This is this thread
No this is Patrick
>>7784686
Explain the 'what I got', it makes no sense
>>7784728
Not OP. Basically it's his own fault he falls to poverty and hungers is what I take from this.
>>7784709
>>>/reddit/
>>7784738
But you took it exclusively literally? the hunger?
>>7784745
Well it works both literally and figuratively, does it not?
>>7784758
I'd say he was sorta forced to experience the metaphysical one
>>7784743
What game is this?
>>7784743
I like Patrician III and similar, will I enjoy Buddenbrook?
>>7784743
Anyone have a The Magic Mountain by Mann exp/got picture?
Fresh from my graphic design studio
>>7784686
Stop stealing my wir!
>>7784797
only if you're a patrician yourself
>>7784734
fuggin Ajax
>>7784870
>Gibsmedat corn, Aedui
>>7785490
I especially liked how the Gauls just kept on fucking rebelling endlessly even after being systematically BTFO every.single.time.
They just never learned.
>>7785377
checked symmetric dubs
>>7785390
I read a different book by him, but that's basically what I got too. Huh.
>>7784807
can't be bothered to make a pic but i'll tell you
>What I Expected
The boredom of a teen stuck in a sanatorium surrounded by annoying sick fucks that drags along 1000+ pages
>What I Got
A love song for humanity, a moral epic unmatched since Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov and an illuminating, harrowing portrayal of man's struggle to belong and understand this world
I was pleasantly surprised and wet
>>7785390
also
>muh monastery
>muh fucking parents
>muh food
>>7784870
I'm absolutely laughing my ass off at the absurdity of this image. Anyone with even the faintest knowledge of history would know that the "corn" that Caesar speaks of in Commentaries On The Gallic War is not the corn that we in the west are familiar with, but is rather a poor translation for the word "grain" which in Latin is "Frumentum"
Myself and many others who have read the commentaries would know what you're trying to refer to with your image but it's wrong. Unless of course you were already aware of this and you are posting this ironically. In which case I commend you for your post but it's still blatantly wrong. I would have gone with a collage of images of wheat instead.
7/10
>Read
The Birds, The Frogs, & The Mosquitoes
>Expected
Meaning/unmeaning dichotomy in action, of course.
>Got
Nothing.
>>7785611
Seriously? Where was I supposed to find the wit of Shakespeare? Wolfe has decent prose but Joyce? It's literally just postmodern fantasy, good but not as special as you make it out to be.
>>7784686
fresh of the mill lads
>>7786056
4/10, not enough cringey fairy sex
>>7786294
Fun Fact: Kubrick didn't like the way Saturn looked the way the computer guys could make it look so he settled on Jupiter instead, explaining the change.
Also, it's funny that both were written at the same time.
>>7784811
The problem with Pascal's Wager is that you have no guarantee that God will reward belief, because you have no fucking idea what God (or gods) wants from you even if they do exist. The bible? All religions have a Bible, and they contradict each other. There's no one religious texts that stands out as being more divine/accurate than others. For all you know God still wants us to sacrifice people to him on a pyramid and that's the only way to get into heaven.
>>7785464
Holy fuck. Best in thread award right here.
>>7786332
Why is it funny?
>>7786349
>he doesn't sacrifice people on a pyramid
bro what are you doing with your life
>>7786355
Because you would expect them to be written far apart in time. I know the story, but I'm just saying that you know what nevermind.
>>7784816
yeah, one of my friends loves it since he thinks all this lack of description is a good way to let people conjure their own horrors
>>7786306
>treacherous hand
>this left hand of mine
>ol' good right hand
>I wish the boy was here
>hand, hand, hand
I really like this book and hand-themed inner dialogue.
>>7786434
He's right. It's a basic principle of horror not to show too much.
>>7786446
I have to admit I didn't like it. The metaphor seemed too contrived, not much happens and everything is so drawn out. And I'm not really a fan of his prose.
Best part was when he recalled the armwrestling contest, Hemmingway should've stuck to what he knew best.
>>7786449
>It's a basic principle of horror not to show too much.
only if you have descriptions to set up the mood, for all you know the reader is lazy or tired, which will make his imagination less imaginative.
>>7786473
you should never presume that as a writer though. Think of how mundane books would be if the author intentionally spoon fed you every detail.
Lovecraft wrote what interested him in a style suited to short fiction, despite his detail being loose at some times he still managed to push the story forward in a manner that you'd expect from fiction ultimately published in magazines.
I feel your frustration but with Lovecraft you take it how it is. Here's a cool artwork for you though.
>>7786229
I'm only 80% sure this is the pasta from an earlier thread.
>>7786349
Other religions don't matter, only the one Pascal was talking about, the true one, the one you're angry with because of your spoiled childhood, Christianity.
>>7786539
The real question is which religions one can combine the best so no one gets pissed off and you maximize your happy afterlife chances. Monotheistic religions don't go well with the rest I'm afraid.
It waspretty good
>>7786623
heh
>>7786615
so did you like it?
>>7784726
Kek'd
>>7784720
Anyone know a book that accomplishes the what I expected part of this? Because that's really what I'm looking for
Anyone ever read Steppenwolf? It seems like a good book, but in the end I don't want it to be a disappointment.
>>7786788
Why do you have a w and not anonymous?
>>7786615
Mine was all that and more.
>>7786792
I post a lot in /fa/ and started using it over there to keep track of my posts.
>>7786800
Huh I didnt know you could do that
>>7786460
>better than amazon sex.
True, but that whole section in not-japan was all terrible. The fairy thing came out of nowhere.
>>7786840
lost it
>>7786262
>It's literally just postmodern fantasy,
Wolfe is a modernist. Please don't associate him with PoMo trash. Also,he is as special as /lit/ makes him out to be
>>7786517
I mean, his work inspired an entire (if sometimes poorly executed) literary style, and "Lovecraftian" is still used as a descriptor in horror in a purely-descriptive-to-complimentary way. I think he was overall succesful, even if some of his stuff misses the mark.
>>7786615
Not enough whiny edgecore faggotry in the last section.
>>7786805
I actually didn't. I don't do that. That would be stupid.
>>7785931
The "will fuck for food" image really captures the essence of the book. and Sexus for that matter
>>7786846
fucking kek
>>7786349
If you read the Pensees, you'd understand that he spends a large portion of it showing why, if any religion's going to be correct, it's Christianity.
Reading those sections before reading the wager makes the wager all that more powerful.
>>7786950
He's not a modernist either, he's a fucking genre fiction writer.
I swear to god, letting you fucking genre plebs have a safe space is what drove /lit/ to it's current state of decay
>>7786025
Lies of Locke Lamora was an amazing book.
>>7787099
Lemme guess, you never read him did you?
>>7786534
I'm absolutely laughing my ass off at the absurdity of this post. Anyone with even the faintest knowledge of 4chan would know that the "pasta" that anon speaks of is not the pasta that we in /lit/ are familiar with, but is rather a poor translation for the word "sticks" which in Latin is "Faggotum"
Myself and many others who have read the commentaries would know what you're trying to refer to with your post but it's wrong. Unless of course you were already aware of this and you are posting this ironically. In which case I commend you for your post but it's still blatantly wrong. I would have gone with a collage of poorly cropped images instead.
>>7787099
/lit/ has allowed genre fiction since day one.
>>7786229
I hate this fucking pasta, the corn he refers to is a metaphor you fucking retard. Julius Caesar was using the corn as an image of sociopolitical change against the backdrop of the procession of time, for the Gallic tribes, his army, and Roman society at large. An army marches on its stomach, just as a besieged city will waste its food stores away. The corn keeps growing, and the army keeps marching, and the walls keep coming down. The Gallic tribes would fight together and against each other as the seasons changed, just like political factions in Rome. Caesar was able to comment on this by using the universal truth of this important-for-war commodity as the idealized image of constancy in an ever changing world. Its a literary masterpiece.
>>7786950
>PoMo trash.
say that to my fucking face you ingravescent swine
>>7787326
What exactly is special about literary allusions?
At the risk of sounding extremely ignorant and disrespectful: What is the functional difference between an author like Gene Wolfe frontloading with references of books he likes, and an autist like Chris Chan doing that same thing in his own fanfiction?
I can get if its done to pay homage and for entertainment, but as far as intellectual value goes I'm not seeing it.
>>7787561
>allusions
If you don't understand how an allusion can influence, change or enhance the meaning of a book, you don't belong in /lit/. Intertextuality, bitch.
>>7787326
If you don't flesh out the allusions so that they're nothing more than references, then it's garbage.
>>7787580
Shouldnt the work be able to stand on ts own without gluing together chunks of other works?
Sure, I can understand say someone using a Biblical reference to accenuate a point, making use of cultural memes, etc and I noticed many nice refs to Borges and Melville in BOTNS, but those things in themselves are just tools to help convey a meaning, putting things in a "recognizable" form that honestly couldve been done with ones own symbols were they so inclined, its an either or game.
Its seems like people are wanting to praise something /just because/ it mentions another work, without bringing to the table any idea of how it functions within it. Boiling down to a glorified game of Where's Waldo.
>>7787591
I was describing a feature that highlighted BotNS as modernist, that's hardly BotNS's only merit. If you truly believe BotNS's narrative lacks depth, leave /lit/ fucking now.
>>7787614
Why are you getting upset? I asked a simple question and did not attack the quality of the book, infact its one of my favorites.
>>7787614
*lacks the depth to justify allusions
Ferk, I need to nap
>>7787618
Because you posture your questions like a fucking sophist. People don't feel compelled to answer to the disingenuous.
>>7787614
>I was describing a feature that highlighted BotNS as modernist
Another thing that sets him in stone as a modernist for me is the overarching feeling of disillusionment the books have. If you were to replace WW1 with the Korean War, Wolfe would fit right in with the Paris crowd of the 20s.
>>7787621
Lol I actually get that alot,
>>7787614
>muh genre-shit
>>7787626
Which is why no one likes you. Poor you, locked in his own box.
>>7787627
> muh unimaginative pop-psychology pseudo-intellectual shit
>>7787634
You're jumping in places you know nothing about lol, continue shitting yourself over a little question though (one you barely understood at that, given your kneejerk barking)
>>7787635
Pleb
arc of the dream is some good shit though senpai
>>7787640
Thought it was because most of /lit/ can't get past the "genre" label.
>>7787640
Most of this board is Wolfefags dont kid yourself
Tbr I'm probably one of the few who dosent worship him as a saint
>>7787645
They can't get past the genre label because both genre writers and their fans are annoying little bitches.
>>7787645
Except /lit/ does it all the time with PKD, Tolkien and Gibson (from the top of my head). The problem is Wolfefags are the most annoying shits in this board, trying like hell to justify their meme author because he uses big words and has actually read something that doesn't include fucking unsheates katana or lasers or other shit
>>7787647
Wolfe is a forced meme.
>>7787649
So you're saying /lit/ is too dumb to judge a work on its own merits?
>>7787650
Definitely a no talent pseud.
Where were you when you realized wolfeposters are actually worst than christposters
>>7787665
Meme response
I win
Wolfe confirmed shit-tier
>>7787657
I have all the respect for Wolfe since he's a straightforward man that knows his shit, but what you say about his fans here on /lit/ is true
>>7787667
You're an idiot. I'm the guy who was saying Wolfe is genre shit.
>>7787668
They were on my next pull list for a long ass time, but I legit bought other stuff instead of Book of the New Sun, The Tunnel and Recognitions thanks to wolfefags / gassposter
>>777676
Yea, just read them in your own time, its better that way.
I'm actually glad that I read BOTNS years ago before it became a meme on /lit/. The fanaticsm surrounding him here is embarrasing.
>>7787697
Original guy who poised the question here.
I've no doubt Wolfe thought much about his allusions among other things - he's far from a hack - I was just wondering whats this general propping up of allusions as a sort of end in themselves.
And I only went there since anon seemed to be using allusions as the justification for why GW is good. I found it strange.
>>7787703
>Wolfe thought much about his allusions
Prove it, prove that his allusions are more than just mere references.
>>7786788
>in the end I don't want it to be a disappointment.
depends what you're expecting from the end, because it's DEFINITELY not what you're expecting
>>7787706
You can always just reas it yourself, maybe you'd actually have an idea of what you're talking about.
>tfw we just had a triple shitpoat cycle
>>7787703
You need reading comprehension before you can pose questions.
>>7787710
You're asking me to prove a negative, I'm asking you to prove a positive, that his allusions are of any substance.
>>7787698
default, yes, but it still acknowledges the few gems that occur within those limits, which is fine by me.
>>7787713
If you cant be bothere to read the book yourself, why should I?
Next you'll tell me its because of some arbitrary rule like its Speech 14
>>7787716
So you concede that you lost the argument.
>>7787711
I admit I did fuck up in representing the anon I was responding to. Sorry about that, since it pretty much sent the thread to hell.
>>7787719
Have you read the book?
>>7787722
Enough to know they're garbage
>>7787719
There is no argument per se. Just a shitposter whose prodding everyone is ignoring.
>>7787722
Kek does he sound like someone who has?
>>7787724
Ok then. Dorcas. There you go. A reference with structural significance to the text. But you wouldn't know that since you've probably never got to the finish.
>>7787721
All we need IDs again baby!
>>7787725
There was an argument, you're just angry because Wolfe was outed as a hack, which is why you keep evading all calls to come up with an allusion of substance written by him.
>>7787727
You can't ask me to prove a negative.
If you're going to keep evading the question you might as well just concede that Wolfe is trash.
>>7787729
I JUST ANSWERED THE FUCKING QUESTION YOU DIMWIT.
>>7787734
You haven't proved how it's of substance, by your logic I could include a character named Judas in some erotica and you would praise it for its deep allusions.
>ITT
>>7787742
>neither can you
You can't prove a negative.
>>7787744
You can't read.
>>7787747
False, otherwise I wouldn't be able to respond.
>>7787744
You can't prove you're not autistic
>>7787748
You can't prove a negative.
>REG thread
>1/2 of it is shitposting about Wolfe
>Mfw idc since /lit/ is always shit these days
>>7787755
>win on the internet
>not autistic
>>7787760
Whom are you quoting?
I see you're vying for the last reply.
>>7786840
>mfw a contemporary satirist wrote a satire of this called 'Shamela'
>>7787735
You said you read the books. If you can't see how it's more than a simple reference, you wouldn't be able to understand it even if I explained it to you. Besides, you're clearly a troll, so who the fuck cares what your opinion is. Think whatever you want - no one cares what you think.
>>7787777
beautiful quads
What I read
>crying of lot 49
What I expected
>mystery novel
What I got:
>I get it, you're not supposed to get it!!!! xD
>>7787784
STF--oh its just a gets guy. uh, still a shitposter, but comparably less faggoty.
>>7787829
yes
>>7787706
>Prove it, prove that his allusions are more than just mere references.
Just off the top of my head:
>Terminus Est=allusion to "bearing your cross"
>Temptation of Typhon=Temptation of Christ
>Turns water into wine, pretty self-explanatory
>The Claw=Rose Thorn from Christ's crown of thornes
The point of these allusions is to draw the reader into the narrative and force them to question why it is allusions themselves hold so much sway over us. When it comes to the many allusions to Christ, it's apparent that Wolfe expected his readers to associate Severian with Christ or a messianic figure. Where he flips it on his head is that, unlike Christ, Severian is a severely flawed person who only becomes Christ-like through his long journey to the Autaurchy and tests with the Hierodules. Wolfe is using these allusions to juxtapose the readers understanding of cultural, literary, and historical symbols (literacy) with their pre-concieved notions of what these allusions bring to the readers minds and then goes on to deconstruct those same pre-conceived notions. Severian IS the 'savior' of Urth but in order for it to be saved, it must first be purged. Severian is messianic, but salvation comes with suffering (a very Catholic notion, if there ever was one).
Remember, "We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life—they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all."
>>7787841
okie dokie looks like I should really read this one
>>7787635
>>7787640
>>7787099
>>7787627
>>7787657
>>7787658
>>7787666
>>7787667
>Shitpost incessantly
>Get called out for bullshit
>Get routinely BTFO by Wolfeposters on why Wolfe is indeed a gifted writer
>"YOU WOLFEFAGS ARE RUINING LIT. HAHA MUH GENRE FICTION, HAHA YOU FAGGOTS NO ONE CARES HE'S SUCH A HACK"
Never change /lit/.
>>7787841
To give another example, The Tale of the Student and His Son is a combination of the tale of Theseus and the Minotaur with the Golem myth. Wolfe uses this (fantastic) story to again draw parallels to Severian's quest with classical stories of heroes going on quests to "save" something. Where it gets interesting is, if we are taking the premise of BotNS as literal (that is, Urth is our Earth millions of years into the future, facing total annihilation due to the sun going super-nova), then these ancient stories themselves are destined to be destroyed with the rest of humanity, and yet the fact that Severian is preserving them in his narrative is indicative of the fact that history, mythology, and humanity itself is eschatological bound to endure beyond death, be it person, cultural, historical, or in the case of Urth, planetary.
Hell even Jonas makes a funny comment on this fact by saying (in reference to the tale) "Yes, it is a very old story, and the hero had told the king, his father, that if he failed he would return to Athens with black sails".
The fact that Jonas even mentions Athens solidifies the theme of the cyclical nature of history and the enduring power of myth. No one in Severian's time would have any clue what the fuck Athens even was and the tale itself is an amalgamation of a couple of different myths smashed together to form a new and unique myth.
>>7787870
> b-b-b-ut genre-shit
>>7786950
he misses the meta, but the end of the world scenario, anachronistic devices, magical realism and intertextuality are all there.
I mean, sure it also has stream-of-consciousness and unreliable narrator, but I suppose you could classify Wolfe as a transition between the two.
>>7787099
>implying literary fiction can't be classified into genres
Keep telling yourself that my elitist friend
>>7787870
You appear to have missed yet another layer: the story is also about Jonas himself. The "son" is clearly a robot designed to combat some alien menace, and Jonas IS a robot who is god knows how old, and particularly affected by the story (in which the "son" fails).
This is further evidenced by the fact that the story also references Jason and the Argonauts, Jonas being an anagram of Jason.
WOLFE FAGS FUCK OFF
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>7788343
Retard
Thanks for the recommendation, /lit/. I really enjoyed it.
>>7788692
>Even /lit/ can't escape the clusterfuck image memers.
can someone post the dante one that's >tfw no gf on third panel?
>>7788921
How are those books? Everyone keeps saying they're hot garbage and an utter rape of Frank Herber's legacy.
>>7788924
>>7788951
w-wut?
>>7788932
>hot garbage and an utter rape
Well its not that bad but most of why people hate is can be justified but for the most part I only read for the lore. The setting seem to be more Gothic compare to Frank Herber and that's about it. There is not much special in the story other than Skynet/Brains in Mech killing countless number of cultist slaves and the Spice thrown into the clusterfuck of a story.
>>7788965
What's wrong?
>>7789067
Pls no bully :(
>>7789114
I have no idea what you're even on about
>>7788932
everything past god emperor is utter shit
>>7786306
What about Di Maggio-san desu
>>7789289
>hating on Heretics and Chapterhouse
They're not bad, just different.
Anything not written by Frank is the real utter shit imho.
>>7787967
genreshit doesn't refer to that which can be classified by type or genre, as of course all things can, but that which is of the genre and for the sake of the genre, written explicitly to be within that genre, and w/o any particular inclination to innovate, improve, add some new artistic semion to the mix, etc.
>>7789138
the twist is obvious though. you can see it from a mile away, could've seen it from same, even on first publication, in all likelihood. the twist isn't the point.
>>7789394
Wouldn't know, as i already knew the twist before i read it
>>7786209
Switch the two images on the right and that's what I got. Ending was kind of meh.
>>7786209
literally this.
>>7784752
what painting is that in "expected" portion pls
>>7790132
exactly why i didnt read. movies better. movies great.
>>7789138
>he didn't understand the queer subtext
>>7790143
you much think yes good?
me much think yes good!
>>7791148
You know these are supposed to be jokes, right?
>>7786597
So, it isn't worth reading then?
>>7791169
>implying dostoevsky fans have a sense of humor
it's like you don't even lurk
>>7786644
>It was pretty good
I feel the same way and that W&P was better.
>>7788736
I keep seeing how the guy is a massive douche but is the book itself good?
>>7791245
>one of the landmarks of modernist poetry
>not worth reading
Please r8. I've never made this before. I couldn't put the book down.
>>7788658
>not ck2
>>7790132
How?
>>7791268
The book is excellent, you should definitely read it.
>>7786623
I was thinking of reading this, I guess I should just skip then eh?
>>7784807
I tried but it's just as dense and packed with allusions, textual layers and irony etc. et. ali as Wilhelm Meister so it's hard to make one that's not a cancerous fucking collage
>>7791491
If that joke image makes you genuinely want to skip it, then the Magus is exactly the book you should be reading. It's damn good.
>>7791323
Once more with fewer memes.
>>7790601
No such thing.
Modern day people just oversexualise everything, back in Victorian time, that sort of behavior was normal amongst male friends.
>>7787970
Damn, Daniel
>>7789385
But anon Wolfe doesn't fit that description at all. If you read BotNS as just another commercial D&D knockoff you're a fucking moron.
>>7791491
It's a solid read and does fuck with your perceptions a bit. I recommend it.
>>7788951
Hippolytus was great m8
>>7791494
To be honest magic mountain is nowhere dense as gene wolfe ... meinheir peppercorn!! It shows the innovative application of "advanced technology" like x ray machines etc in this isolated sanatarium where time seems to pass slowly, but since nothing happens, time has been for all intents and purposes wasted ... while those who fought and died in the war, though their lives passed quickly, actually filled it with meaning. The most interesting thing Mann did was examine what is now outdated technology in an almost mystical numinous sense, since this was the only true evidence that time has actually moved forward to those locked in a terminal stasis. Good book, not THAT dense.
>>7791494
But i forgot to say that collage works well ...
>>7791851
>>7788692
The scene with the devil is so fucking good
>>7787350
Caesar wouldn't have known about corn. It came from the Americas
>>7791509
Wow you sound like a faggot lmfao
>>7786597
>nothing about wagner
I will never believe a random site classification of a book as comedy anymore
>>7792129
Ilusha's funeral best scene
>>7787758
>weebs being allowed to post
>>7792376
Kek
>>7791512
RLS was literally a homosexual. Nobody's over-sexualizing THAT behavior, but you.
