What does /lit/ think about /v/ in general? I haven't played in years but apparently these next-gen games have hollywood-esque budgets and such. It seems as once movies became based off books, /v/ are becoming as such.
>>7798055
dont play american shit is bad.
>>7798055
we all think it's shit
but when they try to do things only games can do, i respect that
that's the only way forward, otherwise bread and circuses
>>7798055
this image terrifies me
>>7798055
vidya has the problem that it appeared at the height of capitalism so ratio of auteurs/people looking to make a buck is not that good. contrast with film or literature or classic music, where there's the niche of "the heightening of the art is important, not money" is far bigger and more strongly established.
we probably have to slog through a decade or two of mostly casual popcorn crap before there's a real culture of excellence existing somewhere in vidya development
videogames are not & can never be art
>>7798055
I think the only games that qualify as art are those that barely qualify as games like Uriel's Chasm.
>>7798092
Are all the graduates of top tier schools who work on AAA games not artists?
>>7798055
Video-games cannot be considered anything except entertainment: as long as video-games have agency (the player has control), it'll just be a mirror of the player's experience, not the authors.
Soulsborne games are art desu
>>7798106
lmao you're a retard
who provides the agency and the choices and who can choose what options to provide to the player? think long and hard about this question
>>7798112
no plebbit they are not, like how zelda, portal, memetale, metal gear and other shit are not ART.
>>7798113
It's nothing but masturbation.
The author is jerking you off, but you're still gettin' jerked.
>hollywood-esque budgets and such
therein lies the problem. With so much money on the line no one will take any risks, they'll just keep churning out bland, safe, lowest common denominator crap. Ever notice how almost all big budget hollywood movies suck? Add to that the problem that the average video game consumer is even dumber than the average movie consumer so producers adjust their games accordingly. In my opinion the best games are similar to chess or cards, it's the mechanics that count. If you're looking for art and story, good luck.
>>7798122
and how is this different from film or literature?
>>7798130
You aren't experiencing anything new, just what you want to be shown. See what I'm saying?
>>7798136
no, that makes absolutely no sense. someone has designed the experience, just as in film or literature. the experience is only fed to the experiencer in a different format
>>7798124
This. Low-budget game development is way harder than low-budget film-making, by the nature of production costs. So even with passion projects there's a prohibitively high amount of money that needs to be thrown away (no $4000 short film labours of love).
On the other hand, The Beginner's Guide is easily more aesthetically interesting than like 90% of the books I've read, and easily the first game to really make a case that the form has unique strengths. Sort of equidistant from avant-garde bullshit and from the mainstream, like Blue Velvet, or IJ. Loved it.
>>7798103
Money
all video games except RTSs and grand strat are just the modern opiate of the masses
You are dead for as long as you play a video game and then resume your life when you're done and your life plays out as though you never played that game at all.
A gamer is someone with no life accomplishments.
This conversation is kind of perfect. When novels were first coming out, they were seen as wastes of time too. Games are basically getting the same treatment these days. But games are becoming more and more complex in terms of story craft. Some games aren't worth mentioning, but some are beautiful. Same with novels.
>>7798239
so deep
may I suggest you to visit r/books/ and r/videogames/ where your lucidity of thought will surely be appreciated
>>7798055
It all went to shit once video games stopped being a nerd thing and normal people got into it. Now you've got hordes of proles propping up bad businesses through their obsession with FIFA, ancient Japanese businessmen with loads of talent at their disposal but no idea what to do with them, the idea of spectacle being placed above something that's actually fun to play and, what I personally think is worst, some of the most pretentious and insipid attempts at profundity in the history of art. The average video game that gets praised for depth, writing or whatever else along those lines usually makes Alejandro Innaritu look like Derek Jarman.
It all needs to burn, but as long as FIFA exists it won't. It's amazing how in such a short time video games became arguably so much worse than Hollywood. I've probably enjoyed under ten video games made since 2006.
>>7798219
This is pretty true, video games do absolutely nothing but pass time in 999/1000 cases. Why the exception for certain strategy games though? Dawn of War: Soulstorm is one of the only games I can bring myself to play anymore, does that make me more patrician than most?
>>7798239
I love video games but fuck yourself. Video games are a supreme waste of time, even the most patrician of them.
>>7798253
That's still going into that same train of thought though. If a game can tell a story that can move a person, then it should deserve some credit.
>>7798247
I find the general premise of FIFA to be similar to paintings attempting to capture reality, though of course there's a huge layer of "lets milk retards out of their money" on top. At least pick something like CoD. And no I don't play either game.
>This is pretty true, video games do absolutely nothing but pass time in 999/1000 cases
what is something like a tarantino movie then? they're nothing but entertainment but still considered "art"
>>7798055
too much money involved to create art
>my room mate spends literally 12 hours a day playing video games
'Anon you don't understand, video games are an art and a sport'
>CoD and TF2
>>7798055
After much time in my youth, I eventually discovered that what I really enjoyed most in games was reading well written dialogue and character. Then I just started reading literature instead.
>>7798103
yes
>>7798239
games are not new things you dolt
>>7798271
the best video games qua video games are those that rely almost entirely on mechanics, and the those that tell a 'good story' can never do it nearly as well as a good novel. it'll always be stuck in that rut, which it per se can't get out of, by its very design. just go play chess or tennis or something.
>>7798316
i was rustled
good job
you thought that one out well
i don't rustle easily
next time make it funny, though
i only have mild admiration; we could have shared a laugh
>>7798352
I could have thrown in some playing Final Fantasy for the plot, Harry Potter and some other genre fiction garbage but I was actually being quite serious.
>>7798352
what the fuck is this post? jesus, man, you're freaking me out.
Anyhow, that was all entirely serious, and not 'bait', as the local kids are wont to say.
>>7798366
dubs
>>7798372
why point it out? Literally 1 in 10 posts has dubs
>>7798055
I love games, I really do. I just don't like it when games try to emulate literature or film in an effort to 'raise' their form. They forget that the art is in the gameplay.
Games sparked my interest in a lot of things to be honest. I don't think I would have ever enjoyed History if I hadn't played Rome: Total War
>>7798412
>>7798404
TRIARII
>>7798404
I used to play the one of the Total War games at friends place, I don't know which edition it was but everytime you selected a character it would say "I am Napoleon!" in a weird French accent.
I used to research war tactics to beat my friends in LAN Rise of Nations. Tfw I beat my current room mate using hammer and anvil every time
>>7798064
>but when they try to do things only games can do
Such as?
>>7798428
I've always appreciated Environmental Storytelling, it's quite minimal and if done very well can combine the best aspects of film (ie the visual) with literature (the interpret-able)
I've been trying my hand at writing a script for a video game. I've put a relatively large amount of time and effort into it. But, I don't have anyone to read it. It's really dangerous, as without critique I could be headed down the wrong direction and not even know it. It feels like I have to trick somebody into reading it. That, maybe if I compare it to something and say "it's the next x!" Then, someone will want to be contrary and prove me wrong. I was never a big reader. So it's very much like someone trying to draw the mona lisa using finger paints. What's a good resource for me to get critique? No one that I know has the time to read a ton of bullshit about shit that doesn't matter. Except here, where that's all that goes on day after day.
I play Dwarf Fortress according to Plato's take on the ideal republic-city.
>>7798441
post excerpts i need a laff
>>7798441
Post what you have so we can see.
>>7798443
How has that worked out for you?
>>7798441
You're wasting your time. You're supposed to create a game first, then write the story around it. If the story contradicts or cuts back on gameplay, you have to remove the story.
>>7798439
What are some games with good environmental storytelling?
the big budget ones are usually about gritty (male) heroes in some sort of war. that side of games are stagnant. it doesn't help that there is no general accepted theory of what makes a game good and the people who talk about them are usually not educated or insightful
>>7798092
there's really nothing about the history of art that makes this true
>>7798428
Being a game.
A novel can never be poetry can never be a film can never be a game can never be a novel. For gaming to evolve as an "art form" the focus needs to shift from the aspects which the human race has already covered to those it has not. A game focused on story can never be a truly great work of art, in the same way that a film focused on story can never be a truly great work of art but therein lies the problem; Gaming is a capitalistic endeavour right now. Consider:
A novel: Written by one person.
A film: Created by a team.
A game: Created by an even larger team.
It's just so expensive and difficult to actually make a GOOD game that the only people in a position to attempt it are those with no will to try.
This is why the new wave of Indie gaming is so important from an artistic standpoint, not because, as journalists and pretentious dickheads like to explain, their little stories are better but because it signposts a shift towards games becoming passion projects again.
>>7798461
Ugh, excuse me? My feelings make it true you shit lord
>>7798399
>I just don't like it when games try to emulate literature or film in an effort to 'raise' their form
Yeah but when has a game ever done that though?
>>7798302
how the fuck do you think artists were able to make art if they didn't have an income of people paying them to make it? renaissance workshops were primarily a business
>>7798458
Well, there's quite a few, and really it's just a small part of a bigger picture. I'd recommend Fallout: New Vegas, I remember that having a lot of neat scenes and areas. Valve Software, as well as developers involved with the now defunct Looking Glass Studios, you could say these were pioneers of that kind of thing, so anything by them is good.
I can't for the life of me think of any Japanese developers who do this kind of thing.
>>7798447
>>7798448
>>7798447
>>7798448
I've been at it for a couple of months and have a couple of documents. I might as well be honest, as I am anonymous. There's an overview which is a couple of pages explaining the concepts of the story. The "Dev Bible" document is about 30 pages of me discussing what's important about a game, what needs to be in it, and some different systems I want to try. Level 1 is at 115 pages of dialogue, setting, and descriptors. I didn't realize how much work it all was. A huge border exists between necessary and fantasy.
There's no way I'd post it publicly. I'd rather some private feedback, get some honest opinions, evaluate the status of the story and nix it entirely if it's not acceptable. It's just me, banging away on a keyboard when I have some spare time.
>>7798455
Yeah, you're right. I am aware of this. But, I'm terrible at code and can't into art. The one time I posted an adgd thread on /vg/ I was immediately called an ideas guy and laughed out of the thread. Just for wanting to try to write out a script instead of learning the code and making it myself.
I know I asked for help and am refusing to post my shit. But, I'd so much rather do it privately.
>>7798463
who invited clement greenberg
you'll find a lot more literary paintings than not
>>7798466
modern Naughty Dog
Metal Gear Solid series
Far Cry 3
El Shaddai: Ascension of the Metatron
David Cage's """"""""""""projects""""""""""""
The Chinese Room games and other 'walking simulators' (ie Vanishing of Ethan Carter, Kholat)
>>7798458
Metroids (Prime has no dialogue but is more engaging than most games when it comes to this crap)
Souls (like Prime but the community are pretentious fags about it)
Drakengards + NIER (Nier is what we'd get if Gene Wolfe were Japanese and autistic)
Team Ico's stuff
Thief series (generic religious zealot goons quote their holy book and have religious iconography all over the place)
System Shock
>>7798463
>passion projects
Only the handful of indie developers who are Japanese NEETS actually seem passionate about what they do. Aside from them and maybe a few autistic europeans indie gaming is the territory of failed writers and artists who settled into a field with no standards.
Look at the independent games selling on Steam right now and tell me independent development doing good things for video games. It's all the same lazy, derivative shit that AAA does but on a smaller scale. For every Notch, Pixel or Dennaton you have 100 histrionic hacks running what in any other industry would be called scams over kickstarter.
>>7798466
The Last of Us felt like it was aspiring to be an Innaritu movie or Children of Men or something and just kind of paid lip-service to the fact that it's a video game by knocking off RE4 and Uncharted.
And David Cage has made a career out of making garbage movies where you occasionally have to push buttons.
>>7798475
there's nothing more private than being anon
>>7798483
>>passion projects
>Only the handful of indie developers who are Japanese NEETS actually seem passionate about what they do. Aside from them and maybe a few autistic europeans indie gaming is the territory of failed writers and artists who settled into a field with no standards.
>Look at the independent games selling on Steam right now and tell me independent development doing good things for video games. It's all the same lazy, derivative shit that AAA does but on a smaller scale. For every Notch, Pixel or Dennaton you have 100 histrionic hacks running what in any other industry would be called scams over kickstarter.
But really the same goes for film and literature, as well as most corners of the artistic world. There are always hacks who want to ride the gravy train.
>>7798487
When it comes to having an identity, yes. When it comes to the amount of eyes staring at me, no. I realize nothing is private. Anything could be posted anywhere. I don't mind looking like an idiot to one person. But, I'd feel shitty the more people looking my way.
>>7798491
>Aside from them and maybe a few autistic europeans indie gaming is the territory of failed writers and artists who settled into a field with no standards.
Fairly certain this is how radio and cinema started
>>7798492
*beats you up for being a nerd*
>>7798483
I'm not suggesting indie developers are necessarily working on passion projects I'm suggesting that the proliferation of easy to use technology, our understanding of the form on a mechanical level, etc (which as I said is made obvious by the fact that so many indie games are being made now) enables passions projects.
Also I'd argue that film and literature suffer from this just as much as games currently do, for every star citizen you can point towards I can show you a 50 shades of grey. It's merely that in the world of gaming moving beyond this is only just barely becoming plausible, thanks too, like I said, the increasing ability for the average person to theoretically just go out there and make a game. We haven't reached the zenith of this yet of course, it's still basically impossible for me or you to just make a whole game ourselves, but it's entering the realm of reality slowly.
I do believe that Video Games hold the potential to be art, they just haven't gotten there yet.
>>7798491
I think it's probably easier in video games than anything else. Sure with literature you have no talent hipsters jerking each other off in New York and at least a few big names in Hollywood who probably have no business being there that doesn't involve Harvey Weinstein's cock but I feel like video games are in a particularly bad spot.
The growing accessibility of video game development as well as the booming state of indie shit has made for perfect conditions for garbage, and it's only going to get worse. Literature and film are established industries, video games are relatively new and anybody can jump in, fist a keyboard for a few hours and then start a Patreon.
>>7798496
I don't see right now leading to anything good. I'm absolutely sure they'll get bigger, but I don't think the future is going to be anything I'll want to participate in.
>>7798089
I honestly think that the golden age of videogaming has already gone; it was around the late '90, when technical limitations were not so harsh as in the prehistory but still present enough that the gap had to be filled in with actual creative input. Now we are completely and inescapably in the age of "graphics are everything" and the only alternative are half-assed 8-bit indie games.
Vidya had a chance to be good, but now it's gone.
Okay anons, here's your answer to the vidya, art, etc debate.
The thing is that video games are very bad as a narrative medium, but have great potential as purely an aesthetic for of art. Obviously all art is "aesthetic", but you get the idea.
So when thinking about games and art, think less "literature and cinema" and more "painting and music" and it will make a lot more sense.
here, I solved it
>>7798505
I'd say video games are more vulnerable to be abused by hacks, as the reception they'd receive upon release would be a lot less harsher than what experienced critics from older mediums would dish out, most likely gamers as a general whole are more susceptible to welcome anything they believe will contribute towards their medium being an artform, to the point where they will accept gutter trash.
But the actual act of making a video game, and a good one at that, I'd say that's probably harder than any piece of literature, film or painting. The variables involved that contribute towards a successful game are just too risky.
>>7798512
>solved it
thanks, but why are they bad as a narrative medium, but potentially great as purely an aesthetic for of art?
>>7798122
So I suppose it's exactly like literature and films except you can chose the pace and whether he slips a finger up your bum.
>>7798512
I think this explanation of games as an artform is the best if you want to include the pioneering games of its inception the 'Gaming Canon'. Tetris, Super Mario Brothers, Space Invaders, Pacman, these are almost flawless creations.
>>7798515
I don't know about good video games being hard to make. I'd say it's possible to make a good video game entirely on execution without creativity as long as you're competent. That's pretty great. Think of how many good games just did something played straight and proper and were loved for it.
fighting games are fucking cool if you're an obsessive competitive asshole like me who's willing to pour more hours into it to "be the best" than writing
>>7798483
>For every Notch, Pixel or Dennaton you have 100 histrionic hacks
Notch is the supreme hack though. He's just some amateur programmer who somehow struck gold with his meandering quarter-finished infiniminer clone, he's the archetypal manchild loser.
>>7798530
I don't think most of the games now hailed as classics were made through accidental execution. A lot of time, effort, revision and even complete reconstructions were made to create these games.
>>7798509
This t b h
Just compare the original Fallout and Fallout 2 with the abomination that is Fallout 4.
Or compare games like Grim Fandango, Monkey Island, Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Planescape: Torment, Day of the Tentacle, and Full Throttle with the generic brown-grey military shooters that dominate the market today.
Or compare JRPGs of the SNES era - Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Phantasy Star, Lufia, etc - with the vomit-inducing trash that Japan churns out today.
>>7798458
Dark Souls, Bloodborn (Souls series). Also notoriously accused of having no story because there's barely and cut scenes and minimal optional dialogue.
>>7798539
>Or compare JRPGs of the SNES era - Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Phantasy Star, Lufia, etc - with the vomit-inducing trash that Japan churns out today.
kek
>>7798533
Notch had a great idea, then followed through and put work in, executed it right and then it caught on and made him a billionaire. Your post makes me think that if I were to throw you into a lake I could create a new Dead Sea.
>He's just some amateur programmer
Why's it matter how he started? He made something people liked.
Sure Minecraft was unfinished, but what was there (which he %100 made) was so beloved that it was all he needed.
>infiniminer clone
Everything's made of what came before, and Notch took a basic concept and took it in a completely new direction. What made Autismcraft catch on, blocks? Sure it was the blocks but without everything else it'd just be lego. He had original ideas, he didn't rip anyone off.
>>7798536
Resident Evil 4 was Devil May Cry at one point. Street Fighter 2 played well because of a bug that became the first combo system. Wolfenstein was a stealth game until they said fuck it and just had the player shoot everyone as an experiment. I know accident isn't the best way to put it, but with video games you can just try crazy new shit and there's generally a reasonable chance you'll have something awesome.
>>7798539
Fallout 2 is fucking stupid and feels like it was written by smartass 14 year olds. Planescape Torment is pretentious and has ass combat, which is 50% of the game. Final Fantasy VI had broken as fuck combat that signalled the slow downfall of the gameplay in that series.
Why would I compare adventure games to shooters? Today's shooters are fucking awful compared to DOOM, that would be a much better comparison.
And as for JRPG's, fair enough. The last ones I liked are 8 years old now that I think about it. They're never making a second Last Remnant game are they?
>>7798530
You can write War and Peace by yourself, good luck trying to program, write, make visual assets, make music, design and develop for anything that comes close to even a mid-sized game like stalker or whatever.
>>7798566
>bigger=gooder
A couple of guys did pretty much all of Hotline Miami. Mount & Blade started out as two turkroaches' basement project. MINECRAFT. Cave Story. LISA.
You can do a good amount on your own if you know your stuff. Try making a movie alone, see how well that competes with AAA.
>>7798549
Notch has no passion (as shown by his many vacations and leaving the game unfinished and also by becoming a billionaire and still moping around on twitter all day) and no talent (as shown by never making a successful game again). He was simply in the right place at the right time, with a titillating enough concept to hook /v/ with the promises of future updates, which kickstarted MC's popularity.
Minecraft isn't even good.
this board is literally /v/ now. disgusting.
>>7798590
>literally
Please.
>>7798590
/lit/erally.
>>7798591
sorry for the triggering. please substitute that nasty word with one of these.
synonyms: exactly, precisely, actually, really, truly
>>7798491
I think you're being unnecessarily pessimistic. To me it doesn't matter how many shitty games make money on patreon and kickstarter, what matters is the great amount of good, interesting, thoughtful, visually interesting, just plain different indie games released nowadays. I'm glad we have stuff like Undertale, Life is Strange, Ori and the Blind Forest, Hotline Miami, Superhot, SOMA, Firewatch, Cuphead. I'm not saying all of these games are finest pieces of art and flawless but when it comes to conveying emotion through worldbuilding, aesthetics and gameplay we are having a bit of a golden age again and I think it is due to PC gaming and these ways to get financial support for your ideas and being able to make them happen without a studio and 20 man team.
>>7798617
No I absolutely agree with what you said. I just meant in all creative mediums, no matter what fantastic stuff is being produced, there will always be hacks waiting to take advantage.
>>7798590
no, the /v/ kiddies that lurk around the site always come out when videogames are discussed.
>>7798629
Hah sorry, I misquoted there. You obviously agree.
>>7798475
>I was immediately called an ideas guy and laughed out of the thread.
You should have taken this to heart
>>7798470
so what? renaissance art is meant for people who can afford it, to show off; certainly not for selling to an audiance
>>7798544
These games take advantage of the medium as a story-telling medium in the best way I think. No matter if you like the story or not, I think all can agree that if there's a way to do it, this is the way
