I'm starting with the Greeks and have finally decided to buy the following:
Homer
The Iliad translated by Robert Fitzegerald
The Odessey translated by Robert Fitzegerald
Aeschylus
The Oresteia translated by George Thomas
Herodotus
The Histories translated by George Rawlinson
Plato
The Republic by translated AD Lindsay
Plato
Symposium and Phaedrus translated by Tom Griffith
Sophocles
The Theban Plays translated by David Grene
Am I on the right track?
Get Strassler's edition of Herodotus.
Don't start with The Republic.
Get his complete works, or get these ones at least:
Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Meno, Symposium, Republic, Timaeus
>>7806365
What's wrong with George Rawlinson?
>>7806309
>he fell for the meme
I wonder how much money newbies have wasted because of the 'start with le greeks' maymay
>>7806400
>wasted
I feel sorry for you lol
>>7806407
Why? Buying those books is a waste for those who'll never read them
>>7806412
You are clearly in a false impression to think I won't read them.
>>7806378
OP, Just read the first four this guy mentioned online (they're short) and then proceed with whatever you want.
If you start the Republic cold you'll probably think "is Socrates retarded? Justice is justice! 20 pages of semantics is enough!" With the others you start to "get" him and it makes it go much faster.
Otherwise damn good list!
>>7806441
What if I start with Symposium and Phaedrus translated by Tom Griffith and then move to The Republic without reading Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Meno? Will that still be convenient because I'm way too confused with the translators for each of them. Would you suggest me better translator for Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Meno and Timaeus?
>>7806412
maybe also because nobody reads that
seriously
if you want to get a sense of greek philosophy and culture you can just read parts of the iliad and the odyssey
for the philosophy it's better to pick up an high school philosophy book or a general book of philosophy to get an idea of what they were thinking and then get to the actual book. The same things are repeated anyways and they all belong to the same general ideas
key points in antique greek philosophy are : Plato's myths, the opposition between socrates and the sophist in Gorgias, the reflexion and myths on desire in the Symposium... The Republic is largely disregarded today as a political work.
Then there is greek drama, learn a bit about tragedy (for example Aristotle describes it in Poetics and greek tragedies mostly apply his theory) and only then read Sophocles' Oedipus
>>7806309
If you read Herodotus you should read Thucydides, he's a great base in moral and political philosophy and after book 1 it's quite exciting.
Anabasis is a great laugh and short so you should get it.
I also prefer the Roeu translation of Homer
>>7806482
No, the Republic is still an important piece because it contains such points as the descent of democracies into tyranny and a critique of democracy from people who witnessed many types of government that isn't communism. The Republic addresses many fundamental questions of both politics and philosophy and it is probably the most worthwhile and influential work of Plato.
Plato's possibly sarcastic philosopher king idea is the part that's disregarded in the modern academia. From which period does it become worth it to read the actual works?
>>7806457
Just read this and then go for the Symposium:
http://www.sjsu.edu/people/james.lindahl/courses/Phil70A/s3/apology.pdf
>>7806514
>From which period does it become worth it to read the actual works ?
From the 17th century on I guess, since that's modern literature. Of course before is still interesting but it's more something to know about rather than something to read entirely, it's unlikely that anybody picks up a copy of Plato's republic or Dante's inferno to read before bed ! OP wanted to read nearly all the works of Plato...it's not even knowledge-efficient
also about Plato's republic, you're talking about the descent of democracies into tyranny but Plato presents it as positive and even as necessary. The switch from actual politic to his utopia-land comes through violent action for example... thats what is criticized.
I dont think Plato is truly a political philosopher like Aristotle is for example.
>>7806389
Nothing, but Strassler's 'Complete Herodotus' is really outstanding in integrating maps and sidenotes to the text so that it makes sense to a newcomer/lay-person. His entire line of histories is really well done.
>>7806635
Stop fucking shilling your borderline encyclopedic landmark editions. Absolutely way too much content for a first-time Greek primary source reader, especially one who doesn't plan on studying the hell out of the subject.
OP just follow the Greek chart. If you're not familiar with poetry, Fitzgerald will be tough for Homer. Not sure about Rawlinson's Herodotus, but Waterfield's edition for Oxford Press is well respected. For Plato you don't have to read everything, but don't immediately jump to the big stuff like Republic. Definitely read the first four dialogues about Socrates' trial and death, and shop around some other dialogues before moving to Republic.
>>7806729
If you aren't familiar with the geography of Greece and the ancient world, more than half of Herodotus will be wasted on you (so too will Thucydides and Xenophon). I'm not recommending the equivalent of landmark editions for things like Plato or Aristophanes or Sophocles, but when it comes to works of history? Ignorance of geography in history is ignorance of necessary context.
>>7806729
>Don't read Thucydides with maps!! It's way too much info!!
Meanwhile, in Thucydides..
>Then they turned left at the Bog of Wog. Then they turned right for 50 stades until they reached the Bosthmius. Then they turned north and adjusted their path until they aimed at the Sea of Boobs and crossed the Silsmis at the point where it meets the Xemothodos.
THANK GOD I READ THIS WITHOUT A MAP AND SIMPLE EXPLANATORY FOOTNOTES!
>>7806852
Can you recommend the equivalent of landmark editions for Homer, Plato, Aristophanes, Sophocles? I'll be very thankful to you.
>>7806365
Does is comes with sewen binding?
>>7806729
>>7806873
Literally every single primary source publication will have maps at the back. You don't need a diagram on every page. Unless you're a scholar, it doesn't matter what marshes were crossed or which valleys housed the army camp. And if you were a scholar you'd be reading in Ancient Greek.
Landmarks are a great way for an early reader to become totally overwhelmed with what should be a fairly straightforward narrative for all these ancient historians. Their writing as simple texts as insights into Greek culture and philosophy, and their writing as comprehensive, modernized historical and archaeological investigations are two completely different things. "Starting with the Greeks" refers to the former.
You guys are placing hilariously disproportionate import on the details. If you want to "start with the Greeks," you're better off without Landmarks. If you want to mine every bit of information possible from the Greeks, you'd better fucking show me your collections of Pausanias and Strabo, and you'd better type your reply in Ancient Greek.
>>7806897
After refitting their ships, Gylippus and Pythen coasted along from Tarentum to Epizephyrian Locris. They now received the more correct information that Syracuse was not yet completely invested, but that it was still possible for an army arriving at Epipolae to effect an entrance; and they consulted, accordingly, whether they should keep Sicily on their right and risk sailing in by sea, or, leaving it on their left, should first sail to Himera and, taking with them the Himeraeans and any others that might agree to join them, go to Syracuse by land. Finally they determined to sail for Himera, especially as the four Athenian ships which Nicias had at length sent off, on hearing that they were at Locris, had not yet arrived at Rhegium. Accordingly, before these reached their post, the Peloponnesians crossed the strait and, after touching at Rhegium and Messina, came to Himera. Arrived there, they persuaded the Himeraeans to join in the war, and not only to go with them themselves but to provide arms for the seamen from their vessels which they had drawn ashore at Himera; and they sent and appointed a place for the Selinuntines to meet them with all their forces. A few troops were also promised by the Geloans and some of the Sicels, who were now ready to join them with much greater alacrity, owing to the recent death of Archonidas, a powerful Sicel king in that neighbourhood and friendly to Athens, and owing also to the vigour shown by Gylippus in coming from Lacedaemon. Gylippus now took with him about seven hundred of his sailors and marines, that number only having arms, a thousand heavy infantry and light troops from Himera with a body of a hundred horse, some light troops and cavalry from Selinus, a few Geloans, and Sicels numbering a thousand in all, and set out on his march for Syracuse.
Gylippus, after taking Ietae, a fort of the Sicels, on his way, formed his army in order of battle, and so arrived at Epipolae, and ascending by Euryelus, as the Athenians had done at first, now advanced with the Syracusans against the Athenian lines. His arrival chanced at a critical moment. The Athenians had already finished a double wall of six or seven furlongs to the great harbour, with the exception of a small portion next the sea, which they were still engaged upon;
hen Gylippus saw that they did not come on, he led off his army to the citadel of the quarter of Apollo Temenites, and passed the night there. On the following day he led out the main body of his army, and, drawing them up in order of battle before the walls of the Athenians to prevent their going to the relief of any other quarter, dispatched a strong force against Fort Labdalum, and took it, and put all whom he found in it to the sword, the place not being within sight of the Athenians.
>enjoy constantly flipping to the awkward shitty tiny maps in the back
>enjoy when your edition is lazily put together and has lousy maps that don't actually help you
>>7806897
Look up the definition of 'false dichotomy' and you will see this post cited ('either just read a straight translation for the narrative, or read the original in ancient Greek!' as if there is no middle ground).
Maps in the back of most Herodotus/Thucydides/etc provide nowhere near the detail necessary to understand much of what they are talking about.
If you place zero importance on the influence of Geography on history, OK, fine. But you're ignorant to do so, and Herodotus would have shaken his head at you, given how much he describes different geographies in the Histories. Not to mention the importance the Greeks themselves placed on it, recognizing certain landmarks like rivers and mountains as minor deities.
As I said before, the philosophical/theatrical works don't need the Strassler treatment. The historical works, however, do benefit from it.
>>7806913
>the philosophical/theatrical works don't need the Strassler treatment. The historical works, however, do benefit from it.
I agree with this, Anon.
>>7806309
I really liked Oedipus the King of Sophocles
Serious question:
Does the Everyman's Library version of Herodotus: Histories comes with maps like that of Landmarks Edition? If yes, see .gif.
>>7806943
It has good notes throughout the text, but it doesn't have the maps integrated in the same way (it would be tough to do that well given the physical dimensions of the pages).
>>7806956
But does it has maps integrated on the same pages and not in back?
>>7806873
This. I've read both Herodotus and Thuycdides with just foot-notes in the back and maps in the front of the book, and forgot large parts of both because I channelled out after they name dropped a billion small stupid settlements and people who they never come back to and sound alike who you would have trouble finding and find frustrating swipping all the pages to the beginning and looking through the multiple maps to find them. It was like the Catalog of Ships 2 & 3, but this time, being 500-600 pages each.
Here's how Thuycdides sounds without the Landmark:
"On the 4th year of the start of the war, the Athenian assembly sent Hippolaus, Byboas, and Cnidious with 500 hoplites and 10 triremes to Locian Colosse and contingents by it's subjects of Melos, Samos, Delos, Pelos, Celos, Telos and by it's allies Colosse, Byblos, Boura, Apollonia, Cretan Apollonia, Mysian Apollonia, Aetolian Apollonia, Thracian Apollonia; Carians from Halicarnassus, Iasus, Callipolis, Cnidos, Myndus, and Mylasa to capture the envoys sent by the Argians and Corinthians encamping there to travel to Lesbos. Along the way, they went to pick up tributes from Cessene, Amphigeneia, Asine, Messene, Megerian Apollonia before spotting wind of a detachment Spartan and Theban triremes and embarked hopltes on the nearby shore at Nicoplis at Eprirus sent to flank them as they went to habour in Amphigeneia. The Carians were first to spot them and sent 2 of their triremes ahead with Athenans and Samians on their right. The Thebans flanked them and did damage to 1 ship of the Malians causing it to bank ashore causing a scamble between the Byblians and the Spartan Messenians. During the skemish, one of the Spartan leaders Euryphorates was killed by the Melians in the reserve of the fleet, causing the Spartans and Thebans to withdraw to Chalcis before trading the bodies of the fallen with the Athenians and their contingents on the third day. The Athenians sat up trophy of the armor and booty to commemorate their victory at Nicopolis before embarking to Thespiae due to strong winds. Thus ends Springs during the 4th year of the Peloponnesian War."
Herodotus is the same, but with a bunch of Greek-translated Asiatic names which scholars are trying to figure out where he meant.
>>7806879
There's no landmark for them. The landmark series only includes Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, and Arrian. You won't need landmarks or maps that much with Plato, Aristophanes, and Sophocles. You do want to have some maps printed out with Homer or an edition that includes a few maps of Greece while reading him, but he isn't as bad as the historians who name-dropped locations to sound more professional for even remembering them and wrote them for Greek audiences who knew all of them and didn't have maps themselves.
wut
>>7807020
Catalog of Ships is vastly improved with a map as well.
>>7807020
All right. Now tell me is there better translation of Homer, Plato, Aristophanes, and Sophocles other than what OP has mentioned? Now tell me the Landmark version of transtations. The most superior.
>>7807024
That's pretty funny, I guess it's finding shit like Attica New York
>>7806910
The irony is that if you think all those geographical details are significant, you've already missed the point of why people start with the Greeks.
>>7806913
By all means tell me what Herodotus and Thucydides said which can't be understood with simple maps of Greece, Sicily, Asia Minor, and the seas in between. I never said geography has zero importance. It's undeniably crucial. It's also undeniably not the fucking point of the Greeks as they are read in terms of "starting with the Greeks." It's laughable to cite the priorities of Herodotus, as though history as a genre was perfected by its first ever writer, as though Thucydides isn't already a totally different style of historian, and as though Herodotus is faultless. I don't hear too much mention from you of the questionable statistics or apocryphal myths which run rampant in Herodotus' undeniably charming but hardly ideal Histories.
>>7807020
Again, none of those details are significant for "starting with the Greeks." If you want to mine ancient historical texts for information, go nuts with Loeb's 8 volume collection of Strabo's geography. But that's not the point. There are hundreds of locations and names which get mentioned once, never to be heard of again. You're not supposed to know everything about everything.
The fact that you have trouble recognizing names like Rhegium of all places is a decent indicator that you have read few if any primary sources beyond the most obvious household names, and frankly have no ability to properly comment on the significance of geographical details and archaeological nuances within primary sources, let alone the broader significance of specific writers in Greek culture or history as a whole.
But by all means read your Landmark texts, and then wonder why you have trouble reading less accessible but hardly less significant primary sources whose editions don't offer to hold your hand. The Greeks are a fucking exercise, not an end, and you have entirely missed the point of them.
>>7807086
autism.
>The fact that you have trouble recognizing names like Rhegium of all places is a decent indicator that you have read few if any primary sources beyond the most obvious household names
>lol only specialists need to """start with the greeks"""" with any rigour, amateurs are fine just picking up the book :^) it's fine man just pick it up :^)
>HHAHAHAHAAHA HLMFAO YOU DONT KNOW WHAT THE STRAITS OF MESSINA ARE?? HOLLLLLLLY SHIT BRO LMAO I TOOK GREEK IN UNDERGRAD
t. also took greek in undergrad and read more than you
you lost, stop moving goalpoasts
>>7807104
“I should like to please you, my friends, but I should much prefer to save you.”
Best of luck.
>>7807086
Your arguments are really, genuinely shit. It's made obvious by their construction that you think in either/or terms. See:
>You're not supposed to know everything about everything.
>>7807112
SHOW ME YOUR FUCKING EDITION OF STRABO RIGHT NOW! IT HAD BETTER BE SIGNED BY STRABO!
>>7807112
>but I should much prefer to save you
No, you don't. You want to posture and set yourself above everyone else.
>>7807086
What on earth is your problem with some maps sprinkled throughout a text, anon? Are you some professional academic, translator, or publisher whose editions of ancient Greek histories have lost sales because Strassler (an amateur himself) had an idea to put maps and notes in line with the texts? Jesus, man. You protest too much.
>By all means tell me what Herodotus and Thucydides said which can't be understood with simple maps of Greece, Sicily, Asia Minor, and the seas in between
OK, let's take some very simple, very important examples. An understanding of how the beaches of Marathon existed at the time of the Persian landing *greatly* enhances ones ability to understand how Miltiades' tactics of a week center line with strong flanks would have worked (and how, for example [again, using an obvious one] Leonidas would have been a fool to use the same tactics at Thermopylae.
How about understanding the relative geographies and locations of towns that Xerxes encountered (and that surrendered to him) after he bridged the Hellespont and made his way around and down into Greece?
Or how about a bit of detail about the lay of the seas at Salamis, or the land at Plataea?
And this is all just mainland Greece during the Persian invasions. Best of luck when we start talking about Greek cities in Asia Minor, or we get to the Peleponnesian Wars themselves start needing more detail in Greece, or about Sicily and what happened in and around Syracuse.
Reading about all of those is greatly enhanced by having more geographical information than you're going to get in the half-dozen general maps in the back of your Oxford edition of Herodotus.
>>7808329
When your brain is wasted after reading hours of translated Ancient Greek the only remedy is Aristophanes and Menander. Ey
