what is dosto's grand inquisitor saying?
does ivan believe people must be guided to a good life where alyosha does not?
As far as I understood it, Ivan's argument is about the burden of free will. He is saying that if God exists, he condemns humanity by granting them free will and at the same time creating them in such a way that the vast majority of people will not be able to forestall earthly pleasure for heavenly gain. God is cruel to do this, because he consigns most people to hell. So yeah, in my opinion Ivan is saying that it is in people's best interests for them to be guided (or even forced) to live a good life. But we don't know how sincere he is in this argument because he is mostly atheistic, his views always seem to be in constant contradiction. I don't think we really hear a counter-argument from Alyosha as such, but Jesus kissing the Grand Inquisitor on the lips, and Alyosha repeating this act to Ivan (and also Zosima falling to Dmitri's feet earlier on), is a simple act of human kindness and virtue which symbolises that the spiritual life doesn't always make sense in a way that pleases rational human argument.
That was just my interpretation of it, and I've only read it once. You'll probably find more detailed and well thought out explanations elsewhere online, I'm sure plenty of essays have been written on this very subject.
>>7883853
Christ rejected the three temptations of the devil so that man could be free. Freedom, however, in an existential sense, means more responsibility for people to deal with. The Inquisitor tells Jesus that people do not want such responsibility. People simply want to be well fed and happy. They do not care of freedom, nor wish to deal with the consequences of having such freedom. Therefore, the inquisitor seeks to keep the people compliant by subtle means of control. By deceiving the people, you let them live happy lives, keeping them aloof to the traumatic truth. It's basically Brave New World mentality. Keep the populace happy by appeasing their conscience and they will forfeit their freedoms to you. As D writes: "anyone who can appease a man's conscience can take his freedom away from him."
>>7885059
Yes but how about the great inquisitor ? He doesn't seem to have a problem with his freedom. I believe that Dosto is implying that maybe god shouldn't have given people free will, but first he had to ensure the basics ( food, etc..) because in order to be free human must be alive.Also D says that human is a rebel and from the moment that he is, and god has made him, what does God want from him now ( implying again the second coming of jesus) that he has made his choices? Is he blackmailing us ? I think Ivan doesn't believe that forcing someone for his own good is necessary wrong but ( being an atheist) he does not want that.He wants to make his own choices even if they are wrong.He is using his free will...I don't know if i am wrong but that's the way i read it
>>7885194
remember what the inquisitor states: "We have taken the sword of Caesar, and in taking it, of course, have rejected Thee and followed him."
in other words, the inquisitor is against christ.
he states: " And all will be happy, all the millions of creatures except the hundred thousand who rule over them. For only we, we who guard the mystery, shall be unhappy. There will be thousands of millions of happy babes, and a hundred thousand sufferers who have taken upon themselves the curse of the knowledge of good and evil. Peacefully they will die, peacefully they will expire in Thy name, and beyond the grave they will find nothing but death. But we shall keep the secret, and for their happiness we shall allure them with the reward of heaven and eternity."
similarly alyosha sums it up, saying: "It's simple lust of power, of filthy earthly gain, of domination-something like a universal serfdom with them as masters-that's all they stand for. They don't even believe in God perhaps. "
ivan then states: "But allow me to say: do you really think that the Roman Catholic movement of the last centuries is actually nothing but the lust of power, of filthy earthly gain?"
indeed, the inquisitors don't believe in god. they are filling people heads with wonderful lies and illusions, letting them believe they are being saved when, in fact, they are leading them to nothing but death and destruction.
>>7885225
also, alyosha also states: "Your Inquisitor does not believe in God, that's his secret!""
ivan admits this, stating: ""What if it is so! At last you have guessed it. It's perfectly true, it's true that that's the whole secret..." and that "And so, convinced of this, he sees that he must follow the counsel of the wise spirit, the dread spirit of death and destruction, and therefore accept lying and deception, and lead men consciously to death and destruction, and yet deceive them all the way so that they may not notice where they are being led, that the poor blind creatures may at least on the way think themselves happy. "
>>7885225
but if they followed the devil, how can they be unhappy ? how can they suffer in the earth while that's what they want? So either they are lying about their sadness or something else that i don't get it.
>>7885257
They suffer because they know the traumatic truth of the situation at hand. They are no longer blissfully ignorant or unawares of what is happening. Awareness of the actual world and how it functions is a burden to bear. Most cannot handle such a burden, and would rather live their lives surrounded by comfortable lies and illusions. The inquisitor can no longer do this since he has seen the reality of the situation.
