Just gave up on this. I made it 80 pages in and thought it was a bit of garbage. I had the occasional chuckle, but overall it's just lists, not even the good, Pynchon-ey type, but just Ellis jerking off with one hand while typing out high-class catalogs with the other. Bland characters which aren't enjoyable in reality let alone a novel, clubbing with friends which reminds me of teenage benders and the occasional seeping through of his psycho-persona. I know I hadn't read any of the violent scenes, but fuck it, there should be some substance, plus I've seen the film, so I get the gist.
Overall, I felt like I wadding through mud to get through it. If it was maybe 200 pages I would've stuck with it, but fuck hanging around for another 320 pages of that shit.
So: tell me if I'm wrong, right, whatever. Opinions please.
>>7418983
the point is the grandioise, overdone nature of everything about the guy. He's a rich sack of shit and showing you how silly and ridiculous that life is IS the point
you want opinions or your opinion?
wtf
Any criticism of the book is met with "that's the point".
It is here Ellis attempts to borrow the nickname "career move" which had later been given to his late friend, Saint Dave.
>>7418985
But surely he could've gotten that across in a more direct, less overdone manner? If it was such a simple point, he could've portrayed it in a short story, perhaps.
Just started it.... then stopped to read something else... I only got to the part where they're eating sushi.... I don't care about designer clothes descriptions.. will try to continue at some point but meh
>>7418996
> If it was such a simple point, he could've portrayed it in a short story, perhaps.
high school detected
reported
>>7418989
I've been reading about his comments on Wallace, and about his new podcast lifestyle. Sounds like a bit of a jack-off. I kept thinking while reading: "The author has probably lived this kind of lifestyle to know all these useless descriptive terms for expensive clothing, home-ware, food, furniture, etc."
>>7418996
you can literally reduce any text to "but why not more direct??"
The Inferno could easily be less than 50 pages, but that's not the point
>>7419005
Maybe if I was still in high-school I might have enjoyed it.
>>7419010
I never give up on reading a book if I've started, and length is never a problem. But the prose is all the same. 'More direct' applies here because it's repetitive, aside from that I love many writers who can be considered overindulgent.
>>7418983
just watch the movie instead
it has the doubles man
>>7419020
seen it a while ago, meme-worthy.
>>7419008
>"The author has probably lived this kind of lifestyle to know all these useless descriptive terms for expensive clothing, home-ware, food, furniture, etc."
he hasn't, they're a distinctly outsider perspective on what BET thinks being a rich east-coaster is like and it shows throughout. what you're picking up on is that a lot of it (i.e yuppieness) has to be literalized, otherwise you end up with henry james level stuff and that would miss the point. the idea that you need to have lived something in order to write about it accurately is hilarious, by the way.
you'd probably be correct if you were talking about less than zero, though.
>>7419015
did you think not enjoying a shitty bet book was what made me think you're a child and not your idiotic, reductive ideas literature? because i was really clear about it.
>>7419037
He must have spent more time researching high-life products than thinking about the actual writing of a decent book.
>>7419043
>high school detected
>reported
> really clear about it.
Four words, nice direct way of getting your point across, guy. Maybe you should rewrite AP.
>and not your idiotic, reductive ideas literature?
check what you type before stating you're being "really clear about it."
>>7419044
>wah a writer knows words
i would agree that bet wrote one decent book and it wasn't american psycho, but you sound retarded
>>7419061
Tell me your reasoning for not liking AP then.
>>7419055
that was perfectly clear. i quoted a stupid thing you said and called you a child. it's not my fault you can't understand context, take it up with your english teacher. it's not an enormous conceptual leap to imagine that the thing i quoted has to do with the insult following it.
What are some nice Novels about degeneracy and violence?
>>7419066
It's a stupid thing to say that a rather simple idea stretched out over a 400 page novel might have worked better as a short story? Righto mate. I'll discontinue discussion of the topic and revert to the more intelligent discussions that frequently occur on this board immediately. Anything else?
>>7419008
>and about his new podcast lifestyle
Oh wow, Brett sounds like some old Jewish smoker. Like some cross between Gilbert Gottfried and Nardwuar
>>7419064
it's just flat. bet writes it dull, which is ok but he forgoes any effort in the prose to stay in character, and the atmosphere is going for is one he doesn't quite understand (he's not very familiar with insider investment banking culture, only the outward facing part) and it makes the setting seem vague, plus it's covered ground to which he brings nothing new or interesting to, and the violence makes you think he's going to challenge his characters but he pussies out at the end. he was basically trying to write cosmopolis but he's not good enough.
>>7419082
>It's a stupid thing to say that a rather simple idea stretched out over a 400 page novel might have worked better as a short story?
yes. in fact it's the kind of drivel a high schooler would say. wait a second, haven't i had this exchange before?
OP isn't wrong. I cherish the book despite the redundant catalogues and what not. Yes, that IS the point but it definitely wears you the fuck out. Bret says all he has to say about Patrick Bateman within 250 pages. Yet I keep going because I enjoy the characters and the situations they get in. What I like about it is that its a simulator of this dudes fucked up mentality. It's just so manic it excites me as opposed to boring me. Except for that one chapter with Scott and Ann. That one was really boring.
Also to the dude saying it's Brett's "outsider perspective". It's not. Brett writes his books about where he is in life. Hence why Less Than Zero is about being a young ass privileged kid, Rules of Attraction is about being in college, AP is about being a young adult in New York, Glamorama is about being in the fast lane (recall Brett's "brat pack"), and Lunar Park is about midlife crises. At that point in his life he was living like Patrick Bateman. Brett initially stated that Patrick was based off of his stepfather, but eventually recanted that and admitted that he molded Patrick off himself.
I'm about 180 pages into this at the moment, and I find it really interesting so far. It's entertaining and it has a purpose. Great satire. Also, 400 pages really isn't that long.
>>7419103
400 pages can be too way too long or not long enough. It all depends on the author.
>>7419037
>the idea that you need to have lived something in order to write about it accurately is hilarious, by the way.
It's also correct, you kek bitch
>>7419102
>Also to the dude saying it's Brett's "outsider perspective". It's not. Brett writes his books about where he is in life. Hence why Less Than Zero is about being a young ass privileged kid, Rules of Attraction is about being in college, AP is about being a young adult in New York
by outside perspective i meant it's definitely not a lifestyle he led himself. i'm almost certain he had a friend who was an investment banker, because the nuggets of authenticity in the character's interactions (see: the restaurants, dick measuring over business cards or suits) are the kind of thing you can picture telling someone about, but it's not written as a confessional. patrick bateman's neuroses are not that encompassing. he probably partied a lot with investment bankers, though.
The King of Pomo's greatest achievement. What did you plan on getting out of it? The writing is amazing, the characters are hilarious, if anything, that first chapter is amazing. As a kid I saw the Les Mis version of NYC and as an adult I've worked in finance, so I'm biased. The audiobook gave me a new appreciation, too. It really is fucking amazing and fucking hilarious.
>>7419118
of course it is buddy, your life is Unique and no one truly understands You but yourself :)
>>7419120
Oh true. He wasn't a part of the Wall Street crew or anything, he just lived this sort of airless upper class existence that he became really critical of.
>>7419123
You know, I've noticed that the people who tend to appreciate it the most are people who identify to some degree with it. Like on Goodreads, usually the people who hate it just think of it as rich assholes being rich assholes but the people who really love it come from the same places of the characters, claiming that he nails his portrayal of those lives. Same goes for Less Than Zero.
>>7419070
The argument going on in this thread
>>7419132
>he just lived this sort of airless upper class existence that he became really critical of.
that was my entire problem with it, he wasn't critical. he was vaguely irritated by it. he was bored of it. but at no point did he think, hey maybe I should do more than describe the vacuousness of the lifestyle.
>>7419127
not parent but u r a tardbonzo bean. eheh
>>7419137
critical enough*
>>7419139
this xD
/thread
>>7419118
OP here, I partially agree with you. Fiction lends itself to making up shit with perhaps a little research behind you. Sometimes it falls flat, feeling false, other times it works.
>>7419105
Agreed, but unless things switched up a bit, I wasn't keen on lingering.
>>7419137
See, if you're OP then you didn't get far enough. It's not entirely explicit because its from the point of view of someone so entirely meshed up in this life that they don't see the toxicity of it, so of course you're not going to have the narrator turn towards the reader and say "now, isn't this just the worst?" The reader is meant to read it and go "wow, this is the worst" without having to be told that. But if you kept reading, later on in the book the unhappiness of the characters becomes increasingly apparent, what with Patrick just randomly confessing to misery and loneliness and how if he was to one day disappear, no one would care. Things like that.
Also, I mean come on.
"I don't see why you don't just quit. You hate your job anyways."
"BECAUSE I WANT TO FIT IN"
It's not a subtle book.
The movie is better anyways because it emphasizes the message while eliminating the fat (often extremely entertaining fat, but fat nonetheless).
>>7419123
>What did you plan on getting out of it?
Whatever the author intended for me to get out of it. Does he have more to say aside from satirizing the 80's, the high-flyer lifestyle, desensitized people etc.
I was hoping someone would say "Just stick with it, you're hardly a quarter through, it picks up." but is it simply that if I didn't like the start I probably wouldn't like the rest? In which way does it develop throughout?
>>7419132
It's clear he didn't work in finance. It would have added another painful layer to the novel. I read it at uni and thought it was alternatively boring and nerve-rackingly violent. Then after going through the hell of finance, I re-read it and, after having read what Ellis had to say about it, found it to be roll on the floor fartingly funny. Which is the point. The violence, if you pay attention, is silly bullshit over the top crap that some douchebag liar is telling us to impress us. Sure the whole thing has the lenticular pomo thing going for it, but holy fuck, it's obviously supposed to be a comedy. I have to return some videotapes? The Body Double panic attack?
>>7419137
How is that itself not interesting? I disagree that it's just mild irritation. I've been close to the segment of society he describes, and all the little things add up to something really disgusting, which is also kinda the point of the book.
>>7419161
The only way that it develops is that Patrick becomes increasingly crazy and starts suffering from hallucinations and the narrative becomes increasingly disjointed. Like there's one chapter thats merely a paragraph where he describes having a collection of vaginas in his gym locker from women he's attacked.
>>7419163
It's fucking hilarious I know. Crazy how people don't see it.
"THERES MIDGETS IN THERE ABOUT TO SING O TANNENBAU! DO YOU KNOW HOW SCARY THAT IS? ELVES HARMONIZING?!"
However, I disagree with your notion that the violence is unimportant, if that is what you're getting at. Its very crucial to two of the biggest themes of the novel: misogyny and greed.
>>7419158
i think we have different understanding of critical. i mean it in a marx-y way, not just a 'hey isn't this kind of a bummer lol'.
>>7419181
Fair.
>>7419174
oh it is interesting, sure, but less so than bright lights big city or whatever other precursors you can think of. i was kind of disappointed by the hype, i thought it would be something new. also bet isn't as good as he thinks, so that probably makes me less inclined to be charitable.
I'm in the minority on this, but IMO The Rules of Attraction is infinitely better
American Psycho is an attempt at criticizing the corporate world of the Reagan era - something Ellis clearly didn't have much experience with, given how shallow his analysis is
The Rules of Attraction is about the hollow, self-destructive existence of privileged college kids - something Ellis clearly knew a lot about, given how perceptive, insightful, funny, intimate, and soul-numbing/affecting it is
>>7419192
Fuck yeah dudes, Rules of Attraction is so underrated my dude. It's just so god damn entertaining. Everytime I pick it up from the very first page I'm hooked. However, once you know who (I forgot how spoilers work fuck) get together and start dating, it hits a slump. The way he shows how these kids hedonism has destroyed their ability to really connect with each other just hurts.
However, I feel like there is way more going on in American Psycho than just Bret making fun of bankers. He's making fun of men as a whole. He's explicitly stated its a comedy about men.
The best aspects of the movie aren't even in the book. That was a hell of a letdown. OP, if you can tough it out longer, you'll miss all the details about high fashion and fancy meals when the torture scenes take over and get pretty fucking dark.
>>7419161
Patrick develops. He becomes more human actually. More insane too.
Paying attention to how well Ellis writes helped me. He does minimalism perfectly. Go back and read that first chapter where his friend lists how shitty everything is, it's really great.
If you're having trouble/getting too bored with it, grab the audiobook. It's so fucking funny. It's read by Nick the dockworker from The Wire, if that means anything to you.
Also, the Jean/Patrick thing evolves, the Less Than Zero vibe kicks in towards the endish in the Hamptons.
The genius is in the joke and the ridiculously great writing.
>>7419179
The Uzi thing was particularly bizarre. Regarding the violence, I didn't mean it wasn't unimportant, just that it's part of the joke—which doesn't take away from the hypermasculinity symbolism. It means the same thing whether he's doing it or lying about doing it.
The midget thing was hilarious. So was the Chinese food thing. And everything else that comes to mind about the novel.
>>7419192
AP is definitely superior. But RoA is great. Fuck Less Than Zero.
>>7419234
Keep in mind that Ellis is a fag. I mean that lovingly. Where would it go?
"On my way over to Park Avenue to find a cab I pass an ugly, homeless bum—a member of the genetic underclass—and when he softly pleads for change, for “anything,” I notice the Barnes & Noble book bag that sits next to him on the steps of the church he’s begging on and I can’t help but smirk, out loud, “Oh right, like you read…,” and then, in the back of the cab on the way across town to my apartment, I imagine running around Central Park on a cool spring afternoon with Jean, laughing, holding hands. We buy balloons, we let them go."
I don't think it's a stretch to say that Ellis places every single thing where it is with purpose. That just goes w/minimalism. So what does that quote mean?I felt something.So what is erasing that fantasy from his world?
>solace in love
You'll figure that out on yr own.Ellis has it right.
It's as if Patrick's insanity pulls off the veil from the clockwork fever dream that we pretend is real life.
>>7419251
Why is Less Than Zero great? Talk me into it.
>>7419270
>So what is erasing that fantasy from his world?
The way I see it, Patrick's "disintegration" as he calls it erased it. He was much more sane at that point in the novel. By the end he's just so far gone he's past rescue.
>It's as if Patrick's insanity pulls off the veil from the clockwork fever dream that we pretend is real life.
I feel it puts on another veil as opposed to removing it.
>>7419275
To me, it's a mood novel. From the get go it just creates this anhedonic atmosphere (I speculate this is one of the reasons David Foster Wallace loved it so much) and maintains it with perfectly minimal writing that depicts the hollowness of the characters lives alongside the faults of emotional immaturity. One of the things I feel is underappreciated in this book is its depiction of the characters as TEENS. They're reverse Holden Caulfields. People who want nothing more than to grow up, so they push themselves harder and harder until they crack or get themselves into situations that they realize they can't handle because they're just kids. Not only that, but he nails classic "teen issues" like peer pressure and the compromise of values for the purpose of fitting in. See how Clay doesn't intervene whenever he sees something he abhors. You could argue he doesn't care, but his reaction is visceral and whenever challenged by his peers he just subsides.
>>7419290
>Your Less Than Zero point
Ok, yr right, those are good points. I guess it bothers me that Ellis was so young and was just doing journalism. But I can't deny those facets. They ARE there. They do function the way you laid them out. Salinger was 32 when Catcher was published & I think you can feel the layers in that book. Layers that just aren't in LTZ, which is journalism, more or less—Ellis says this himself.
>disintegration
Ok. I meant, why does that happen?
>puts on another veil
A veil on what? This whole thing, inanimate matter animated and babbling signals at each other, it's fucking insane. So he's getting away from that?
>>7419344
>why does that happen?
Well that depends on how you interpret the novel. If you go with "Patrick is just inherently a fucked up person" (possibly supported by his confession of raping a housemaid at the age of fourteen and how he has a cousin who raped and bit the ear off a young woman, implying that it might be something that just runs in his family [although then that leaves the question of why Sean Bateman is a normal person if it runs in the family]), then thats why it happens.
If you go with "the society is so fucked up it broke him down and drove him to insanity" (the one I favor), well then thats why. The coldness of the world he chose to inhabit has left him an emotionally destitute individual incapable of actually caring for Jean. (Or perhaps, like Timothy Price, he is a closeted homosexual)
By the veil thing I meant that..lets say that the other characters of the book see their lives through rose colored glasses. Patrick also wears rose colored glasses, but the lenses on his are cracked and shattered significantly. He still seems to buy into all the bullshit and participates willingly, but his perceptions of things are definitely offset compared to the people around him.
>>7419376
You think society turned him into what he is, despite the evidence it's genetic? (Sean wouldn't necessarily inherit the same personality traits) But interestingly, he CAN function in society, which is probably the point, come to think of it. Why? Capitalism. He can pay women to allow him to abuse them. His history/position in society creates a draw to characters like Bethany & the other women he rapes/abuses/murders/or lies about doing so to.
I have to think about the rose colored glasses thing. Price certainly doesn't have them, hilariously. And Patrick aspires to be like Price.
Also, as a side note, you know who else just wanted to... fit. in...? Wallace—just watch Ellis's next novel feature a Wallace stand-in trying to fake sincerity to awful consequences.You heard it here first.
>>7419401
I misconstrued my own point of view. I think it's a bit of both columns A and B. I think Patrick is inherently a disturbed person but the society he inhibits enables his disorders. His attack on Paul Owen, for instance, is born out of Paul wounding his male ego. His ego is so important to him because his sense of values and worth which govern his life are definitely societally conditioned. You don't become that obsessed with business cards, reservations at Dorsia, and the clothes that people wear as the result of hereditary mental illness entirely. At some point you have to learn from someone that these things have the values that he believes they do.
Speaking of Wallace, in one of his essays (I believe its "The Big Red Son") he mentions how he believes that pornography can condition a male to find pleasure in the degradation of women. Ellis obviously didn't have David's view in mind, but I think thats the real meaning behind the violence of the novel. Note Patrick's obsession with pornography and how he has to keep upping the ante with his violence to receive his satisfaction in the same way that pretty much any male above the age of eighteen finds it difficult to masturbate to softcore pornography like they did in their youth. It's all about when pornography is no longer enough. Reminds me of what J.G. Ballard tried to do with Crash (it really reminds me of American Psycho but with car crashes instead of murder and without any of the comedy).
>>7419344
>Ellis says this himself
link pls.
i remember ellis saying it wasn't just journalism but i don't remember where i read that so idk
the fact that salinger wrote catcher when he was 32 makes me like it less desu. salinger weirds me out so much, like a beta charles manson.
i do think less than zero is book that if it catches you at the right age will seem better than it may actually be because of the teenager angle. i read less than zero when i was 17, and i grew up in los angeles like the characters in the book so i admit i'm not the most impartial about it.
but even if you accept it as journalism, does that lower the novel's value? joan didion is basically just a prose stylist playing journalist, so is it bad if in less than zero ellis is just a journalist playing prose stylist? he like didion does both very well.
>>7419456
Not him but
>the fact that salinger wrote catcher when he was 32 makes me like it less
The way I see it, LTZ was written about these feelings in the heat of the moment, the eye of the storm. Catcher, with the aid of the passing of time and wisdom accrued by age, is a more thoughtful meditation on teen angst.
>i do think less than zero is book that if it catches you at the right age will seem better than it may actually be because of the teenager angle
If I had a dollar for every time I heard that said about Catcher
Also, don't forget Capote. I mean, In Cold Blood was journalism too and it was so good.
>>7419456
He says Didion is his one of his inspirations, speaks about Wallace, AND speaks to the journalism thing all in the David Shields episode of his podcast from 9/14/15.
>>7419442
>learn from someone
Or, more simply, those things are expressions of power, and Patrick's world is a quicksand pit of impotence that he's struggling against. We aren't blank slates programmed by society.
The violence isn't really normal sexual violence. Girls will ask you to smack them across the face. BDSM is natural. Putting yr arm down someone's throat isn't.
>>7419442
>in the same way that pretty much any male above the age of eighteen finds it difficult to masturbate to softcore pornography like they did in their youth
lol wut
>>7419488
>BDSM is natural. Putting yr arm down someone's throat isn't.
Obviously, but I think that Bret was trying to say something about becoming desensitized. I'd also argue that it was sexual violence since it would usually (in the cases of the women murders) follow sex.
>>7419507
Maybe my friends group plus a handful of internet conversations is too small a sample size, but pornography has to be increasingly dirty to get that same sort of response that, say, a playboy nude had when we were thirteen.
Hey guys.
So I ordered my copy a few weeks ago, and got it in the mail today. I saw a picture that an anon posted of his copy that he'd recently bought, this was just under two weeks ago I think.
Now, his spine cover was very different to mine, though they're both by the same publisher and the front cover is the same.
Is there a different one for different countries or is mine just an older/newer version? I ordered my copy from Amazon.
>>7419547
Whats the front cover look like
>>7419547
>Is there a different one for different countries or is mine just an older/newer version?
maybe re all of those possibilities
>>7419571
I'm guessing newer. I don't remember that spine but I read an older copy.
>>7419580
Ah, okay. Thanks anon.
Was kind of hoping I'd get the other spine, it looked really nice.
>>7419082
yooo just seconding in here if you see this mr. Anonymous that, yes, this is a stupid thing to say. To connote simplicity and complexity with length is utilitarian, pedestrian, stupid
>>7418983
>plus I've seen the film, so I get the gist.
Lol no.
>>7419953
>films are inferior to books amirite guiz? XDDD
>>7418983
it reads like terrible fanfiction. shadow the hedgehog-tier
>>7419955
stop shitposting
>>7419959
What is it fanfiction of?
>>7418983
You're out of your gord fella. The book is infinitely more brutal and dark than the film. Specifically because your visualizing it yourself, not being spoon fed how things look and felt like a baby eating applesauce.
Always a thread where people still don't get American Psycho. Plebians, the lot of you
The /lit/ top 100 list is not about books with the most intrinsic value per page that is to be extracted by the reader. It's rather a structured network of opinions and associations compressed into numbers, it's a promise that you statistically will enjoy the book,alongside the connotated right to partake in the literary dialogue.
It's comforting to giving structure to your life and assigning binary signs of quality to the media you consume, but force your numbers on others. What really matters is that you did trade effort and hours of your life for what the book has to offer and now you have to find place and purpose for that informationin your life.
Postulating that AP is shit is beyond your power, if you personally failed to find place in your life for what it had to offer. you may say it's not entertaining, or that it succeded at getting it's point across, all is subjective
Critics like Bloom and Reich-Ranicki are creating artificial narratives of what is canon and what is shit, tarnishing genuine efforts with associations that emerged in their very own inner systems of contexts and acquired beliefs
>>7419982
Catcher in the Rye
>>7420401
Is this sincere?
>>7418983
>on /lit/
>satisfied with "gist"
>... from the film
>>7418985
>it's supposed to be shit. thats what makes it good
ok senpai
the movie was better. and it was made by awoman
