Is Brave New World actually a dystopia?
The people are happy, there's no war or hunger. The world state is stable, the police aren't brutal (they are actually kind) and enemies of the state aren't put down. They are given the option of an island to live in, and are not persecuted at all. People outside the world state are allowed to live their lives unmolsted.
Sure the culture may be strange to is, but if you look at it from the view of ethical relativism, the people all legitimately love the culture, and for reasons unlike 1984.
How is this a dystopia?
>>7875825
It's a fairly divisive issue. I think it ultimately comes down to perspective, from our perspective it's dystopic, but to the average BNW citizen it's utopic.
>>7875840
This is where I stand on it, thought it has been a long time since I read the book. The thing that made it a dystopia for me was the lack of choice the people had as to where they would end up
>>7875840
I feel like that is what makes BNW utopia. Besides, even those that don't like the WS live good lives
>>7875858
Sure but in the end they're always happy with where they end up
>>7875825
Brave New World is objectively better than our present reality. Whether it's dystopic or not is of course down to definitions, but it is a hell of a lot better than reality.
>>7875867
I guess, but would they be if they could understand it wasn't their choice that others had it better?
>>7875877
Does it upset you that you have no choice that others have it better than you?
>>7875882
Not particularly, but given the choice would I choose an easier and more fulfilling life? Sure I would
>>7875896
For them because of their conditioning, they know exactly how their future I determined, they know about the mind control, and they're ok with it. It's a very different way of thinking
The only people who consider it dystopic are first world middle and upper class people who already live that kind of life but still consider themselves precious unique individuals. For the large parts of the world that suffer from all kinds of material deprivations in addition to war and violence, BNW is undoubtedly an improvement.
>>7875825
It's dystopic because they aren't free to feel unhappy. They aren't free to feel much of anything other than their constant state of sedation.
>>7876021
They are, the ones that want to feel unhappy can go to Edgy Island.
>>7876028
And if everyone wanted to feel other things? What would happen then? Soma is used to exercise control, it is not for the benefit of the people. And the very small amount of people who do want to break the conditioning are sent away to live out their days separate from the rest of society, assuming they aren't actually disposed of there. Is that a utopia?
>>7876046
People don't control what they feel anyway, what is the difference
>>7876055
>People don't control what they feel anyway
[citation needed]
Even granting that, a World Government forcing people to always feel a certain way so they never think about the implications of how and where they live is vastly different from ordinary people grappling with their own complex emotions. The difference is freedom
>>7876076
>[citation needed]
you can't be serious
>>7876076
>is freedom
m8 we aren't seriously revisiting the spook of free will here are we
>>7876091
They do though, they feel anxiety sometimes if they don't get what they want immediately, and then relief when they do.
>>7876098
But that's just it, the people are not supposed to feel anxiety. That's what the Soma is for. Anyone who feels anything other than conditioned happiness becomes anxious because they know nothing else, and because, most importantly, they aren't supposed to. It's a way to keep people dependent on the state. Again, is this supposed to be a utopia?
>>7876109
The state in BNW is essentially benevolent, being dependent on it is a lot easier and more fulfilling than being dependent on the actual world, which is completely indifferent to humanity
It's the utopia of the last man (the end result of utilitarianism/Hegelian idealism).
>>7876118
I thought the Hegelian perfection of history was 19th century Austria or something
>>7876114
>being dependent on it is a lot easier
Does easier = better?
>and more fulfilling
Fulfilling for whom? People who don't know the first thing about life beyond what has been inculcated in them?
>>7876123
What would you prefer they know about life?
Dystopic stories usually end up with the MC attempting to destroy society or a part of it. See Soylent Green for reference.
Utopic stories usually end up with the MC fixing society or a part of it. See Metropolis for reference.
>>7876131
The human experience, with all the complexities, that come with that. To know what it means to feel things other than induced contentedness.
>>7876136
>The human experience,
As in the one that we live?
>>7875825
It's not a dystopia, but it's a future for humanity I don't want to be apart in. And it seems like it's becoming more real every decade.
We sacrifice our individuality for hedonism.
>>7875964
Where I live, I would say that the majority of people here would rather be dead than live in a 'godless' and 'hedonistic' world. They would react similarly to John.
Ultimately whether you consider BNW world a utopia or not depends how highly you value happiness, compared to self-determination and Freedom.
>>7876140
Yes. Including all the emotions, complexities, and tribulations that go along with that. What could be more fulfilling than triumphing over any set of problems that one encounters in life? It wouldn't be a utopia to revert back to this, sure, but a utopia is supposed to eliminate defects in society, not toss them under the rug or distract from them.
>>7875825
It's not a dystopia if somebody wins.
Brave New World is a hedonist paradise, not a dystopia.
>>7876147
Consider a person who can overcome all their obstacles, is this person living in a world functionally different than BNW? You seem to be saying that we have to fail at some stuff and succeed at others to have genuine human experience. Is this just some arbitrary balance of failure and success? Or is what's important that there is no outside force making it easy for us, that we are put against adversity? In such a world most people necessarily will fail at most things because otherwise it would not be adversity. Why is this preferable?
>>7875825
Because there is not freedom of information.
/thread
>>7876162
It's a question of how anything can be fulfilling if everything is already laid out before you. In BNW your status is chosen before birth, your emotional character is regulated for you throughout the duration of your life, and you are not exposed to any of the cultural and/or artistic achievements of humanity. Is this fulfilling? Are the gamma, epsilon, and delta fetuses living a rewarding life? They never had the opportunity to do anything differently.
A person who is actually "allowed" to expose themselves and express themselves to the kinds of things and the kinds of ways we do is absolutely living in a functionally different world than those in BNW. They have the right to feel unhappy when they do, they can feel whatever they want
Slavery is Freedom, right?
>>7876028
Who do you think make up the majority of the inhabitants of Edgy Island? Alphas or Betas? Do you think there are any Epsilons on the Islands?
Sure, the people at the top of the genetic hierarchy can choose to go to the Islands, but the people at the bottom can't. Millions of Zygotes, that would under normal circumstances have most likely developed into normal People, are Intelligence reduction through Oxygen deprivation, environmental conditioning through exposure to metals (to the point where the Adults would feel uncomfortable when not in a specific environment), and similar procedures, all too fill up the factories of the state. The People at the bottom of hierarcy never had the choice of going to Islands because the state purposefully dumbed them down.
Of course the people at the bottom are also probably 'happy' with their lots in life, but would they have been happy had the state not manipulated them from conception to be happy with their stations?
>>7876187
*subjected to
>>7875825
If you think it is a utopia. It's because you wish women would hand you sex and you didn't have to be interesting for it.
If you think it's a dystopia, it's because you understand the importance of freedom of information.
This debate is fucking dumb.
>>7876179
Do you think these average people would turn down Soma? Huge swathes of the population numb themselves with drugs, alcohol, television, video games, etc. They aren't obsessing over the cultural and artistic achievements of humanity, they don't enjoy their adversity. They don't want to feel unhappy at all.
I think more to the point though, these gamma, epsilion, etc are engineered to be this way. They are not 'marred humans' or something like that, they are simply an altered version of humanity, that is much more closely attuned to its environment that actual humans.
The world you're describing and praising, is a world of elitism. Very few people get to have the positive experiences of life, most people's lives are just disappointing. And in BNW those who pathologically crave freedom and expression are allowed to have it. This is not really so different than the world we live in, except that the majority of people are better off.
>>7875825
Sweet god. Why can't you just stay in fucking reddit you fucking socialist faggots ?
If you would really prefer to give up freedom of thought for a uniform "sedated" brainwashed society just for the sake of so-called "easier" and "safer" life for everybody, if you really think a morbid consumerism-based one world state of conditioned individuals with a degenerate culture in an eternal stagnant era is a "utopia", then you should really just fucking kill yourself and fuck off back to rebbit.
If there is one single thing that actually matters in this god damned sppining rock then that is the freedom of thought. And the progress of technology. We, as humanity, must always push further the limits and aim higher.
You practically prefer to be a lobotimized sheep with enough food and relative safety.
Please consider suicide friend
>>7876199
>Citation needed for everything you said.
>>7876199
>Huge swathes of the population numb themselves with drugs, alcohol, television, video games, etc. They aren't obsessing over the cultural and artistic achievements of humanity, they don't enjoy their adversity. They don't want to feel unhappy at all.
This is exactly what Huxley was protesting against. The ultimate nightmare is for something like this to become systemic, formalized, and a function of the state. Do you want to live in a society where this is institutionalized? Why do you think John killed himself?
>The world you're describing and praising, is a world of elitism. Very few people get to have the positive experiences of life, most people's lives are just disappointing. And in BNW those who pathologically crave freedom and expression are allowed to have it. This is not really so different than the world we live in, except that the majority of people are better off.
The world of BNW is a hierarchical world. It's even worse than ours because your class is literally picked out for you before you're born. There is no social mobility. There's no freedom of choice. And here, even the higher classes don't get to enjoy the pleasantries one would normally ascribe to them in our world.
>>7876204
agreed
>>7876210
I don't want it, but it seems to be what people choose anyway.
And BNW is hierarchical but the lower classes are, again, literally designed to be ok with being the lower class. It's like the old trope about slaves in America being better off under the slave owners except that it's true.
Social mobility is basically non-existent as it is, and if you do manage to go up a level or two it's almost completely luck, whether of circumstance or genetic gifts. In BNW the underclass would be able to accept this
There's no love and individuality in a BNW. That for me is a sufficient reason to not want to partake in it's society. It does boil down to personal opinion at the end of the day, but i do feel that the misery in this world is not enough to throw away all that is beautiful. People laugh at the death's of their own mothers for fucks sake.
The interesting paradox though is that from the present tense we can value this lack of love as negative since we know love, but for people there it's a ridiculous concept if a concept at all. You can't seem to desire a thing you haven't previously desired; it's like the analogy of the fish that only knows the water trying to escape it.
It raises an interesting point of freedom that goes beyond the personal decisions of others. And it seems to tackle the abortion problem: i didn't decide to be killed as a fetus, yet i indeed was, however, i won't know in the future that i was killed, so i can't resent my own murder, so no utilitarian damage was dealt. Similarly i can't know in the un-modified version of myself that i was modified, so you can't really hurt that version that will never exist.
It's as if there's a freedom to exist and a freedom to want to exist in a certain way that if denied has no consequences for that which was prevented from existing cannot complain.
I've always wondered this, but does anyone know if Huxley was a communist? Or even a leftist for that matter? I know Orwell was communist.
the whole book is essentially nietzsches_last_men.txt
People might be happy, but is it worth it?
>>7876120
are you sure youre not thinking of Kant... because he was bullshitting.
A world where people are next to themselves happy about being slaves and are apart of a caste system?
From my life in the here and now, no way Jose, not interested in living that life
But to be born into that world wouldn't be terrible. No suffering and no need to worry about the meaning of freedom
There just wouldn't be any self discovery, no "pushing the boundaries" of the self or overcoming or becoming better, no real "lows" but that also means no real "highs", you wouldn't find any meaning in your life because you wouldn't seek it.
>>7875825
There's something to be said for the idea that people define their lives in relation to suffering and struggle. Some people say that grappling with life is the key to being human, instead of just being a lifeform that passively floats from birth to death unchallenged.
I agree with the notion, but I still think a society like BNW would be fulfilling. There are still plenty of obstacles for mankind to grapple with. Death? Space travel? Heat death of the universe? BNW has simply conquered man's basic needs. His destiny still awaits.
>>7875825
Shocking infants so they don't like flowers, putting alcohol in fetuses so people are underdeveloped, forcing entire populations into shit work, the only things open to the higher classes is pure sensory pleasures. No independent thought, no close relationships between people, no social development of any kind, ruled by a few individuals who control the system.
Any individualism results in exile.
>Not a dystopia
>cuz they have fun
>And use drugs
Literally only kids will think this is a utopia.
>>7876456
"Shocking infants so they don't like flowers, putting alcohol in fetuses so people are underdeveloped"
It's true that the morality of social conditioning is debatable.
"Forcing entire populations into shit work"
How do you define shit work? Their entire upbringing of the underclass was designed to make them the perfect candidates for "shit work". It might be shit to you, but it's perfect for them. Various experiments were undertaken to find the perfect ratio for this "shit works" role in the underclasses lives.
"No independent thought"
Is there really such a thing as independent thought? How do you define that?
"no close relationships between people"
Okay, that's true. But, it does prevent a lot of suffering. When emotions between people run hot, people act irrational. Most kidnappings, murders, rapes ect.. are perpetuated by people close to the victim.
"no social development of any kind"
I fundamentally disagree with that. The society of Brave New World is incredibly well thought out and complex. There is a specific amount of Alpha's, Gamma's, Beta's, every class of society is carefully chosen constructed and kept at a perfect ratio. You can knock this society for a lot of things, but not it's development and complexity.
"ruled by a few individuals who control the system"
How does this differ from a modern capitalist system though? Social mobility is limited and we live in a period of history where the world is essentially an autocratic oligarchy based around the dollar. There are over 7 BILLION people on this planet, we can't all be leaders.
"Any individualism results in exile"
It's true that deviance results in exile, but in this society, if you have the necessary mental capacity for deviance, you have the capacity to not be deviant. It's a lifestyle choice. There is no institutionalized racism targeting specific groups. No prejudiced authority cracking down on gender. Labels besides class are no longer relevant. In our current society (assuming you're American) we're still breaking down the barriers that prevent anybody whose not a rich white man to succeed. We still leave parts of our nation to rot, parts of our society to crumble and fester, and our reaction? Fuck them, they're deviant. I'll take exile over imprisonment.
>Not a dystopia
>cuz they have fun
>And use drugs
How does that differ from life now? From the businessmen railing lines of coke off that strippers ass, to the housewives eating xanax. You're kidding yourself if you think most people aren't already on something just to get through the fucking day
>>7876540
There is no social development, as in their society can no longer change, it is in perpetual stagnation.
I'm not arguing if our society is better or worse, only that BMW is not a utopia.
Independent thought is a least free from constant external obstacles, and at the bare minimum needs alone time to develop, resources to guide it, and people intent on actually helping it develop. BMW is the exact opposite. The mind is limited in every way, from alcohol poisoned fetuses, to one stop socializing and pleasure, to banning books, and even making science and philosophy essentially heresy.
Saying deviants have a choice is a akin to saying that one has a choice to live in slavery. Either they comply, or they suffer the consequences.
>>7876540
>"Shocking infants so they don't like flowers, putting alcohol in fetuses so people are underdeveloped"
>It's true that the morality of social conditioning is debatable.
this reminds me of that South Park episode last season when Randy joins the P.C. fraternity:
>I've joined a social awareness group, Sharon. We had a meeting.
>Do then have booze at those meetings?
>They serve refreshments, yes.
>>7876146
>Where I live, I would say that the majority of people here would rather be dead than live in a 'godless' and 'hedonistic' world.
They already do senpai
>>7876582;______;
>>7876204
so... what are you contributing to the progress of technology/thought?
>>7875825
>>7876707
What kind of dumb question is that ?
It doesen't matter what I, as an individual does. I'm irrelevant. And it has no connection to my statement.
>p.s. atm i'm studying neural networks and computational neurology
Not that it matters, but just fyi
>>7876118
underrated post
its the utopia of the ultimate hedonist and materialist
in BNW Huxley tries to state that the BNW is a dystopia by it's world being essential death, not as in physical death but as in spiritual death. in his worldview the value and purpose to life is to form a unique identity through the struggles of life. for him an socially engineered world is a world devoid of purpose and effectively hell as it was for john "the savage" even if it offers physical safety and satisfaction. his worldview and writing skills are no where good enough to prove BNW isn't a utilitarian paradise. someone will always have to work at a coal mine, so is having happy epsilons actually worse than having sad wageslaves? this is where Huxly's point starts to fall apart. BNW isn't a clear dystopia or a utopia. it's an alternative way of life that might be beyond our capability of comprehending or at the very least would suit some of us but not the rest of us
>>7876262
if you called Orwell a communist in his face, he would be pretty pissed probably
this is good
>>7876204
>>7876211
>reddit REDDIT ReddiT rEDDIt AAAA HA HA HA HAAAA
>reddit REDDIT ReddiT rEDDIt AAAA HA HA HA HAAAA
I've got a better idea - how about YOU just fuck off back to /pol/, asswipe? You cancerous scum have been infecting the whole of 4chan for months now with your reactionary horseshit.
>>7875825
Literally the entire point of BNW was to show why happiness is not a valid end-goal of society. The message behind it was that you can have a society that is objectively perfect and pragmatically flawless but still be extremely dystopian.
That was it. That was the theme. If you finished BNW and thought "wow, this sounds like a cool place to live!" you either fundamentally misunderstood Marx's character or you unironically enjoyed Atlas Shrugged.
>>7876204
I don't know why Reddit is continually criticized as a collective hivemind of leftism when just like 4chan it's full of differing perspectives and arguing people. Like really, what's with the fucking West Side Story rivalry between 4chan and Reddit?
>>7878298
We've been in a turf war with reddit since /r/4chan became a thing.
They flood us with normies and we sit around and complain about it.
>>7878298
>rivalry
this is exactly why you need to BTFO to reddit
>>7878301
pic related
>>7875825
It's a dystopia becausesome one night stand's kid killed himself
>>7875825
there's the study about the rat that had an electrode stuck into his pleasure center, and a button to stimulate it
paraphrasing but he spent his entire life pressing the button, eternally content
utopia?
>>7878298
As reddit works on the basis of upvotes for content that you enjoy and downvotes for content that you don't, inevitably a hivemind is going to occur as it becomes like a contest to see who can produce the most popular content and get the most upvotes. What this means is that many people who frequent reddit end up simply being washed away by the sea of neo liberal, anti-theistic views and poor humour. While there are certainly differing views on reddit, these differing views are only given equal voicing on 4chan, as posts here aren't downvoted if they aren't enjoyed or upvoted if they are. This results in more insulting and vulgar humour to voice their lack of enjoyment, but it's still fairer than having this content simply removed as it recieved 'too many downvotes'.
>>7875825
>Kapitalist Kuck
>>7876204
BNW was cricizing capitalism.
>>7876191
>>women would hand you sex and you didn't have to be interesting for it.
Hate to break it to you, but this would be a utopia for most people.
>>If you think it's a dystopia, it's because you understand the importance of freedom of information.
A good point, but BNW is far more of a failed utopia then a dystopia precisely. An actual fuckyourself and die in a ditch dystopia is something like 1984.
>>7876707
Carl? Is that you?
Redpill me on the bluepill
>>7878733
It was criticizing Malthusian, Keynesian, and possibly Ricardian capitalism. Malthus and Keynes were obsessed with increasing consumption, and Ricardo advocated extreme specialization which could be seen in the World State caste system. However, Brave New World wasn't really criticizing the more vague concept that allowing people to use capital freely and unfettered will in turn create more capital.
