What does /lit/ think of this?
I thought it was awesome. Love the way the writing in the boxes always had some visual echo in the art, for example, somebody says "Chew on that" and there's a chicken leg with a bite mark in it in the foreground. Stuff like that. Also how parallel stories would comment on each other, like when Dr. Manhattan is in the TV studio and the dialogue there is "incidentally" commenting on Night Owl and Silk Spectre's fight with the thugs in the alley and the subsequent sexual tension. Lots of cool stuff. Not to mention the chapter that is, in a number of ways, symmetrical. A host of things which show that a lot of thought and deliberation went into both the writing and the art. A smart, beautiful comic.
>>7891746
Good, but the sort of thing that achieves a bad effect, in that now a good 70% of comic writers are out there trying to deconstruct the nature of superheroes, with none of them even getting halfway to the success that Watchmen does it.
>>7891819
comics are being taught in american lit courses now
what we define as literature in form is changing
Watchmen and V for Vendetta are the only graphic novels I have ever read and both are fantastic. Alan Moore is a genius. Can't wait for Jerusalem
>>7891819
Watchmen is one of the top 100 novels of the 20th century
>>7891819
You know dam well that co is full of manchildren who wanna talk about capeshit and Steven Universe
>>7891838
This. Jerusalem and Delillo's Zero K will be the two most important literary works released this year. The former especially is going to be a fucking tank.
>>7891838
>>7891857
Jerusalem scares me slightly - one way or the other it'll be the biggest expression yet of Moore's weirdness but I don't know if that'll add up to a coherent whole or not. Voice of the Fire worked because of its focus on Noarthampton, but it sounds like this one's going to be really rambly.
>kids still think watchmen is great
reread it 3 or 4 times. it gets old.
the dark knight returns is a much better hero comic.
moore's best work was From Hell, but the only reason THAT was good was eddie campbell (the author of alec and bacchus)
irl Moore is an edgy atheist fedoralord who unironically practices magic and has a kitsch love of little pagan idols
10/10 best manga ever
>>7892014
It's not "cast a fireball" magic though, more magic-as-metaphor for the power of storytelling. That's how I interpret his mutterings, anyway, I think he just does the snake god bit to fuck with people.
>>7891814
Watchmen somewhat deconstructed superheroes to their very nature, archetype and mechanic while respecting the medium.
Like, Nite Owl is basically the optimism of Superman but with the gadgets of Batman, Rorschach is Batman without the gadgets pushed to the extreme, Ozymandias is Batman's intellect and being his own character. Or Doctor Manhattan being Superman but who simply has no care about the human race.
I still think that the movie's ending was slightly better, and the murder of the fat guy when they're trying to get to Rorschach was better done in the movie. In the comic, Rorschach just ties the fat guy's hands and he has to die, and it makes no sense. In the movie, they have to saw off his hands to get to him, which makes a lot more sense and is more gruesome.
>>7891838
Have you read From Hell? I think it's his best. V for Vendetta is somewhat meh to me, especially with the ending.
>>7892014
>an edgy atheist fedoralord who unironically practices magic and has a kitsch love of little pagan idols
What? You can't be an atheist and pagan at same time. I think he is right about magic, just read Promethea. Sorry if it hurts your Christian or "scientific" (implying that you are a fedora edgelord who denounces all religion and spirituality with "muh logic")beliefs. Either you can not stomach that people can belief in something else than you are believing or that people belief at all. Sad either way.
It's a bit more of a traditional comic book but I've been reading Moore's Swamp Thing and its fucking great.
>watchmen
wew lad. It's a good comic for sure, but it isn't the only one out there and Moore isn't some amazing genius.
What does /lit/ think of Gotham Central, Hellboy (+ the rest of the Mignolaverse) and Trillium? They seem like the sort of books /lit/ could appreciate.
>>7891838
Read From Hell
>>7892031
It kills me how wrong you are about everything. No wonder Moore is a recluse. Dr Manhattan - Superman comparison is legit offensive. Please don't ever post again
pomo bullshit
>>7892404
Idiot
>>7892407
>hurr it's not pomo
pick up a book instead of comics next time kiddo
>>7892031
>DR manhattan
>like superman
you missed the entire fucking point of Dr manhattan and superman both. they are nothing alike in ideology and beliefs.
manhattan simply does not care about petty "good" vs "evil" bullshit on the earth. i doubt he even believes in these spooks. to him all of it is pointless, stupid and unworthy of his time. he and the universe do not give a shit about the exasperating and petty politics and drama of the earth.
superman is the exact opposite in those terms. he has a very strong idea of what is good and dedicates his ENTIRE life to protecting what is good and helping humanity.
dr manhattan and superman are poles apart man what the fuck are you even saying?
-----------
roscharch is the right wing guy with a strong morality but no powers. seeing so much evil and filth and being unable to do much about it is probably a cause of his brutality and anger and pain. he longs for a day when the decadent world looks up to him in pain and asks for help while he simply refuses and tells them "no". because that day "good" would finally have the upper hand.
---------------
ozymandais is fucking nothing like batman. ozymandais is a STRICT utilitarian and does not mind killing off millions to save billions. he does not give a shit about ethics. his only end is to ensure a utilitarian survival of humanity and his intellect, strength and capabilities are incomparably higher as compared to batman.
all these superheroes reflect the strong conflict in themes of nihilism, utilitarianism and ethics. all these heroes have their own fucked up version or idea of society and how it should be "bettered" and the comedian saw it for the joke all of it was and it drove him into a depressive madness.
I'm not really into western comics but Watchmen was amazing desu
Swamp Thing is also very good. It's comic bookish, of course, but it's more Moore for sure.
I'm pleased to see that /lit/ has a generally favorable opinion of Moore. He is one of my favorite writers in any medium and in my opinion one of the greatest minds of our time. He's like our generation's Aleister Crowley. A true icon. Promethea is his masterpiece. A must read for anyone with even a vague interest in magick and the occult.
>>7892425
You missed the point of that post, anon. You're not actually disagreeing with it except insofar as you >imply that the two characters have nothing at all in common, which is dumb because they both have superpowers.
>>7892425
>implying dr manhattan doesn't care
>forgetting about the thermodynamic miracle scene
You missed his character arc boyo
>>7892672
i almost entirely agree with this post including everything he said about watchmen and the world war.
what i do not agree with is his claim of evangelion being less of a deconstruction than kung fu panda. he seems to have missed the entire point of evangelion or has a very limited and shallow understanding of it. i don't blame him though. few people "get" evangelion.
>>7892681
I love Evengelion. Please, do tell what it's about.
>>7892680
i get that he eventually comes around because he sees some sort of beauty after being moved by laurie's pain. so yeah he eventually does give a shit but ideologically he is quite far from superman.
>>7892692
since you love evangelion so much, why don't you explain? do you really think that the themes in eva begin and end at a realistic depiction of the message: "man up, be the hero, save the world" ?
>>7892691
I have yet to read Lost Girls, though I recently purchased a beautiful hardcover copy. Looking forward to it. However, as an occultist myself, I doubt that any comic will ever top Promethea for me.
>>7891838
He also wrote a great lovecraftian comics, not many people talk about it but it's really great.
Not on par with other of his stuff but if you enjoy cosmic horror it's the best thing.
>>7892721
Link to that video?
No, it doesn't have any of the occult stuff in it, it's just page after page of colourful porn. I have that same edition.
I love watchmen. It's incredibly detailed, both the story and the visuals.
>>7892719
I wasn't challenging you. I just wanted to hear what you were thinking.
Grant Morrison > Alan Moore
Discuss
>>7892335
Swamp Thing rocks.
>>7892844
go to bed grant, you're shit
>>7892844
pretty sure even morrison doesn't fool himself into thinking this
>>7892735
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlcG-rkiuIc
>>7892692
not the one you're talking to. what i gather is that it's about the maturation of a young boy, sexually and otherwise. the "eve's" are the pilot's ideas of themselves, and these ideas cause them suffering when they come into contact with reality, i.e. angels.
you might notice that angels are good guys "irl" but not in the series, this question itself is asked in the show, the serious answer being that they're not the bad guys, simply a threat to their false notions of themselves and must therefore be stopped "or the world ends"--or so it would seem from that position.
the boy has big daddy issues and won't take the step into adulthood. he elevates his father into an impossible position of authority which he seeks to please. the boy must come to understand that he himself has done the elevating--that the position his father inhabits (his role as "my father") has been created by himself, and through this realisation realise his own independence, thereby maturing as a person. this is why the father intentionally distances himself, because he knows that if he offers congratulations to his son he will only cling closer to him as an authority. one of the eps deals with this directly.
"why do you pilot the eve?" is a recurring question with the answer--"you should learn to live without it," however this cannot be understood without diving into the eve, piloting it and suffering the pain that comes with it--simply abandoning the endeavour would be a turning inwards into himself away from reality--away from the angels.
in the final scenes we see the consequences of the boy's maturation. the fantasies have been sublimated (made part of his character and surpassed) and so we find him a normal, well adjusted boy, who can be comfortable in his sexual feelings.
read up on psychoanalysis. would recommend reading "two essays on analytical psychology" by cg jung as intro. i also forgot all the characters names but i don't care desu
>>7893110
i also have to add that having read rilke's dunno elegies recently it wouldn't surprise me if it played a part in its inspiration. here:
Who, if I cried, would hear me among the angelic
Orders? And even if one of them suddenly
pressed me against his heart, I should fade in the strength of his stronger existence. For Beauty’s nothing
but beginning of Terror we’re still just able to bear,
and why we adore it so is because it serenely
disdains to destroy us. Each single angel is terrible.
>>7892031
>>7892425
You two should read upon the creation of Watchmen, in particular the Charlton Comics part before mouthing off.
>>7892730
I sure hope that elder sign on the cover was made by a know nothing edge lord.
>>7892844
Why not both.
That said, if we could have only one, Alan Moore would be the obvious choice.
>>7893110
thanks!
I genuinely think it's a masterpiece. The part were rorchark prefers to die instead of accepting the way the world works...straight to the feels man.
I dabbled a little bit into comics having read Transmetropolitan: Watchmen, Swampthing, V for Vendetta, and The Sandman. In principle I like the medium at least a fairly well but in execution (based on those that I read) it seems very teenage orientated. Just as in there are books for children, and there is YA this is the somewhat more sophisticated equivalent for older teenage boys. None of them seemed better than merely good. They are not the great works of Joyce, Murasaki, or Proust. They are seem more like the middling works of Orwell.
>>7893229
perhaps in subject matter but I say Watchmen is just as maximalist for a comic book as you can get.
There is more than just the words or the story, but the way in which the art and the story are interwoven together. What I mean is that it uses every single possible angle you can use in the traditional comic book format and tries to use it in the most detailed way possible.
I love the use of symbolism in the visual story-telling as well. I especially love the tiny little details you can miss in the artwork the first time around. Like one of the bodies in NY incident is holding out a watch, stuff like that.
>>7893229
That's because people like you seen to focus on the medium and skin rather than the content. You take out the superhero costumes in watchmen an replace them with 19 century Russians and you have a Dostoevsky novel in termof deep.
>>7893262
I wouldn't say Watchmen is "DEEP" but I think it's a good introduction to some heavy stuff. Each character is some form of philosophy or world view that isn't exactly pleasant.
Matsumoto takes the good/bad dichotomy further in No 5 imho.
It also is a lot more poetic.
Do I need to Know about capeshit before reading the watchmen?
>>7893262
I didn't bother reading thousands upon thousands of pages to just pay attention to the pretty pictures. There is content there, and for a teenage aimed audience it is pretty good but to compare any of them to Dostoevsky is ridiculous. The Sandman really is existentialism lite with some Borges thrown in. But that's the thing, it's existentialism lite. They are watered down for their audience. I don't really know what would be possible in the medium, only that the selection I have read are not great, only good.
>>7893317
I didn't and I was fine. I think the sort of thing it deconstructs about superheroes are themes so far forward in the public consciousness that culturally osmotic knowledge will be enough.
>>7893328
I agree about the sandman part, but this thread is about Watchmen. I also agree comics shouldn't be compared to Dostoevsky.
You seem pretty short-minded though, just because an artistic medium is different doesn't necessarily mean everything made for it is for adolescents. Although you would be right if you said most of it was.
But your snide word usage of "pretty pictures" makes you seem like the type of people who would have said movies could never be a proper artform back in the day.
>>7891854
This
Other than Watchmen and V For Vendetta i've only read a grand total of 6 capecomics, all of them being Batman, before i decided it wasn't my cup of tea
And yet, because of osmosis and hanging out on /co/ i know more about the Marvel and DC mythos than your average MCUfags do
I really wish there was a /cape/ board to contain them
Watchmen is a great comic, but at the end of the day, that's all it is. A comic with a vagina monster.
>>7893328
Why ridiculous? Dostoevsky novels are about how people react to a world without god.
Watchmen is about how people react to a world with a (indifferent) good. It's just using a Moore modern medium.
Your like one of those who looks down on comics heroes but raves about Greek mythology without realizing they're the same thing aren't you? Medium bias.
>>7893229
hey now orwell's works are fine. just cause you read 1984 in high school doesn't make it a bad or "middling" book. it's in fact a fascinating study on totalitarian thought. even our friend tommy p wrote the foreword to a recent edition.
>>7893154
I think both Derleth's and Lovecraft's Elder Sign are present in the novel.
>>7893329
I did, and I think No 5 is better.
>>7893359
>Your like one of those who looks down on comics heroes but raves about Greek mythology without realizing they're the same thing aren't you?
Holy shit the delusion is real.
I don't know but I literally just bought it from my local shop 2 minutes ago.
It's great if you're 12 years old.
But it's no substitute for Dante or Milton or the other works we should be discussing on a board called /lit/.
>>7893359
>Dostoevsky novels are about how people react to a world without god.
Have you even read any Dostoevsky?
Even if that were true there's much more to a novel than an eight word synopsis of "what it's about."
>>7893359
>Why ridiculous?
Because they are on different planes of quality
>Dostoevsky novels are about how people react to a world without god.
No. Some are. Most aren't. TBK and Demons, but the other big ones aren't and none of the shorter ones that I know of are.
>Watchmen is about how people react to a world with a (indifferent) good.
Maybe he is, but you can reduce him to a sentence much easier than you can reduce Dostoevsky.
>Your like one of those who looks down on comics heroes but raves about Greek mythology without realizing they're the same thing aren't you? Medium bias.
Greek myth isn't fundementally retarded. They have a mythological worldview and everything going on in it makes sense for the author and now for us. People in costumes fighting crimes versus war heroes? No, just no.
>>7893666
>and everything about it makes sense... for us
I was with you man, why'd you fuck it up.
>>7893686
You can take the position of a greek and see it from his perspective and it'll make sense to you because of it. Take a few axioms and it's a thing while super hero comics pretend to be about the real world when they are serious.
>>7893666
I really think there isn't much.I'm sayig this as a Dostoevsky fan. Raskolnikov kills because he wante to bean ubermench. All his major novels deal which how people react to the absurdity of life.
> greek myh isnt stupid
Yeah they were not primarely kids stories with people whith exceptional features doing exceptional feats.
>>7893797
>I really think there isn't much.
TBK alone is about a bunch of other stuff, The Idiot is even more apart the "world without God" and he didn't talk about how people react to absurdity of life, it's how people who think life is absurd come to realise God exists and loves them and life has meaning. And that's a heavy oversimplification. Gambler, White Nights, Poor Folk all deal with other things.
The death of Hollis was pretty gut-wrenching
>>7893929
One of the better parts of hack snyders adaptation, and its not even in the theatrical release.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZSj_UA9_u4
>>7893480
In engaging him so thoroughly when you could have just told him that the cast of Watchmen were stand ins for Charlton Comics DC had by then acquired but wouldn't let Moore use.
>>7893945
>punch
>punch
>whack
>karate chomp
>slow-mo
>not so subtle hero music
Zack is an infuriating film maker. There's talent there, he certainly knows how to frame a shot and half of the time he makes interesting creative decisions. But underneath it all dwells the heart of an adolescent, that lacks an understanding of subtext and subtlety, that does things more often because "they look cool" rather than "because they make sense" or even "because they suit the material".
It's hard to like him, it's hard to hate him. Yet because of that, adaptions like Watchmen and a string of ill edited trailer like moments we got in BvS, linger negatively in your mind, because it wouldn't have taken much to elevate them to a higher level of excellence.
I feel he should try his hand at arthouse movies now, leave adaptions and blockbusters alone for awhile.
>>7894107
yeah but these Charlton characters are DC rip-offs to begin with. This is exactly why Moore wanted to use them.
So the idiot above talking about superman re: doc manhattan is not entirely off-base.
>>7892672
I was under the impression that deconstruction, if it could be said to mean anything in less than an essay, meant that that people have their own notion of abstract concepts and that these notions can't be communicated.
>>7894231
>the idiot above..
u wot m8?
>>7891746
I think that de-construction is a meme and that Watchmen is well constructed and entertaining pulp that's been blown up by idiots of teenage sensibilities with no idea what they're talking about.
I can't seem to find it but that one weird poet/writer/critic with the unpublished 'In Search of Lost Time"-length masterpiece sitting in his basement wrote a very good review of it, addressing the work itself and the ridiculous cult following it's picked up over the years.
I like comic books and have read a fair few and Watchmen doesn't really stand out that much to me. And anybody who calls them anything other than comic books is kidding themselves.Patricians read The Phantom.
I'm glad you're all actually having in-depth discussion and all, but
NOT /LIT
>>7893827
And guess what? Watchmen also deals with a whole lot of other themes as well.
>>7893480
Not that anon, but for one thing you misunderstood the statement
>Doctor Manhattan being Superman but who simply has no care about the human race
to a really bizarre extent. You told anon s/he 'missed the entire fucking point' and then proceeded to elaborate how Superman cares about people while Manhattan doesn't, which is exactly what anon said in the first place.
>>7893666
>No, just no.
solid argument there, doesn't at all sound like what an edgy contrarian 16 year old would say
>>7897532
Thanks, I'm glad you see it like I do.
>>7891746
God-tier graphic novel
The movie is also pretty good
>>7892681
>what i do not agree with is his claim of evangelion being less of a deconstruction than kung fu panda.
I wouldn't go as far as saying it has less deconstructive elements than Kung Fu Panda, but, keeping in the realms of anime, I would definitely say that something like Sailor Moon is a more serious and encompassing deconstruction of its subject matter than Eva is.
>>7892719
>do you really think that the themes in eva begin and end at a realistic depiction of the message: "man up, be the hero, save the world" ?
Certainly they don't, but it's still not wrong to say that Eva on the whole is much less appropriate to be called a deconstruction than many people claim it is, even if it does portray the themes it has in more complex ways than that.
>"why do you pilot the eve?" is a recurring question with the answer--"you should learn to live without it,"
That strikes me as an odd interpretation. Why this specifically?
>in the final scenes we see the consequences of the boy's maturation. the fantasies have been sublimated (made part of his character and surpassed) and so we find him a normal, well adjusted boy, who can be comfortable in his sexual feelings.
I assume you're talking about the Omedetou! scenes here and not EoE. EoE is much more directly about sublimation, but you could hardly call anything about it well adjusted.
>>>/tv/67991015
/tv/ loves Snyder
>>7894135
>I feel he should try his hand at arthouse movies now
You act like he already hasn't.
better question,
what does /lit/ think of THIS?
>>7891746
Really good, far and away the best graphic novel I've read.
>>7899303
Oh my god this is /lit/ you can't post that here
>>7899236
I liked that movie. It was like a video game just without all the tiresome interactivity.
>>7893359
You're retarded
>>7891808
The little details are absolutely what make it.
I wasn't surprised to find out that the script that Moore handed to Gibbons was like a phone book with every angle, light source, transition etc. etc. described in intense detail.
>>7892014
>he thinks anything is better than swamp thing
>>7891854
How is Watchmen not capeshit, genius?
>>7901668
It's very critical of capes. The Boys feature capes but they're critical of it too.
>>7901688
So any Garth Ennis (or Darick Robertson) work isn't capeshit? Because I don't see how he changed his opinion of superheroes from The Boys to The Punisher/Fury/Hitman
>>7894135
How would you have directed that scene?
>>7903524
Sort of like the home invasion scene in A Clockwork Orange.
Neither demonizing or heightening the violence, just letting it play out mundanely and let the horror of it seep through that.
No hero music, but perhaps some subjectivity from Hollis flashing back to his hero days in more of an escape of the situation rather than his going out with a bang moment.
>>7893518
You never read those. Now be silent.
>>7893694
nigga you are not making any sense
>>7895757
>In Search of Lost Time
I'm interested in this review. Pls find it. Or gib more clues.
>>7905180
ISoLT is really all over the place.
What is /lit/core manga?
>>7905447
Punpun
>>7904562
Nice. I like it. I think you and me probably have a similar taste in films. After reading that I want to recommend Come and See. If you can handle so moments being a little slow than I think you would like it.
>>7905447
Any answer other than Devilman is probably wrong.
>>7905180
The guy's really weird, has reviewed just about everything, seems to consider himself roughly on par with Shakespeare and has some interviews with famous figures on youtube. Trying to find him now, but having no luck. I also remember that he talked some shit about Harold Bloom and called him an unnecessary pope of the religion of Shakespeare.
>>7906404
It's not Dan Schneider/Cosmoetica, is it?
bumpu
>>7901795
I didn't say it wasn't capeshit. It does feature superheroes after all. Rather, that it was critical of it.
