...and MIkhail Bulgakov in general?
>>7824788
Starting a thread should be sharing an opinion.
what about you tell us what you think.
>>7824788
I keep on trying to read this book, and every time I do, it vanishes for like 3 months until I finally find it under a dust bin or something
I must have read up to that roman dude 3-4 times now
>>7824788
Best novel ever written as far as I'm concerned
His other things are also good but not as good as M&M
Personally I liked the style and thought it was an enjoyable read but didn't really get anything 'deeper' out of the book in terms of themes or morals. It may as well have just been called 'The Wonderful Wacky Adventures of Satan and his Gang in Moscow'. That said, I think lots of the meaning came from the context (i.e. Soviet Russia) and I'm not that familiar with it, and also I am a pleb, so I'd like for someone to explain it to me properly and then nod and pretend that I'd been reaching the same conclusions when I read it.
>>7824818
Bumping since I'm wondering as well, but from what I've heard the chapters which take place in Yershalaim are somehow an allegory for Soviet Russia. That's all I know, however.
>>7824818
Well, there are lots of references to Jesus, Judas, etc. as well. It's not profound, but it certainly is interesting, especially because of the link to what's happening in Russia.
>>7824818
>Personally I liked the style and thought it was an enjoyable read but didn't really get anything 'deeper' out of the book in terms of themes or morals. It may as well have just been called 'The Wonderful Wacky Adventures of Satan and his Gang in Moscow'.
Did you not get any of the religious allegory? The Faust allusions? Did you not see the parallels between the Jerusalem of the Master's story and the Moscow of the main narrative? You did understand how profoundly satirical it is of Soviet institutions, right? Did you catch all the contrasts/comparisons - Satan and Yeshua? The Master and Pilate? Do you get how the difference between the Masters story and the gospel version plays into the conversation about the historicity of Jesus at the beginning?
I read it in one night when I was like 17. I was home alone and my parents were hours late, and this was before cellphones were a thing so they couldn't warn me. I got seriously spooked that night.
>>7824849
I understood some of the religious allegory, but didn't really see its purpose. That's not to say that I don't believe it had a good purpose, just that I'm still trying to work it out and it wasn't evident to me on first reading. Was it a response to the dictatorial atheism of the Soviet era? And by criticising society in the Jerusalem story he was really criticising the Soviet Moscow, which of course was not allowed? That's all I could really take from it, but I'm sure there's more.
As for Faust, unfortunately I've not read it and never studied it at school, so I daresay those allusions went straight over my head. I'd like to read it though because it seems to be one of those key texts which a lot of more modern novels are inspired by or make reference to.
I'm not trying to say that the book lacks any of these deeper meanings, just that they weren't obvious to me for various reasons. Firstly I think to truly understand any piece of art you have to understand the context in which it was created, and I'm still relatively ignorant about the Soviet era. Secondly, I think 'reading' a book (in terms of extracting themes and morals that aren't explicit) is a skill, and I'm still developing that skill. I've not studied literature since high school and only read for pleasure, so it's difficult to devote as much time as I'd like to to actually studying the book.
>>7824788
Up there in my fav books list. Heart of a Dog is also a rad novella too.
>>7824818
I agree. It's a fun read but it lacks any serious intellectual value.
>>7824927
To clarify, I wasn't saying that the book lacks any serious intellectual value, just that I hadn't found any yet.
>>7824928
Don't worry there's nothing to find
>>7824788
I didn't like it. I guess it just isn't my genre.
>>7824899
Nice reply. I'm amazed by your attitude, don't be discouraged by /lit/.
>>7824899
Alright, maybe I was being a bit of a dick as >>7825062 pointed out, so I'll try and give you some pointers.
You're certainly on to something when you're interpreting the religious elements as a reaction to state-sanctioned Soviet atheism. Religion is everywhere in M&M, but if often goes hand in hand with a reaction to Soviet attitudes. That isn't to say that every instance of Christian elements being mentioned is to be taken as a stab at Soviet society - Bulgakov is definitely going for something beyond that. Mind you, he's no Christian apologist, and he has no interest in showing you the wonders of Russian orthodoxy - this isn't Dostoyevsky. But the life in the Soviet Union he's describing seems vain, materialistic, devoid of a greater purpose beyond the mundane, even in the arts. Take MASSOLIT, which is an obvious satire of the kind of writers guilds that existed in the SU at the time. Everyone there is more concerned with backroom arrangements for summer dachas and eating at their excellent restaurant. People want to become a member of this writing guild for the food and the vacations, not to become great writers and cultivate their art.
An obvious instance of religous methaphor happens early in the novel: after witnessing the incident at Patriarch Ponds, Bezdomny runs off after Woland, but fails to capture him. He ends up going to the Volga and decides to bathe in it. When he comes out, his clothes are gone, and he wanders through Moscow in a Tolstoy shirt with an icon and a candle. In short, Bezdomny has been baptised. Baptism means an entry into the Christian church, the beginning of your life with Christ and the casting aside of a life of a sin. After his Volga swim, Bezdomny returns to MASSOLIT only to start a riot and being dragged of to the mental institution. There he comes to his senses, and decides to no longer write his state-sanctioned poetry (Which he and the Master agree was actually crap anyway). The meaning of the ritual of baptism is carried over to Bezdomny's new attitudes, but it's by no means a direct religious conversion.
A lot of other religious symbolism in M&M works like this: Bulgakov isn't shilling for Jesus, but he does see the pompuously self-assured atheism of the new Soviet order as a symptom of a wider problem of society, and the religious iconography is a way of attacking the attitudes of the now Socialist Russia.
Another reason why you shouldn't take the religious elements at face value because you run the risk of thinking of Bulgakov as some kind of reactionary - the Russian monarchy was closely associated with religious practices. Bulgakov is very critical of the prevailing attitudes of society, but he's also well aware of the advancements brought by the socialist regime.
>>7825095
Quality response.
I've read it recently and I always have a problem with detecting humour and satire in novels so everything went over my head.
>>7825095
(part 2)
>As for Faust, unfortunately I've not read it and never studied it at school, so I daresay those allusions went straight over my head.
Yeah, that's kind of a dealbreaker when it comes to gaining deeper insights into M&M. There are a lot of Faustian elements to the whole work. Woland, the main Satanic figure (well, if Woland is Satan :^)) bears an obvious ressemblance to Mephistopheles from Faust, both in appearance and character. The Master is a recognisable Faustian figure (manuscripts don't burn, for instance). The most interesting parallel is between Margarita from the novel and Gretchen(a bastardisation of Margaret) in Faust. In Goethe's Faust, Gretchen is seduced by Faust, gets pregnant, kills her child(remember the woman and the handkerchief from the novel?) but is saved in the end by her proper virtue. In M&M, Margarita saves the Master, gets Woland to return the Manuscript, and lives with him forever in a pleasant twilight area, all by properly serving Woland at his Walpurgis night ball. Gretchen is a victim of demonic interference, but is saved in the end by divine grace. Margarita willfully associates with demonic elements, and saves the Master and herself with the Devil's help.
By the way, Margarita/Gretchen is a clear allusion to Saint Margaret(Margaret the Virgin), a saint commonly associated with fighting demonic elements, and usually depicted with a hammer. Remember the part where she smashes up all those windows of the critics appartment?
A third big thing is also the the structure of the novel itself, and specifically how the events and setting of the main story parallel those of the Master's story about Pontius Pilate. Rome and Jerusalem, Walpurgis Night and Easter, Pilate and the Master, Yeshua and Woland, the sun setting and rising, etc. This also plays into the religous symbolism thing I mentioned before. It's important to pick up on, because it really ties the whole thing together. For instance, the book starts off with Berlioz and Bezdomny arguing about the historicity of Jesus, with Berlioz arguing the socially approved viewpoint that the whole thing is a myth, while Bezdomny argues that its an embellished story and trying to describe a flawed human version of Christ. If you compare the gospel to the Master's story, you might certainly think he has a point! But then Yeshua himself appears near the end, and he is nothing short of a Biblical saviour figure, releasing Pilate from his two thousand years of waiting. And then compare Pilates rejection of Yeshua and the Master burning his novel and being interned. Yeshua, biblical or the Master's version, would certainly be someone Soviet society couldn't get along with. Which again kind of brings you full circle to the religous symbolism and societal criticism.
>>7825095
What is the best English translation of M&M?
>>7825095
Nice response. I think I understood the book, but you've brought up some interesting insights.
>Bulgakov as some kind of reactionary
I've always thought so before.
>>7825169
I always thought of his rhetorical strategy as highly ironic fatalism. He highlights absurdity in the new atheist system by comparing it to the absurdity of the old ways and then shrugs and moves on
Morphine was interesting too
>>7825147
>Rome and Jerusalem
I meant Moscow and Jerusalem, shit.
>>7825150
Oh man, I have no idea. I have the Glenny version which is considered too liberal, so don't get that one I guess.
>>7825169
Throughout all the social satire in the book, nobody even thinks of going back to Czarist days. Literally. Nobody mentions pre-revolution days at all. Bulgakov even makes a point of showing all the modern amenities of Soviet life(the trams, the writers guild, the appartments, the mental hospital, the whole modern police dog squad scene). He's discontent with the current socialist system, but he doesn't think it should be overthrown.
Some of Bulgakovs other works, like The White Guard and Heart of a Dog, make his stand on the revolution clearer - basically, he thinks overall that the new regime isn't meaningfully better than the old. In M&M, most of the new intellectual elite are depicted as no more but also no less intelligent and sensible than the previous.
I like a lot of it.
I like Bulgakovs bravery as a writer so speak his mind.
I like the ideas and creativity of this work
But to call this a masterpiece is too much. It lacks far deeper moral/philosophical themes but that is just my opinion
>>7824788
fantastic, great book, in my top 3 of all time definitely, a feast of genius and invention
>>7824788
GOAT
>>7824788
One of my favorite books.
>>7824788
Is the "long-suppressed" and "only unexpurgated version" stuff on the cover legit, or just publisher hype?
>>7825150
The Burgin and O'Connor translation is pretty good as far as I know. The commentary in the back of the book is solid also.
>>7824788
Russian in the thread. Was made to read it in school. Proto urban fantasy, lol. Cool idea of the devil in an athestic country, completely fucked up by monotonoes language and snail speed of the plot. A Young Doctor's Notebook is better imo.
1. Master and Margerita
2. Black Snow
3. Young Doctors Notebook
4. Fatal Eggs
5. Heart of a Dog
6. Diaboliad and other stories
7. White guard
FIGHT ME
>>7826160
so it's better in translation? because I read it in english and thought the prose did its job well. no nabokov or joyce, but simple and got the job done
heard one hundred years of solitude is this way also
>>7827113
Different Russian Anon here; I thought the prose was good, I didn't find the language detracting from the meaning at all.
>>7824917
Why don't you go fuck yourself you piece of repugnant shit
Anyone got a online copy of the Burgin and O'Connor translation? Found a link in the archives, but I'm four years too late and I can't access it anymore.
