ITT: Christian /lit/
Cuckold Nights by Jebediah Johnson
EVERY man naturally desires knowledge; but what good is knowledge without fear of God? Indeed a humble rustic who serves God is better than a proud intellectual who neglects his soul to study the course of the stars. He who knows himself well becomes mean in his own eyes and is not happy when praised by men.
If I knew all things in the world and had not charity, what would it profit me before God Who will judge me by my deeds?
Shun too great a desire for knowledge, for in it there is much fretting and delusion. Intellectuals like to appear learned and to be called wise. Yet there are many things the knowledge of which does little or no good to the soul, and he who concerns himself about other things than those which lead to salvation is very unwise.
Many words do not satisfy the soul; but a good life eases the mind and a clean conscience inspires great trust in God.
The more you know and the better you understand, the more severely will you be judged, unless your life is also the more holy. Do not be proud, therefore, because of your learning or skill. Rather, fear because of the talent given you. If you think you know many things and understand them well enough, realize at the same time that there is much you do not know. Hence, do not affect wisdom, but admit your ignorance. Why prefer yourself to anyone else when many are more learned, more cultured than you?
If you wish to learn and appreciate something worth while, then love to be unknown and considered as nothing. Truly to know and despise self is the best and most perfect counsel. To think of oneself as nothing, and always to think well and highly of others is the best and most perfect wisdom. Wherefore, if you see another sin openly or commit a serious crime, do not consider yourself better, for you do not know how long you can remain in good estate. All men are frail, but you must admit that none is more frail than yourself.
>>7849649
Glad to see my list reposted.
Hoping someone found it useful. I'll revisit it after this year, been reading a lot of Catholic stuff lately and I've missed some fantastic authors.
>>7849687
These are some of my favorite
“We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life—they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all.”
―Gene Wolfe,Shadow & Claw
“What struck me on the beach–and it struck me indeed, so that I staggered as at a blow–was that if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved thorn I had carried about my neck across so many leagues, and if it now rested in the new thorn (perhaps the same thorn) I had only now put there, then it might rest in everything, in every thorn in every bush, in every drop of water in the sea. The thorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand in my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand. The cenobites treasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the sannyasins had approached the Pancreator. But everything had approached and even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on holy ground.”
―Gene Wolfe,The Citadel of the Autarch
>>7849775
Tell us more
>>7849633
Top tier right now afaik
>>7849831
Yup it's fucking awesome. One of a kind and really feels Catholic- universal.
>>7849853
If anything it will give this amazing novel some more publicity.
>>7849781
>>7849775
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, 1906-9 Apr 1945
German; Lutheran pastor and theologian
anti-Nazi
arrested, imprisoned, transferred to concentration camp
tried and executed (age 39) in connection with plot to assassinate Hitler
some notable works:
* The Cost of Discipleship (1937)
* Life Together (1938)
* Letters and Papers from Prison (posthumous)
>>7849633
Inb4 the Bible
>>7849896
>Lutheran
Into hell it goes.
>>7850210
Book of Job & Book of John confirmed for best.
>>7850238
hello /lit/
Damn, this is a good ass thread. Happy Good Friday /lit/, sorry I don't have anything to contribute.
What is wrong about positivism and secular humanist utilitarianism?
>>7850313
The dripping blood our only drink,
The bloody flesh our only food:
In spite of which we like to think
That we are sound, substantial flesh and blood—
Again, in spite of that, we call this Friday good.
>>7850329
Well as a Christian I believe it's totally incorrect. Belief that Jesus is God and that eternal life is real necessarily negates positivism, so it's not for me.
Most /lit/ translation of the Bible is NKJ right??
I keep asking and never get a reply.
>>7850372
If you're purely after the Bible as a work of literature with a strong aesthetic value, then yes, the KJV is it. Portions of it are beautiful.
I don't think it makes the best Bible for a believer, though, since sometimes it plays fast and loose with its translations, and is generally hard to read for the modern Christian. As a Catholic I prefer the New American Standard Bible, which is perfectly legible and easy to read.
>>7850372
Most /lit/ is the Ancient Greek translation from Hebrew, hope that helps
>>7849649
>catholic
Don't think so, read your list again.
Favourite book of the bible?
John.
> Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
> “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
Not one post of Anselm of Canterbury?
dude was the first one to propose ontological proof of God (Aquinas shot it down some 400 years later though)
dude is cool
>>7850381
The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the New Testament was written in Greek (except for Matthew)
>>7850372
>>7850372
The KJV is considered to have the most literary significance for several reasons. First is aesthetic, as anon above pointed out. It contains many beautiful passages and phrases. The style that sometimes is invoked when people talk about McCarthy, that he writes in a serious and deliberate manner with the rhythm of a Hebrew prophet (or whatever tf they say like this about him), is referring to the style of, for example, Isaiah in the KJV.
It's also lit for the influence it had over the English language and literature. Recall that English was still in the later phases of becoming a standardized language in the late 16th century... The Faerie Queene was a major factor in this process. Then in the 17th century we get James's nation-building translation of the Bible, then Shakespeare's first folio, then later the 1662 Book of Common Prayer. These texts, more than most others in the age, influenced the language and the literature to follow, up to today.
The one thing that lets me down most about the KJV, in terms of lit-ness, is that the poetry is not printed in versified form. This was an 18th century innovation. It does a disservice to the Hebrew poetry that it's printed mostly as prose.
>>7850372
ESV, NRSV, NKJ, KJ.
Pick any one of those and you're good to go.
What about the Book of Common Prayer?
> THE law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices, which they offered year by year continually, make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: in burnt-offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt-offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God: he taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; then saith he, And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
>>7850588
Fun fact, the Cogito Ergo Sum is essentially the Ontological Argument stood on its head. Aquinas' critique of the OA is so devastating that when Descartes dusted it off all his fellow Catholic philosophers were embarrassed for him.
>>7850458
>the New Testament was written in Greek (except for Matthew)
Source? Granted, it was written for a Jewish audience, but all the manuscripts are in Greek.
>>7850649
Since I'm Catholic, I'll be saying a Rosary at 3 PM my time. Then I'll go to the service tonight at 6, where we'll have the Veneration of the Cross.
Have some Reproaches Of The Cross: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V57DuroVVwc
>>7849633
>There are religious people in /lit/ right now
>Non-ironically
>No matter how much you read, you keep shoving away the knowledge that contradicts your weak ideology
How could men like you not see past the dogma?
>>7850735
there's no need to bait
hope your day is going well
>>7850748
There is a lot of need to bait, I cannot believe people like you cannot see how basic the issue of dogma is to humans.
Existing without knowing of what the hell we are doing here is no fun, but that doesn't mean you have to immerse yourself in a world of fantasy to escape the pain.
>>7850760
He who persists in knowledge and forsakes his soul will deny the ultimate truth; lest he need give up his search.
>>7850775
Ah yes, never forget the cool quotes coming from the belief itself, telling you to keep believing otherwise you are a moron.
Genius stuff.
>Believe
>If you don't believe
>You are stupid
Works everytime.
>>7850760
It's not fantasy. It's all real.
>>7850795
What's real?
>>7850793
Well, that rule is not working too well if you managed to post, is it?
>>7850798
What is truth?
>>7850858
Go to bed, Pilate. You're drunk.
>>7850858
>Responding to a question with another question
>Unable to state what you even consider real in what I claimed was a world of fantasy
Truth if that which has the property of being true, factual, existing and depending on the context reliable in its replication by others.
We need this
>>7850446
Dude the ontological argument is like the worst argument ever. Even worse than Descartes.
>>7850904
>Worship for Shut-Ins
kek this is perfect for me
Christian poetry?
> In the midst of that night, in my darkness,
I saw the awesome sight of Christ
opening the heavens for me.
And he bent down to me and showed himself to me
with the Father and the Holy Spirit
in the thrice holy light --
a single light in three, and a threefold light in one,
for they are altogether light,
and the three are but one light,.
And he illumined my soul
more radiantly than the sun,
and he lit up my mind,
which had until then been in darkness.
Never before had my mind seen such things.
I was blind, you should know it, and I saw nothing.
That was why this strange wonder
was so astonishing to me,
when Christ, as it were, opened the eye of my mind,
when he gave me sight, as it were,
and it was him that I saw.
He is Light within Light, who appears
to those who contemplate him,
and contemplatives see him in light --
see him, that is, in the light of the Spirit...
And now, as if from far off,
I still see that unseeable beauty,
that unapproachable light, that unbearable glory.
My mind is completely astounded.
I tremble with fear.
Is this a small taste from the abyss,
which like a drop of water
serves to make all water known
in all its qualities and aspects?...
I found him, the One whom I had seen from afar,
the one whom Stephen saw
when the heavens opened,
and later whose vision blinded Paul.
Truly, he was as a fire in the center of my heart.
I was outside myself, broken down, lost to myself,
and unable to bear the unendurable brightness of that glory.
And so, I turned
and fled into the night of the senses.
>>7849831
I was gonna buy that once but fought it looked too weeabish. (I'm not really into jap shit.) just thought you should know.
>>7850877
lol thats what pilate asked jesus you silly pleb
>>7851539
>Christian poetry
Ooh yeah son. You need to check out my boi John Donne's Holy Sonnets. Here's one of my favorites:
Batter my heart, three-person'd God, for you
As yet but knock, breathe, shine, and seek to mend;
That I may rise and stand, o'erthrow me, and bend
Your force to break, blow, burn, and make me new.
I, like an usurp'd town to another due,
Labor to admit you, but oh, to no end;
Reason, your viceroy in me, me should defend,
But is captiv'd, and proves weak or untrue.
Yet dearly I love you, and would be lov'd fain,
But am betroth'd unto your enemy;
Divorce me, untie or break that knot again,
Take me to you, imprison me, for I,
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.
>>7852482
Not him and I haven't read it, but it's a historical novel about missionaries, written in like the 60's so I doubt it would be weabish, despite the (quite weabish) cover.
>>7852693
It doesn't even feel Japanese honestly. It feels genuinely as if it were written by a Portuguese monk.
Has anyone read The Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, that the Mel Gibson film was based on? I've been wanting to read it.
>>7854168
No, but the movie is goat
>>7851539
beautiful
>>7850446
I like him. Plantinga remodeled the argument very well btw.
>>7854825
Strange for a Calvinist desu
>>7854829
>Christian socialism
>neo orthodox protestant
>doctrine of election
I'm almost as triggered by him as I'm by pope Francis
>>7849831
Honestly I wasn't enjoying it much at first, but by the last 4th it had developed into fantastic literature. So many great moments even if the prose isn't all that good.
On a slightly related note: Is it impossible for books translated from Japanese to have great prose?
>>7854855
I don't know much about weaboonese, but considering the order of words themselves is quite different than what we are used to it is quite possible.
>>7854880
I recall Nabokov saying he didn't even want to imagine how his books were like after translated into Japanese. Seems like there's too much of a barrier
>>7854889
This is the only Japanese novel I've read, do any others have notable prose in English or other western languages?
There seems to be a movement to only recognise the teachings of Christ and not his divinity. This will only lead to people abandoning both; as it is in the Islamic tradition where he is revered as a prophet but they deny fundamental parts of his teachings when it contradicts their doctrine. This will be true when peoples self interests overide Christs message of self denial and the death of self.
> Broad is the the road that leads to destruction
Christ does not just tell you to follow his teachings; but conform completly to him.
Why does all aspects of life and though have to be so prosaic in this modern age?
>>7854908
Destruction of self isn't a Christian doctrine, unlike shaping yourself to be like Christ in the path he intended you to walk. So being as Christ like as a father, a writer, a lawyer or any other calling.
>>7854921
Was he a Christian? I know he's a big postmodern author and that's it. Tell me more.
>>7850420
>Favourite book of the bible?
James.
>Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
Flannery O'Connor is absolutely amazing, she's one of my favorite authors right now.
Also any Edward Feser fans here? Just started his philosophy of the mind and after that I'll go for Locke, Hayek and Scholastic Metaphysics.
>>7854933
i just picked up gravity and grace and the war and the iliad, haven't read much of them but they seem interesting. is there much lost in the translation of weil? im working on my french, so it is definitely an option for me to try my hand at reading her in french if it would be beneficial.
>>7854927
>Was he a Christian?
Yes. The title is taken from Clement of Rome. Christian themes run throughout the book. Read it.
>>7854966
Christian post modernism sounds strange, but I'll keep it in mind. Right now I'll focus on philosophy for a wile and see where I go from there.
>>7854980
It's really not a "postmodern" novel. It just gets called that because it later influenced authors like Pynchon and DFW.
>>7854992
It's a really long novel. It'll go on my to read eventually. The Wikipedia is quite small considering his influence, Wolfe has a larger, more descriptive and useful one and he isn't exactly a big influence on American most praised authors of the past 100 years.
>>7855009
>The Wikipedia is quite small considering his influence
Indeed. Gaddis is pretty infamous for being quite influential yet quite obscure at the same time.
"Gaddis has become famous for not being famous enough." - Cynthia Ozick
>>7855019
The strange thing is there is a massive part devoted to who likes him and nothing to things he known for in themes or his Christianity. Now also does he have any shorter works I might start with?
I'm currently reading John Calvin's Institutes. It'll probably take me a while, theres so much information that I can only read a section or 2 a day
>>7855040
>Christian literature
>Calvin
It doesn't work that way
>>7855031
The only other book of his that I've read is JR, and it's over 700 pages long.
>>7855070
Damn why didn't he write some shorter stuff?
>>7855053
John Calvin was a Christian
I understand Christ to you is a old white man sitting in a chair
>>7854655
Definitely agree. I really admire the fact that they put the whole movie in actual biblical languages.
>>7854168
My mother was reading it for Lent, I'm not sure if she finished it or not.
On a related note, I read the Book of Job for Lent. That's powerful stuff. It almost leaves you with a sense of helplessness. You feel so inadequate knowing that there's no way you can fathom God's plan or really judge him. It's probably necessary, I suppose. Man isn't meant to sit in judgment of God.
>tfw bought a book on learning Latin so I can read Jerome's Bible and Augustine in their original, glorious tongue.
What am I in for Christ-bros?
>>7856700
>what am I in for?
Great latin literature, and not just augustine. It will, however, be pretty difficult learning Latin on your own.
>>7856700
>Jerome's Bible
>original, glorious tongue
granted,
>Jerome's
but dude,
>Latin
>Bible's original etc
On this day; death was dethroned.
