A great number of painters, authors, philosophers, musicians, and other kinds of artists lived in Paris between the 1870s and the 1960s.
Do you think Paris is still the bohemian and artistic capital of the world, or it has changed now? Or maybe that such thing does not exist anymore?
Also, what do you think about living the bohemian-artist life? You know, poverty, love struggles, depression, expressing through your art, knowledge, sex, philosophy... Spending all day writing or painting while listening to Chopin ...
Was this way of living killed by pretentious hipsters and that kind of retards?
probly a bunch of english teachers in southeast asia, some place you can live cheap and decadently and not work too hard at the day job and still have time to write
but lets see them actually produce something worth reading and not just getting addicted to underage prostitutes and cheap heroin
>>7457146
I don't know about Paris since I've never been there, but I would assume it's pretty shit, what with a million tourists constantly around and gimmicky souvenirs all over the place. I don't think there is an artistic capital of the world, hell art itself is pretty fucking down right now, art and literature. About that lifestyle, I would love it, but the problem is steady money. I wouldn't have a problem living on the bare necessities, but simply ensuring you have that is hard.
>what do you think about living the bohemian-artist life?
Wish it was possible to live it.
>Was this way of living killed by pretentious hipsters and that kind of retards?
I think it was more to do with the art communities around the world dragging art and literature further and further down the drain. "Pretentious hipsters" didn't cause this, they're just the users.
>>7457163
I don't know, when Greece runs out of money and if they decide to get out of the EU, maybe some place in Greece could be the next 1920s Paris. And imagine if Greece hauled ass out of EU in the early 2020s.
>>7457146
French used to be the lingua franca (no shit) until World War 2, thats why its lost its place as the metropolitan center of world culture.
There is no real center today, its just become less important in general for artists to congregate since its possible to form sub-cultures and connect with other creative people a lot easier today with the internet.
Like this very board for instance, not to overstate its importance but its a place for people with a serious interest in literature to meet up and exchange ideas and views that didn't exist just a couple decades ago.
No, Paris is absolutely shit today.
As for there being a modern centre of art, I don't think there is one. Partially because of what this guy >>7457196 said, and partially because there is no sincere interest in art anymore
>>7457243
>partially because there is no sincere interest in art anymore
le wong genaracion
>>7457248
how's that what he's saying? there's no sincere in interest anymore nowadays, what's the le wrong generation in saying that?
Read Zola, he wrote some great paintings of Paris and bohemian life. He wrote many so look into him.
>>7457251
Because its an absurd statement that in a world with billions more literate people and consumption of literature higher than ever there's no sincere interest anymore. If there's no sincere interest today there never was
>>7457266
But that was OP's question
>>7457266
>implications
epic
>>7457146
>Do you think Paris is still the bohemian and artistic capital of the world, or it has changed now? Or maybe that such thing does not exist anymore?
paris has some cache still, more intellectual than artistic, but it's mostly old-guard. bohemians do exist but they're bourgeois bohemians, we call them bobos. this is not a city for poor people.
>>7457309
*cachet sorry
english is my first language yet I try to use french expressions on japanese web based imageboards
>>7457342
is it? oh well.
english isn't my first language, but neither is french.
>>7457146
Has been eroded by the pretentious, sadly. I respect anybody who takes the starving artist approach but doesn't make it a conversational piece every few seconds.
>>7457186
>but I would assume it's pretty shit, what with a million tourists constantly around and gimmicky souvenirs all over the place
Travel if you want, but never be a tourist. I really fucking hate that word.
>tfw this is "art" nowadays
1/5
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5/5
:(
Living in an eastern european capital - there are plenty of people like that. University students.
>>7460933
Which one? Budapest? Warsaw? Willing to move there if there's an interesting scene going on.
>>7457146
After WW2, writers often avoid each other as much as they congregate. Mexico City is where American writers go to escape.
It's heavily romanticised. I doubt many of the artists, when not drunk, were having a great time.you will never be apart of a community of struggling but amazing artists
B E R L I N
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>>7457146
Paris got too expensive for most actual artists, unless they're well established, or a hipster with rich parents.
>>7457186
>tourists
They keep the tourists pretty well contained. By building all of their most famous monuments and their most famous museums all in a row, the tourists stock around there and rarely leave that area. Easy enough to avoid.
There are other attractions that tourists love, like the Sacre Coeur, but (aside from that) they keep the tourist concentrations very diffuse.
Basically, when I lived in Paris, I never felt overrun by tourists unless I was on the Champs Elysses or in Tuileries trying to read outside. Even then, not really overrun, just annoyed by them taking pictures of me.
>>7461286
Not the guy, butIt's definitely not Warsaw. Sorry. ;_;
what's the difference between bohemian and self-indulgent irresponsible manchild?
>>7461729
The aesthetic and brand of alcohol he drinks.
>>7457309
kek I kind of miss bobos. They're still treated like hipsters were in pre-2010 USA, an easy target for mockery.
>>7458441
worng gerenation!
>>7457146
>Was this way of living killed by pretentious hipsters and that kind of retards?
Bohemians have always been pretentious hipsters and that kind of retards. It's just that a few tend to create something memorable and it's those that are remembered. For every good writer from such an environment you have have had hundreds of insufferable, useless cunts.
Paris is a status-city now. You don't live there to do anything real—you live there to prove that you can.
>>7461729
The Bohemian needs to be incredibly well-fed, physically and culturally, to sustain creativity. The manchild eats for the sake of it.
>>7458422
Recreational travel is tourism, no matter whether you're LARPing an adventurer in your Indian hostel.
>>7457261
This, the vast majority of people never gave a fuck about artistic pursuits. The thing is that all those people from back then are dead, except for the ones that did something memorable, leading people who don't think so good to conclude that everyone back then did memorable shit.
>>7461787
why deleted? you had me, hebrew.
>>7461756
so nothing but further delusion
>>7461729
That distinction only holds water if you buy into self-preservation. If you aren't aiming at a house in the 'burbs and would rather risk security for the chance to be creative then there is no such distinction.
Why waste your life on "responsibility" if you don't value it? It's not like you can't just kill yourself if things go too poorly and there are enough people in society that you will barely have mattered either way anyway.
>>7461756
>Paris is a status-city now. You don't live there to do anything real—you live there to prove that you can.
Sounds like every first world country's first city to be honest.
>>7461862
yea, this is a pretty interesting idea
i hear this about new york all the time now, that people just go there to be there, that's good enough. creative types don't need to prove themselves much if they just reach a certain threshold of months stayed in a neighborhood with significant dwindling poverty. do like one reading or go to the right parties and you're set. this type of currency only floats so far with certain people, obviously, but it's enough to satisfy many BFA holders
i mean these cities are mystifying, like the histories of new york, london, paris, berlin, what have you are fascinating, and some sort of association by proximity is enticing, but do those cities really allow the lifestyles that historical creatives lived anymore? aren't most of them so laden with expense that life in them becomes a desperate attempt to stay financially relevant?
>>7457163
asia sounds nice.
let's all move to jakarta and start writing
Paris is dead.
>>7461821
It was in the wrong thread. Go to >>7461794 if you want to see it.
>>7461862
Not every, but most. Saying it's every Alpha+ city is more accurate: New York-Paris-London-Tokyo, really. I'm an NYC native and, well—it's less of a living space/lifestyle and more of a who-can-stay-here-the-longest competition nowadays. I still think they're worth living in, it's just that you won't find a burgeoning arts scene in any of them. Try Brussels, Tel Aviv, whatever for that.
>>7461989
Addendum: Tel Aviv's anything-scene actually kinda sucks, like most of the people living there and its very existence, but at least it's there. It's just that it's full of stupid little Jewish kids who think they're being "naughty" by being as loudly secular as possible and going nowhere with it.
Brussels is where it's at.
>>7461989
>Tel Aviv
>קֹהֶלֶת
-_-
>>7461963
Diversity is a good thing you moron.
>>7461948
As someone who lived in Paris, they are far too expensive, making it really difficult to live the historical creative lifestyle. I ate on under 7 euro a day, which is fine to eat in, but it doesn't allow for the cafe lifestyle.
>>7462004
Oy vey, goy, I'm Jewish, that's right.
It's a cooler city than you might expect—it's just full of terrible people and built on a terrible ideal. If you can look past those things (I can't), you might enjoy hanging out with Moshe and Ernest there a little bit.
>>7461963
Brussels and Barcelona are both way more diverse than Paris, and way cooler besides.
It's not diversity that fucked Paris over, it's rapid gentrification and an ideal of the city that has absolutely nothing to do with what it's actually like.
>>7462058
I hate Zionists though. I don't care one way or another for Jews.
>>7461997
>Brussels is where it's at.
As long as you wear body armor when visiting the Jewish museum.
>>7462011
in truth, tho, rising urban immigrant populations are less supportive of the arts and tend to focus on economic success within their own communities.
their kids are p cool tho. i guess it just takes a generation.
>>7462053
what did you do while there? i think that's the key for me. i believe that it's possible to exist on the cheap in most any city, but to be able to work on writing/painting/ what have you is another story.
a thought just occurred to me:
has the shift towards new money and the self-made man ended the idea of patronage? cause that seems to be a viable way to live this lifestyle. and i don't mean mommy/daddy, but like people who actually want to see your work do well.
Any Burger cities worth being in? I'm thinking NOLA these days, cheap enough to live that artists can actually live there without being wage slaves, and pretty permissive of alternative lifestyles. Good museums, bookstores, alright cafes, and a distinctive atmosphere.
>>7462061
Zionists are the best Jews, they want to be a normal people in a normal country rather than a bunch of wandering annoying gypsies disturbing shit wherever they go.
Globalist Jews are the scary ones.
>>7462071
>their kids are p cool tho
Yes, they murder satirists. Great for the arts.
Second or third gen immigrants with an identity crisis are the worst ones. First gen are usually alright.
>>7462071
I was trying to support myself on my writing, but ended up cleaning apartments. It was just a shit existence, paying way too much just for a room. The thing with Paris is since it is still so small (until the soon to be expanded city limits) is they have driven the cheaper poorer parts of town out entirely into the suburbs.
>>7462075
>normal people in a normal country
No, they're a bunch of godless secularists who try to justify murder and imperialism with a religion they don't follow.
>>7462087
As I said, a proper Western first world country, except we tend to use humanism these days.
>>7462061
Yeah, I hate Zionists too.
>>7462123
orthodox scum detected
>>7462148
Reform, yo.
>>7462123
Good.
>>7462167
>jews don't deserve their own country
oppressive desu
>>7462212
No, we don't need our own country. We're best as a nomadic people.
>>7462220
You don't need your own country like gypsies don't need their own country, as in, you need not to have your own country to practise your ways. That's why Israelis are barely Jews anymore and that's why they're alright.
>>7462212
Zionists are oppressors.
>>7462235
You're talking about Tel Avivim. Israel is increasingly conservative outside of it.
>>7462242
Not necessarily.
>>7461759
I was referring to never being the retard in shorts with a camera hanging from the neck watching everything with a big autism smile. Go, travel, see new things, but have some decency at least.
Any cities worth living for a wannabe young artist in America (continent)?
I've heard Mexico City and Buenos Aires are good choices.
>>7463256
those are good choices, sau paulo too.
>>7463224
Being a tourist in a hipper uniform is still the same thing and the locals will con your special experience seeking ass just the same, if not more.
Youths tricking themselves into thinking they're more than tourists are a great market, you can sell them authenticity by the pound.
>>7463256
Buenos Aires looks neat, tbqh
>>7463256
>>7463367
i'd argue detachment the way to go, also heavy drug use
>>7463256
>>7463367
>>7463371
>>7463256
Montevideo, Rio de Janeiro, Valparaiso.
>>7463367
>>7463371
>>7463376
>>7463256
>tfw your national monument will never be a giant phallic symbol
Mexico and Argentina are Pynchon-approved so you can't be wrong
>>7463453
>Mexico and Argentina
shitskins everywhere
>tfw spending your days wandering around the citys aimlessly with pen and paper
>>7463453
>tfw your national monument will never be a giant mercedes-benz, telefonica, panasonic, sprite symbol
>>7463550
like everyone else then, pen and paper excluded
>>7462158
I'm Reform Jewish also. Good to see another one here on /lit/
>>7463453
Buenos Aires is also Borges' city. It's probably the most literary city in South America, and one of the top three literary cities in the Western Hemisphere.
What if /lit/ started a writers' colony? That might be fun. Would you join?
>>7464591
probably not
>>7461963
kek i've been there. got off the subway to walk to a nearby arrondissement and just thought 'shit, i'm the only white person here. this must be how they often feel.'
>>7464624
It's weird when you're a non-white living in an all-white place and you see another non-white person of a similar background and you start thinking whether if you go talk to them will people start thinking that what I'm doing is expected of me? Am I following some sort of societal pressure if I acknowledge this non-white person's presence? If I'm "normal" like everyone else then I should ignore that person like everyone else. But then you overly ignore that other person to the extent that it becomes uncomfortable and feel like you're drawing attention to yourself again. it's weird. i sometimes wish i could live in an all-my ethnicity place or an all-white place. i don't like it when there are people of my race when it's majority white because of these situations
i'm just rambling
>>7464591
I would, and probably still remain enclosed in my home, trying to write, lurking on 4chan and having a smoke every once in a while
>>7464591
That would be a massive shitstorm and I would do it anyway.
>>7464630
is it racist to go up and talk to him?
what are society views again these days?
hmmmm
>>7464662
it would be just like when /lit/ writes a book. someone would keep coming in and burning down the colony but its okay because you can do that and we will rebuild
>>7464666
i don't think it's racist but it's the feeling that people will think racist things if you do go talk to him as in "typical Xs. they're always self-segregating and talking to each other."
>>7464669
i'm sure a sjw would find the racism in it somewhere.
but yeah, definitely something that would hold up your thoughts in public.
but i'm white, so i have no authority on the topic
>>7464673
just to be clear, i don't think white people are automatically racist or anything for this, it's just a combination of self-criticism and being physically distinct from the norm that accentuates that self-critique because there's not a strong group affiliation i can hide myself within
>>7464673
like when you enter a room where there's like two or three chinese/indian/black people, you automatically group them. at least that's what i do. since i figure other people do it, i'm conscious of it being done on me and being reduced to be grouped like that
>>7464685
you're making 100% sense, ace.
but yeah, us white people probably are racist, never feel guilty for thinking it.
>>7464685
lol I self-consciously move away from groups of other people of the same/similar ethnicity just so i can feel ~unique~ and not lumped in with them
but also because white people are retarded. they always confuse me for other black and brown people they know at clubs.
>>7463256
Mexico City is okay, but it took a toll on me.
Boston metro area is underrated. It's te intellectual capital of America (actual intellectuals, not fashion writers and bankers) and has a decent arts scene plus tons of college girls down for a good time.
>>7463453
The Mexico of Pynchon's residence is not the Mexico of today, it's an unlivable shithole
>>7464513
I'd like to see a modicum of info on a claim like this
I'm wondering about where would be best to live forever since I'm graduating.
1) It has to be tropical climate, seriously fuck places with winter, having living in Canada my whole life.
2) Needs to have cafe culture (thinking of just going to Vietnam)
3) Needs to have enough expats that are following their passions and not just backpackers/escapists.
If anyone can give me any info on Morocco Or Senegal that'd b great since I was planning on trying those places out. I was in a miniature city-island called Penang in Malaysia in the summer and it was literally perfect on every account. Hot weather, cool coffee shops, tiny little place where everyone knows each other, motorbikes, the beach, etc. I imagine the other two places I listed to be like this but I've never been
>>7464782
>Morocco
Can't think of Morocco without thinking of Casablanca, of course.
I wonder if you're still able to live grandly there on a modest budget.
>trying to immerse yourself in literary culture
>believing this will help you have anything of worth to say
>implying you won't just write worthless solipsisms
>trying to validate yourself as a writer by living in a commune of writers
>>7457261
Interests have shifted to different things, literature and art aren't the best forms of escapism anymore.
>>7457146
>poverty, love struggles, depression, expressing through your art, knowledge, sex, philosophy... Spending all day writing or painting while listening to Chopin ...
you know, apart from the art and philosophy this just sounds like literally every normalfag ever
>Also, what do you think about living the bohemian-artist life? You know, poverty, love struggles, depression, expressing through your art, knowledge, sex, philosophy... Spending all day writing or painting while listening to Chopin
Funny...This pretty much describes how I live my life, and I'm actually listening to Chopin as we speak. Describing it the way you have sounds kind of faggy, though.
>>7465064
It's what any sane person does. I do this too. Chopin's music puts me in the glow state
>go to paris
>get bombed
>>7464782
There's people doing that in Fez, and in smaller amounts all over Morocco. The problem is, life there turns out not to be so cheap. You'll be a foreigner there, so everyone, and I mean everyone, will jack up their prices just for you, whether you're buying a coffee, trying to rent a flat or catching a taxi. Plus, life is cheap in Morocco if you live like a Moroccan, which is pretty low standard. The only exception might be Chefchaouen and similar small towns, but then there won't be a bubbling artistic community.
>>7463371
>tfw you'll never hide in that subway from alien invasion
>>7457196
>Like this very board for instance, not to overstate its importance but its a place for people with a serious interest in literature
>>7465980
>le self-deprecation meme
Name me a better place, lad. You can't, that's why we're here.
>>7466036
Even if there isn't a better place on the net, it doesn't mean this place is any good.
I don't know if you're just baiting me, but there is no way people actually think that most people on /lit/ have a serious interest in the literature.
>>7466278
I've seen more sincere interest in literature here than I have in university studying literature.
Aside from a few small scale individual interactions I have yet to see a wilful congregation with a more sincere interest in literature than this one.
/lit/ may seem a bit shit in itself, but when you look at the alternatives it's a rather special and passionate place.
>>7461997
>Brussels is where it's at.
I thought it was 50% Muslim.
>>7466516
That and all the other things at odds with the continued existence of European nation states, I can imagine our Jewish friend approving.
>>7460933
Kiev is cheap as fuck, I'm planning on saving a couple grand and living their for a few years
>>7466563
Don't you fear the bear?
>>7466570
If you mean the incoming russians, Nah I would welcome the russian qts
SAN FRANCISCO
>>7466278
>>7466428
I was thinking about this a while ago, and I don't know a place with a better model of interaction
default culturally enforced anonymity, nonpermanence, the layout of posts
you get some bullshit but you dodge a lot of the group mentality/cult of personality/pretension/delayed interaction/such of other places, and when it works it feels a lot more like a discourse than anything I've felt anywhere else online
