redpill me on this pairing
dont know wether to post this on /mu/, /pol/, /his/, or here......but here it is
so yeah thanks
also since you all probably have better taste than moo, add your favorite nietzsche AND wagner work to the end of your post pls and thanks
Nietzsche hated Wagner
>>7863224
Nietzsche was completely in love with Cosima, Wagner's wife. The end.
Nietzsche - The Birth of Tragedy
Wagner - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coLxM2hq_gA
>Wagner
Daww, babby's first classical music :')
>>7863232
reread the op/be coherent please
thx famm
>>7863232
>>>/mu/classical
Fuck off and stay there, Wagner is actually pretty inaccessible save for a few pieces and is one of the most most influential composers in the western art music canon.
>>7863247
> Wagner inaccessible
kek
Let's not get carried away, that was a dumb post but Wagner is literally the definition of prole tier.
>>7863259
>Wagner is literally the definition of prole tier.
Fucking retard, try having your average street pleb sit through all of Parsifal.
>>7863260
All that means is that 21st century plebs are even more retarded than 19th century plebs.
>>7863270
(You)
>>7863259
This.
>>7863224
Wagner was trying too hard and the problem is that you can feel it in his music. Too much of everything, too long. Nietzsche said he couldn't breath while listening to Wagner. Good artist try rly hard but you don't feel it in their work, it feels natural, simple. Greek aesthetic is a good model because it's sophisticated yet simple, as Nietzsche said, Greeks are superficial because they re deep.
>>7863224
>redpill
Just saying that word makes me imagine a 19-21 year old man, indescribably ugly with bad hygiene, sitting in a dark room in his parents house with tons of tabs open from varied reddits and stormfront and torrents of "underground" pdfs downloading in the background. His mommy brings him some spaghetti (he has long since stopped coming to the table) and politely asks if he is going to look for work soon. He sneers at her and tosses his full yet greasy head of hair at her and says, "stop trying to control my life you slimehole". She gives a weak smile and leaves him to his darkness, having been illuminated by the open door to contain many prints and reproductions (cheaply done on bad paper at gingkos) of Volkisch themes, Trump campaign posters stolen from the lawns of the poor, and 50s pinup girls. He turns Wagner on and sits back and closes his eyes and mumbles the words "masterrace you fucking cunts."
>>7863224
>redpill
Kill yourself
>>7864010
Find a better use of your time
>>7863259
>>7863987
>>7864010
>mfw
>>7863224
>redpill me
They were both Jews and wanted to breed out whiteness, or something like that
Need to dig the infographics and jpgs out
>>7864028
says the guy also on 4chan
Wagner is a giant of classical music, Tristan und Isolde is one of the peaks of the entire Western tradition.
I think Nietzsche's Untimely Meditations is one of his more interesting works, especially On the use and abuse of History. Birth of Tragedy remains probably the most fun to read.
>>7863259
Really? I never understood romantic era music outside your chopins and garbaldis; there's just too much shit going on.
Baroque or modern.
>>7864346
I know it's basic, but Thus Spoke Zarathustra was marvelous. Just the fact that it's written like a religious text is brilliant, but the philosophy remains relevant to this day. Esp. the whole "last men" thing. Nietzsche was a smart dude.
>>7863224
Read nitch's book on waggy
>>7864346
Thanks for those recs though. I only recently got the gumption to read through his books again. Beyond Good and Evil annoyed me a while back and I gave up.
>>7863987
Lmao. Friendly reminder that da greaak statues where painted like tacky whores
>>7864010
redpill me on this post
>>7863232
>classical
Jesus man
>>7863224
Nietzsche always admired Wagner for his genius, but disliked the nature of his art. For Nietzsche Wagner's art was decadent - as some kind of toxic drug that that provided a substitution of a life for those that could not stomach reality. Nietzsche's ideal for art was something that reveled in spiritual strength - something that did not look away from hardships of life, but one that embraces it with cheerfulness (i.e. music of Mozart). Wagner's art was an opiate; it was excessively theatrical and seeked to intoxicate people with a sort of "elevated feeling" that gave them a false sense of "higher being". The type of people that were drawn to Wagner's decadent art were more along the lines of being "mules who have been whipped too much by life" and do not truly understand what it means to be "higher men". For Nietzsche, people of nobility wouldn't get anything out of Wagner's art for it only seeks to intoxicate its audience and ultimately lacks authentic passion or ideas.
>>7864010
You know you don't have to post, we will be just fine without you
>>7866720
Mozart? EW.
ps. You don't know shit about music.
>>7866827
>mozart? ew
This is my eternal trigger
Fuck you and everything about you
>>7866827
spot the wagnerian
>>7866827
Hello, /mu/
>>7866853
Pls. I prefer Beethoven, rackmaninov. And Randy Bachman.
Michael Nyman is alright, but he's no Candied-ass art Tatum with red lines on his ass cheeks for riding the edge of a piano bench.
>>7866881
>Randy Bachman
>>7866881
>rackmaninov
wew
>>7866930
wew c:
>>7864010
you are autistic
>>7866720
Is it wrong that I think this is somewhat contradictory to Nietzsche's usual thoughts? I would think he would like bombast and high energy art.
>>7867414
Nietzsche said his writing style was over-the-top bombastic because the written word gave a very pale impression compared to the spoken, so he had to compensate.
>>7863224
Wagner tops from the bottom. He's a little too kinky for Nietzsche. Nietzsche is into cuddling. Wagner is into piss.
>>7867414
Bizet's Carmen can described as bombastic and high energy and it was Nietzsche's favorite opera. For Nietzsche, Wagner had a bad conscience and consequently there was something rancid at the core of his art.
>>7864010
kek
>>7864010
6.5/10 post
9/10 post if rated by number of replies
10/10 post if rated by quality of replies
>>7864903
nah lol can u sum it up for me?
>>7864016
u first my man
>>7865560
He said classical, not Classical.
I get that it's fun to be a total sperg, but it really only works if you're actually right.
Nietzsche and Wagner used to be friends, then Wagner became an anti-Semite Christian and Nietzsche got really mad
>>7863259
fuck no,
you're confusing accessible with popular
Wagner was and became everything that Nietzsche dreamt he could be.
Wagner was a creative genius. Wagner was a man of relentless and inexhaustable willlpower, Wagner was a genius.
Wagner was a man of extreme vigour, and force permanated his entire being; Nietzsche, despite his brilliance, ended up psychotic. He twisted himself towards pathetic redditism as he reached his decline.
Wagner was everything Nietzsche wanted to be - the truly heroic type.
>>7863232
Go back to /mu/ and find the most obscure music you can
>le "high IQ" board
>act like a pack of starving apes that just had a banana thrown between them after one /mu/ shit post
anyway, Wagner was a man. He wasn't abstract, he wasn't pretension. He lived in reality. He expressed objective human emotion and thought.
Nietzsche was a joke who died eating his own excrement. Wagner died after creating his dream. Like all continentals he'll be forgotten in the next 20 or so years.
>>7869143
not really
>>7868756
good post t b h
>>7866827
>Mozart EW
You realise that Schoenberg, Messiaen, Webern, and others were trying to recapture the effortless beauty of Mozart, and the sublimity of Bach?
Please don't be a contrarian. If you said "(some random nobody composer) is a hack" then you may be right. But to shit on perhaps one of the greatest composers in the Western canon is pathetic plebbery of the highest order. I don't especially like Verdi but I do not have the autism to then post "VERDI? he's shit!", because Verdi was obviously a brilliant composer.
It's like when people don't really "get" or like Shakespeare and so they rant about how he is actually shit and he's only popular for being a white male blah blah but his plays were actually written by African/Irish women blah blah
Take Glenn Gould's cock outta your ass kiddo.
Nietzsche basically said Wagner was a hack and he was unfortunately drawn into his capeshit tier art as a young and impressionable youth. Nietzsche's last complete work was him drawing together passages from older works into a cohesive "fuck you Wagner I never liked your christcucked dogshit" essay.
They were buddies for a bit cause young Nietzsche needed a father figure and was working through an existential rut to one degree or another for much of his late teens and early 20s' but Nietzsche both grew apart from Schopenhauer (particularly the too-Christian asceticism he implied) and became increasingly concerned with Wagner's antisemitism (he more or less broke off relations with his sister over her screwing an antisemitic Hans Donnerwurst as well).
Wagner also thought Nietzsche was a dick because he refused to become a vegetarian. Wagner also accused him of being a chronic masturbator which was possibly correct.
>>7869256
Nee-chee adored Wagner but after showing him his music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DxMc2fQgO4 Wagner trashed it mercilessly calling his music lifeless and sentimental or something. That was when they began to fall out, don't forget when confronted with the sublimity of Parsifal Nee-chee stormed out because he was #triggered
I like Neitchee ad Wang though
>>7863224
The summary:
Wagner is a musician. He creates grand theatrical performances and brings life to old Nordic myths with his music which the Germans, in the process of still developing their nation's identity, come to appreciate as part of their own cultural history. Many people love him.
Young Nietzsche encounters Wagner. He is immediately entranced by his music. He contacts Wagner and assists him however he can through his writing and professorship.
Nietzsche spends a decent amount of time at Wagner's home. While Wagner plays music, Nietzsche often finds himself conversing with Wagner's wife. Nietzsche slowly falls in love with Wagner's wife because he shares and admires her deep passion for her husband's music.
Nietzsche tries writing music of his own. Wagner listens to it, then leaves the room and falls on the floor laughing. Nietzsche overhears this.
Nietzsche confesses his feelings to Wagner's wife who more or less tells him he has no chance in hell. After these experiences Nietzsche goes and begins writing Thus Spoke Zarathustra. The tone of the rest of his writings changes, and he comes to denounce Wagner as having poisoned music, because his work is almost all about high volume and theatrics rather than substance (which is pretty true, and it definitely did lead to 20th century genres of music, which became more and more about high volume and theatrics over substance).
I'm not bothering with citations and this is based on my recollection from readings 5+ years ago.
>>7868756
Maybe, but Nietzsche's contribution to culture is more enduring than Wagner's, except for wankers who like pomp.
>>7869351
You're pretentious idiot, next time learn what you're posting about before you do.
good thread lol
>>7866881
Beethoven better than Mozart? Nigga please.
>>7869727
Why YOU don't explain the reason because Mozart is better than Beethoven, nigga?
>>7868756
>He twisted himself towards pathetic redditism
jesus
fucking
christ
otherwise okay post
>>7869314
can someone confirm this?
also nietzsche's view on wagner changes so much that i couldnt keep track of it and just skipped those parts (sorry senpai)
>>7869314
pretty much
Nietzsche was an edgelord and his trashing of Plato and Wagner have a lot to do with him being a massive sperg.
>>7870946
be coherent when you post here please and thanks
>>7868756
Wagner wore satin underwear and silk shirts because he couldn't handle rough fabrics on his skin.
>>7866720
Say what you want about the people who listened to Wagner at Bayreuth, but the man himself was undoubtably a genius and the greatest single dramatist in the history of theatre. The amount of talent he had is staggering and he certainly made himself into a higher man through it.
>>7871451
He was a hack who wrote corny anthems in service of his politics.
>>7871451
It's Nietzsche's opinion. Not mine. I actually agree with you. His music displayed an otherworldly genius and we'll never see anything like it again.
>>7871471
so much this
I've just started reading this today:
Nietzsche and Wagner
by Joachim Köhler
Link: http://amzn.com/0300181647
Nietzsche did indeed become infatuated with Cosima. During his descent into madness he seemed to confuse/combine her with the role of Ariadne, with himself as Dionysus ('natch) & Wagner as the Minotaur...
There's an interesting doco on Wagner by Stephen Fry. The first half is a good overview on Wagner & the 2nd half becomes some sort of weird deconstruction of Fry himself.
>>7871406
Kinda true. You have to be familiar with the psychological type of Nietzsche. There's a reason why his writing is so penetrating, provocative, but also obscure to most and crystal clear to anyone who gets him (which is why he seems to have a small, almost religious following everywhere).
There is an account of Nietzsche by an acquaintance of his somewhere, something else I can't be bothered to dig up a citation for. It describes him at a coffee shop or similar type of public scene, and how he behaves in general. He's super particular and orderly, and talks to people like the waitress as if he hasn't really talked to anyone for years, someone kind of unfamiliar with conversation in general. Overall it paints the picture of this kind of nerdy, isolated, almost neurotic individual.
The thing is that Nietzsche was socially impotent. Like, pathologically so. There is no way to confirm this but I personally attribute it to the fact that his father and younger brother died when he was very young. Faced with this loss and these uncontrollable deaths at a young age, he had to have grown up with a sense that as an autonomous agent in the world, he was incredibly impotent. The chances happened that he grew up very impotent in the external world, but in terms of introspection, he became increasingly more powerful and penetrating. And then you have the genius philosopher that we know of today.
Of course, many people experience loss and death at that age, and not all grow up to be like him. So it's not just this psychology that makes a philosopher. Many more factors are involved. It's just that, you simply can't consider his philosophy without also considering his person, and what made him so good at insight into philosophical problems. Feeling so weak like that, whenever you venture outside, when your disposition is honest and still dreamy despite your circumstances, makes the inner realm of thought so much more appealing, so much more invigorating. So much more comforting and easy to work with if that is where your mind was thrown into and became nourished by at a young age.
>>7872369
>During his descent into madness he seemed to confuse/combine her with the role of Ariadne, with himself as Dionysus ('natch) & Wagner as the Minotaur...
Yup. His madness letters are actually awesome to read. It all makes sense, in a way.
To expand on my other post >>7872561 regarding him referring to himself as Dionysus in love with Ariadne...
You see, one insight of Nietzsche's, which I think we can all agree with to an extent, is that humans have an innate aspect of cruelty in them. This isn't some edgy shit, as if we all have these dark secrets and fetishes we want to fulfill, or are harboring any extremely immoral desires. By cruelty I mean that we as humans all gravitate to harshness in some way. We create institutions and disciplines, we organize things, we CREATE things, we wage war... all of these things have some element of destruction and forcefulness to them. There is a very subtle aspect of cruelty in all of us.
Consider someone like Nietzsche going by the psychology I described. If your mind's attention is all thrown into the inner realm, then so will that cruelty. Nietzsche became so good at philosophy because of this. Philosophy is a somewhat cruel practice; it's about organizing the world of thought to an almost brutal degree. Nietzsche's "cruelty" was his unbelievable knack for penetrating others' philosophies and his insight.
But this is a type of cruelty that is almost focused on the self. It is cruelty to your own mind, discipline of your own mind. To reach Nietzsche's level, he had to disciple himself so severely. He had to destroy the very fibers of his own personality and mind time and again to continue evolving on the inside. And he was intuitive enough to realize that this process and his lifestyle and everything he was accomplishing was relative to the god of ecstasy, wine, darkness and the abyss, Dionysus, and that his passion, what he strived for, was the labyrinth of existence itself, Ariadne.
>>7869143
>post starts off with promising reprimand
>devolves into shitpost about Nietzsche
You're not elevating the discussion either.
Nietzsche turned against Wagner and used him as a symbol against which to develop his own values
I can't comment on why their friendship ended, Maybe because Nietzsche was jealous of Wagner.
Maybe because he loved his wife, maybe because he hated his music.
Either way once it had ruptured Nietzsche pointedly uses him to illustrate Western decadence and spiritual decay.
However, if you are familiar with Nietzsche's ideas of "The Free Spirit" you'll know he proposes contrarian action is necessary in order to create an original and personal valuation. (Not in terms of ressentiment of course)
Nietzsche also writes about true friendship as rivalry and conflict. Whether or not he believed it or was just bitter, the best friends are a kind of adversary.
>>7872605
Interesting, but I would also be careful about getting too "psychological"
Take his madness letters and the proclamations of his philosophy with a grain of salt. True he was isolated and incisive, but is this also why he devoted himself to creating such an elaborate personal mythology, a mythology of a higher man, or even dealing with myths at all?
When he extolls the virtues of philosophers he is just one in a long line of individuals who are beating their chest because their sense of self worth relies on it.
In other words, you have a conception of Nietzsche as this philosopher who overcame social paralysis and isolation, living a rich internal life.
I would very much struggle to suppose (as Nietzsche thinks is the test of a philosopher), he lived his literature.
This is the man that struggles to order coffee at a coffeeshop. Not the
"genius of the heart which teaches the bungling and precipitous hand to hesitate and handle things delicately, which guesses the hidden and forgotten treasure, the drop of goodness and sweet intelligence beneath layers of murky, thick ice; which is a divining rod for every speck of gold that lies buried in its dungeon of deep muck and sand -- genius of the heart, upon whose touch everyone departs richer, not full of grace, not surprised, not enriched and oppressed as though by strange goods, but richer in himself, newer than before, cracked wide open, blown upon and drawn out by a spring wind , more uncertain now perhaps, more delicate, fragile, and broken, but full of hopes that have no names as yet, full of new will and flow, full of new ill will and counterflow"
>>7872605
but I guess most of literature and philosophy can be chalked up to wishful thinking.
>>7872782
Yeah, I don't think he overcame his social impotence or anything. He lived that way until the end. He probably had some brief moments of daring in his life, but that is it.
I have never seen Nietzsche refer to himself as the Overman. He was aware of his condition and his role in life. He is Zarathustra, the PROPHET of the Overman. He conceived of this figure and foresaw its return; it is without a doubt an essential part of him, since it was born from his mind, but he was not quite the figure itself.
But philosophy is not fantasy. Philosophy is about what is real. I would say he was a genius of the heart and everything else poeticized there, and indeed lived his mythology. And the Overman is not merely a concept. The thing with Nietzsche is that the divide between actuality and metaphor is non existent. He took Schopenhauer's will and his concern with appearances and went totally beyond him. Appearance is the same as the thing that it supposedly hides. The separation of the "world of thought, ideas, and fiction" from the body and mind that bores it is done away with with the concept of perspectivism. It is just a matter of knowing how to piece them back into the whole. It's not something so deluded as thinking that there is an actual physical realm where ideas are "real". More like, ideas must be understood in regards to the minds they exist in. This was his problem with Plato, the "poison mixer" or however Nietzsche referred to him, who is really the originator of this divide. It is such a small thing, an idea in itself, yet it flourished and lead to practically everything that happened in human history after him.
>>7863232
>actually listening to classical music
>>7872782
>This is the man that struggles to order coffee at a coffeeshop. Not the
Why can't he be both?
N: Birth of Tragedy (1872) or The Dionysian Worldview (1870)
W: Artwork of the Future (1849)
Nietzsche was a self-declared devotee of Wagner and his music in the mid 1860's to about 1876 when the Untimely essay was published. I think that the Birth of Tragedy was a culmination of Nietzsche's researches and meditations on the Greeks, Goethe, Schopenhauer, and Wagner. The influence of philosopher Schopenhauer is most apparent; but the essential role of music in the Birth of Tragedy is an indication of Wagner's influence.
Nietzsche was so prude he scorned rhythm and wanted only pure unrepeated Apollonian melody.
>>7866720
Don't forget that Nietzsche praised Wagner's music since it had that tranquil "toxic" character. Nietzsche wrote so much about divine-destructive Dionysian character to compensate for his own prudishness. Also, he hadn't opposed himself to Schopenhauer's philosophy yet. The latter thought that rest of body and mind and resignation from the world was the greatest good. After all, the metaphysical Will - that's in and throughout the power to feel and act in the world of appearances - can only bring about suffering. It's the revaluation of suffering and "the good life" which makes Nietzsche a radical thinker.
>>7874184
Also, Nietzsche didn't like to dance and so naturally he didn't like his contemporary Strauss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7IGagejBmo
>>7863247
What's /classical/'s equivalent of Infinite Jest?
>>7874408
Jestatorum Infinitum
