Anybody else here read this? I'm in love with it right now, there's something about it that speaks to me more than Homer.
Also what's with Germanic poets becoming anonymous (thinking about this guy and whoever told Beowulf)
thought it was a dumb manchild story tbqh
>>7472134
It's a great book. Hagen was a real asshole.
>>7472185
>obviously hasn't read it
>>7472669
1. he had his reasons
2. i haven't read the original text, only a retelling, but imho siegfried was the bigger arsehole
Poor man's Volsunga Saga
>>7473190
In what way was Siegfried an asshole? He did definately not deserve it.
Hagen was a dick, and though Gunther was largely to blame Hagen came off as the most evil person in the story for he was constantly pushing for the shit Gunther pulled.
>>7472134
I have read it and wrote an essay about it. (Though that is currently not available to me, lost in harddrive limbo.)
It was probably written down (though not invented!) by some literarily educated monk in the 12th century. There wasn't much of a reason for him to note his name, it was a work to be read aloud to people and not silent to yourself in a chamber, so the reader was more important than the writer. It has a longer literary tradition than what is written down, which you will notice when pay attention to how the work constantly assumes that the reader already knows the story. Because everyone knew it. It was a classic story back then, like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings is today. Saying "Hagen kills Siegfried." back then would be like going around saying "Darth Vader is Luke's father." today, so the Lied did not even have to try to hide the fact that it would end in hybris-induced tragedy
Anyway, have you read Wagner's take on the subject, Der Ring des Nibelunen? I can really recommend it.
>>7473211
>In what way was Siegfried an asshole? He did definately not deserve it.
He raped Brunhilde and he was a threat to the Kingdom of the Burgundids (Hagen had to kill him for reason of state alone, if not for the rape), he stole all of the gold of the Nibelungs by killing the sons of king Nibelung. All this is just from the top of my head, there's probably more. (Mind you, I've only read a retelluing, maybe the source differs (rape is still definitely in there)).
>>7473223
He raped Brunhild because Gunther wanted him to rape her, so that Gunther could claim it was him. Having sex with your wife in the night after marriage was one of the most important parts of marriage back then, and Brunhild refused it since she saw Gunther as the pansy he was. So Siegfried had to take away the belt that gave her her strength (which is obviously a metaphor for virginity). Brunhild was in the wrong here because she defied the laws of the medieval court (and of medieval society by being stronger than a man) and Siegfried helped Gunther to set things right, since Gunther despite being the king was unable to restore the order himself.
Siegfried was not a threat to Burgund, quite the opposite, he did more for the Kingdom than anyone else. All the shit that happened until Siegfried's death was the fault of Gunther and by extent Hagen. He did not tell his wife the truth about Siegfried's identity, so it came to the quarrel of the women infront of the Münster in which Brunhild deemed Kriemhild below her, which lead to Brunhild's honour needing to be restored - by killing Siegfried.
The theme of the work is people defying the order of the medieval court, resulting in catastrophe. If you will read it one day, try to see it through that lense rather your modern one, in which all the rape and killing obviously is not okay no matter what.
Also, Siegfried did not steal the gold. The Nibelungs (which funnily enough always just seems to be the name of the current owner of the treasure, rather than the name of the sons of King Nibelung) asked Siegfried to justly divide their father's gold, which he did, but due to their greed they both wanted more and attacked him. Siegfried killed them in self-defense and took the treasure as his rightful reward.
>>7473255
You make several good points, and I'm not gonna argue against them, because you obviously know more about these matters than I do, but, in the end, rape is still rape, there's no thing as justified rape, not in the Middle Ages and not now. And this is what makes Siegfried an arsehole in my book.
Her also killed another kid as a child for no reason (is that in the original or was it just some poetic license the author of the 19th century retelling I've read took?)
>>7472134
>Also what's with Germanic poets becoming anonymous (thinking about this guy and whoever told Beowulf)
Shit tier tribal cultures.
>inb4 shitskin, I'm norwegian
>>7473275
Siegfried's childhood is not really told in the original, other than that he got his knighthood and went out into the world to prove himself as a man, so that he can return as an experienced guy who can then become king of Xanten (along those lines).
And like I said, yeah, rape is not acceptable, but what Siegrfried did to Brunhild was not rape, it was a restauration of courtly order. Like I said, try to see it through the lense of that time rather than yours.
its great, i wrote a paper on it for lit class. hagen is an interesting case, the story is pieced together from many different sources and thus he is basically the hero in part deux, with kriemhilt becoming a revenge driven harpy, and is satan and hitlers lovechild in pt. 1
>>7473279
His childhood is told in the Saga of the Volsungs (the Norse version of the story), I can't remember it though; I recall wolves.
>>7473280
Yeah, Kriemhild basically sacrificing Siegrfried's son just to get revenge was some tuff shit.
>>7473281
Is that a contemporary medieval story, or is it one of the ancient mythological sagas that the Lied draws inspiration from? I think Sigfridunal or something like that was the Edda version of the Siegrfried story.
Also, funnily enough Siegfried killing a dragon is only mentioned in one verse in the medieval Lied, despite it being considered his greatest feat. The mythological aspect of the Lied is reduced to a bare minimum, since, you know, christianity and stuff.
>>7473291
The Saga of the Volsungs is the 13th century Icelandic Saga of the rise and fall of the Volsung Clan; it has many parallels to the Nibelungleid, with minor differences such as Siegfried being Sigurd and etcetera. I think the dragon slaying played a bigger part; I recall he did it as a favor to a Smith so he would repair his ancestral sword or something.
I really ought to re-read it soon, especially as it's only about 70 pages long.
>>7473303
Ah, I see. The reparation of the ancestral sword is an element I know from Wagner's Ring, so I suppose it also dates back to the norse mythos that all these stories draw from.
>>7473343
Yeah, thank you for contributing it.
Slightly off topic, but has anyone read The Shahnameh, is it as good as the other epics?
>>7473309
yes, wagner dates a lot of his themes back to the norse versions of the saga, such as hagen being the half-brother of gunther and part alb (think proto dwarf/faerie), the more drawn out account of the battle with fafner etc.
>>7473385
A bit off topic, but Tolkien gave instructions on how to translate the word "elve" into german, and said it was more related to "Alb" than to the german "Elfe" (which is "fairy"). In case some german here is wondering why only in Lord of the Rings is "elve" translated to "Elb" while in every other fantasy work it is translated to "Elf". "Alb" always reminds me of that.
Back on topic again, I wonder why Hagen is not related to Gunther in the medieval Lied. Maybe so that the evil influence is not from the royal family itself, but rather from an "intruder".
The case can be made that this makes no sense since Kriemhild turns evil later on, but that was arguably due to Hagen's actions.
>>7473437
that is prett spot on, from what i read. the nibelungenlied is in a long tradition of interpretations of the same basic structures, and its remarkably more politicized. "höfisch" life (life at the keep) takes a way stronger focus, and as somebody in this thread has already pointed out, all the mythological feats, the conquering of the nibelungehort, the battle with the dragon and siegfrieds invulnerability are all taken as red. in earlier version of the nibelungenstories, hagen is much closer related to gunther, and simultaneously is the only one to vouch against the murder of siegfried, though he stays loyal and does not denounce his lord after the deed. the later, more political versions of the nibelungenlied thus basically had to reinterpret hagens loyalty in the face of moral compromise as a sign of immoral character and made him the murderer, distanced him from the royal family etc. for people more interested in hagen (and fluent in german) i can recommend gerd backenköhlers dissertation on the figure, its very good for getting an overview of all the different versions that there are.
>>7473437
>>7473461
as for kriemhilt turning evil later on, to a pretty riduculous degree, thats basically an awkward fusing of two different stories. one of the three different manuscripts of the nibelungenlied tries to remedy this by putting in some accounts of hagens thoughts, where hes made out to be cowardly and selfish (being afraid that kriemhilt might let her brother go after killing him, thus dooming him out of pettiness in the end)
the history of the story is a bit of a mess of millions of different adaptations
Wow, I'm really glad there managed to be an actual discussion of the poem here, and that plenty of people have read it
The story itself is so wonderful that every way its told (no matter the source or style) feels fresh to me
>>7473467
>kriemhilt turning evil later on, to a pretty riduculous degree
Well, Siegfried was just such an awesome guy to such a ridiculous degree.
I mean, seriously, it seems downright goofy how everything in the Lied is showered in superlatives. When Siegrfried rides to battle we are told that "no one after him has ever fought as brave and as hard", when a feast is held in celebration of victory "it is the most magnificent banquet any kingdom has ever celebrated", and when the woman come to the courtyard "they are the most beautiful woman that eyes have ever behold".
I guess this is just medieval style, but you start to take it less serious as the novel goes on.
>>7475107
It is medieval style, which you have to understand goes like this "there was troy and then it got destroyed and its been downhill from there"
>>7473187
I have. It's fantasy-tier type crap in character and story. Iliad is a lot more adult in its treatment of war.
>>7472134
It's on my list for first half of 2016.
>tfw baby steps into mittelhochdeutsch
>>7475202
You just revealed your pleb level. I bet you listen to music for the 'message'.
>>>/reddit/
>>7475300
Most of these are really simple, or are you learning Niederdeutsch at the same time? I don't know Mittelhochdeutsch and I'm really not that good at Niederdeutsch, but I can tell what 80% of those words mean just by looking at them
>>7475300
>>7475362
>lord, servant, ???, clan?, bravery, brave, ???, family/kin?, retard
>work, be silent?, with anger or difficulty (ardour)?, loss?, adventure, stupid? (like in French?), example (beispiel), butthurt, thanks
>celebration?, serves, enjoyed, with thanks, without thanks, to be enjoyed, work/deed, mercy, heart, thing
How did I do?
>>7475362
>Most of these are really simple
There are lots of false friends there, same words with slightly to totally different meaning.
>degen is a heroic person, not a weapoen
>wîp is any women, not a wive
>hôchgezît is not a marriage, it's just festivities
>or are you learning Niederdeutsch at the same time?
No, mhd and nd are not really that related. Are you from the North :^) ?
>>7475403
Yeah, I'm >>7475399 >>7475399 and I'm Swedish. I guess we get a very intuitive understanding of German in all of its forms. Funny that two of the ones you mentioned were the ones I didn't get, and one trick one that I got without thinking (I do know that Hochzeit is marriage in nd but when I was trying to figure it out I guess I just juxtaposed it onto Swedish which has actually retained the older meaning).
>>7475416
Oh, I thought you were German, so I got the mordern German answers and some more. Enjoy anyway.
>lord/god, manager of some sort, heroic person, blood-relative, clan, king, woman, dame, domestic staff, retard
>hate (you missed that one[arc]), plight/hardship, caress, male lover, relative, adventure, plea, example, melee/fight lots vs lots, thought
>celebration, service, companion, volontarily, unvolontarily, comfyness and place of comfyness, mercy, heart, hope/thought
bretty good/10, some of them were spot on (bîspel, hôchgezît) and some others are way against one intuition/impossible to know
>>7475497
Oh crap, you're right, lots of those really were trick words! And I'm hitting myself now for failing bete, guess I've been reading too much French lately.
Where are you from?
>>7475497
solutions:kindredship, nephew, virgin/girl, female lover (not bride), confidece/pride/reliance, marriage, reputation, spouse, truchsessboy/knave, law, repentance/replacement, stranger, old and new testament, man, servant/knave, people + wandering people
Anyway, time to sleep, good night!
>>7475535
Nice, thanks!
Quick, before you leave, what material are you using? Do you work with two versions at the same time, in mhd and nd or English? Using a guide?
>>7475531
>>7475537
I'm from Southern Germany, no problem :3
>Quick, before you leave, what material are you using?
I'm enrolled in university, this is first semester stuff. There's a dedicated basic vocab (now you know about 15% of it) and a reader in the course. But that's just more or less compressed from "Thordis Henning - Einführung in das Mittelhochdeutsche". If you can't get enough vocab: check "woerterbuchnetz (dot) de (slash) LEXER" and "woerterbuchnetz (dot) de (slash) BMZ"
>Do you work with two versions at the same time, in mhd and nd or English? Using a guide?
There are a lots of books with left page mhd/ right page modern german, just like in the OP. Currently working on Erec by Hartmann von Aue, but I'm still not so good^^
I'll get back to this thread tomorrow, good night!
>>7475580
Thanks a lot <3! I'm heading off to bed myself, but you've inspired me to actually get to work on reading it in mhd!
Is there a particular English translation or edition of this that is necessary?
>>7475724
I'd recommend the Burton Raffel translation
>>7475892
thanks
>tfw grew up in north germany
>have no problems reading mhd
>>7476517
same senpai
>>7472134
You might enjoy the Volsunga Saga as well, then. It's the saga that inspired this epic.
>>7475403
>wîp is any women, not a wive
only half-true, wîp is a non-noble woman, frouwe is a noble woman
>>7476879
We've had that topic already in this thread: the Nibelungenlied is not inspired by the Volsunga Saga, (in fact, the Lied is older) but rather they both draw from the same source: the Edda.
I'm fluent in German, but I don't think I will be able to read the original and fully understand it since it's written in some ancient German gobbledygook.
Can anyone recommend an edition that has both the original and a good modern German translation of the text?
If that's not possible, what are the best modern German translations? I would probably be able to get the original text some other place
>>7477303
It depends, we're both right ;-)
Straight outta my basic vocab:
wîp (in contrast to vrouwe) independet of status for any female being, modern: woman/Frau. Not: wive/Weib.
Especially in Minnesang non-noble "plain" woman, in contrast to the unattainable noble frouwe/Herrin.
>>7475599
Great!
>>7476863
>>7476517
Did you study mhd? Because one gotta know the conventions set by Karl Lachmann to do it right, for example the pronounciation of diphtongs and so on, i.e. "triuwe" vs. "dienstman".
triuwe -> iu is a monophtong, a long ü.
dienstman -> ie is a diphtong [í-e]
>>7477404
>Just get the Reclam version.
That's what I was planning on, I just figured I would ask since this thread is relevant and I haven't read any version that would give me an indicator of the translation's quality yet
>>7477436
Reclam is for the most part perfectly fine translation wise. A student's standard.
Seriously, when studying literature in Germany you WILL accumulate a "yellow meter" on your shelf.
>>7475399
Dutch here.
Lord (heer)
Servant (dienaar)
Sword (degen)
Power? (macht)
Queen (koningin)?
King (koning)?
Wife (wijf)
Lady (vrouwe)
People outside / inside (Aes inde, In gesinde (ingezetenen)?)
Villages or village people (dörper, dorpelingen)
Curve? (Kurve?)
Work
Love (teder)
Friendly (vriendelijk)
Angry or perhaps caution? Not sure because arge normally would mean heavy (erg), but I'm not familiar with 'mit arge'. It could also be something similar to the Dutch 'met argusogen' perhaps, which means to look at someone with weary eyes).
Friend, female friend (vriend, vriendin)
Adventure
Pray (bidden)?
Example (zum beispiel)
Belongs to (behoort)?
Thanks (dank)
Wedding (hochzeit) or perhaps noble (hoogheid)
Serving (dienen)
Pleasure (genot)
With thanks (met dank)
Without thanks (ohne dank)
Getting pleasure or being satisfied
Made (gemaakt)
Mercy (genade)
Heart (herze, hart)
counsel of some sorts, judging elders (geding)
>>7477782
>Sword (degen)
>>7477883
dat nigga ashy as fuck
just watch the Wagner plays imo t b h
![4009330-01[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/NDoXity.jpg "4009330-01[1].jpg")
>>7472134
Now watch the opera andread the P Craig Russell comic.
>>7477782
het spreekwoord 'met argusogen bekijken' komt van griekse mythologie, waar Hera het monster Argus de alziende Io (in koevorm) liet bewaken. Ik geloof dus niet dat er een connectie is.
Misschien is ons woord 'argwaan' verwant? arg als in erg, waan als in een denkbeeld
>>7477886
>YGO players
>moisturizing
>hell, caring about their appearance at all
>>7479107
Ik weet van de Griekse etymologie, maar misschien deelt het Duitse woord dezelfde Griekse bron.
>>7480426
I don't buy those, some are clearly wrong
>>7480725
Which ones?
Haha I enjoy that cover
