For those of us that aren't going to school to get a degree in English, what are the best options to learn about literature and how to make good literature? Critics? Guides? What?
>>7906379
im curious about this too. I cant justify spending all that money for little return
i listen to lectures on youtube during my commute. i've learned a lot about lit. theory
>>7906644
Got a B.A in English last year, can't say it was much wasted money since I live in a country which has basically free Uni. Also I live in a non-English speaking country where it makes sense to learn practical skills in the future world language.
>>7906648
this.
http://oyc.yale.edu/english/engl-300#sessions
Reading and writing. All you need.
>>7906697
i really like to watch lectures on a book that i'm about to read/ am reading/ just finished so i usually just search e.g. "Moby Dick Lecture"
but there's really so much, just search "literature lectures" and up comes a bunch of playlists of hundreds of vids
just jump in wherever
There's no alternative. Without seminar discussion you learn nothing but how to re-articulate your own least-common-denominator views in the language of some or another discourse.
>>7906765
William Faulkner made D's in English and dropped out of college. How did he manage to become GOAT?
>>7907280
>"corncobs" faulkner
>GOAT
pick one senpai
>>7906379
read books
>>7906379
10/10 but she has a smoker's tooth.
>>7906379
History
>>7906657
>queer theory
>feminist tradition
>African American criticism
thanks for reminding me why i skipped college
>>7907332
Seconded. The skills you acquire from textual analysis of historical documents and whatnot are easily extrapolated to literature. I majored in history and did not take a single English course as an undergrad, but regularly impress English majors with my understanding of literature. In fairness though, I take lit more seriously than most of them ever did. I'm sure an English major who was equally passionate about the subject would have a much better grasp of it than myself, I just haven't encountered many of those.
>>7907360
Wow.
>>7907374
Only a few of the people I knew in my BA courses in English knew a lot about literature. Most of the people there were just LOL HARRY POTTER DUDE, and only referenced Dan Brown, Harry Potter and Twilight. This was almost entirely true of the women though, some of the guys there could talk about non meme literature.
>>7907404
I really hope you're joking. Though, I have heard that most English majors go on to be failed writers followed by failure at being teachers.
If that's the case then for my sanity and their safety I should probably major in something else and learn about literature on my own.
>>7907499
Not joking dude, take something else than English and just read books.
>>7906379
YouTube channels
Strunk and White
Researching anything you write even remotely involving an aspect rooted in non-fiction
Once you start writing something, don't quit until it's finished: it's easier to edit a piece of shit than to give up on it half way through (plus bad writing is still experience)
Study your mother tongue, and really get a feel for words that fit well either with each other or with what they are describing
If you wish you share your writing, keep it relatable. Even if you feel like you're sacrificing. Creative writing freedom is earned, unfortunately.
Believe in yourself, and always be looking out for inspiration, teeter between philosophies in your mind (know both sides of anything you wish to portray only one side of), imagine imagine and imagine more.
Etc.
>>7907360
Um.., anon? Your... Yourignoranceis showing...
>>7907527
>le autodidact meme
I'm not disagreeing with you but professors help enormously in making sure newbs don't hit all the classic pitfalls
>>7907293
fuck you dude
>>7909214
>If you wish you share your writing, keep it relatable
Too loaded of a term. Its really easy for someone to think you're telling them to write bundles of YA shit before they can be a "real" writer.
Whats really the big factor here is clarity, if you're clear on whats going on then the audience will have no problem "relating" to it. Dosent really matter if its fantasy or realistic fiction.
>>7906765
>your contributions to seminars aren't tautologies of your initial thoughts on the lit anyway
>you have done more than just falsely admit to changing your point of view to appear humble and grounded in front of your peers
>>7909431
implying the majority of people who buy books in bookstores even read YA shit... lol
though, you have it straight. the relatablility of a character isnt derived from the setting or events; it comes from that characters reaction to his or her world. the reaction shows character traits, which are what readers most closely relate to.
obviously the reader can relate to the basic scenario regardless of the genre details; e.g. the mission was a success. but i don't think that was what you were getting at.
>>7909679
>but i don't think that was what you were getting at.
It was for the most part, since by being clear on who the character is and what they're doing you make it easier for the audience to get the thing. Then they'll have whatever reactions they will.
>>7907360
Go back to the 1950's, bigot.
>>7909689
the audience is relating, not reacting.
character's react to situations you put them in. you put your character through his paces so he can develop a portfolio of actions and reactions. the sum of these actions and reactions are known as character traits: they are patterns that develop and create the character's personality a la show-don't-tell.
the audience can relate to the character's demonstration of his character traits without having to relate to the scenario that prompted the character's reaction. e.g. your character saves a person from a burning building. not many readers can relate to that scenario. heck, not many readers can even relate to being courageous. but, when you boil it down, the character's reaction to the scenario was simply to put another person's needs above his own. this boiled-down stuff is what the reader can relate to, regardless of what I call genre details (ie the specific scenarios and c that make an action story what it is vs a drama, rather than basic frameworks of conflict).
>be clear
dude you need to expand more when giving advice
Here's my guide. Read in order.
Huddleston/Pullum, A student's introduction to English grammar. You should master English grammar. Don't be fooled by "introduction."
Adler/Doren, How to read a book. Strategies to reading smart.
Adler, How to mark a book. This is an article. You should actively mark your books.
LaFleur, Wheelock's Latin. LaFleur, Workbook for Wheelock's Latin. LaFleur; Scribblers, sculptors, and scribes. Teaches you basic Latin. Use all 3 together.
LaFleur, Wheelock's Latin Reader. Teaches intermediate Latin.
Virgil, Aeneid. Read in Latin, you could find a Latin/English edition.
Hansen/Quinn, Greek: an intensive course. Will teach enough Ancient Greek to read.
Εὐριπίδης, Μήδεια. Find a Latin/Greek edition.
Magee, The story of philosophy. Gives a good overview of philosophy.
Hamilton, Mythology. Teaches you the necessary background for the following.
Homer, The Odyssey. Find an edition with Greek text.
Homer, The Iliad. Same as above.
Herodotus, Histories. History to give context. Find Greek.
Waterfield, The first philosophers. Pre-Socratics.
Find Greek editions of the following.
Plato, Complete works.
Aristotle, The complete works of Aristotle.
For these works you should find a Latin edition.
Augustine, Confessions.
Augustine, The city of God.
Feser, Aquinas. Will help to understand Aquinas.
Aquinas, Shorter Summa.
The Norton anthology of theory and criticism. A good overview on the subject of literary theory and criticism.
Tolkien, The annotated Hobbit.
Tolkien, The lord of the rings.
Hammond/Scull, The lord of the rings: a reader's companion. So, the reason for the Tolkien books is for babby's first into what a scholar might note about the text.
The Norton anthology of poetry. A good overview of poetry.
Pound, The cantos. Terrell's A companion to the cantos. Same reason for Tolkien but for poetry (and deeper).
Joyce, Finnegans Wake. McHugh, Annotations to Finnegans Wake. Now you have broken a barrier into patricianhood.
Read the following and make your own annotations.
Whitman, Leaves of grass
McElroy, Women and men
Bukowski, South of no north
Gass, The tunnel
Schmidt, Bottom's dream
Now, learn Lojban.
Cowan, The complete Lojban language. "Why?" Because this is an exercise.
Learn Lojban and write a 20,000 word book using all the knowledge you have learned.
Now read all of the Paris Interviews. Then write another 20,000 word book but in English this time.
After doing all of this you should be able to read Harry Potter.
>>7909747
You're basically just expanding on what I already said: be clear in the characters action and people will get it, emotion should naturally follow since its part of the characters actions. You dont even have a character without "emotion" and action.(Covering that base in the event someone brings up a hyperrational "emotionless" character, even though that itself has some basis in emotion, being the-lack-of, which gives the trait its noticeable texture, but enough of this mincing shit)
The big point was your use of the term "relateable" was already vague in itself and was primed to send someone astray, since by now its become such a cliche in writing terminology, but of course we end up on the same page. The key point is clarity.
I wasn't under any impression that I was "giving advice", to you anyway. It seemed me and you and I both knew the business and would leave it at that with mutual understanding. I think now we can do that.And please dont tell me that you think people dont react to the events in the story, I clearly made a distinction between "relating" by conflating it with understanding whats going on in the story, and then "reacting" is what follows, being the persons on emotional response after comprehending whats happening. You can say that is /how/ they relate to the thing, but like I said ,I dont really care to get overly technical, this is stuff someone can easily learn on their own through practice and study.
>>7909797
I forgot a couple things in this guide but I guess it's not really mandatory. (I was writing all this on my phone.)
>>7909806
aiight chill nigga i was jus checkin if u woke or not
wardine be cry yadig?
>>7907360
No. Hes right. That is propoganda that doesn't further the subject of study.
>>7909652
>Tfw don't know shit all about lit
>tfw classmates think I'm some genius because I could bullshit what I learned in high school about Othello during seminar
I wonder what it's like going to a school that isn't bad.
>>7909797
Assuming you're serious, why read the Aenied before the Iliad and the Odyssey?
>>7909931
I meant to put it after. I forgot to add some things about the Bible too.
>>7909797
Thank you
>>7909823
THE J00S
THE J00S KONTROL THE WORLD
>>7909431
>If you wish you share your writing, keep it relatable. Even if you feel like you're sacrificing. Creative writing freedom is earned, unfortunately.
Was the entire colective idea. But yes, relatable was the wrong word since I was referring more to allusions and acknowledging the fact that you know what you're talking about. My fault. "Relateable" was easier to type, but too condensed.
>>7910008
Please do if you don't mind
>>7909823
They are just theories which happen to be relevant in the current academic discourse. Get over it.
>>7909694
Gladly
>>7906658
Underrrated. Work hard and maybe you'll make it.
>>7907332
>>7907374
History student in a shitty college here. Tons of Chomsky-tier leftist bullshit, which my fellow freshmen swallow with fruition. Did some research on the internet; more than a half of my teachers this year have something to do with naive-communist (not like straight and clear Marxist-Leninist Party, but something a little more disguised) organizations. Some of them have lately tried to get seats at the city hall.
As students, we're told to make essays on topics like the following:
>on multiculturalism basing on the Borat movie
>on inequality basing on no more than a newspaper article about a NGO inform and an opinion article by Paul Krugman
>on sexism in rock music
>on a pseudo documentary that presents Chomsky as a messianic figure preaching to the unenglightened american sheeps about how an elite controling the media swindles the audience in order to make them believe whatever it's better for the elite's interests
Spanish university is a fucking meme when it comes to humanities studies. It doesn't help the fact that uni studies are practically free.
>>7910690
I've been updating the guide on my computer. Here's what I've written so far, though it's not finished.
>Part 1, get more out of the works
Adler, How to mark a book. Mark all of the books in this list.
Adler/Doren, How to read a book. Use the strategies within this text to better understand the other books in this list.
The Norton anthology of theory and criticism. Introduction to literary theory.
Apply the knowledge from these three books to the rest of the works here.
>Part 2, learn Latin
LaFleur, Wheelock's Latin.
Comeau/LaFleur, Workbook for Wheelock's Latin.
LaFleur, Scribblers, sculptors, and scribes. This work and the previous two all work together chapter-by-chapter to teach introductory Latin.
LaFleur, Wheelock's Latin Reader. After finishing the above three this will take you to intermediate Latin.
Learning Latin first will make learning and reading Greek easier.
>Part 3, finally start with the Greeks
Magee, The story of philosophy. Gives a good overview of Western philosophy as a whole.
Hamilton, Mythology. Before we begin reading the philosophers we must first learn the history, mythology, and language of Ancient Greece.
Hansen/Quinn, Greek: an intensive course. Teaches enough Ancient Greek to read the philosophers.
Homer, The Iliad. Loeb Classical Library has Greek editions of Homer.
Homer, The Odyssey. Loeb Classical Library editions might be too expensive or unable to be found, if you can stand it the Greek works are all available free online, otherwise read in English.
Herodotus, The histories.
Waterfield, The first philosophers.
Plato, complete works.
Aristotle, complete works.
>Part 4, medieval and more Latin
Augustine, Confessions.
Augustine, The city of God against the pagans.
Feser, Aquinas.
Aquinas, Shorter summa.
Virgil, Aeneid.
What I said about Loeb Classical Library in part 3 can be applied to the Latin works in part 4.
>Part 5, patricianhood
The New Oxford Annotated Bible.
Alter/Kermode, The Literary Guide to the Bible. Read this in conjuction with the above book book-by-book.
Pound, The cantos. The Cantos is like the Finnegans Wake of poetry.
Terrell, A companion to the cantos. You will need a companion to understand The Cantos.
Joyce, Finnegans Wake. A difficult read.
Tindall, A reader's guide to Finnegans Wake. You will need a companion to understand Finnegans Wake.
>Part 8, become the author
The Paris Review interviews. Interviews on their craft of Borges, Eliot, Hemingway, Baldwin, Pound, Murakami, and Faulkner to name a few.
Huddleston/Pullum, A student's introduction to English grammar. You should master the grammar of your own language before starting.
Use the knowledge from these two books to write a 50,000-word novel for NaNoWriMo.
(Note: add something about writing poetry to step 8)
>>7912009
>Optional Part 9, niche market
Cowen, The complete Lojban language. This is not an introductory text; it is best to learn from an online guide.
Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban#Lojban_as_a_literary_language
There are no original works of literature in this language as of yet. Why not, as an exercise, write the first original novel in this language?
>Optional, Japanese lit
Gordon, A modern history of Japan. Understanding the culture and life of the Japanese will help you understand their works.
Stout, Japanese hiragana & katakana for beginners. First you must learn Japanese.
Conning, The Kodansha kanji learner's course. This book and the above will teach the Japanese writing system, oft considered one of the most difficult parts of Japanese.
Nagara, Japanese for everyone. Will teach to N4 Japanese.
Oka, Tobira. Will teach to N3 Japanese.
Kondoh/Maruyama, Images of Japan. Will teach to N2 Japanese; higher-level Japanese will be learned through literature.
Murray, Exploring Japanese literature. Includes works by Mishima, Tanizaki, and Kawabata.
Now you can read Harry Potter.
>>7912009
>Part 2, learn Latin
oh fuck not this shit again noooooo
>>7907293
That's an ignorant insult from Nabokov because people don't really grow corn in Mississippi. It's mainly cotton and various fruits and veggie but very rarely will you see a cornfield there.
>>7912172
You never read Faulkner's corn cob rape scene in "Sanctuary"?
You shouldn't comment here if you're really that ignorant.
>>7912113
Go back to /b/, you mouth-breathing ignoramus.
>>7909250
The pitfalls that they themselves as failed writers made? I see your point.
>>7912184
>being an elitist on a hentai board
>>7912187
You sure got me : ^ )
Welcoming any feedback on this guide.
>Part 1, How to Read
Adler, How to mark a book; How to read a book.
The Norton anthology of theory and criticism.
How to Mark a Book is an essay on writing in your books. Apply the knowledge from these three books to the rest of the works here.
>Part 2, The Greeks
Magee, The story of philosophy.
Hamilton, Mythology.
Hansen/Quinn, Greek: an intensive course.
Homer, The Iliad; The Odyssey.
Herodotus, The histories.
Waterfield, The first philosophers.
Plato, Complete works.
Aristotle, Complete works.
Magee gives a good overview of Western philosophy as a whole. Before we begin reading the philosophers we must first learn the history, mythology, and language of Ancient Greece. Hansen/Quinn will teach enough Ancient Greek to read the philosophers. To read the respective works in Ancient Greek consult: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/collection?collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman
>Part 3, Learn Latin
LaFleur, Wheelock's Latin; Workbook for Wheelock's Latin; Scribblers, sculptors, and scribes; Wheelock's Latin reader.
Wheelock's Latin; Workbook for Wheelock's Latin; and Scribblers, Sculptors, and Scribes all work together chapter-by-chapter to teach introductory Latin. After finishing Wheelock's Latin, Wheelock's Latin Reader will take you to intermediate Latin.
>Part 4, Latin and Medieval
Virgil, Aeneid.
The new Oxford annotated Bible with Apocrypha.
Alter/Kermode, The literary guide to the Bible.
Augustine, Confessions; The city of God against the pagans.
Feser, Aquinas.
Aquinas, Shorter summa.
Read The Literary Guide to the Bible in conjunction with The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha book-by-book. To read the respective works in Latin consult: http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/
>Part 5, English Literature
Shakespeare, Complete works.
Milton, Paradise lost.
Shelley, Frankenstein.
Melville, Moby-Dick.
Whiteman, Leaves of grass.
Poe, Complete works.
Joyce, The essential Joyce; Ulysses.
Fitzgerald, The great Gatsby.
Doyle, Complete works.
Woolf, To the lighthouse.
Faulkner, The sound and the fury.
Lovecraft, Complete works.
Steinbeck, Of mice and men; East of Eden.
Hemingway, The old man and the sea.
Heller, Catch-22.
Salinger, The catcher in the rye.
Nabokov, The annotated Lolita.
Gaddis, The recognitions.
Williams, Stoner.
Pynchon, Gravity's rainbow.
Bukowski, South of no north.
Gass, The tunnel.
McElroy, Women and men.
Wallace, Infinite jest.
Works selected based on influence and memery.
>Part 6, The Sui Generis
Joyce, Finnegans wake.
McHugh, Annotations to Finnegans Wake.
Pound, The cantos.
Terrell, A companion to the cantos.
Finnegans Wake and The Cantos are difficult books. You will need the companions in order to understand them.
>>7913195
>Part 7a, To Become the Author
The Paris Review interviews.
Huddleston/Pullum, A student's introduction to English grammar.
The Paris Review Interviews include interviews of Borges, Eliot, Hemingway, Baldwin, Pound, Murakami, and Faulkner to name a few. You should master the grammar of your own language before starting. Use the knowledge from these two books to write a 50,000-word novel for NaNoWriMo.
>Part 7b, To Become the Poet
Oliver, A poetry handbook.
The Norton anthology of poetry.
Oliver will teach you the structure of the poem and The Norton Anthology of Poetry will show you how different poets may write.
>Part 8, Niche Market
Cowen, The complete Lojban language
The Complete Lojban Language is not an introductory text; it is best to learn from an online guide. Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban#Lojban_as_a_literary_language. There are no original works of literature in this language as of yet. Why not, as an exercise, write the first original novel in this language?
>Optional, Learn Japanese
Gordon, A modern history of Japan.
Stout, Japanese hiragana & katakana for beginners.
Conning, The Kodansha kanji learner's course.
Nagara, Japanese for everyone.
Oka, Tobira.
Kondoh/Maruyama, Images of Japan.
Murray, Exploring Japanese literature.
A Modern History of Japan will give you an understanding of the culture and life of the Japanese which will help you understand their works. To read Japanese you should learn Japanese. Japanese Hiragana & Katakana for Beginners and The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course will teach the Japanese writing system oft considered one of the most difficult parts of Japanese. The next three books will bring you to around N2 level which is "the ability to understand Japanese used in everyday situations, and in a variety of circumstances to a certain degree." However, you should be able to read Japanese literature at this point and the next book will include works by Mishima, Tanizaki, and Kawabata.
Now you can read Harry Potter.
Hey, guys. I've posted my guide on this website here so you can visit it after this thread 404s. I'll update it occasionally as well. Thank you for believing in me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/4ef36y/a_guide_to_the_prerequisites_of_harry_potter/
>>7913195
It's an unanswerable task to try to put together a definitive guide on how to get into literature, so shortcomings are inevitable and must be expected, but even so, this is not a good attempt.
Your Greeks and Latin/Mediaeval contain no Sappho, no Thucydides, no Aeschylus/Sophocles/Euripides, no Metamorphoses, no Ovid whatsoever, no Boethius, no Lucretius, Terence, Horace, Petrarch or Boccaccio. There's not even any Dante.
There is far too much American as well as modern literature in the "English Literature" section. No Spenser is unforgivable; the Faerie Queene is fundamental to understanding English literature, as well as one of the finest things written in it. There is no pre-Shakespeare at all. No Chaucer is almost as bad as no Dante. No Malory. Bizarrely you have included the full works of Doyle but not of Milton, as if reading "The Red-Headed League" were more important than reading "Areopagitica" or "Lycidas", one of the finest poems in the language. I object to the whole "complete works" of anyway, like reading Shakespeare's "Cymbeline" is more important than reading Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus" or Jonson's "Duchess of Malfi" or Kyd's "Spanish Tragedy", or what have you. There is no Bunyan in spite of "Pilgrim's Progress"'s inestimable importance.
No Swift, Sterne, Wilde, Hardy, George Eliot, Henry James, Austen, Bronte, Dickens, Richardson, Defoe. There is a bizarre bias against poetry. There is no Pope, Dryden, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Herbert, Clare, Tennyson, Hopkins, Browning, Larkin, Coleridge, Byron. Instead there is rubbish like "Catch-22". "Catch-22" is not a good book. Bukowski is not an important writer. Lovecraft is not an important writer. "Stoner" is not an important book. Gaddis is a /lit/ meme. None of these belong on a guide to literature.
All in all, consider me unimpressed and thoroughly triggered.
>>7913643
You can't complain about Gaddis when you include a mediocrity like Larkin, and leave out Donne, Marvell, Yeats, and Blake.
>>7913662
Unlike the anon to whom I replied, my list wasn't intended to be exhaustive, only to point out some that he missed. Donne, Marvell, Yeats, and Blake should all be included as well. As well as a bunch more I'm probably still forgetting.
>>7913643
>There's not even any Dante.
His most notable work is in Italian so I decided against it.
>contain no Sappho, no Thucydides, no Aeschylus/Sophocles/Euripides, no Metamorphoses, no Ovid whatsoever, no Boethius, no Lucretius, Terence, Horace, Petrarch or Boccaccio
All right, I'll add them then.
>No Spenser is unforgivable
Recommended work(s) by Spenser?
>the Faerie Queene
Will add.
>No Chaucer
I do have Chaucer, check the above link.
>Bizarrely you have included the full works of Doyle
Not anymore.
>No Swift, Sterne, Wilde, Hardy, George Eliot, Henry James, Austen, Bronte, Dickens, Richardson, Defoe.
I do have Wilde, Bronte, and Dickens. What works of Swift, Sterne, Hardy, G. Eliot, H. James, Austen, Richardson, and Defoe should I add?
>Pope, Dryden, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Herbert, Clare, Tennyson, Hopkins, Browning, Larkin, Coleridge
Tell me specific works.
>Lovecraft is not an important writer
Already removed.
>All in all, consider me unimpressed and thoroughly triggered.
Wasn't very serious when I made this and it's biased for what's already on my bookshelf and my own interests. However, I would like to expand on it and make it better for you.
>>7913673
>>7913643
This honestly deserves it's own thread, a /lit/ guide to literature based around anon's post and revised with criticism could be pretty great. Fundamentally, I really like the idea of learning Latin and Greek along with reading Finnegan's Wale to smash "patrician" barriers. I don't personally like the Lojban part though, but if it's made clear it's an optional step then we might as well keep it in.
>>7913702
I would like this as well but I'm not going to make the thread (mostly because I'm going to be busy for awhile right after I post this reply). If anyone wants to use my guide for whatever purpose then go right ahead.
>>7913709
I might post it then, along with that other anon's big criticism of it, making clear I'm not the author of either.
>>7913714
Did you see this as well?
https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/4ef36y/a_guide_to_the_prerequisites_of_harry_potter/
It's been edited a bit since I posted the one the guy criticized. I think it's slightly better as well.
>>7913720
I'll post that one, then. Also, had a hearty kek at you posting it there.
>>7913673
Apologies if I previously overlooked any of the ones you said you already had included (Chaucer, Wilde, Bronte, Dickens), but I ctrl-f'd them all and couldn't see them anywhere.
Also mistakenly wrote that "Duchess of Malfi" is by Jonson whereas it is actually by Webster. It deserves to be on the list anyway. As does some Jonson play. Probably "Volpone".
Anyway, fair warning that what follows is personal opinion.
Spenser, "Faerie Queene"
Swift, "Gulliver's Travels"
Sterne, "Tristram Shandy"
Hardy, "Tess", "Jude", "Mayor of Casterbridge"
Eliot, "Mill on the Floss" and "Middlemarch"
James, "Portrait of a Lady"
Austen, "P&P" and "Emma"
Richardson, "Pamela" and "Clarissa"
Defoe, "Robinson Crusoe" and "Moll Flanders"
As for the poets, it's hard to say "specific works" like you can more easily do with novels. I'm going to say "selected works" for most of them since a well-edited edition of that nature will have the most important works of any given poet, even if the original providences of each individual poem may be disparate:
Pope, "Rape of the Lock"
Dryden, "Absalom and Achitophel"
Wordsworth, "Prelude" and "Lyrical Ballads"
Shelley, Selected and "Prometheus Unbound"
Keats, Selected
Herbert, Selected
Clare, Selected
Tennyson, "In Memoriam", "Ulysses"
Hopkins, Selected
Browning, Selected
Larkin, Selected
Coleridge, Selected
Byron, "Don Juan", "Childe Harold", "Manfred"
From the other anon:
Donne, Selected
Marvell, Selected
Yeats, Selected
Blake, "Songs of Innocence", "Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
Having done some more thinking, I would also include:
Plutarch, "Lives"
Aristophanes, "Frogs"
Walter Scott, "Waverley"
Robert Burns, "Selected"
Philip Sidney, "Astrophil and Stella"
"Beowulf"
"Dream of the Rood"
Fielding, "Tom Jones"
D. H. Lawrence, "Lady Chatterley"
>>7913726
One thing we need to consider, is whether or not this is supposed to be a total and complete syllabus? I think the guide would be more successful if we were giving the learners the ability to understand literature to explore it themselves, rather than a prescribed list hundreds of books long. Maybe for each time period or language we could have one prescribed poet, one prescribed prose, a philosophy list and then a list of recommended works?
>>7913728
"Total and complete" is a fool's errand, the best you can ever do is an approximation. Personally I would prefer structuring it as several small lists with some kind of progression through them. So the "core" would have the Bible, Homer, Virgil, Ovid, Shakespeare, Milton, Keats, George Eliot, whatever.
Then expanding outwards, maybe focused lists based on certain genres/eras. So those who liked the classics can read more of that; those who liked theatre can move on to Jonson, Marlowe, etc.; those who liked poetry can be given Spenser, Donne, Wordsworth, Blake, Yeats, etc.
Anyway this isn't my project. I just saw a pretty poor list and felt obliged to object. I'm also biased in favour of poetry. Plus there's the issue that if this is to be a guide for /lit/ there should probably be at least some Russian and French literature alongside the English-language-specific content that currently dominates it.
>>7913751
Could you say what should be removed from Part 5 in this link?
https://www.reddit.com/r/harrypotter/comments/4ef36y/a_guide_to_the_prerequisites_of_harry_potter/
>>7913751
I agree entirely, I think that's a great way to structure things. We can of course add Russian and French literature too once we've got the Latin, English and Greek fleshed out.
>Anyway this isn't my project
You do seem to have decent criticism though, so feel free to check into whatever thread it's being discussed in down the line and give your thoughts.
>>7913756
One of the problems with this list is that too much is lumped into a single category. Shakespeare doesn't belong in the same category as Vonnegut in any sense, so I would look to find some way of splitting it up. It also needs some clearer criteria for selection. Quality? Influence? The two are not the same. Is it meant to be a judicious and complete introduction aimed the devoted student of literature, or something lighter with a wider appeal to casual readers?
Anyway, here are some of my issues with it. The list is 17th-21st c.English-language literature. By my count 36 of its 49 entries are American. Only two are older than 1840. None of the works you've included are either bad or unimportant. But if you are to have a list of approximately 50 entries that represent the best works of the years 1600-2016, you've clearly got a serious bias in favour of modern, American literature.
That in mind, it's rather too large a task for me to start removing and adding things. But I would suggest that three Steinbecks and four Pynchons is a little silly when you're excluding virtually all of the texts I already listed. Dick but no Marlowe. Frank Herbert but no Spenser. Miller but no Swift. And so on. (Additionally, many of Shakespeare's plays were written in the 16th c., and so fall outside of your parameters, so all the more reason to rework the nature of the list.)
>>7913765
Sure thing, though I rarely come to /lit/ these days.
>>7913815
not a bad suggestion at all. I definitely agree with the other anon's criticism of the original poster having too strong a bias towards contemporary American literature. We shouldn't have any Pynchon other than Gravity's rainbow, for example.
>>7913829
I'd love to but I personally don't have the knowledge. I was going to try taking the "course" though and posting monthly updates on my progress, along with the quality of materials. I've already ordered how to read a book and will probably get a kindle for all of the ancient greek and latin works.
>>7913829
what if we linked to the western canon in the guide? We could pick one or two to be mandatory, like, say, Shakespeare for example, and then have the student pick x amount of novels, x amount of plays/poetry and x amount of essays.
>>7913833
>>7913839
Well I'm drunkish and have fuck-all to do so I had a go at beginning to organise it into some kind of tiered structure. The idea is that you read the full contents of the "core" section, then decide which types of works you liked best or that you'd like to read more of. Those categories are then further fleshed out in the first ring, so that if you liked the prose works, you have another list of similar literature to delve into.
Though I didn't get further, the idea is that the rings keep going outwards adding more and more detail, so that interests can be developed but without losing touch with what's considered essential from the other genres/eras. I've also tried to represent temporal and geographic diversity as fairly as possible, so it's not entirely stuck in British 17th century literature (which is where my own preferences lie). Other anons free to make amendments of course.
>>CORE
Bible (KJV)
>Classics
Homer, "Odyssey"
Virgil, "Aeneid"
>Drama
Shakespeare, "Macbeth"
Marlowe, "Doctor Faustus"
>Poetry
Milton, "Lycidas"
Keats, selected
>Prose
Eliot, "Middlemarch"
Hawthorne, "Scarlet Letter"
>>FIRST RING
>Classics
Hamilton, "Mythology"
Sappho, fragments
Homer, "Iliad"
Sophocles, "Oedipus Rex"
Thucydides, "Peloponnesian War"
Plato, "Republic"
Plato, "Symposium"
Aristotle, "Poetics"
Aristotle, "Nicomachean Ethics"
Ovid, "Metamorphoses"
Cicero, "Letters"
Horace, "Odes"
Martial, "Epigrams"
Seneca, "Medea"
Aurelius, "Meditations"
>Drama
Shakespeare, "Hamlet"
Shakespeare, "King Lear"
Shakespeare, "Midsummer Night's Dream"
Shakespeare, "Tempest"
Shakespeare, "King Henry 4, Part 1"
Marlowe, "Jew of Malta"
Kyd, "Spanish Tragedy"
Webster, "Duchess of Malfi"
Jonson, "Volpone"
Wilde, "The Importance of Being Earnest"
Shaw, "Pygmalion"
Williams, "A Streetcar Named Desire"
Miller, "Death of a Salesman"
>Poetry
Wyatt, sonnets
Milton, "Paradise Lost"
Milton, "Areopagitica"
Donne, selected
Sidney, "Astrophil and Stella"
Pope, "Rape of the Lock"
Wordsworth & Coleridge, "Lyrical Ballads"
Byron, "Childe Harold's Pilgrimage"
Shelley, selected
Blake, "Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
Tennyson, "In Memoriam"
Dickinson, selected
Yeats, selected
T. S. Eliot, "The Waste Land"
Pound, selected
>Prose
Bunyan, "The Pilgrim's Progress"
Defoe, "Robinson Crusoe"
Swift, "Gulliver's Travels"
Shelley, "Frankenstein"
Austen, "Pride and Prejudice"
E. Bronte, "Wuthering Heights"
C. Bronte, "Jane Eyre"
Eliot, "Middlemarch"
Melville, "Moby Dick"
Dickens, "Great Expectations"
Wilde, "Picture of Dorian Gray"
Joyce, "Dubliners"
Fitzgerald, "Gatsby"
Nabokov, "Lolita"
Anyway feel free to make changes or develop this into a second/third ring if anyone likes the idea.
>>7913936
Personally, I would add Iliad to the core, and shouldn't we read the bible after homer chronologically speaking? Great start though.
>>7913945
>I would add Iliad to the core
Fair enough desu, I prefer the Odyssey but most people like the Iliad.
>shouldn't we read the bible after homer chronologically speaking
Doesn't really matter what order you read them in desu. The /lit/ hardon for chronology is seriously mistaken imo.
>>7913936
Beowulf should be added for some Old English.
>>7913995
I've got pre-modern English as part of the second, under construction, including Beowulf, Dream of the Rood, Wife's Lament, Chaucer, Malory and Second Shepherds' Play.
I might add a part about French.
>>7914029
It would definitely benefit from that, I'd say it would make sense to study French while reading through the English canon.
>>7906379
youtube desu senpai
>>7906648
where can I find these lectures? other than that yale reply
>>7914067
Any lectures.
>>7913195
>>7913202
>>7913643
>>7913673
>>7913702
>>7913709
>>7913720
>>7913726
>>7913751
>>7913936
You all are just going for watered down versions of the Western Canon.
Follow this. Read Criticism. Read About language as well. Learn New Languages. Keep up with finding obscurities locally or whatnot. Read the memes. Then keep up to date with contemporary releases and go back and read the bibliographies of every author whose works you've enjoyed.
Happy life, /lit./
>>7915138
My link didn't get included
http://sonic.net/~rteeter/grtbloom.html
>tfw actually downloaded greek: an intensive course
>tfw waiting on how to read a book in the mail
>tfw just read how to mark a book
anyone else embarking on anon's course?
