Fucks sake. Does no one have anything to say about their concept of logos? About how they adhere to some sort of determinism and free will at the same time? About their values of justice, righteousness and pragmatism? About how it deals with indulgence and its contrast with epicurean and hedonist thought?
What a terrible thread. Stoicism is such an amazing, relatively simple and grounded school of thought yet people here seem to have such major misconceptions about it.
>>7939154
>greentext greentext
That's how you sound.
>>7939678
You're not going to get good discussion on here. Especially as most people only value it as a method of "self-improvement".
The majority of people on here do not read the Stoics for their metaphysics, but to find methods of coping with life.
Aside from that point, 4chan's culture and nature deters sensible discussion. Even some of the more educated posts in this thread still contain shit flinging insults.
>>7939721
Shame that this is basically the only forum to discuss this stuff on the internet.
Trolls sometimes make for better threads because people who know their shit sometimes elaborate their ideas further to argue with them, which helps lurkers. But sometimes those guys aren't around or don't feel like arguing, which makes threads like this.
Still better than reddit.
>>7939730
Also shit flinging insults is simply 4chan code for sincerity.
"He's a faggot" sometimes means "here's a bump chief"
>>7939734
This is true.
It's often just a cultural thing.
I've been coming here since I was a child. Even if i feel a keen affinity for a poster's sentiment, It often doesn't feel appropriate to express it without some sort of insult.
Take a response and scale the hyperbole back a couple of notches. It's a truer reflection.
>>7936547
You suggest staying in the autism realm?
>>7939678
by all means enlighten us mr.stoic
haha
>>7939678
Posts like this are the worst. They aren't funny and they aren't informative. They don't contribute to discussion in any way.
If you think something should be said, say it. Don't complain about nobody else saying it.
Of course some whiney stoic apologist would post some dumb shit like that. Fuck you.
>>7939678
Stoics liked to fondle each other
>>7940913
oh the irony. what contribution have you brought to the thread other than bitching about someone who's trying to initiate a proper discussion? at least I contributed to the thread by speaking about the subject matter in a different post above:>>7936865
if you're only interested in shitposting, then other boards like /b/ might be better for you.
>>7940954
vague references and bitching != trying to initiate serious discussion
I am interested in quality shitposts and quality discussion. That post contained neither. The point of my response was to show the pointlessness therein and thus force the poster to either expand on their ideas (thus actually contributing to discussion) or shitpost in a more enjoyable manner.
If you're interested in only discussion or only shitposting this is the wrong place for you because there has always been a balance.
Socialism is fucking disgusting
Are there any surviving stoic philosophers outside of Aurelius, Epictetus, and Seneca? Middle Ages and modern are okay too
Stoicism is the "just bee urself bro" of moral philosophy.
>Woah man, why are you crying? Have you just tried not being sad?
Free will is a meme.
>>7942600
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>7936865
This post is, how should I put it, ideology at it's purest.
>>7936531
It relieves my pain.
>>7936531
I know stoicism is being shit on ITT, but I think of stoicism in a different way, and feel free to call me a retard here, but:
Stoicism is really the undergirding of successful societies, along with a few other tenets like Judeo-Christianity and monogamy.
Hear me out here, I'm not just being a conservatard. Some stoicism comes in biological form, e.g. men's lessened predisposition for emotionality, but much of stoicism is inculcated in young men -- and not just in today's societies, but for millennia -- for reasons which I propose:
1) Men must compete with other men for women. This is simple sexual dimorphism. Women don't like overly emotional men, nor is getting caught up in the minutiae of feeling advantageous for men's chances at finding a mate.
2) Men are, and almost invariably have been, the providers in society. Whether it be in hunter/gatherer societies or in agrarian ones, men have always had to put their neck on the line to provide. Emotionality is an obvious vice if thwarted into such a role.
Men need to be the family's emotional pillar in which they're the ones taking the brunt of the hit while simultaneously solving problems. Men cannot do this if they're bogged down by concerns.
I believe my theory is corroborated perfectly by modern society. Men are still expected to provide. Men work all the difficult jobs. Men are not expected to complain. Indeed men voluntarily fight the wars. Of course, in Western societies a lot of stoic values are being eroded away, but it's not my job to comment on that.
Tell me I'm wrong /lit/, or tell me that perhaps stoicism is a bit of a misnomer for what I'm observing here.
>>7942916
First, you're a fucking idiot on men's roles. In our western society, women are men too. Check out Eastern Europe or east Asia for women women.
Second, if stoicism was "natural" men would come with it; why put it in book form and make a religion out of it if everyone already does it?
The Stoicism that survives to us is at least third wave greek philosophy and there's a reason why this is so: namely, stoicism promotes very individualistic ideas, which hunter gatherer tribes can't use. In order to have individualism you need laws and police or else the top dog or less individualistic tribe will shit all over your overthinking.
As a belief/ethical system for civilization? It seems to do pretty well, it addresses the lack of self-determinism and feeling of helplessness society affects the individual with.
>>7936531
Literally god tier
>>7939678
Worst post ITT
Coming to 4chan, 4CHAN and expecting some faux-deep reddit-tier jerk fest? Fuck that. Not having that is exactly why this website is at all good from time to time.
>>7937656
So did the first emperor of Rome, Augustus. Also many other Romans as well; it was a common thing.
Hell, people still do it today.
>>7939678
Facebook com/ stoicismgroup
I made this same thread about a year ago, and had lots of interesting discussions. I think /lit has gone to shit due to the massive amount of newfags that have flooded 4chan over the year.
>>7937656
the "thinking man's fetish"
>>7936531
No one takes stoicism seriously in academia. It is essentially Christian ethics.
>>7942984
>you're a fucking idiot on men's roles. In our western society, women are men too. Check out Eastern Europe or east Asia for women women.
Well, that's fine, but I'm not wrong. Women are still inhabiting the roles they always have in Western societies. This fact manifests itself in the jobs they choose and the roles they take. e.g. women, of their own volition, still follow certain paths in even the most egalitarian, open societies. They choose the same careers, want the same men, and even still don't enjoy being at the helm of the household or in the midst of competition in their careers.
Men, much the same, are occupying the same provider role they always have, in the same society which regards repression of emotion and dealing with the task at hand highly.
Point being, stoicism is still very much alive and well.
As for your point about individualism/anarchism etc. I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Whether the society is hunter/gatherer, agrarian, anarchistic or socialistic, the men will always have a need to squelch their emotion in order to ensure the better functioning of the collective
>The Stoicism that survives to us
No. You're misinterpreting me. You view stoicism as a Greek conception, whereas I view stoicism as something the Greeks merely observed. Stoicism, as I see it, is the byproduct of dimorphism and the outcome of a society in which emotional austerity is necessity.
>>7943105
>Whether or not the intelligentsia accept an idea has always been a good indicator of whether or not that idea had merit
>muh argument from authority
babby's first stroll through the park
Thank God for the intelligentsia! Now we can finally all agree that wealth should be equally distributed, speech codes must be put in place, and we can do away with any oppressive systems in which merit is valued!
>>7943115
Stoicism is essentially just Cynicism that has been watered down and domesticated to the point where it is inoffensive to capitalists and oligarchs.
>>7936825
No, it'd be leaving her in a peaceful legal manner. While keeping yourself composed. You'd be thankful that you managed to walk in on a visible example of your wife not being trustworthy and a good spouse.
>>7936531
Stoics did to cynicism what Westerners did to Buddhism
despite their engineering achievements, the romans were deeply, profoundly stupid and will always be below the greeks.
much like the relationship between americans and europeans
>>7943149
Or you could say that cynicism is just stoicism that isn't practical and won't lead to a flourishing lifestyle in most cases. As in to be a cynic and to live requires begging. If you life in a society that won't look after cynics then cynics cease to be. Stoics can lead a variety of lifestyles, cynics only have one.
>>7943576
This guy.
>>7936531
I wouldn't live my life as a stoic but I think the basic ideas of stoicism are solid and extremely relevant in today's western world
>>7943063
This desu.
People just want a Stoic circle jerk.
>>7943063
So reddit is for people trying to have a conversation and 4chan is for shitposting? Way to sell 4chan bro.
>>7943593
4chan is post-discussion.
Don't blame us if you can't keep up.
>>7943593
LOL check out this faggot
>>7943599
>Believing in progress
I trusted you 4chan.
>>7943576
>Or you could say that Buddhism is just Western Buddhism that isn't practical and won't lead to a flourishing lifestyle in most cases. As in to be a Buddhist and to live requires living as mendicant or in a monastery. If you life in a society that won't look after Buddhists then Buddhists cease to be. Western Buddhists can lead a variety of lifestyles, Buddhists only have one.
Hardly there were cynics who begged and cynics who lectured and tutored for a living.
Take a look at their principles, none of these requires begging.
>The goal of life is eudaimonia and mental clarity or lucidity (ἁτυφια) - freedom from smoke (τύφος) which signified ignorance, mindlessness, folly, and conceit.
>Eudaimonia is achieved by living in accord with Nature as understood by human reason.
>Arrogance (τύφος) is caused by false judgments of value, which cause negative emotions, unnatural desires, and a vicious character.
>Eudaimonia, or human flourishing, depends on self-sufficiency (αὐτάρkεια), equanimity, arete, love of humanity, parrhesia and indifference to the vicissitudes of life (ἁδιαφορία).[11]
>One progresses towards flourishing and clarity through ascetic practices (ἄσkησις) which help one become free from influences – such as wealth, fame, and power – that have no value in Nature. Examples include Diogenes' practice of living in a tub and walking barefoot in winter.
>A Cynic practices shamelessness or impudence (Αναιδεια) and defaces the nomos of society; the laws, customs, and social conventions which people take for granted.
>>7943618
Stoicism is still way more bad ass than that pretentious shit.
>>7936696
do you get off on posting daguerrotypes of neanderthalesque-looking philosophers whose writings you don't understand?
>>7943631
Yeah who needs stupid things like eudaimonia and clarity anyway. If you find the Emos of the philosophical world to be bad ass then good luck
>>7943618
Actually the first part is true. Chinese went to india after the golden age looking Buddhists and there were none.
>badass
>badass
>badass
>I want to be a stoic because it's badass
Someone's thirteen and bullied at school.
>>7942675
>radicial conclusion of stoic prinicples
which are?
>>7943631
that's a blender form the perspective of the dhamma: it is not worth it do make people more butthurt than what they are.
>>7943815
Hardcore asceticism and a complete disregard for fame and wealth.
>>7943766
that sounds like a funny story
stoicism is BAD ASS.
marcus aurelius was an EMPEROR
>>7943866
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_India
Yea, yea wiki as a source and so on.
>>7943886
Christianity is BAD ASS
Ronald Reagan was a PRESIDENT
>>7943923
>equating a president to a dank ass emperor
>>7943918
Oh I wasnt being an ass I was just seeing the humor in the tragedy it must have been for the Chinese. Kind of like how that mythical hyper advanced kingdom of Prester John that was set to save Europe from Islam was just Ethiopia.
Stoicism is worth absorbing into a personal philosophy. Seneca et al provide a grounded approach to self-cultivation.
>actually practicing this shit
only for off the deep end r9k tier morons
>>7943106
>I view stoicism as something the Greeks merely observed. Stoicism, as I see it, is the byproduct of dimorphism and the outcome of a society in which emotional austerity is necessity.
Well you're fucking wrong because stoicism is a school of Greek philosophy.
You can't just say "I view..." to make your delusions acceptable. That's not what the word means.
now go back to /v/ or wherever the fuck it is you came from.
