Since you guys are so well-read, what makes a manly man according to the literary greats? What qualities beside physical separate him from woman and child?
I keep having debates with myself over this. What kind of deeply engrained thinking and decision making is so masculine that if a woman were to copy it she would transcend just being an aloof cursing bitch or tomboy and from that point on truly be considered heroic, deeply confident, manly?
I don't think such a thing can exist. Women are masters of adaptation, jewkin. I was going to post a wall of text but no one would read it anyways. Just share your thoughts
>>7776133
Virtu
>>7776133
A PENIS
t. literary great
>>7776135
I'm not educated in philosophy but I think this is where I was going. In particular stability of personality derived from virtu. Got any authors except stoics?
Being a part of a previous era is, at least, a part of it. Machismo has little place in today's society. Perhaps Herakles could be taken as the ideal man by the Greeks, but out ideal man today must be someone more akin to Leopold Bloom: compassionate and generous, but never self-destructively so; intelligent and sensitive,
but never to the point where pragmatism is lost; brave when he is called to be so, but never, never brash. A Greek may have been an acceptable role-model for the Greeks, but a Jew is needed for the modern, cosmopolitan man.
>>7776948
>a jew
you think they fit those characterstics?
>>7776161
Not that anon, but that's a huge driving force in Machiavelli. Read his Discourses on Livy rather than The Prince if you have to pick one or the other.
But keep in mind that he derives that from ancient history writers. The stoics may be an obvious read, but M is pulling from Plato, Polybius, and Livy, all of whom I would recommend for gleaning an ancient perspecive of virtù. Plato is the most well known, Livy is by far the most fun, and Polybius is arguably the earliest "academic" historian whose works still survive. All great choices.
>>7776161
Plutarch's Lives.
His depictions and explanations of masculine virtue are just as relevant today and apply to women as well.
>>7776996
As well as any group of modern men, yes. Of course one must remember that Bloom is an idealization just as much as Odysseus, his literary forefather, or Herakles are. What I meant by that is that the 'meek,' sensible spirit which is traditionally called Hebraic is what must be striven for in an all-too-active world.
>>7776948
>but out ideal man today must be someone more akin to Leopold Bloom
>a beta cuck
thanks but no thanks.
>>7777012
"yeah I'll just use greentexting and two buzzwords in answer to that guy's paragraph"
>>7777012
A cuckhold, yes, but so too are Agamemnon and Achilleus. The difference, of course, between Bloom and a Greek hero is that Bloom does not disregard all sense for an uncivilized sense of 'honor.' I like to think that Bloom will do something after his encounter with Stephen Dedalus - perhaps, on June 17th or 18th, he will talk to his wife, or even confront Boylan, as he has shown in his encounter with the Cyclops that he can be brave and stand up or himself when his naturally serene, quasi-stoical outlook becomes temporarily untenable. I think it is that same outlook which makes you call him 'beta,' but it must be remembered that the ideas of beta- as opposed to alpha-males is zoological, and I would like to think that we in the 20th and 21st centuries are rather more man than animal. And that is why I say Bloom is the consummate man, with none of the animalistic tendencies of his literary forebears.
"...but the fact remains that the lesson we learnt from him was one of a capacity for openness and generosity, a practical commitment—as well as a technical and moral one—to the things that had to be done, a straightforward look, a rejection of self-contemplation or self-pity, a readiness to snatch a lesson for life, the worth of a person summed up in a brusque exchange, or a gesture."
>>7777025
Alright then, let me articulate.
I refuse to accept the idea that the perfect man for this age is someone that KNOWS his wife is cheating on him and does NOTHING about it because he's too weak, and scared, and fearful of losing her.
>>7777059
Why then, you are a fool. Which could, I suppose, have been deduced from your initial reaction. Bloom is in fact a paragon of strength even though he doesn't bash any skulls in, but because of your simple mind, you fail to see it.
>>7776948
>>7777012
>So in a sense I may even agree with Nietzsche: it would be good if the average woman wished to be noticed for being literary (although, of course, if the average woman (or average person) read significantly, then there would no longer be much reason to take notice). But something similar may be said of men too. I think it will be generally agreed that Leopold Bloom is the consummate image of what the Modern Man should be. He, also, 'perpetrates literature.' He is not a philosopher or an artist, but yet he keeps an eye on the worlds of philosophy and art and science, half-yearning to be in one of them, but with the wisdom that the choosing of the one means the foregoing of much of the broader pleasures of life. And, though I admit I may be way off the mark, I think that's how Nietzsche's saying most women should be, though the ones most cherished by posterity are those with some sort of imbalance.
>>7777056
this is a shallow interpretation of hemingway
>>7776133
Reason.
