All I want out of life is to become a scholar, form a research team of like minded individuals and create an expansive compilation of mythology from all of classical antiquity from an all encompassing view point that considers the religious, spiritual, philosophical and psychoanalytic meaning of each individual myth, and their meaning as an interwoven section of the greater tapestry of it all. We would hold true to the ideals of classical antiquity, but we would not be beholden to nostalgia of the past, building upwards from the work of past scholars to create new conceptions with renewed vitality rather than attempting to maintain the decaying structures of an academic institution that we have moved beyond. Naturally, we would begin with the Greeks
There isn't a day that goes by that I don't dream of this. I've been reading Hesiod's Cosmos by Jenny Strauss Clay and it's been inspiring me deeply. I wish I knew how to orchestrate such creative works, as I'm desperate to actualize my passion
When I was exploring my soul and spiritual awakening, I had this fantasy that my ancestors had been high priests of the ancient Mystery religions of Classical Antiquity, preserving their sacred knowledge in their psyches and passing through their blood across the ages, culminating with me now in this place. I feel as though it's my destiny to resurrect the ancient Mystery Traditions of my ancestors and unlock the sacred knowledge that I have access to in the collective unconscious.
>>7786853
Go to uni for classics or history, or something. That would probably be a good place to start.
>>7786918
Is modern academia the proper environment for such an undertaking? I dropped out of college shortly after I started amd haven't looked much into it since
>>7786930
Academia is the only place for such an undertaking. Like, if you want this book to be good at all, you and everyone involved will need to do years of research, translate primary texts, etc. You don't have the time or the resources to do that sort of thing if you're not in academia.
What made you drop out, out of curiosity? What were you studying?
The mythological figure that I feel drawn to beyond all others is Queen Persephone of the ancient Mysteries of Eleusis. I believe that the true meaning of her myth has been corrupted and taken from the world by the patriarchal hegemony of Rome and later the Catholic Church in an attempted to repress the empowerment of the Anima within the human psyche.
The myth as we know it in modern culture is known as the Rape of Persephone, but the word that carried the connotation of "rape" in the mind of Roman scholars was "harpazo", which I will suggest in the context of "the Harpazo of Persephone" actually carried the opposite meaning, which is the experience of achieving orgasm, being transformed by it's transcendental elation. I will suggest that the myth of Persephone, rather than being about rape, is a myth of sexual awakening and empowerment, the quintessential coming of age tale for young women, in which we see the young maiden Kore as their archetype grow to become the radiant and powerful Queen of the Underworld. Persephone is meant to be seen as a savior and liberator, not as a victim.
>>7786952
I was studying computer science, and I dropped for a great deal of reasons, but mostly because I realized I was only there half heartedly because it seemed like this was the path I was expected to follow. I quickly realized that I actually detested computer science and wanted nothing to do with it. I just stopped going one day and never looked back. It felt like such a massive weight had been lifted from me
>>7786853
What books would you recommend in those subjects OP? I came here looking for exactly the type of work you described.
You could just do it over the Internet and let anyone interested contribute.
Sounds like you should start a wiki OP. Or hell, just contribute all your analyses to Wikipedia.
Just out of curiosity, are there any schools that sre particularly known for such study or something similar?
>>7786853
Have you tried to read works of Kerényi? He does exactly that thing you describe
>>7786994
>I will suggest in the context of "the Harpazo of Persephone" actually carried the opposite meaning, which is the experience of achieving orgasm, being transformed by it's transcendental elation. I will suggest that the myth of Persephone, rather than being about rape, is a myth of sexual awakening and empowerment, the quintessential coming of age tale for young women
This idea is not new and it's not yours, read 'The Road to Eleusis', it's all in there and even more. Also check the connection of Persephone to the multiple versions of Little Red Riding Hood and the modern interpretations of that fairy tale.you also sound quite pretentious
>>7788164
I know the concept has been explored before, but I believe I could expand upon what has already been laid out and contribute to the field of study. I want to build upon what already exists, not create something that is entirely new.
>>7789428
>but I believe I could expand upon what has already been laid out
okay, hit me
>>7789505
Persephone is the archetype for the psychosexual development of the Anima within the collective unconscious. I would suggest that the Mystery religion of Eleusis was centered around a cult that performed ceremonial sex rituals through which the women who observed them learned how to achieve spiritual transcendence by reaching a heightened orgasm. I would obviously go into greater detail in the actual compilation in regards to Persephone integrating the disparate aspects of the chronic deities of the Underworld within herself, such as her assimilation of the sexuality of the nymph Minthe
>>7789539
That should be chthonic, not chronic
>>7787055
Academic world sucks. Full of pretentious self interested people.
>>7789617
how is that different from the world in general?
there's nothing inherently wrong with academia, and criticism of academia needs to be taken with a heavy grain of salt because it's often brought forth by people who just didn't have the intelligence and drive to succeed in it. it's much easier to hide behind "academia is inherently broken" (moreso than anything else) than to admit you're just not that smart.
>>7789539
hardly groundbreaking, and borders on the painfully obvious. you're gonna have to do better than that lol.
>>7789634
OP,
this faggot is showing his jelly, but he's not wrong. you need to plumb the depths a little more.
>>7789634
It's detailing the transformation of the Maiden Kore into Queen Persephone through each step in her journey and their individual symbolic significance that matters.
It's very similar to the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, with the Labyrinth being a symbolic expression of the human psyche, with the Minotaur being mans lower, beastial nature and Theseus being mans higher ascended nature delving into the unconscious to overcome this lower nature. In the same way but in a much larger symbolic scale, the Underworld that Persephone finds herself journeying through is a symbolic expression of the collective unconscious of humanity, with Persephone acting as humanities savior and redeemer against the unconscious terrors that dwell within us all. She faces and overcomes these horrors, and by knowing them becomes their master and integrates them into the wider ordered Cosmos of the Olympians as her servants and children. She takes a savage, chaotic Underworld overrun with primordial beasts and transforms it into a civilized Kingdom as a reflection of her own inner transformation in sacrificing her youthful innocence to rise to the responsibilities of the Queen of the Dead. Through her passion for her husband, we see Hades integrate love within himself and his psyche, becoming a fully actualized figure where before he was a lost spirit like those he Lords over in his realm. Hades and Persephone are archetypes for the Anima and Animus and the spiritual journey we all go through to find completeness in one another and form a spiritual household for ourselves.
>>7789627
Have you had any experience in academia personally? I'm very curious about it at this point.
>>7789694
i think your claim of "an all encompassing view point that considers the religious, spiritual, philosophical and psychoanalytic meaning of each individual myth, and their meaning as an interwoven section of the greater tapestry of it all." is a bit too grandiose, since so far this just appears to be examining greek/classical myth from a psychoanalytic perspective, particularly jung and freud.
again, it's -fine-, but it's not particularly ground breaking or hugely insightful. you might fill in a few blanks here or there and catch some details, but from a high level perspective this has been done many many times before. not sure how this is differentiated from the work done in the "decaying structures of an academic institution", or how it's "creating new conceptions with renewed vitality"
>>7789664
senpai how am i jelly if i'm not wrong baka desu
>>7789719
why? just cause i'm not engaged in ACADEMIA IS ALL SHIT rhetoric on a sri lankan finger puppetry forum? yes i've experienced academia, and it's no better or no worse than anything else really. there are assholes and pretentious retards in literally every part of society, just like there are nice and intelligent people. academia gets stigmatized and scrutinized extra hard though because of a general skepticism/suspicion towards esoteric pursuits and anti-intellectualism.
>>7789726
I appreciate this perspective, honestly. I'm finding it genuinely constructive. My hope would be for this work that each part would build upon the last and once complete, each disparate part would be understood as interwoven into a grander tapestry that includes all of the facets that I mentioned.
>>7789627
>admit you're just not that smart.
someone doesn't know how educational systems work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqMAlgAnlo
>>7789750
>conflating general education with high academia where you're writing papers that <10 people will read
grats you just outed yourself as "not that smart"
>>7789736
I wasn't trying to deride you or anything, I was sincerely curious if you had some in depth experience that you could share with me in academia. I apologize if I came off as abrasive. I just don't have any real insight into that world from an inclusive perspective
>>7789754
pretty sure chomsky's referencing both systems (public and higher ed.) in the video, bro. maybe you should watch it first before formulating your opinions.
>>7789726
>hardly
>painfully
the jelly i can almost taste, senpai. be nicer and who could accuse you of being the jelly? not i tomodachi, not i.
>>7789758
sorry, there are plenty of people here who enjoy shittng on academia for really bizarre reasons, and i took
>I'm very curious about it at this point
as
>lol i can't believe you still believe this if you actually experienced academia
again, if i haven't made it clear, i don't find academia to be some sacrosanct institution that's beyond reproach or improvement, but criticism like >>7789617 can be levied against pretty much anything.
>>7789771
Is it a world that still has fertile soil for something like this project I've been talking about? I'd absolutely be looking from a spiritual perspective, if that illuminates why I feel I might not work well in that world
>>7789764
he specifically said by the time you get to graduate school the issues regarding an imposed system of thinking/suppression of new ideas fades. and we're discussing high academia not just "grad school," where you're literally paid to write out in depth research on stuff that 99.999% of the population don't care about. when you get to that level of granularity with very little/no profit to be made beyond some vague notion of prestige, things become much more merit based. many many people who criticize higher academia with trite and nebulous grievances simply are "not that smart" and have a sour grapes mentality
so maybe it is you who needs to watch the whole video, or just have a better grasp of chomsky's ideas (which, by the way, aren't wholly incontrovertible in any case).
>>7789779
yes but your lack of formal schooling/background would be a serious hurdle you'd need to overcome.
the vast majority of doctoral level work done in the humanities is just what i described as "fill in a few blanks here or there and catch some details" in any case. not everyone is there to create some revolutionary new paradigm, and that shouldn't necessarily be your goal from the very start since you'll most likely set yourself up for failure.
i'm not too sure how spiritualism angle fits in to all of this. from what i've seen academia is fairly "secular" in this regard
>>7789770
harsh but i don't think i was being particularly hyperbolic or anything. it's 4chan fampai everyone posts like a dick sometimes.
>>7789781
> by the time you get to graduate school the issues regarding an imposed system of thinking/suppression of new ideas fades
Only in regards to the hard sciences since the hard sciences would die out without actual critical and analytical thinkers.
Still, you said here (>>7789627) that
>there's nothing inherently wrong with academia
That's clearly not the case. There is a fundamental problem with the education system without even mentioning other issues like the cost of tuition, etc. Claiming people are not that smart because they are unwilling to indoctrinate themselves to the system makes you look and sound like an ass.
>>7789784
What steps should I begin to take to overcome these hurdles? I've already begun the process of learning Attic Greek, but I'm still an amateur.
>>7789796
Do you think it's feasible that people could educate themselves to the same degree of understanding of their chosen field of knowledge independent of any academic system whatsoever?
>>7789844
following a deweyian method that uses social-constructivist theories as it's basis? yes.
>>7789850
note:
this is under the assumption that there would be an equal allocation of resources to each institute. obviously, you can't study certain things without the necessary resources.
for ex., you would need a microscope to study cellular biology, etc.
>>7789844
theoretically, yes, but for practical intents and purposes i'd argue no. the key benefit of an established academic system is that in discoursing with peers/mentors, you can save a lot of time in identifying the more pertinent information without having to know everything and evaluating from there.
>>7789796
perhaps inherent is the wrong word then, but there's nothing specifically wrong with academia that doesn't also extend to many/all other fields.
also the reason no one takes your kind of rhetoric seriously is because you seem convinced there's some "indoctrination" and brainwashing going on. trust me, higher academia is not concerned with this kind of stuff lol.
you sound painfully deluded to be honest.
>>7789844
Schooling institutes aren't necessary to actually Educate people. There is a fundamental difference between schooling and education. Most people foolishly support the schooling system because they believe that actual education is going on in said establishments, when, in fact, it's simply a system of indoctrination.
>>7789850
Tell me more about this method. Why haven't you put it into action?
>>7789924
>higher academia is not concerned with this kind of stuff lol.
yes. but in order to get to that setting, one must go through the indoctrinating process of schooling. usually, during this process, people become indoctrinated. thus, by the time they get to higher academia, they are so indoctrinated by ideology that they are not even aware of it (they have already conformed and assimilated to the status-quo). after all, ideology is represented subconsciously as a form of false consciousness.
i don't expect to convince you otherwise (especially not on a site like this), but it is something you should consider or perhaps research more into.
also, stop with the nasty ad hominem remarks. it really makes you sound like a cunt.
>>7789939
Some schools do follow the Deweyan method and exist. There are many educators in the field using Vygotsky's social-constructivist methods. Of course, these schools are not mainstream (and never will be so long as schooling institutes are under state control). The reason for this is best explained by Samuel Bowles in his book Schooling in Capitalist America. If you want more information regarding the issue, please read it.
http://www.amazon.com/Schooling-Capitalist-America-Educational-Contradictions/dp/1608461319/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1457480187&sr=8-6&keywords=samuel+bowles
>>7789627
I saw enough of it to see how futile it is. Just because I am not willing to prostitute my intellect for the prestige and economical prosperity of a university does not mean that I could not have if I wanted to.
It is not different from the real world, you are correct, and that's what's wrong with it. It should be better, but it is not. I have met many university professors, and very few of them were interesting intelectuals. Professors who write overly specific articles for other professors to secure their position. There you have it, 99% of the academic world is professors being paid big money to jerk themselves.
>>7789944
Do you think it's possible to fast track through the system and resist all forms of indoctrination that you would encounter?
>>7789973
Do you think there is a place in the world today for genuine intellectual undertakings, or do you think that world is slipping away?
>>7789974
it's difficult but not impossible. however, if you tell someone they are stupid enough times, they will start to internalize it as being true. if you have a teacher who doesn't like certain ideas, you learn to stop including them in your papers and discussing them in class all these experiences (which are myriad in number) shape your disposition. resisting all forms of ideology and indoctrination is impossible. we are all influenced by our cultural and social settings. we are nurtured by them.
schooling systems are assimilatory and anti-democratic by nature since they seek to shape the individual to his or her own society.
actual education is just the opposite. instead of shaping people to the society, education gets the individual to shape the society (which is democratic). this is john dewey sought to have education do through pragmatic methods. he believed children should shape their learning environments just as citizens are supposed to be the ones shaping their societies. see the difference between the two systems?
>>7790003
Yes, but it's a lofty ideal and unfortunately the vast majority of people do not have the vision or the vitality within themselves to utilize such a system. Most people want to be guided and shaped by others, as it always has been. It's only a small group of individuals in any society who have the proper nature to shape their surroundings in such a way.
>>7787990
I don't know how I missed this post, but no I never have heard of that man, but I'm very interested so far from what I've read. His book on the Eleusinian Mysteries is almost exactly the same kind of work I'd like to create.
>>7789844
Yes, but I think that few are willing or able.
On the other hand, the resources of a world-class university can speed things up, even if you disagree with the prevailing culture.
>>7790108
How accepting are universities of people who are openly against the grain of the prevailing culture in their intellectual work?
>>7786853
Several things.
1. Joseph Campbell, CG Jung, and Aleister Crowley probably have covered most of this area to death, so good luck breaking new ground.
2. Basically you want to be part of the original Golden Dawn. Which already happened.
3. In practice it'll be nothing but a bunch of Causobans circlejerking and one upping each other. Lamest parties ever.
4. Art is better. Read "Fossil Angels" by Alan Moore http://glycon.livejournal.com/13888.html
>>7789981
There is a place for intellectual undertakings, but academia is not it, for the most part at least. We are in the era of technicians and specialists. That is where the money is today, and so this is where people go.
>>7790137
Honestly, the delusional fantasy that I've developed for my life is to consecrate myself as a High Priest and resurrect the ancient Mystery Religion of Eleusis and form an order of like minded individuals to keep the Traditions and perform it's rituals, while individually contributing to the wider work. This order would be comprised of pairs of married men and women who are themselves each a High Priest and Priestess who are complete in their spiritual unity. Who here hasn't dreamed of forming an occult secret society though?
That's an interesting proposition though, expressing this work in a fully artistic context rather than a scholarly one. I have always felt that sequential art as an artistic medium has never been utilized to it's fullest potential, and thinking about it, something like what I'm conceiving of could potentially be conveyed in that form
>>7790172
as above so below. mercurial caduceus. ouroboros. merging of sun (male) and moon (female) dichotomies into one unified being. the fool of the tarot (the zero). the purging fire of the lion (or phoenix). the purified whiteness (the albedo) of he unicorn. anymore alchemical images to decode?
>>7790188
Yes, they're by Johfra Bosschart who primarily paints with esoteric occult symbolism. I love art like this personally.
http://www.myastrologybook.com/Johfra-Bosschart.htm
>>7790119
fwiw I went to Columbia in the USA and found most people to be tolerant of and open to valid criticism.
I think the larger issue with schooling is the environment most students are brought up in. It's very hard to raise a free thinking and open minded individual in the west unless you're lucky enough to grow up around people from various cultures with worldviews that differ substantially from your own, or have the money for private school where they provide that experience for you.
>>7790202
Persephone was the archetype of my Anima in the spiritual development of my psyche that I undertook in my transition from adolescents into adulthood. Hades was the archetype for my Animus. Most seem to find their archetypes in Lucifer and Sophia, but I didn't feel the same inherent connection to Luciferianism as I did to the Mysteries of Eleusis. Lucifer is a petulant spoiled brat and Sophia frightens me. Hades as the disciplined Judge and Persephone as the savior of lost souls spoke to me in a more intimate way.
>>7790221
How much did you push the envelope in your intellectual pursuits when you were there? I also agree with you about the environments we're raised in not being conducive for expanding ones perceptions of the world. I had to really push myself to meet challenging people when I was in that part of my life.
>>7790170
It sounds like it's time for people to start forming orders of secret occult societies again.
>>7790259
I like to think that I was able to challenge myself pretty thoroughly.
I came out of high school having read Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom, which framed my thoughts on education at the time.
Which should I buy first, The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries or Eleusis: Archetypal Image of Mother and Daughter?
I'm going to get both, but I only have enough money for one right now
>>7790415
What was it that you worked on?
>>7790460
I studied political science (international relations & comparative politics) and did some research abroad in a country in which I have some family. Having access to the only political scientist in the west with personal relationships with politicians in the country I visited was pretty cool.
desu though, the career academic thing wasn't a good fit for me and I got a lot more out of taking seminars in western and non-western classics in addition to doing most of the music theory minor.
My experience might not be typical since I didn't need to focus on being employable after graduation (I studied basic economics, accounting, and entrepreneurship in high school and I worked typical desk job internships in the summers).
>>7790553
*desu not desu
>>7790560
desu
>>7790553
What's your thinking like in regards to political theory in a philosophical sense?
>>7790634
Sorry, not sure what you're getting at with your question
>>7790713
What do you believe in in terms of political philosophy? I made the assumption that a passion for political philosophy was what drove you to this field of study
I share your dream, OP.
I think it's likely that psychedelics were involved in mystery religions. Just read the neoplatonists and tell me they're not describing ego death. Also check out the greek magical papyri.
>>7789539
I am going to be brutally honest with you.
1.) You do not know what you are talking about. The first sentence is simply jingoistic nonsense, and the rest is simply unfounded by the facts of the mystery.
2.) Intellectual deficiencies aside, the public will freak, and you will get fired and blacklisted for speculating that an abduction and a rape was actually something positive.
>>7789694
Your work needs more work and you need a formal academic education.
>It's very similar to the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, with the Labyrinth being a symbolic expression of the human psyche
Except they already have a symbolic expression of the "human" psyche, the greek myths call her Psyche. Furthermore, your equivalency between the Labyrinth and the underworld is ignores the importance of location , which is symbolic on multiple fronts. Also, you're using "nature" to hide a reduction, which you have used to support another unfounded equivalency.
>. She takes a savage, chaotic Underworld overrun with primordial beasts and transforms it into a civilized Kingdom as a reflection of her own inner transformation in sacrificing her youthful innocence to rise to the responsibilities of the Queen of the Dead. Through her passion for her husband, we see Hades integrate love within himself and his psyche, becoming a fully actualized figure where before he was a lost spirit like those he Lords over in his realm. Hades and Persephone are archetypes for the Anima and Animus and the spiritual journey we all go through to find completeness in one another and form a spiritual household for ourselves.
None of this happens, your symbolic understanding is opaque and misplaced,most likely because you have stolen someone else's language, and do not talk about passion and the underworld in the same breath.
>>7790726
Ah ok, I think I see what you mean.
I tend to prefer structural realist explanations in analyzing foreign policy, but I think there's merit to all the schools of thought. To me, it often seems like other explanations can be boiled down to, or explained more simply through a structural realist lens. But at the end of the day, I'm open to whatever shoe fits best.
In a more general sense (along the lines of Aristotle, Locke, Xunzi, etc etc), I wouldn't say that I have any strong beliefs towards the natural state of man or how to best organize an arbitrary group of people. I read this type of work to look at how different historical circumstances lead to different views on how the world works and how people behave.
It's fun to try to apply insights from this towards questioning my views on myself and society. For me, the endgame is to live a fulfilling life that 'makes sense' based on my particular circumstances.
>>7790917
The Mystery religion of ancient Crete that maintained the Labyrinth of the Minotaur was actually of the very same Underworld cult that maintained the Mystery religion of Eleusis. The Priestess that officiated the rituals of this religion was given the title Despoina, meaning Mistress. She would be a masked figure who's name was kept secret to the initiates of the Mysteries. Ariadne was the Mistress of the Labyrinth in the myth of Theseus. Persephone herself as Queen of the Underworld is the archetype which these priestesses would dedicating their lives to embodying. She was one of the primary Gods worshiped in the religious world of ancient Greece, understood as a radiant and powerful figure.
>>7790893
It's this very connotation of rape that to this day still defines the myth of Persephone that makes me want to do this sort of thing. She was an empowering figure of great importance that was subverted into becoming perceived as something diametrically the opposite in meaning.
>>7790971
You think you are helping yourself, but you are not. Potnia means mistress/wife/lady. Despoina means mistress of the house/people/site. Kore/persephone is the young maiden. They are sisters, daughters of Zeus and Poseidon.
>She would be a masked figure who's name was kept secret to the initiates of the Mysteries. Ariadne was the Mistress of the Labyrinth in the myth of Theseus
She is not masked she is veiled, as are all the Greek goddesses, and many of the nymphs. Do you know why that is? The mistress of the labyrinth is unnamed for a reason. It is not Ariadne, nor is anyone else mentioned previously.
>Persephone herself as Queen of the Underworld is the archetype which these priestesses would dedicating their lives to embodying.
Nope.
>It's this very connotation of rape that to this day still defines the myth of Persephone that makes me want to do this sort of thing. She was an empowering figure of great importance that was subverted into becoming perceived as something diametrically the opposite in meaning.
She was abducted and raped, the myth is clear, what makes it rape is that Zeus condoned Hades stealing her away and marrying her without her or Demeter's permission, because it is the natural order of the world. Aides/Pluto has no passion, eros does not exist in the underworld. There is no actual sex between them. I do not know if you have noticed, Hades has no children, he can't, the underworld produces no life. The only gods in the underworld are all ancient and primordial.
>>7791044
You're only conceptualizing Hades and the Underworld in the form that it was in before Persephone was consecrated as their Queen, the dread filled perception of Demeter imagining the fate of her daughter as she wandered the earth and withered. The second part, from the perspective of Persephone shows her transformative journey in which she sacrifices her youthful maidenhood and with it an aspect of her sensuality as a woman to take up the responsibilities of the Underworld. The unification between Persephone and Hades sealed with the communion of pomegranate seeds was indeed an act of integrating love and fertility into the realm of Hades. The pomegranate as a symbol carries the connotation of sexual fruition, and is symbolic of Persephones complete sexual transformation as a woman, her marriage covenant with Hades. Hades and Persephone also did indeed have a daughter named Makaria, the Goddess over the blessed dead of the Underworld. You have to understand that Hades and Persphone transform the Underworld from the realm of chthonic Gods and ancient monsters to a integrated Kingdom in the Olympian order.
Suidas s.v. Makariai (trans. Suda On Line) (Byzantine Greek Lexicon C10th A.D.) :
"Makaria (Blessed). Death. A daughter of Haides. And a proverb : `Go to blessedness', instead of go to misery and utter destruction. Or `Go to blessedness' is said by euphemism. Since even the dead are called 'blessed ones."
>>7791075
Here's a second century Orphic Hymn to Persephone that supports my assertion that Queen Persephone fulfilled a duality in her conception as a Goddess as both the Mistress of the Underworld and as the life giving of the Spring who brought fertility and love into the realm of Hades.
A Hymn.
Daughter of Jove [Zeus], almighty and divine, come, blessed queen, and to these rites incline:
Only-begotten, Pluto's [Plouton's] honor'd wife, O venerable Goddess, source of life:
'Tis thine in earth's profundities to dwell, fast by the wide and dismal gates of hell:
Jove's [Zeus'] holy offspring, of a beauteous mien, fatal [Praxidike], with lovely locks, infernal queen:
Source of the furies [Eumenides], whose blest frame proceeds from Jove's [Zeus'] ineffable and secret seeds:
Mother of Bacchus [Eubouleos], Sonorous, divine, and many-form'd, the parent of the vine:
The dancing Hours [Horai] attend thee, essence bright, all-ruling virgin, bearing heav'nly light:
Illustrious, horned, of a bounteous mind, alone desir'd by those of mortal kind.
O, vernal queen, whom grassy plains delight, sweet to the smell, and pleasing to the sight:
Whose holy form in budding fruits we view, Earth's vig'rous offspring of a various hue:
Espous'd in Autumn: life and death alone to wretched mortals from thy power is known:
For thine the task according to thy will, life to produce, and all that lives to kill.
Hear, blessed Goddess, send a rich increase of various fruits from earth, with lovely Peace;
Send Health with gentle hand, and crown my life with blest abundance, free from noisy strife;
Last in extreme old age the prey of Death, dismiss we willing to the realms beneath,
To thy fair palace, and the blissful plains where happy spirits dwell, and Pluto [Plouton] reigns.
>>7791084
>>7791075
The key aspect in understanding the true nature of the union of Hades and Persephone is in seeing the symbolic meaning in the pomegranate that was the symbol of their covenant. The pomegranate has been employed as a symbolic expression of one who gives life and plenty and of the influence of the feminine in nature. For example, it is used in this painting of Mary Tudor.
>>7791075
>You're only conceptualizing Hades and the Underworld in the form that it was in before Persephone was consecrated as their Queen, the dread filled perception of Demeter imagining the fate of her daughter as she wandered the earth and withered.
Talking about the underworld and form, as if it has changed since Hades showed up is not accurate. Demeter has no idea what happened to Persephone precisely because Persephone was outside of her domain, earth. She knows somebody has her, which is why she threatens everyone by stopping growth.
> responsibilities of the Underworld
...you really do not know what you are talking about. Do you know what Hades singular job is? Host. And, the stern pitiless, selfish, and cruel Hades does as absolutely little as possible, he hosts only because it is his domain. Dread Persephone on the other hand torments all non-initiates.
>The unification between Persephone and Hades sealed with the communion of pomegranate seeds was indeed an act of integrating love and fertility into the realm of Hades.
There is no love and fertility in the Underworld, period. It contains the seeds of all things, it does not change, it has no form. Amor(e)s, love, literally stems from Mors, which is death. It is eros' negative balance, Thanatos. Pomegranate seeds look and stain the fingers with what looks like blood,which is the only thing the guests of the Underworld want, life force. Consuming in the Underworld is to posses, by giving her seeds,due to her nature, he has tied her into a cycle of death and rebirth.
> Hades and Persephone also did indeed have a daughter named Makaria, the Goddess over the blessed dead of the Underworld.
Suidas is not a legitimate source for this information. Why not try Euripides, or even a text that was written while the Greek pantheon was still prominent, and not a text that only compiles the information to make sense of long since obscure texts. These texts would have her as the daughter of Zeus or Herakles. The details of why and how this becomes Hades are too complicated, but you should really look into why it so frequently occurs to better your understanding.
>You have to understand that Hades and Persphone transform the Underworld from the realm of chthonic Gods and ancient monsters to a integrated Kingdom in the Olympian order.
They do no such a thing. The Underworld is part of the Olympian order from the moment of Hades rule. You are demonstrating a severe lack of knowledge of Zeus Poseidon and Hades.
This will be my last response unless you suddenly learn what you are talking about. You have interpreted the symbols not as they mean within their own tradition,but to fit a narrative of your own design, and they do not bear the weight. If you want to make your narrative, by all means do so, just find another way. You believe you have understanding where you do not.
>>7791135
The Underworld is a deeply complex realm with symbolic meaning in regards to it's role in the wider order of the Cosmos layered throughout it's landscape and transformations. Hades and Persephone both integrate the natures, authorities and burdens of the previous order of chthonic Gods who themselves assimilate into the landscape in an abstract form. Persephone fulfills a spiritual duality in her role as Queen, bringing life and fertility into the Underworld and withering death when she is upon the earth. This included Hades and Persephone inheriting the role of adoptive parents to certain deities in the Underworld such as the Furies. Hades comes to fulfill a similar duality in his nature through his association with Persephone, in which he integrates love into his realm.
Orphic Hymn 18 to Pluton (trans. Taylor) (Greek hymns C3rd B.C. to 2nd A.D.) :
"[Haides] with Demeter’s girl [Persephone] captive, through grassy plains, drawn in a four-yoked car with loosened reins, rapt over the deep, impelled by love, you flew till Eleusinia’s city rose to view: there, in a wondrous cave obscure and deep, the sacred maid secure from search you keep, the cave of Atthis, whose wide gates display an entrance to the kingdoms void of day."
>>7791178
You're not saying much, but you think you are. It allows you to assert your lack of understanding and education as fact. I've now corrected the same mistakes you've made multiple times, and while it was a pleasant distraction from writing my thesis, a major portion of which is precisely this topic, your failure to evolve and grow has rendered this conversation boring.
>>7791228
It is part of the etymology of Persephone, , I thought I mentioned that but only gave you the meaning of Kore, she is thresher of wheat or bringer of death. I adamantly reject it because it is not correct.
My thesis is an exegesis of Greek theogeny in order to reproduce the basic components of and experiences behind the Mithraic, Eleusinian, Orphic and Dionysian mysteries. My argument is that these fundamental experiences and insights continue without the mystery cults,which I demonstrate through major sociopolitical events from the reformation onward. In showing that their content is so fundamental as to be consistently available to gifted men across history, I question the function of the rites, ultimately concluding that they are pedagogical, playing an important societal function, the absence of which played a large role in many of these events becoming disasters. " Fundamental Experiences of Greek Theogeny and Mystery Religions in The Politics of Modernity"
>>7791316
That would be fun as hell to write. How do you reconcile though, your interpretation of the symbolic meaning of the pomegranate being so completely opposed to every other use of the fruit in symbolic imagery? At the very least, the Orphic Mysteries seem to be aligned with my conception of Hades and Persephone.
>>7791335
>How do you reconcile though, your interpretation of the symbolic meaning of the pomegranate being so completely opposed to every other use of the fruit in symbolic imagery
It isn't, for the Greeks it was the fruit of the dead,looks like blood, is only seeds, which is appropriate for the underworld etc etc- Already said it. Interestingly enough, in a few version of the myth it is a blood-orange or a poppy.
Your use of the symbol is the Roman interpretation, which is irrelevant to a myth which predates it.
I was not being mean when I told you that you have a narrative and you are bending the symbols to it. Also, the number of uneducated and unintelligent "spiritual" writers who just spout nonsense( like you're doing) is incredibly high. You have to be able to independently find the symbols in use, to interpret the meaning of symbols for yourself, to find credible other interpreters, and then once the information is gathered, to actively search for the truth behind the symbolic whole.
>>7791372
I feel like we have very different conceptions of what the Mystery religion of Eleusis was and what exactly it meant to people. The i initiates of the Mysteries were promised salvation in death through Queen Persephone, who made the promise to find their lost souls wandering the Underworld, where she would initiate them into their place in the afterlife and feed them a pomegranate seed. The initiates would hold to her side like she was their mother as she took them out of the darkness. Persephone was understood as the chosen savior of humanity, the Goddess who aleviated the fear of death from people's lives
>>7791391
The initiates learned a lesson that saved them from her wrath and prepared them for judgement.
>feed them a pomegranate seed
Not only is this not a part of the mystery, but it goes against one major rule of the underworld. Do not accept or eat any food.
>Persephone was understood as the chosen savior of humanity
Not even remotely Greek. Save you from what? Only those who have not died, or wish to escape judgement fear death.
>>7786905
write a book about it you nerd
>>7791401
Persephone was described to the initiates as appearing to them as they are lost in the Underworld, standing on a large rock holding a torch in one hand and a vase of pomegranate seeds in the other, which she would feed to them to bind them to their new existence in the Underworld. She saved the souls of the dead from wandering alone in eternity through her initiations. She was like the shepherd of the souls of the Underworld
>>7791415
I keep telling you no, and you keep repeating yourself like that is going to make it true. The dead dont wander alone in the greek myth, and guiding people around is Hermes' job. In the actual myths and poems, dread persephone is often the cause of torment.
>>7791424
What are you building your conception of the Underworld off of
>>7790119
as long as it is valid criticism and not like the other anon who just spouts "indoctrination!!!" you will be accepted, although questioned, which really should be the goal for going into academia for you. you have a set of beliefs, they have a set, you clash and debate and become smarter.
>>7790245
Where did you read about these characters?
>>7790051
You should read his book ''Eleusis'' then. Not only it is one of the most interesting books about Eleusinian Mysteries but it will help you with your work and ideas. Also you could read ''Dionysos: Archetypal Image of Indestructible Life'' one of his best books
>>7791543
Which of the mythical ages of the Greek canon are you conceptualizing the abduction of Persephone as taking place in?
>>7791563
Does not work that way.
>>7791571
There's a very specific aspect of the myth that necessitates it being set within a particular age.
>>7787003
Had the exact same experience with uni, friend. I recommend you go back to college though. If you're serious about scholarship, academia is really the only viable setting. If you study something close to your interests (which you should manage because, unlike most folk, you know exactly what they are), I suspect you'l do grand.
>>7787003
This is exactly me right now, but I'm afraid if I quit my parents will be extremely upset and I don't know what I'd do to make ends meet with no degree
>>7794280
You're at a decisive moment in your development at a person, where you're being challenged to individualize yourself from your parents, at the cost of you sacrificing your dependence on them. You'll have to decide if living in the disillusionment of a lifestyle chosen to placate the perception your parents have for your fulfillment as an adult is worth letting your autonomy in how you love your life, even if it shatters the ideals people had for who you'd become slip away from you.
just study history, classic philology, philosophy or whatever and become a scholar
