Can we talk about Notes from Underground?
The narrator seemed to embody, as a caricature, some of Dostoevsky's own opinions. His spite, though a recurring negative theme in Dostoevsky's work, also embodies Dostoevsky's rejection of the herd instinct. I think what struck me most of all is that the narrator's rejection of reason and so on, in favor of existential affirmation, seemed to basis for Dostoevsky's Christian faith.
>>7456596
I really liked it. I read it at a point in my life when I was lonely and it helped me to understand what I was feeling. That said, I think it's great regardless of whether you relate to the underground man or not.
>>7456658
I think the Underground Man gives existentialism from both perspectives. On one hand, his affirmation in the face of reason is very Christian. On the other, it bears a lot of similarity to the freethinker in hell the Devil tells Ivan about in The Brothers Karamazov.
It's another one of Dostoyevsky's strawmen. Don't read to far into him; he's a hack.
Underground Man is edgy as fuck and pompous for it.
>>7456763
>>7456797
It's supposed to be....the narrator is an austic recluse who thinks real life is a literary novel
>>7456763
>>7456806
Then is it reflective of Dossy?
I feel like it went way over my head for some reason, particularly the opening
I read it only 3 months ago but I can't even remember anything beyond the narrator fucking a qt whore and making a fool of himself at a party, let alone any deeper themes
>>7457028
I think the only character truly a voicebox for Dostoevsky was the Elder Zosima.
The Underground Man expressed many of Dostoevsky's ideas, but he wasn't necessarily a voicebox for Dostoevsky. He was also an embodiment of the negative ideas Dostoevsky explored, especially spite.
>some of Dostoevsky's own opinions
i don't think so
What were the themes, famjams?
>>7456596
Even if he does reject reason, he is very reasonable. At least in his heart. I good example would be his bit in the piano spring. It is not unreasonable to want something different in the end because it is the thing behind the drive to get to the point at which humans would just become completely understood instruments. What do you think, OP?
>>7456763
Care to elaborate, anon?
>>7456797
do you dismiss him for that? He even talks about his vanity.
>>7457254
Take notes!
I don't have the background in philosophy to touch on the existentialism and my thoughts are still convoluted (and I hope writing this out will explore them), but here's what I liked:
The narrator's favorite activity is reading, the movement of his eyes mirror his nervous pacing. He also does it at least once behind a thin wall--when he's looking in on Liza crying after he "insults" her. An anon in here said he thinks life is literature, but I think this is only one of his "golden dreams" and he knows it, that it's just another way he is disconnected. Literature is articulate and beautiful, bit most of all it functions under a certain structure, the opposite of what the narrator sees as a "conscious" individual. There's lots of imagery pointing to this idea: the presence of light in the story and how it acts as a way to reveal the disappointing reality. Like when the candles don't come out at dinner until when Zverkov, Simonov, Rakitin, and the other guy whose name I forget show up and the dinner is just awkward until they separate themselves from the narrator while he paces. If we continue with the pacing/reading comparison, he is sort of shifting back to life as literature. I think it is also present in his decision to try to duel Zverkov, a classic theme in romantic literature that sort of ties up plots, triumph over good and bad, etc. Of course he doesn't even get there in time and ends up seeing Liza and picking her out for her wretchedness. Light plays a role here too after he sleeps with her and he communicates some of his idealism to her in the darkness, indirectly comparing her to a child, which is a biblical theme. She would not really communicate with him while she could see him. I think this directly parallels the line "In my soul I have never been a coward, though I constantly turned coward in reality". When he sleeps with her, it is behind a thin wall. There's this idealism behind what he does that is incompatible with the outside world. It's like he releases it and then it just bounces off the walls and he can't handle it until he settles into a corner. The theme is present in Apollon, his manservant, too. Apollon is obviously a play on Apollo, he lives in the narrator's apartment behind a partition, is learning to read from Christian canon, and won't beg to be paid, will only only stare daggers at the narrator.
>>7457392
And 2/2
Like the narrator's idealism, Apollon is a servant that is not functioning as he should be or as the narrator understands he should be, and he's doing it in reaction to the narrator's reaction to what he perceives as the lack of direction in reality. The narrator is stuck in the tension caused by the incompatibility of reality and idealism/romanticism. He is so stuck here that he wants to pull others down with him, like when he tries to pay Liza in the end after tells him she wants to leave the brothel and he reveals all of his thoughts and bile to her only to have her console him. He outs himself as one of the causes for this incompatibility, just so because he sees through the crystal palaces, the golden dreams, all of the partitions with holes in them. He wants to make people like Zverkov see past the walls they're folding before, past their pomp and arrogance, their idiocy. He says only a fool would every try to do anything and then goes on to say "Oh gentlemen, perhaps I really regard myself as an intelligent man only because throughout my life I've never been able to start or finish anything. Liza is trying to start/finish something, and in his fucked up way the narrator is trying to save her from it. But he only manages to hurt her. Also by not taking the money, I feel like she decides to act. Which he flies after her for. The narrator keeps implying that he is the most morally conscious person in the story, but when he expresses himself to Liza and she consoles him because she is already so downtrodden, she is putting herself in a position as the morally superior person. My more cynical tendency is to think that he gives her the money to put her back down, to show her the reality. Which is horrible and sort of sweet of him, more horrible because of how he expressed his idealism to her in the dark. And then turned around and did the opposite. Though that's just him bouncing off of a wall instead of folding before it, right? And when she leaves the money at the door and he chases after her, sometimes I think it's because he just wants to do the same cycle over again. Other times I think it's because he saw some hope that the sort of romanticism he focuses so much on in his own soul is actually out in the world in another soul.
There are other parallels too: the mouse behind the wall and the revenge it takes on the work but mostly itself under all its fatal slops, the rejection of the beautiful and sublime with the example of the ruby nose (really loved that actually) and so on. I found Liza to be very compelling and brave. The narrator too, but he was so buried by everything. I need to organize my thoughts more though.
>>7457392
>>7457396
Good analysis.
I don't think you need to have a background in philosophy to understand it at all. Existentialism is very accessible and simple, and, I would say, better communicated through fiction than standard philosophical writing. Sartre and Camus wrote much better when they weren't trying to overexplain their simple ideas, and instead showed the beauty and efficacy of the ideas through characters.
>>7457338
i read it like a week ago and already forgot -- it wasn't thgat memorabl/good e a book
Did anyone else feel like it was a bit of a dry run for Crime and Punishment? The Underground Man reminded me of Raskolnikov in many ways.
>>7457789
Myth of Sisyphus was so overwrought and pointlessly complicated imo, there was no need for the language he (or the translator; might've been more his fault than Camus') used. Really turned me off of his essays.
Still haven't read The Stranger, tho
>>7456658
I can't agree with this more, I read my twisted world about a week after it first came available on the internet and it just left me kind of angry with everything. Honestly it did a lot of damage to my psyche at the time and i just kind of felt depressed for a month or so after (I was pretty beta at this point so it all resonated with me).
Either way, at some point i picked up notes from the underground (in audio book form) and it just set me strait. I'm not sure if it was because of the actual writing of the main character or because of the fear it evoked in me of living a life driven nothing by anger. Now i recommend this book to everyone, it changed my life in a way that any kind of self help never could.
>>7457284
>I think the only character truly a voicebox for Dostoevsky was the Elder Zosima.
this
>>7457470
Thanks, I need to put more work into it.
I would say there needs to be some sort of emotional connection to the material or the way it is presented. It helps me retain.
I haven't read either of them, do you recommend them?
>>7456754
>freethinker in hell the Devil tells Ivan about in The Brothers Karamazov.
do you have a page number for that, its been a while sense I've read the book but I vaguely remember the section and want to reread it.
>>7458125
Yeah at least read The Stranger and No Exit. Both ate short and enjoyable. Nausea and The Plague are supposedly very good as well, but I haven't read them so I don't know.
If you want to read actual philosophy on the topic, I suggest Nietzsche, Heidegger, and Kierkegaard instead.
>>7457511
Ah, no. There are common themes, but a significant different: Raskolnikov is driven by the exact same impulse as the Underground Man (to do what is spitefully irrational simply to validate his individuality), but he dresses it up to be compatible with the exact sort of thinking the Underground Man detests--Raskolnikov is in denial. the Underground Man is not.
>>7458820
I don't know the page number, but it is in the chapter, "The Devil".
