Why is this allowed, /lit/? Shouldnt one expect at least an attempt at accurately depicting characters historically when performing plays?
BBC
no
also an interracial pairing of romeo and juliet does a lot to highlight themes of the play
Tell that to deconstrucionists!
>>7899590
Because no one who cares about "history" in the sense you're talking about acts in, watches, or gives two shits about plays.
>implying that the people who go to see these aren't masturbating to the thought of them helping the entire black race because they let one of them play the lead in a theatre production
>>7899590
how has this board become so fucking shitty
it was never great but jesus christ
>>7899607
No I mean that woman is clearly not Italian
>>7899598
no it doesn't
10 LOAD backtoreddit.jpg
20 GOTO 10
>>7899638
yes it does
>>7899640
10 PRINT "no it doesn't"
20 GOTO 10
>>7899662
fuck up nerd
>>7899664
I'll explain to you why you think it does, and you won't be able to explain to me why I think it doesn't
>>7899676
some nerd shit probably, no one cares
>>7899688
you think that the theme of the conflict between two different aristocratic houses in an anglophone play is somehow highlighted by having two different races the families.
but anywhere in the anglophone world the white family would lick the shit out the black family, even in modern days.
you pretend that this isn't the case. therefore you don't see literature as a place to reveal de facto truths about life, you see literature as a place to push your political agenda. (presumably a SJW one)
therefore your place is on https://reddit.com
('s' stands for safe space)
>>7899703
not to mention that by doing this you're actually making things WORSE for black people.
which is why sometimes SJW is also equated with 'covert fascism'
>>7899703
>historicity
wrong again nerd
i see literature as a place to experiment with literature. you don't see how you are pushing your own agenda
>>7899710
okay. could very well be.
how is it exactly that you experiment with literature when you stick a black man and a white woman in a Romeo and Juliet play?
is it a statement on postmodernism?
>>7899601
>>7899599
>>7899607
all of these actually.
You can intentionally cast different race as a deconstructionist statement, but be aware that suddenly your entire play becomes an exercise in "oh look at this people, isn't it WILD?!"
Nobody gives a shit about historical accuracy, it's been proven time and time again.
And lastly and most importantly this whole fad really is a white liberal circlejerk to see who can appease the most guilt. Hopefully it'll pass and we can get back to where we were about 1980-1995, when you could put a black person in X or even have no black people in X without it being a forced spectacle.
>>7899714
that's not very postmodern at all
making the leads interracial isn't necessarily pushing an agenda or trying to make a statement. it just makes it easier to see how controversial such a relationship would be. it wouldn't work as an idea if interracial coupling wasn't as controversial as it is today. it doesn't require some historical tweaking to justify having a black aristocratic house. the look of the actor doesn't have to be chosen to best represent a character as he or she would exist in history like there is no law around this that requires you to do this even if it is conventional. in this case it is (perhaps) chosen on a thematic basis.
>>7899717
i think it's fine if people can't move beyond the race of the characters so much that they think the point is being 'wild'. it filters out the ideologues, both left and right
i couldn't care less who embodies the play but i'm not a pleb
It would actually be relatively plausible if it was an entire black family vs an entire white one.
>>7899590
So you think they should fire both of them and hire Italians, right? Or is this just thinly veiled racism?
>>7899717
>Hopefully it'll pass and we can get back to where we were about 1980-1995, when you could put a black person in X or even have no black people in X without it being a forced spectacle.
I'd hope for this too.
>>7899615
this, bitch looks very english
and the lad looks like a homosexual jamaican
>>7899734
yeah but imo the black/white relationship doesn't quite make it easier to see just in what specific way the relationship between a Capulet and a Montague would be controversial. If anything, it actually draws the attention away from the original theme of the play.
I personally honestly just don't quite buy that the masses can go see a well-known play in 2016, get surprised by seeing that one of the lovers' race was now changed so as to make this an interracial couple, and somehow not automatically infer that this 2010s production of the play is a statement in SJW. The reassurence just isn't there, anywhere in the text.
Unless of course you modify the original text beyond any resemblance so as to make your casting an ironic criticism of having politics in the theatre in the first place. But then it's pomo, right?
Or am I completely missing your point?
>>7899827
maybe not 'easier' but more relevant. i don't see productions as needing to improve on or create some sort of perfect expression of the work. romeo and juliet will probably be around forever. right now (maybe this will change and productions will be about authenticity, despite female characters being played by men initially) it's about keeping it relevant since theatre is dying (probably why minorities are even in theatre now since white men aren't in theatre anymore), but also offering interpretations that don't actually alter the underlying structure of the play. it's completely harmless and ephemeral
>I personally honestly just don't quite buy
i think you may politicise things too much. black actors can be black actors, playing white roles. male actors can be male actors, playing female roles. it's just a reflection of contemporary attitudes and conditions rather than political statements
if dubs this is /tv/
why do /pol/ give a shit if a black actor play a role of a white character?
I DONT FUCKING GIVE A SHIT POL
FUCK YOU
stories are all about rewritting rethinking
>>7899734
>it wouldn't work as an idea if interracial coupling wasn't as controversial as it is today.
Hardly.
Should've made one of them trans considering how often they kill themselves lmao. More fitting don't you agree?
>>7899590
the worst is when they try to make othello white
since his being black is actually important to the narrative
shakespeare's narrative's are shit though, and the only reason he deserves any merit is the aesthetic quality of his writing
>>7899710
>throwing nerd around a a pejorative in a forum dedicated to literature
Stop it.
>>7899808
Italians are white
The people in Romeo and Juliet are white, it makes sense to have white people in the play
You don't think it would be weird to have a play based in Nigeria starring white people? Would you call that racist? I doubt it.
>>7900753
how new ru
>>7900764
I don't doubt it*
>>7900741
Whitewashing is acceptable, but smokestacking is not.
>>7899590
Who gives a fuck if the actor is black? Historically, many of the plays from this era had male actors prancing around in wigs and dresses. Women didn't act in plays in the Elizabethan period. Granted, we should aim to have the actors in the plays represent realistic depictions of the population in the area the play is set in, but still... If we want to complain about a black actor playing Romeo, we should also complain that there are women acting as women, and not men acting as women. If we want to be historically accurate and all.
>>7900764
>Italians are white so they have to be white!
>whole play involves "Italians" talking and acting like a bunch of englishmen
ok
Well in an instance in which a black man could be of such high class I would hope that his being black would have no ramifications as far as racism goes. What are you attempting to suggest here? Or is this just an outspurt spawned from a deep seated hatred for blacks?
We waz nobility n shit
>>7899590
>Shouldnt one expect at least an attempt at accurately depicting characters historically when performing plays?
oh ho, now let me stab tybalt, oh my, and what a great party we're having here in the city of verona, oh ho ho ho ho ho ho
>>7899590
It's a play anon, a piece of art famous for themes as opposed to the time-period it was set. White actors play as Arabian and African people pretty frequently.
>>7899590
Literally changes nothing important. Why do you care so much? I see no reason why the race of the character is of any importance in Romeo and Juliet.
>>7900741
You don't get to say anything about Shakespeare's narratives when you can't even grasp the grammar needed to formulate your critique.
His narratives are great. They're just not as outstandingly superior as his mastery of language.
>>7899590
I saw an all black Hamlet set in like Africa or shit last month at the Royal Shakespeare Company's theatre.
I didn't realise they were gonna be black or certain in modern times (but keeping the original script) until it began.
As a story it still help up and was well acted. As a story about a Danish prince that references that alot....breaks immersion.
>>7899590
I know right, shes clearly too pale to be italian and that clothing is not accurate.
Oh, sorry you just meant the black guy shouldn't be there because youre a racist and have literally no interest in historical accuracy.
>>7899590
Why is Hamlet not played by Danes? 10x worse.
Fuck off OP. You just don't like this because you don't like black people.
I'm not reading all the posts in this but surely someone has pointed out that in Shakespeare's time all the female roles were played by men. How historically accurate is that?
>>7899590
>Tyroneo and Juliet
>Why is this allowed, /lit/?
because romeo kills himself and never bangs juliet, so it's okay.
>>7899590
Where in the play does it specify that Romeo is white?
>Production doesn't use original pronunciation
totally fine with that
>Set looks nothing like renaissance Verona
totally fine with that
>There are a bunch of strangers in modern clothes sitting in seats and staring at the characters
totally fine with that
>Italian characters are played by non-Italians
totally fine with that
>Italian characters are speaking english
totally fine with that
>Characters are speaking in verse
totally fine with that
>I bought a ticket in the year 2016 and walked into a modern-style theatre and started watching people jump about in shakespearian garb
Totally fine with that
>Production casts a black actor as Romeo
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>7901299
yes this
kys OP
>>7901261
you got it backwards, if romeo was meant to be black it would be very out of the ordinary and the script would indicate it directly, like how in Othello it mentions he is a moor. The default is european, not african.
romeo is son of lord and lady montague, they are based on an actual Italian political family in the 13th century, the family is european not african.
in shakespeares day romeo was always played by a white actor.
>>7901314
He should be Italian too, then.
>>7901299
you forgot
>Juliet played by an actual female, not a young femboy in a wig
I think these 'modern changes' can be overlooked as minor details. but an african playing romeo is just there for shock value, to get easy publicity, it only harms the play and turns it into a farce
>>7901315
the actor should resemble and sound like an italian, so it's believable to the audience
>>7901321
>>Juliet played by an actual female, not a young femboy in a wig
Greeks pretty much did that.
>>7899590
>Shouldnt one expect at least an attempt at accurately depicting characters historically when performing plays?
You have no ideas how plays work right? Do you think every performance should be the same? Are you one of these guys that say that Glenn Gould is shit because his interpretations of Bach, Mozart etc. are different from the original?
One of the best performances I've seen was a complete modern version of Woyzeck where Woyzeck is a working poor instead of a soldier and his boss was the general.
>>7901409
I know quite a lot about plays~
>>7901427
Prove it.
>>7901449
I could~
Watching /pol/ get rinsed is so satisfying.
I can't believe the female character is played by a woman, this is not accurate at all.
is romeo supposed to be black, or is a black man trying to portray a white man? I'm confused.
>>7901559
women portraying women is pretty sensible
a black portraying a white is confusing
this is the kind of play you take your wife's boyfriend to
Shakespeare's plays have anachronisms in them anyway
>>7901571
in what way is it confusing? this character has been around for hundreds of fucking years. everybody in the world knows who romeo is. nobody in this play is going to fail to follow what's happening just because this performer is black
>>7902300
>>7902300
>this character has been around for hundreds of fucking years
that's the thing, is it supposed to be classic romeo, or is this some new take on romeo? Is the black guy supposed to be Italian or a new modern African Romeo, like Othello jr....
>>7902323
i understand using young boys to play females, back then it was a cultural thing, women weren't allowed to act, so they made young boys look like girls, with makeup and wigs.
But I don't see them giving this african man "white face" and trying to make him look white.
is this black guy supposed to be white, when I look at him am I supposed to suspend disbelief like when I see young-boys play female roles? or am I supposed to treat him as a new African Romeo, a thug or zulu version or something?
it's all so bizarre...it's like something out of Beckett
>>7899598
Shouldn't you be out phonebanking for Bernie whole your wife gets pounded by a person of diversity?
>>7902323
>>7901571
>>7901559
in shakespeare's time when a femboy played Juliet the director made sure he looked as girly as possible and wore makeup and a wig to make him look female. This is nothing like that, unless they powdered the african's skin and give him normal features and white people hair. But they aren't trying to pass him off as an italian, they are just leaving him as is.
This is like having a big, burly, bearded man play Juliet without any explanation.
>>7900716
trans folk are still too controversial. interracialism is just controversial enough
>>7900753
there are nerds and then there are people with a genuinely deep passion for the arts and letters who can elucidate their thoughts in an insightful manner
>>7902379
Fuck off
>>7901328
IT'S THE LAW
>>7902384
it's true though. compare interracial relationships on tv compared to representation of trans people. compare the amount of interracial couples irl to the amount of trans people
>>7902361
>normal features
nice
>>7901314
And Juliette should be a dude.
>>7899590
You people are to hung up on race.
Unless it's Othello the race of theperformers does not matter.
Each character could be of a diffrent race and it would change not one word of the script.
>>7902461
>a black King of the Scots
>>7902461
So when is Daniel Day Lewis starring in a Mandela biopic?
>>7902473
That has a racial focus so it wouldn't work.
Don't be dumb on purpose.
You could race swap the entire cast of othello.
Which has been done btw
>>7902472
Yeah so it's a play unless it's a focus of it one should be race blind.
>>7900927
Accurate to the role, you moron.
People get pissy about a white actor playing Othello.
>>7901409
Gould is bad because he plays as if he were in the comfort of his own living room, playing for friends, rather than playing for a studio.
You only think that perversion of Woyzeck is good because you're a middlebrow socialist that thinks himself highbrow.
>>7902487
which is stupid.
just because you have some psychological hangup that forces you to delude yourself into presenting yourself as being "post race" or "race blind" doesn't mean the objection to this bullshit is racist.
Either race swapping is okay or it isn't. Can't have it both ways. I'm not gonna have non Asians play characters like Mulan or Cao Cao the same way I oppose blacks playing European characters.
>>7902489
why? A whole lot of "should be" and not a single reason why.
>>7902503
It's no delusion race is mostly irrelevant to Shakespeare. Tell me how does race matter at all outside certain circumstances?
No you are a child things are not black and white like that.
If race is a central pillar of the story it can't be changed with out changing the story.
You also keep listing real or semi real people in the real world race can have an affect. On stage it really does not matter
The objection is centered on bigotry.
>>7902505
Race does not matter in a fantasy world.
>>7902529
seems to matter when it's white people assuming ethnic roles.
it's either okay or it isn't. which is it?
>>7902512
you've essentially said nothing.
>>7902542
It depends on whether or not race is pivotal to the story.
Only stupid people boil it down like you do
>>7902512
How is race irrelevant?
And the objection isn't centred on bigotry. It's based on fidelity to the source material.
also, the way you write your sentences is weird
>>7902549
stop appropriating white culture shitlord
race is pivotal because race is taxonomical description of phenotypes. That's why Samuel L Jackson didn't get to play Legolas, you humongous cuckold.
>>7902553
It Clearly is bigotry.
You can be faithful if you want, but it's not some sort of requirement to be Shakespeare.
Race does not change one word of dialogue or soliloquy.
>>7902556
Only white people can appropriate culture in a meaningful way.
>>7902552
No I mean you've said nothing of substance.
Not a single identifiable point backed by reasoning or logic.
Is race pivotal to Mulan? Is race pivotal to Beowulf? Is race pivotal to Anasi? Is race pivotal to characters from Yoruba myths?
Which is it?
>>7902560
congrats on getting a rise out of me you shitposting rusemaster
>>7902559
bigotry how? Prove with reasoning.
You're saying cultural and ethnic context doesn't matter in any situation?
>>7902563
We are talking about Shakespeare, bitch.
Race is pivotal to all the things you listed.
Shakespeare does not fall into to that category except in the case of othello.
>>7902570
>a black King of the Scots
>Asian Italian characters
>a Jew and Christians portrayed by blacks
have you even read any Shakespeare?
>>7902565
Then let me rephrase it. Only those in positions of power can actually appropriate culture. Oppressed peoples have the culture of their oppressor forced upon them.
>>7902570
anon, location and race is pretty much specified in all of Shakespeare's works.
Not only that, it's written for a specific audience, unless you're saying Shakespeare had the foresight of predicting his characters being played by ethnics in a multicultural new world.
>>7902569
Ffs read the God damn posts.
Race only matters in very specific contexts
Other wise the actors portraying the characters don't matter.
King lear could be black and his daughters be Mexican, Chinese and Russian and it would not factor at all in the telling of the story.
>>7902512
>On stage it really does not matter
It's about being true to the character. The actor should at least be made to resemble the character somehow.
Even Japanese people try to make their actors look european when they do Romeo & Juliet. pic related. They respect the source material.
Romeo isn't african, he's italian.
>bigotry
get off your high horse
>race isn't an issue
this play makes it an issue. It's like having a bearded man play Juliet without any effort to conceal his masculinity.
Now if this was an all black production, done in a black town, that would be fine, blacks can put on plays too and you gotta work with what you have. But this isn't the case. They are purposely inserting race into this play, and at the same time messing up Romeo's appearance
>>7902577
>mass immigration
>multiculturalism
>diversity
>"let's go be oppressed in a white country"
>?????????
>he thinks non whites are "oppressed"
>>7902576
The race of the actors have no bearing of the plot.
>>7902581
so yes, you're saying we should discard all cultural and ethnic contexts of narratives.
>he doesn't know King Lear is derived from the legend of pre Roman King of the Celts
>>7902584
>assuming the presupposition
>>7902584
agreed, what matters is the race they are portraying in their characters.
a white man can be made to look middle-eastern with the right make up, an asian can be made to look european with the right makeup and wigs. What matters is what they are trying to portray.
I have no problem with a black actor portraying a white character, as long as you modify the black guy's appearance to some degree, indicating he isn't supposed to be perceived as a black man, but as a white man.
>plot
characterization is also important, there's more to a play than just plot
>>7902582
It simply does not matter it neither takes away nor adds to anything.
The only reason it would matter is if you have a hang up on race.
What does it really change?
If you were blind you would never know
>>7902584
>physical descriptors have no relevance to narrative
why wasn't there an all black female production of Moby Dick?????? THIS IS CLEARLY OPPRESSION
>>7902588
>I have no problem with a black actor portraying a white character, as long as you modify the black guy's appearance to some degree, indicating he isn't supposed to be perceived as a black man, but as a white man.
they didn't do this in this play, they just left him black. They just shat on the source material for some reason, probably so libs could pat themselves on the back and talk about a new form of eurocentric fascism they overcame.
>>7902586
OK tell me how it changes anything.
>>7902588
why not just write new plays with black characters instead of creating a phony controversy?
or did I just answer my own question
>>7902584
It certainly changes how it is perceived and can be meaningful within the context of the society viewing the performance. Anything involving race has political and social implications.
>>7902588
None of this actually matters it only changes your narrow bigoted perception.
It is superficial.
>>7902594
seeing as how I've already demonstrated that cultural and ethnic context is important and plays as a form of literature don't exist in a vacuum, you're the one that needs to do the explaining.
>>7902591
Stop you are bejeweled get too absurd.
>>7902589
>If you were blind you would never know
I'm not blind though.
>Why does it matter?!!!! ARGH JUST BE COLOR BLIND IT'S THE CURRENT YEAR!!!
no. It matters a lot to me because:
#1 I value aesthetics, style and presentation
#2 accuracy of the script and characterization
for example, I want whoever plays Juliet to be somewhat attractive, if she was played by a 300lb fatty, covered in acne, I wouldn't be able to believe the romance, I wouldn't enjoy the play, it's not how I imagine Juliet, it's not how Juliet is portrayed traditionally.
Turning Romeo into a negro is similar.
>>7902606
You demonstrated nothing you simply stated it.
It's a play the words are what important.
You are filtering it through your perceptions.
>>7899796
It has to be a Black man and a white woman, though.
>>7902614
>plays are audiobooks
>>7902614
I've demonstrated it by getting you to admit that race is pivotal in stories
>>7902627
No I admitted that from the start.
But it's only pivotal where attention it brought to to it like othello or a biographical Context.
Otherwise race changes nothing substantive.
You reel race CAN be pivotal but is not always.
>>7902612
You are just a pedant with a nice strain of bigotry.
The Juliette they have I. The op is pretty meh.
I don't form presuppositions about the characters because I can't seem to find a reason for it to matter. Their behavior it what characterizes them.
>>7902639
>Their behavior it what characterizes them.
and their appearance.
maybe you're a woman or just really dim, but men are very visual, to us appearances have a big impact. If a Juliet was portrayed by an ugly crackwhore with brown teeth and bald spots it would really ruin the play even if she delivered her lines well
>bigoted
overusing this word indicates you're just trolling or perhaps mentally challenged
>>7902631
but you admitted that race is pivotal in stories like Mulan and Beowulf?
what do you mean by biographical context?
You're right, it's absolutely shameful that Juliet wasn't played by the troupe's youngest male actor. Will the SJW scourge stop at nothing to inflict its historical revisionism upon the rest of us?
>>7902645
You are a bigot. I don't think you are racist though.
Shakespeare is far to ingrained in western culture to be pinned in by most modern sensabilities.
How they look only changes their perception to you and people like you.
It makes no substantive difference. No dialogue is changes.
Your hangup is pure perception and it's a personal problem.
>>7902664
as are you. you're a bigot. Everybody is a bigot it seems.
>he thinks plays exist, and are meant to be performed in a vacuum
>>7902654
Well yes in beowulf is folklore he can't be black like shango can't be white.
Some one earlier mentioned Nelson Mandela being white.
>>7902664
if you have strong beliefs about anything, that just about makes you a bigot.
playing the bigot card is pointless
>>7902671
and King Lear as well as Macbeth are literally, LITERALLY European characters.
Your logic has no consistency.
>>7902672
Holy shit dude.
Is there anything you can't oversimplify?
Yeah, sure, let's have both of them be 14 years old. And we might as well stick to the script and make them fuck on stage, you know, for accuracy.
>>7902678
>a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions
It's not me holding these views, in case you haven't noticed. But keep having your phony outrage
>>7902679
>since we can't be 100% accurate why bother at all
>>7902677
It makes perfect sense. I have said more than once that their are some things where race is important.
I have also said that Shakespeare is so much a part of western culture it's pointless to try to restrict it.
>>7902682
They could still both be 14 year olds
>>7902680
I am using it in its racial context and you know it.
>>7902702
Bigot is not meaningless. You just don't like it being used on you. That's understandable.
It can be changed because it's Shakespeare not the actual mythology behind the play.
>>7902712
It's not like any joe dickhead can write a play derived from African myth and cast white actors
why is this allowed for European cultures?
>>7902702
The plays are not about their roles AS "Europeans". They are about their roles as rulers, as figures imbued with power and what they do with that power. On that note, all Shakespeare's characters are each of them glassy fragments of the human essence, and our interest in them doesn't lie who they supposedly 'were', 'historically', but in their character as such.
>>7902714
What's the problem?
The difference that race makes is only in your perception it lies nowhere else.
>>7902588
you don't need to modify the appearance
>>7902722
you're entitled to that interpretation but know that objection to this isn't """""racism""""""
wait, if you're going full deconstructionist, that could be said about any narrative.
>>7902723
race and by extension perception has significance, retard.
Are we all formless corporeal ideas and notions floating in space?
>>7902612
make your own production of romeo and juliet then faggot where you can have your faggot white men kissing other faggot white men in drag
>>7902645
>If a Juliet was portrayed by an ugly crackwhore with brown teeth and bald spots it would really ruin the play even if she delivered her lines well
maybe if you're a pleb who has no power of imagination and needs their hand held while they engage with any sort of art medium
stick to capeshit friend
>>7902734
blacks should just make their own plays, instead of stealing white roles. Is this not what you're saying?
>>7902733
Yes to you. But not on stage.
In the greater world but not on stage.
You choose the best actor you have at your disposal.
>>7902733
it's not deconstructionist. it's a common approach to art that has been around for centuries.
>>7902733
There's nothing 'deconstructionist' about my interpretation, which is uncontroversial to most of those in the business of writing and thinking about theatre and Shakespeare in particular.
As a curiosity, when was the last time you actually sat through a play? Do you, so to speak, have any real skin in this game?
>>7902737
why bother with a play? get a fucking audioplay
>>7902739
shakespeare should set his plays in england not steal them from italian history
>>7902740
>You choose the best actor you have at your disposal.
and also someone who fits the physical description of the character
>>7902746
because i'm not feigning interest in some limited and misinformed idea of accuracy
if i want to see a play i'll see a play. if you don't want alterations done to casting just watch romeo + juliet on repeat
>>7902751
why?
>>7899590
The old plays had men playing the women's part.
So no, just do whatever you faggot
>>7902751
Yes. Human
>>7899590
>historical accuracy
>from the playwright who thought Bohemia had a coastline and put a clock in Julius Caesar
>>7899638
yeah it does - two different worlds. Are you really this fucking retarded
>>7902761
>the english are italian
>>7902751
>the physical description of the character
Yes, please, cast these characters based on their description.
>>7902761
You didn't answer my question. When was the last time you saw a play?
When was the last time you were even in a theater?
>>7902761
>why is judas wearing contemporary costume reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee caravaggio is a deconstructionist lefty hack
>>7902768
waiting for godot, his majesty's theatre 2010 I believe.
Why is this relevant?
>>7902766
but 'whiteness' isn't an inherent part of the character
>>7902775
feeling clever with your false analogy?
>>7902774
You said they should be based on their physical description. That's a null category, as you can see. So now what?
>>7902774
you're dodging the obvious point m8
>>7902781
it's an assumed part of their character, and why the hell shouldn't it be?
for the record, I'm not white. I believe I mentioned that earlier.
>>7902782
how is it false?
>>7902779
You saw a Beckett six years ago, and you feel like you have standing to offer your putrid opinions on theatre here, anywhere, as if they matter?
>>7902787
well it's not like romeo is rapping his sonnets to a beat. the whiteness is still essentially there
but seriously a black man in whiteface wouldn't detract from a performance?
>>7902789
ethnicity of the character =/= prop
>>7902792
He'll probably appear kingly--but that shouldn't deceive you; he's anything but.
Why does the idea of racially-neutral casting bother you so much? Don't insult my intelligence by claiming you care about accuracy. This is theatre. The space of magic and myth. Fidelity is to the truth, not to your conception of it.
>>7902798
>historical inaccuracy isn't the same as historical inaccuracy
>>7902804
do I need to justify my dislike for "racially neutral casting"?
>>7902808
I'm trying to figure out why someone that sees one play every six years or so cares so, so deeply for this minute aspect of a craft that he apparently takes no other particular interest in.
>>7902792
>muh text
when was the last time you saw the entirety of a shakespearean play acted out? they always cut down on the text to get to the main point -- the morals and the tragedy are 'universal' in that anyone can act them out and still get the play. if you see hamlet (in abbreviated form) and you come out of it saying "it was excellent but i don't know why a danish king was black" then you're doing it wrong
>>7902808
It is wrong. The fact that you don't understand how inconsequential it is is wrong.
>>7902811
I'm asking you to, yes. At least we've gotten to the point where you're willing to admit it's a matter of personal taste--or distaste--and nothing to do with theatre itself.
>>7902808
i'm saying nothing about racism but what's wrong is that i doubt you have any concern for shakespeare or theatre except as some sort of cultural space where you can try to enforce your poorly-considered views on race
>>7902824
What changes other than you perception?
>>7902822
>cultural space where you can try to enforce your poorly-considered views on race
said without a shred of self awareness
you don't know my views about race, and the fact that you're imputing some imagine views is laughable and predictable.
>>7902824
You care enough to patronize practically never, even though the whole industry is shriveling to lack of sales.
>>7902836
I know you're a fraud and a troll.
So you're like practically everybody else.
>>7902842
but I've been repeatedly saying that race and by extension perception is a significant part of plays
and that my personal dislike for racially neutral casting is that it's more or less meant to be political.
I dislike it for both reasons
>>7902824
>why?
because a stage is a stage. there's no continuity between contemporary life and the play. what is established on the stage is taken to be the play itself. the play is only the actors who embody it because the text is dead. you just have to accept the 'canon' of the play as it is being acted at that time. if hamlet is black you better fucking believe hamlet is black. no point nitpicking about a person who didn't even exist. it's an alternate universe
>>7902846
so money buys you rights to comment on the industry?
>Why is this allowed, /lit/
Leftist-Marxists run the arts.
Nothing surprises me these days.
The Gospel According to Jesus, Queen of Heaven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNi119jqzFg
"I want to bring the play back now because all this still needs to be said. Prejudice, oppression and injustice are suffered by just about every trans person everywhere in the world and the global struggle against oppression of LGBT people is profoundly connected to the wider struggle for women's rights throughout the world."
>>7902836
Perceptions can easily be altered.
You should not be so slavish to them.
They are not of stone.
>>7902855
>race and by extension perception is a significant part of plays
Only for you. You just don't realize no one else cares.
>meant to be political.
In some cases, certainly. But again, if you knew anything about this business--which you don't, so, rather, if you were to learn anything you'd be rather shocked at just how little 'political' consideration goes into your typical casting reel.
>>7902831
yeah it's pretty hard to tell what your views on race are from you getting defensive at the idea someone called you a racist when they didn't
>>7902859
agree to disagree, this argument is pointless because we have fundamentally different assumptions and starting points.
I say plays have a meta significance in relations to both ethnic and cultural context and that they don't exist in a vacuum.
You clearly think otherwise.
Neither of us are going to bridge this gap.
>>7902860
No, but my direct participation in the industry as an actor and producer does.
>>7902855
>perception is a significant part of plays
for plebs
>>7902867
be smug all you want, but I don't think it's so weird or indicative of anything that I should be defensive from being cast as a racist.
>>7902861
why would marxists make cultural products?
>>7902882
You're boring me. Good night.
>>7902869
in that case you could probably agree -- historicity aside -- that casting romeo as black is a good idea in that it gives emphasis to how much of a forbidden romance he and juliet have because it plays on the controversy of interracial relationships in contemporary society.
i think that's a pretty neutral interpretation.
>>7902864
my word, you'd think I said "women and niggers stay out of stages"
It's either this or a black person writes a friendly multiracial play about the struggles of black people that only makes it to stage because everyone expects black people to write about specifically black issues in a non-confrontational and inclusive way but no one actually pays any attention to it because "it's a black people play."
>>7902885
Do you at least agree that the opposition is also justified?
>>7902892
well if it's all about perception then what difference would it be whether romeo was black or all the monatgues wore red and the capulets wore blue?
>>7902896
i can understand it but i think theatre is a lot more than just rehashing the same play in the same way year in and year out, especially in a society that doesn't care about theatre at all.
>>7902893
not true. I watched a multi racial production of Pinter and was fine with it.
>>7899590
>implying Shakespeare was ever historically correct
>implying race is of an relevance in such basic narratives
>implying Juliet should be Polish
>>7902897
but ethnicity is a huge factor in perception
>>7902901
that's on the industry then. I WANT to go to great plays written by nonwhites and with a multi ethnic cast. I just don't think casting ethnics in Shakespearean classics is the way to go about "revitalising" the industry.
>>7902907
that's my point
>>7902913
I get it, because costuming and setting can be changed (change in perception) why not race as well?
They're all important. It's not like I'm giddy and happy about anachronisms and incorrect whatever in productions of classics.
>>7902912
well i don't mean to revitalise it but at least keep it relevant. shakespeare is more or less an acting institution and it seems to be an unnecessary barrier for the number of black actors to have their only leading shakespeare role to be othello. what kind of range can someone demonstrate with that one role?
>>7902921
I don't see why that should be the reason for black actors performing shakespearean roles.
Are you okay with Shakespearean hegemony in the theatre world?
And like I said before, I'm more or less okay with an all black cast. I lived in Korea for a while and had no problem going to Korean productions of Shakespeare
>>7902928
it's one among many reasons. and yes i am fine with it since it allows for minor subversions that still make the material interesting without actually challenging that hegemony. you can get pretty creative working within a single framework. i'd rather see something a little more challenging than just having a black romeo but baby steps i guess.
>>7901321
Colour-blind acting is not shocking on the English stage at all because it's very common.
I don't think anyone here actually goes to see plays. The only time I've ever see someone do an Elizabethan dress shakespeare is in student productions. It's just old hat for theatre audiences. People don't go see Shakespeare plays now to see the authoritative, canonical play, but what they do with it.
>>7902938
again, agree to disagree. I'd rather see original black plays or original multi ethnic plays
>>7902912
I think your understanding of plays and the way they are staged is just wrong. You keep calling it a classic like this is some sort of holy thing not to be touched, like the play should be an accurate representation of Shakespeare first staging, a reproduction. That's not what it's like. It's not reenactment. We're not gonna put men in wigs or have bears do tricks for the plebeian masses.
There's the basic text written by Shakespeare, but the execution, that is the place, the time, the actors, the sound, the stage, the costumes, even the language, the whole artistic vision can be completely different. Being a director for a play is very much like being a film director. You have artistic vision, the play is just the screenplay. You take and you adapt it to your needs and you change a lot and you make it yours and something different. Except in theater it's completely acceptable and normal directors to use the same screenplay over and over and over again which really necessitates having a strong artistic vision unless you're trying to bore some school children to sleep with an "historically accurate" rendition.
>>7902928
You realize blacks aren't some weird minority in Britain? If Koreans just accept whatever actors they have around they end up with a fully Korean cast I assume. If Brits do that, especially in big cities, you end up with a wide variety of ethnicities, some visible different like blacks and some just not so obviously different like Poles, Russians, Greeks, etc.
>>7902968
read the thread friendo
>You realize blacks aren't some weird minority in Britain? If Koreans just accept whatever actors they have around they end up with a fully Korean cast I assume. If Brits do that, especially in big cities, you end up with a wide variety of ethnicities
What are you getting at?
jesus fuck can the /tv/ autists please leave no one cares about your all-white star wars fantasies
>>7902982
you're being hostile because you are forced to defend your position and you are not used to doing that.
>>7902997
you're being a nerd cos ur a FUCKIN NEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRD faggot
Just as an aside: he was a shite Romeo. He over-stressed his lines like crazy while everyone else in the production went for a much more natural flow. Juliet was cute though.
>>7902997
you are making this pathetic argument about historical accuracy when you clearly find the interracial relationship provocative in itself
but you can't admit to that because that would mean there's a point to this casting albeit not a very profound one
>>7903017
haven't said anything to that effect. did you read the thread?
>>7903016
>casting according to the demographics of the country
lol what the fuck
why are you dodging my point? and what does demographics have to do with racially inconsistent casting?
I'm not saying the entirety of the theatre should be a history museum and I haven't said anything like that. I'm saying cultural and ethnic context is important to plays by Shakespeare and the like. If you bothered to read the posts, you'd see that I saw a multi ethnic production of some other play where race wasn't an issue
>>7902997
oh hey let's see what's going on on the cuckoldry analysis board
>>>/tv/68030746
>>7903031
I hope for the second run of this in a year or two they make the whole cast black. The reaction to this has been hilarious.
>>7899590
it's supposed to demonstrate that race is a social construct, which it is of course
>>7902806
people get hung up on race and gender more than anything else cause they're highly politicized
>"I need everything the way it's supposed to be please neatly keep everything in the boxes they belong"
>>7899880
Looks like an italian man and a white woman to me, white washing like this is not okay
>>7901226
No i started this thread for the "italians arent white" because im a shitposter :^) you were on point for the first half of your post, then the sjw in you took over
>no plays or movie where MLK or Malcolm X is white
c'mon its the current year. Race is a social construct. There is only one race: the human race :)
>>7899590
Yeah and while we're at it why not have the females be played by males since to make it a historically accurate depiction of the characters.
>>7899590
The question is not who will allow me, but who will stop me.
>tfw a class mate from Iran played Oden in a class play
>tfw he nailed the role
>>7902577
Why is /lit/ so fucking reddit?
>>7904148
Laughing very hard
