I used to think /lit/ was exaggerating how autistic and metaphysically braindead STEMfags are, and then I read this post by Silicon Valley entrepreneur and venture capitalist Paul Graham, who shall be permanently confirmed to be a complete dumbfuck.
http://www.paulgraham.com/philosophy.html
>philosophy sucks because Aristotle was wrong about things
>philosophy is just messing around with language
>Wittgenstein saved philosophy
>I took philosophy classes in college, so I know what I'm talking about
I just finished the PI and I've never felt more at peace in my life.
STEMfags are joyless dullards, water is wet
>>7388374
Ever consider that STEMfags might just understand it better because they think more clearer?
>>7388458
I'm going to go with "no".
>>7388387
Private Investigation?
>>7388458
>think more clearer
You know where to go, dilettante.
>implying philosophy has added as much value to society as the 'STEMfags' who invented the machine you're bitching on
>>7388458
>more clearer
>>7388470
Ahh shit. You want a nigga to lay some Heidegger on you?
>>7388458
>more clearer
>>7388387
Why? All I got from that book is that humans invented language to perform tasks.
>>7388482
Do it, faggot
>>7388470
>implying the rediscovery of classical philosophical texts didn't lay the groundwork for scientific rationalism in the renaissance and enlightenment
Go back to reddit
>>7388470
>le this field is better than that one maymay xD
It's always funny that people who care about the practicality or quality of one field over another usually are pseuds who know relatively little about the field they're defending.
>>7388510
Read Paul Graham's post explaining philosophy to /lit/ and you will know everything you ever wanted to know about STEMfags.
>>7388374
>>philosophy is just messing around with language
He's right though. The entire free will debate is basically faggots arguing over definitions.
>free will don't real!
>no, free will means I can think and choose
Wow, what a breakthrough.
>>7388518
>there are still people in 2015 who can't get over the fact that God's omnipotence doesn't preclude you from having free will
Even kids understand that YOU have free will regardless of what God knows or doesn't know about you.
>>7388521
look fag, I didn't bring up god anywhere in my post. if you ask most people whether they can think and choose, they would say yes, hence they have free will by your dumbass definition. I'm mocking philosophers for thinking they're insightful because they're not
Scientists are explorers. Philosophers are just tourists.
>>7388527
>hence they have free will by your dumbass definition
Q.E.D.
>>7388505
Philosophy is a powerful force, and it can be practical. The thing is that most modern philosophers just feed off grants and indulge in their hobby and expect people to respect their work. But it's their responsibility to go out and make people see value in it. Socrates would got out into the street and confront peoples beliefs. At least the "STEMfags" are doing something. Let's be honest even if they do think highly of themselves, they kind of have the right.
>>7388510
honestly I think a lot of folk are intimidated. In my scholastic experience science and math classes are much more difficult than LA and history classes. As such STEM majors do get more technical education and do become smarter in certain ways that are easier to measure and often more applicable in work situationsThis can lead to willful ignorance or arrogance, such as shown by the man OP is talking about, but I don't think STEM folk are any more or less guilty of this. I do believe they (I'd say we, but I've only recently started on this track) are generally less selfconcious about their choice of major. An English major may read about incredible things, but STEM majors more often get to do or be directly involved in those things. While I do read as a hobby and want to write later in life, I think I will have a more useful and interesting life if I study math and science and get a job in the field I want.
>>7388374
>admits in the very first paragraph that he took philosophy classes to be edgy
Ah, you see, the problem is not that this man is in STEM--it's that this man is retarded.
>>7388470
You mean the machine that was conceived through...philosophy...?
Read some analytics you fucking philistine
>>7388538
Only if you acknowledge their vocation to be more worthwhile.
Philosophy just isn't rational. It's appeals to the emotion, like art.
>>7388510
STEM is vocational training at worst and, at best, let's us understand reality at a level so general to not really be insightful to our lived experience of it. Knowing why the universe works mechanistically doesn't help me appreciate a beautiful thing, give me emotional catharsis or give me metaphors to empathize with people, whereas humanities has developed the means to do that for as long as people have told stories, sang songs, painted pictures, etc. Many STEM students appear numb to this distinction and even arrogant in their comfort with it, and our indulgence and distraction loving consumer culture is ready to give them all the cultural authority they ask for in exchange for more trinkets.
Basically it's just a reaction to autists on the internet, with a few other threads in the fabric.
>>7388543
It was contrived by an autistic homo who was sick of having to build a new machine every time he wanted to do something new.
>>7388539
>he didn't double major in math and philosophy
>>7388543
nietzsche destroyed analytic philosophy. philosophy basically boils down to opinions and aesthetics. it's why no one takes it seriously anymore.
>>7388374
/lit/ - literature
>>7388548
Jesus christ. This weird notion that philosophical thought is secluded somewhere in the 1500s is so bizarre.
"Paul Graham is a massive faggot" isn't an uncommon opinion among STEM people.
>>7388539
> An English major may read about incredible things, but STEM majors more often get to do or be directly involved in those things.
You have to be undergrad. I can't wait for you to get a job so that you can see how the world actually works. Or worse, become a grad student. You're in for a very rude awakening, regardless of whatever science black man or whoever's dick you're on have sold you.
>>7388550
Return to your cave, then. The machine in front of you that's making the fundamental forces of the universe its bitch for your pleasure is clearly interfering with your ability to appreciate beauty.
>>7388550
I don't think you've actually met people in those fealds and if you can't appreciate the underlying beauty of how the universe works, of how math is consise yet undefined at times, how complex physics is, then how can you really appreciate the beauty of everything from humans to the work they produce? It's like a baby who thinks that the cover of a book is pretty and all those letters look cool, but doesn't actually know the meaning of everything that's written inside it.
I've seen lots of people in humanities who have no appreciation for their feald, just went there cause it's easier to get a diploma. Seen the same thing with people in engineering. But what's the difference is that I do meet people in SMET who have both understanding of the material world around them, the rules by which we define it AND the human heart and its creations. I almost never meet people like that in humanities.
Any fellow Common Lispers here?
>>7388567
At least try to not shit from your mouth when you speak. I work in STEM dumbass; my speech wasn't anti-STEM. But you're deluded if you think learning about how a computer works is telling you anything interesting about what it means to be a person.
ffs I don't think anyone but a small handful of organization men would give a flipping fuck about computers if not the fact that they turned out to be useful for things that have humanities at their root.
>>7388543
But what are philosophers doing now for humanity? Computers and the internet are allowing more and more people to have access to the works of greatest philosophers. And the works of engineers and scientists are helping in crafting an environment where people have more time to indulge in it. What are modern philosphers doing that brings value to their work? Having a hobby is fine but expecting for people to respect you for it and pay you money for having one, not so much.
>>7388565
What has been your experience? You are right, I am an undergrad. However, judging from the lives of people I've met, the ones who studied math and science generally have more interesting sounding lives.
>>7388588
>And the works of engineers and scientists are helping in crafting an environment where people have more time to indulge in it.
>implying that's a good thing
The Luther Bible and the printing press were the greatest mistakes in all of history.
>>7388387
>2015
>PI instead of Tractatus
topkek
>>7388592
Well, there are some negative parts for it. For example the fact that people are able to voice shitty opinions like that for anybody to see.
>>7388594
How can I flip you off on here?
>>7388574
muh nigga
>>7388573
Nigga your post is basically jibberish. You aren't even arguing in my direction.
> if you can't appreciate the underlying beauty of how the universe works, of how math is consise yet undefined at times, how complex physics is, then how can you really appreciate the beauty of everything from humans to the work they produce
That is the dumbest argument I've head in a long time.
>appreciate the underlying beauty of how the universe works
The sorta beauty science shows you has as much in common with what's useful in the humanities as a computer has with a conversation. I'd recommend some you read some aesthetics if you think that makes any sense desu.
>I almost never meet people like that in humanities.
This I'd agree with, but you seem to be attributing it to some imagined superiority of the intellectual character of STEM people when really you're probably just misattributing the effects of the educational system. Surprise surprise; people are more likely to be willing to learn about the humanities for personal enrichment than STEM. Totally couldn't be because STEM education is basically self-inflicted autism that requires years of dedication and is likely only pursued owing to future monetary reward, and that humanities are usually seen as personally enriching seeing as they use the language you already think about your experience with. Quit complimenting yourself, asshole.
Why do you never hear about maths and theoretical computer science people doing this autistic shit? It's always the STE.
>>7388374
What the fuck has he done? I know he wrote some unmaintanable spaghetti code in a research language for yahoo and likes to brag about it like he's the second coming of christ but what else has he DONE?
>>7388607
That's because Mathbros are on our side.
>>7388529
epic
>>7388607
...eh, math people are basically the artfags of the STEM world. It's not even surprising; their subject is basically just a really rigorous, systematic form of art desu.
he's basically right. scientists and engineer build and understand the world while philosophers argue over semantics.
>>7388374
I like how Donald Knuth manages to espouse a philosophy a hundred times more thought out than this guy but edgy teenagers still give him shit for being a theist when the alternative is just "hey hey, philosophy is dumb, I don't have to prove anything, lol explorers, tourists, etc".
>>7388591
Almost everyone who works in STEM is an office drone. It's Office Space irl for almost everyone in that field. The subject matter may occasionally be interesting but the work, by the time most STEM workers touch it, is exactly as boring as you'd think office drone work usually is.
>>7388621
I remember someone on his ama on reddit said he "could never respect him, despite his accomplishments, because he was a christian", he just responded with "That's alright" I wish I had saved it.
Like STEMfags are willing to shit on a man who has made huge achievements for science and mathematics because he doesn't conform to their secular materialist world view.
>>7388606
>That is the dumbest argument I've head in a long time.
Why?
>The sorta beauty science shows you has as much in common with what's useful in the humanities as a computer has with a conversation
Just look over what you wrote. I know, you know it's not true.
>Totally couldn't be because STEM education is basically self-inflicted autism that requires years of dedication and is likely only pursued owing to future monetary reward, and that humanities are usually seen as personally enriching seeing as they use the language you already think about your experience with. Quit complimenting yourself, asshole.
Yeah, you went full retard on this part. Didn't you?
>>7388631
Not even trying to defend STEMfags but don't blame on STEMfags what could more likely be blamed on the crass simplemindedness of redditors.
>>7388603
>mfw thereof you must remain silent
>>7388619
How exactly do scientists and engineers "understand the world" better than your average moron on the street, let alone philosophers. What special insights do subjective models based on suppositions give us?
>>7388648
They build it, so they understand it. [s] :^) [/s]
>>7388648
>subjective models based on suppositions
That's philosophy actually.
>>7388648
>suppositions
lol get out of here with that depak chopra tier shit
>>7388656
How is science different?
>>7388374
>Wittgenstein saved philosophy
>the popscifags who haven't studied STEM or philosophy in this thread won't remain silent
Wow, what the fuck... Social and political philosophy are the only reason these idiots received the gift of being free to do whatever they like... The works of thousand of great men over thousands of years in fields like ethics or ontology are the reason they are not slaves.
>>7388663
You really need help with that one?
>>7388630
what do you mean by the time most STEM workers touch it? who gathers the information? STEM is too broad to lump it all into into the same field. I know what I would like to do, and am doing all in my power to get there. I understand there may be a certain amount of drudgery, but that must be factored in for most if not all steady employment. Real quick here, are you defending something or only attacking STEM?. What do you do?
>>7388636
>Yeah, you went full retard on this part. Didn't you?
Nigga if you know enough about STEM to really understand the "beauty" it'll give you ... you had to fucking learn a shit ton, right? Took a lot of time and effort, right? Expecting people to put in that effort when it isn't their focus is unrealistic. Simple as that.
>Why?
Huhhhh fine. The beauty sciences gives you never rises beyond a sorta "golly gee, isn't the world so complicated and intricate, with all these moving parts all moving together, with all that shit we don't quite understand but damn it sure is purty". It's an autistic child's idea of what's beautiful.
Beauty in art, by contrast ... well first off, it's not even important to the humanities (this is the 21st century ffs). The humanities is interesting because it gives us a language for our experience that, by allowing us to step away from reality through a sorta simulation, enriches our experience of reality once we return to it. Tho you could argue with that and substitute a shit ton of other conceptions of aesthetics. At any rate, "golly gee that poem sure is purty" is maybe the least interesting part of humanities.
....huhhhh okay hot shot Imma attempt to stop the tension and ask you an actual question: why do you think science is beautiful. Articulate its value relative to the value of the humanities (don't repeat what you just said - the fact that the physical universe had to exist before lit autists could have infinite infinite jest threads isn't an interesting justification for it).
>>7388674
Does it matter? I just asked a question. You could explain it but since you didn't I suspect you can't.
And, without the study of aesthetics Wittgenstein hadn't made fucking beautiful architecture.
>>7388672
Why do we have to respect modern philosophers though. How are they improving modern society?
>>7388661
What is Chopra-tier about acknowledging that any model of reality is inherently subjective? I've never read any Chopra, but the fact that you apparently know his work well enough to associate such a notion with him shows that you're pleb as fuck. The semi-pleb thing would be to have said Robert Anton Wilson, but you went full pleb.
Now everyone knows you watch Oprah.
>>7388679
>Beauty in art, by contrast ... [rant about some other shit]
>never explains what it actually is
Yeah, your "beauty" is really no different than his. You're just mad that science is both beautiful and practical.
Anyone arguing in this thread is propagating the non-issue of philosiphy vs science. Anybody good at either dosent view them as opposing. Anyone arguing in this thread is both shit at philosophy and science.
>>7388643
Now I'm not sure if you know what I was referring to.
>>7388693
This
>>7388685
> improving modern society
> improving
> modern
> society
You spooky as fuck, nigga.
>>7388691
...I didn't explain what it is because it doesn't matter. That was my point; that he argued at me by saying that science is beautiful because *insert here* but that I didn't even start from the premise that humanities is important because it's beautiful (and probably nor would anyone else, because this isn't 1800).
>>7388698
I wanted to say this but knew I would be (youd) with "nice meme".
>>7388695
I got it, anon. Exceptthat's a myth: Sraffa actually brushed his chin in contempt.
>>7388679
I love science for the same reason I like surrealist fiction. My favorite books are the ones which you have to often re-read a couple of times to grasp what was going on. First is the confusion, the so called "mids-screw", then you start putting the pieces together and finally the catharsis when you fully understood it. It brings in a certain level of interactivity.
But art appeals not just to the mind, but also to the art and eyes. I think the latter is obvious, but the former might not be so. Yet think about how much the development of technology has done for humanity. People have contemplated societies in which humans are more free, more equal, without slavery, without feudalism. Yet it's technology that realized that and it's what we descripe in science that made well, everything be realized.
>Nigga if you know enough about STEM to really understand the "beauty" it'll give you ... you had to fucking learn a shit ton, right? Took a lot of time and effort, right? Expecting people to put in that effort when it isn't their focus is unrealistic. Simple as that.
It just requires determination, mobilization and practice. These just as important things when you want to create art.
>>7388458
7/10 b8
not unsubtle
>>7388749
A thing being beautiful is different from my appreciation of a beautiful thing in the same way that a name (drawing on the cultural memory of meaningful names, communicating to other people who also have access to that memory) is different from the thing named. See the difference? It's the difference between science and humanities desu.
>>7388778
Yeah, those aren't humanities, just the things it describes. Just like the planets and living organisms aren't thesmelves science.
>>7388783
...spoken like someone who's never had a piece of art actually affect how they think. What I'm describing is the thing you carry with you from the humanities once you put your book down. Maybe you missed the point of humanities education entirely?
>>7388751
lol thx
>all these people favoring STEM over humanities and vice versa
>not striving to be a polymath NEET who excels in every field
baka
>>7388806
I don't see a problem with humanities if you find a way to voluntarily finance yourself.
>>7388806
>using the word materialism wrong
>>7388744
I don't think you'd get in.
>>7388914
Somehow this ends up being the most despicable post of the thread. Well done.
>>7388917
>words can have more than one meaning
what a concept
>>7388941
Because you're a dirty socialist who thinks others should have to fund your useless lifestyle.
>>7388941
Where's your ethics and philosophy when you see nothing wrong with theft?
>>7388482
Heidegger was an obscurantist, hack mystic who said nothing of value. A nigger could lay that on him, but it wouldn't be of any use.
>>7388374
All of the really intelligent STEM students I've met at university had a respect for Philosophy.
>>7388984
And all of the really intelligent philosophy students I've met at uni respected the sciences and mathematics as well.
It just seems fools from either discipline or perhaps those who have no real vested interest in either discipline want to instigate conflict of quality along the lines of "Goku vs. Superman: who wins?".
>>7388656
>>>subjective models based on suppositions
>That's philosophy actually.
found the undergrad in science.
>>7389002
Case in point.
>>7388648
>implying anyone can know anything
>>7388994
I'm not even being a quirky meme guy when I say if you think Superman could ever beat Goku beyond the Saiyan Saga at the LATEST, you are a fucking retard.
Goku is consistently godlike, faster than light, and planet destroying for the entirety of Namek and post-Namek DBZ. Superman is unable to lift mildly heavy objects half the time, is maybe Saiyan Saga tier strong 40% of the time, and the other 10% is him doing stupid inconsistent bullshit like punching a sun out of the galaxy in one comic written by Liefield during a PCP trip.
That 10% constitutes 100% of Superman fanboys' arguments, but it either needs to be discarded as not representative of Superman's average or canonical power level, or simply because it makes the whole exercise completely meaningless anyway, because you can just take any egregious example from any badly written comic, like Speed Force being the alpha and omega of all superpowers, and say that all the other limitations that actually characterise the Flash (e.g.) don't exist. The Flash being stabbed by Deathstroke is an example of a shitty writer, just like Superman punching a black hole to death is an example of a shitty writer.
Superman is fucking weak and Goku would bitchslap him into oblivion without even trying.
>>7389002
If you truly are an intelligent STEM student who understands philosophy, then you would understand the issues in natural philosophy and in trusting our models and observations. And if that's the case, you wouldn't act so smug as this post comes across as.
>>7389013
Is this copypasta? If not, I applaud your zeal. At least it produced something of more worth than the discourse in this thread.
>>7388374
I don't understand what the complaint in this thread is. Some of the greatest philosophers are physicists or have some sort of STEMs background. I'm about to graduate but the best arguments I've had regarding philosophy have been with physics majors. You at least need to understand the world and how to form an argument if you are going to argue a point.
>>7389013
I was a highly respected member of the narutoforums vs debate forum for several years and I can say that this whole argument is entirely meaningless without defining what version of superman we are using as comic book canon is wack as shit and thus any conclusion you make before a version is stated is useless and wrong.
>>7389033
>Some of the greatest philosophers are physicists or have some sort of STEMs background.
Like?
The problem is that philosophy can be deceptively simple, so STEMfags think they have it figured out when in actuality their opinions are shit, they don't really understand the actual philosophical issues, and they no formal training in the kind of rigorous thinking that is needed to make sense of the issues in the first place. A BA in philosophy doesn't cut it.
>>7388374
STEMfag here, can confirm philosophy is dumb as fuck and the good philosophers just become scientists
>>7389103
0/10
>>7388968
>Heidegger
>mystic
>STEMfags this out of touch with their own existence
most mathematicians do not care about logic. they do not even know why they do math, and why should other people be interested in their work. they have no idea why they get up each morning.
same thing for logicians who do not know why they attempt to formalize the usual abstractions of our daily life.
same thing with the scientist who has no idea what he is doing besides asking money for running experiment. so far he is only able to tell us that his work permits a comfy life, because people are too hedonistic to live without computers and other technologies; but he fails to even prove once and for all that science is required to improve hedonism.
>>7388548
>Philosophy just isn't rational. It's appeals to the emotion, like art.
Get cancer, faggot.
Die a slow and painful death.
You're a waste of meat.
>>7389103
desu senpai
>>7388482
I'm sure you don't even understand Heidegger.
>>7388984
you don't know many people do you
Paul Graham is such a weird person
I've read Hackers & Painters, a collection of his essays, and it was a roller coaster of wonderful insights into LISPs, and pants-on-head-retarded black & white "us techies are best" bullshit
Even now I from time to time stumble over his essays (they suck his dick at HackerNews) and they are embarrassing, I mean, look at this one:
http://paulgraham.com/talk.html
These people (along with other auto-fellateurs like Thiel, Musk) are the current and future rulers of "our" world (that is, the Internet and everything associated) and I have to weep
>all STEMs are idiots xd because a venture capitalist wrote some blog post xd lol, I'm smarter than them despite giving no proof of my supposed intelligence or giving any rebuttal as I post using greentext with straw men and ad hominem "arguments" as anonymous in an image board frequented by teenagers and people in their early 20s
Reported. Take this to /his/ - History & Humanities. If you intention was trolling take this to /sci/ or /g/. Or maybe /b/ or /trash/, which has a more adequate discourse level for you, OP. Plenty of boards to choose as you can see.
>>7389619
Go to bed Paul
>>7389297
Jewish women. Most evil creatures on the planet.
>>7388458
>more clearer
Damn, really "more clearer".
Seriously?
>>7389552
All philosophy is seduction though
Paul Graham doea not represent us. If you enjoy hating OG and HN I recommend /r/programmingcirclejerk.
>>7389729
*PG
>>7388550
>STEM is vocational training at worst and, at best, let's us understand reality at a level so general to not really be insightful to our lived experience of it.
STEM is anything in the Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics fields of work/ study. Rather than giving your opinion just give the information that he asked for.
Also >...understand reality at a level so general...
Yeah, I don't think that's what you meant. You really think STEM is general knowledge?
>Knowing why the universe works mechanistically doesn't help me appreciate a beautiful thing, give me emotional catharsis or give me metaphors to empathize with people, whereas humanities has developed the means to do that for as long as people have told stories, sang songs, painted pictures, etc.
Why are you trying to find these things in STEM? You wouldn't expect to find interesting character development in case studies of contract law would you?
It's not supposed to help you find beauty in the physical world, that is a personal journey. It does exactly what it sets out to do, quantify and understand the mechanics of the universe.
>Many STEM students appear numb to this distinction and even arrogant in their comfort with it
To imply arrogance rather than indifference is just misleading. If they are arrogant I would say that is a geographical phenomena rather than a industry one.
>and our indulgence and distraction loving consumer culture is ready to give them all the cultural authority they ask for in exchange for more trinkets.
Everything used in modern culture->trinket. If you're so jaded about the industry, get out. Why do something you obviously hate?
>Basically it's just a reaction to autists on the internet,...
I see this more in /sci/and /lit/ than /b/. Why are supposed intelligent boards, the rudest?
>...with a few other threads in the fabric.
Yeah, just those few other threads are anything to do with modern life.
>>7388374
>Big Boys of English Speaking academia
>Singer
The philosophical equivalent of Judge Judy, Singer's self-contradictory pap ("abortion and infanticide are acceptable because these immature humans are incapable or rational preference" vs. "rationality is not a requirement for ethical conduct. Any irrational being will avoid pain, which is why cruelty to animals is unethical", which are flatly contradictory positions). Makes money by writing books that tell Liberals 'doing what you want is A-OK"
A buffoon.
>Chomsky
A decent linguist, his work in every other field is no more (or less) than self-serving rent seeking which he publicly admits that he, himself, does not believe.
Darn good at making a buck of gullible college students, but (unless you are speaking of linguistics, where he is very good) not a big academic.
>Dawkins
A mediocre-at-best scientist who will leave exactly zero mark on actual science, he became popular as a writer of PopSci books. When that income source dried up (because his theories were soundly thrashed by scientists) he switched to a series of popular books trashing what he thinks religious people might believe.
Never was a great thinker, never will be.
>Rorty
A man who counted on his readers having never heard of Gorgias, Rorty took facile rhetoric, relabeled it neopragmatism, and sold it like snake oil.
>Chalmers
About time an actual academic appeared. although, to be fair, while he does a fine job of reminding everyone of the hard problem, he has no answers. Which is no one's fault.
>Dennett
Refuses to use proper terms, mainly to hide that, deep down, he he knows any clear statement of his theories leads to eye-rolling
Not a serious academic.
.
This list is a list of "People that stupid people think are smart"
>>7388461
post your other reallys pls
>>7389716
That's a philosophy
>>7389049
Descartes, Leibniz, Russel, Wittgenstein, Husserl....
>>7388592
Praise Boethius
*winks valve*
He has a philosophy BA from Cornell
>>7388374
He's confusing philosophy with sophistry, but that's what philosophy is since Hume. Can't really blame him.
I mean, the whole cultural marxism thing sprouted out of Frenchie word games centered around papa Freud.
whats going on here?
>>7389859
>fedora.png
>>7388510
STEMfags are too autistic to truly comprehend the world, so their sad little brains retreat into a world where only le scientific method matters. Not only do they live dull, joyless lifes, they want everyone else to be like that, too.
STEMfags have gone so far as to spit on the very idea of being "bewildered" by a "mystery", because it's really just a slightly more complex puzzle that gives out answers when you apply le scientific method.
In other words, if you're 'impressed' by some riddle of reality, you're a fucking retard who should not be.
Their ultimate goal is basically to rid humanity of emotion and make us all walking Spocks who have no comprehension of, say, aesthetics. This is why Nietzsche valued emotion over "logic", because he was as pissed at these fucking autistic, soulless subhumans as anyone else.
I remember Dawkins calling the meaning of life a "silly question to ask", because you can't empirically verify it. That about sums up STEMtards.
>>7389049
Bertrand Russell, Göttlob Frege, Kurt Gödel, W.V.O Quine, Saul Kripke, F. P. Ramsey, Carnap, Ayer, Shlick, Neurath etc.
I mean, if you don't have a good grasp of mathematics you will always do shitty philosophy with a foot deep inside history and will deal more with culture than with real issues.
>>7389981
>In other words, if you're 'impressed' by some riddle of reality, you're a fucking retard who should not be.
Aside from all the dumb shitflinging ITT, this one is definitely true regarding STEMfags.
>>7389581
What a dagger.
>>7389848
Yeah it is fight me
Humans throw away the ladder after climbed up it. Metaphilosophy tells us that it is indeed outdated. But when AI comes along, Math(not sure about other STEM) will be no longer anthropocentric and bound by human cognition.
>>7390163
This 'divine perspective' that exists outside human cognition is the same kind of abstraction as 'God'; there will never be such a thing in the same way there will never be a 'Last Judgement' of the Christian lore. It's pure ideology that people use to justify the here-and-now reality.
>>7390208
he didnt say it would be a privileged perspective. just not anthropocentric anymore. if an emergent artificial mind starts creating its own math, it will be intuitive common sense to itself but look completely incomprehensible to us.
>>7390294
I'm sorry to tell you that, but it's unimaginable for us to not be 'anthropocentric'; whatever humans posit something that exists in-itself (Nature, God, Universe, whatever) is only so we can make use of it without feeling that we are destroying something and that we can always make use of it again some time later. Nothing exists that is not reduced to human experience.
.
.
>if an emergent artificial mind starts creating its own math
Don't computers already do that to some extent?
>>7388458
STEMfaggot detected. Go to your cubicle and punish yourself for trying to think outside binary categories.
>>7390315
>Nothing exists that is not reduced to human experience.
it will create tools to increase its power and this will be the interface for our experience of it.
our anthropocentric judgments would collapse with each decision of this new non-human, non-animal individual.
>if an emergent artificial mind starts creating its own math
>Don't computers already do that to some extent?
there were articles about strange results in automatic chip-design. but it still seems to be understood within framework of traditional mathematics.
>>7390392
>our anthropocentric judgments would collapse with each decision of this new non-human, non-animal individual.
I can't take all this ideology m8.
>>7389808
>self-serving rent seeking which he publicly admits that he, himself, does not believe
[citation needed]
Chomsky is one of the good guys, m8
>>7389808
>Singer
>Makes money by writing books that tell Liberals 'doing what you want is A-OK
I guess this is true if the only thing liberals want to do is to give their own money to charity, but I don't think that's the case.
>>7389808
The intelligentsia as a caste are not neutrals and non-interested actors engaging in public policy, it is a social group with it's own political power project that can be easily identified through the ages. Marxism, post-modernism, deconstruction, liberalism, anarcho-syndicalism all these ideologies attack the power structures of other castes and enhances the social status and power of intellectuals.
Your criterion of being an "actual" academic or not is whether he is apolitical.
>>7390526
>Marxism, post-modernism, deconstruction, liberalism, anarcho-syndicalism all these ideologies attack the power structures of other castes and enhances the social status and power of intellectuals.
That is why all of those ideologies are utterly pedestrian, as is "the intelligentsia". The fact that they get killed in pogroms every time one of their "ideologies" takes off is reified justice.
>>7388521
Kids also understand that Santa can visit every home in the world in one night. The understanding of children is a very, very poor argument. I've seen refutations of the kind of epistemic determinism you're referring to; I wish you the best of luck in finding a child who understands them.
>>7390534
What do you think of my last statement though? I sort of lied. There are two kinds of intellectuals, general and specific. General intellectuals are exactly what >>7389808 this anon identified and deserved to face against the wall. Specific intellectuals whose expertise is one sector emerged after WWII. They are granted a lot more power (think Oppenheimer) but they too, divided and conquered by the power structure by definition.
Face it litfags: the only relevant pieces of literature written in the 21st century are written in code. And Tbh this is an advance for civilization; programming unifies the beauty and purity of logic with the sensitivity and subjectivity of natural languages. This is the next evolution in human thought; you guis with your aestheticization of natural language had your turn to shape culture and you did it well for a few millenia - now it's the turn of aestheticized formal languages to shape culture.
You keks.
>can't understand Berkeley
how dumb can you get? Berkeley is one of the easiest philosophical writers to understand ever
>>7390569
lmao
tfw you take this seriously
>>7390569
What does that even mean?
>>7390569
Translating your post to "code" would be a logical next step
>>7388374
This is interesting but
>>>/his/phil
>>7390574
When was the last time a piece of lit actually affected the way culture works? Hell, when was the last time a product of any field of the humanities actually changed the general educated public's thought (autist book worms on the internet or careerist MFA students don't matter)? It's a faint memory at this point; it's been decades, maybe even a century; that basic function of culture has been drowned out by cheap distraction enabled by ... you guessed it, TECH!
Ffs lit used to really shape things. Religious texts shaped worldviews of entire civilizations. Poetry used to be common touchstones for whole communities. Now what's left of it? Almost nothing. The only aspect of culture that survives is the way people access information, the perception of the world being shaped by the structure of the medium, that structured being created out of ... CODE!
Face it keks: you and your whole project and all those pages you've read are irrelevant. You learned a dead language. You don't matter. Accept it, keks.
>>7389808
Pretty solid b8, surprised to see so few replies.
>>7388374
>Paul Graham
That guy isn't just a STEM fag. He's at the center of the SV echo chamber.
>>7390636
Thanks for reminding me.
4chan hates everything. I should stop posting desu
>>7390616
>Hell, when was the last time a product of any field of the humanities actually changed the general educated public's thought ?
This prodigious event is still on its way, and is travelling, it has not yet reached men’s ears. Lightning and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, deeds need time, even after they are done, to be seen and heard. This deed is as yet further from them than the furthest star, and yet they have done it!
>>7390616
The last time this immeasurable event was successfully measured was around seventy-five minutes past minus two o'clock on the twelfth of Never.
The non-occurrence of this non-event will not itself, of course, be taken as evidence of very much of anything by 'the general educated public'. But maybe it will by spergs.
>>7390712
why can't all philosophers write as good as freddy-kun
>>7390321
>>7390621
It's because he's absolutely right. It isn't bait, he's just preaching to the choir.
>>7390616
>by ... you guessed it, TECH!
>Ffs
>out of ... CODE!
>keks
>Accept it, keks.
reported
>>7391152
>It's because he's absolutely right.
He's right that a) Dawkins advanced numerous "theories" [sic] which were "soundly thrashed" AND that b) Dawkins' popular science books ceased to be profitable AND that c), a) is the cause of b)?
The first thing you should consider when thinking about that is the question "Has Dawkins stopped publishing popular science works since beginning his foray into professional fedorism?" That the answer is "No" is really all you need.
>>7389981
so much this.
you're not allowed to be awed by anything anymore. you're not allowed to think beauty and art are worth living for because le chemicals in your brain lmfao.
a proper STEMfag would see the underlying physical processes that gird reality and feel a sense of exaltation knowing these dry physical constants gave us so much beauty and splendor. the real STEMfag sees the evolutionary advantage of love and scoffs at anyone who thinks otherwise.
joyless, dead inside autists. fuck 'em
>>7391243
check your ressentment
all the salt in this thread from LAtards
I hate autistic stemfags as much as the next guy but you're all really mad lmao
>>7390616
This has to be b8
I'll bet you all of my money that one of the Supreme Justices has read philosophy and made a decision that "shaped things." Any serious politician worth his marbles has read some political philosophy.
Get over yourself
>offer no rebuttal other than raging at STEM or saying read x philosophy without posting a clear and cogent summary of the argument
>proceed to get into STEM vs. non-STEM shit-flinging
Seems like /lit/ is getting pretty buttblasted from this.
>>7392519
ok ^_^
>>7388374
What gives people the idea that science and philosophy are diametrically opposed? Science attempts to discover how the universe works. Philosophy (among doing other things) unpacks the findings of scientists and explores the various implications, moral or otherwise.
>engineer
>more philosophically literate, competent, and successful than all of /lit/
What an awful board. I need to stick to /a/.
>>7388470
>>7388588
Wadda fallacy.
>>7388994
Science and mathematics are too prideful to deserve any praise.
>>7392519
Nutshelling massive arguments is one of the most disgustingly reductionist things a single entity can attempt.
To put it in terms you'll understand, it's like reducing empiricism to: "look at thing and write what u see."
>>7392519
>becomingly reading what he wishes to, in the sole purpose of not facing his despair
Linguist here. Both literature/philosophy and STEM need to die.
strawmanning STEM people like this is more autostic than STEMfags themselves
what are you going to do with a philosophy major?
>>7392581
Nice argument. ;)
>>7392581
Wow good point. Who knows how I can possibly fit into society without a "useful" degree.
>>7392584
>No refuting points whatsoever
>"N-n-n-nice..a-argument.....f-FAGGOT!"
>>7392587
No, really. It was a great argument. You sure convinced me! ^_^
>>7392581
>what are you going to do with a philosophy major
>he thinks philosophers have to work
Nice going wageslave.
>>7392587
You didn't make a point.
>>7392591
So you just mooch of of people who actuslly work for your worthless ass?
>>7392596
why not? -_-
>>7392597
If you were physically here I would beat your ass to the ground
>>7392596
>His family doesn't love him enough to leave him an inheritance
I feel bad for you. Literally the only argument you have in favour of STEM is that it makes you a better slave.
>>7392599
I don't understand. What is your justification for not just living from the means provided by your family, friends, or the welfare state?
>>7392600
while I'm making things that actually exist, you go ahead and keep thinking about things that don't exist
>>7392605
How do you know what exists?
>>7392605
>While I do something menial my entire life because I have no inheritance, you go ahead doing what you love because your family was intelligent enough to save and invest for the future
No problem wageslave faggot :^)
By the way, you don't 'make' shit, you just refashion it into a different form so someone somewhere else can buy something they don't need :^)
>>7392608
kinda like how you split hairs with all your different philosophies that are the exact same
>>7392608
Also, what did your parents do to leave you with inheritence? Because they sure as shit couldnt have been philosophers
>>7388374
messing with language? language is used as tool to represent ideas, feelings, concepts, etc
is he confusing philosophy with poetry?
>>7392614
Actually my father WAS a philosopher, (as well as a hedge fund manager).
Stay mad, faggot.
>>7392612
No, you are dumb.
>>7392610
>architect
Nope. He designed one house and even that was a philosophical project as much as anything else.
>engineer
No, and even when he was forced into engineering (briefly) he hated it. Read Monk's book you dumb pleb.
>work for a living
No, pretty much his entire life was devoted to philosophy.
Wageslave STEMkeks stay mad.
>>7392620
STEMtards can't into subtle distinctions, and they can't think any thoughts that don't glorify STEM.
>>7392622
I did read Ray Monk's biography. He was a schoolteacher and spent time fighting in wars most of his life. He developed an engine which was later used in helicopters in WWII. I'd count that to qualify him as an "engineer." Like most idiots you bend the truth to fit your agenda.
>>7388697
Thirded
>>7392628
>schoolteacher
A job he hated and didn't stick to.
>fighting in wars
No, retard. World War I was one SINGULAR war, not 'wars' plural :^) :^) :^)
>engineer
Pretty sure he spent the vast majority of his life studying and teaching philosophy, fucktard. Stop distorting history to fit your preconceived "muh STEM" meme.
>>7392670
>STEM is just a meme and everyone in the field is an idiot and worthless, philosophy is so much more important
>uses technology to shitpost about failosophy
Explain to me the importance of philosophy to me without using anything in STEM.
>>7392698
>Explain to me the importance of philosophy to me
>>7392700
>THIS IS HOW PHILOSOPHERS ACTUALLY ARGUE
>>7392698
No, because you define 'importance' in terms of ability to make people buy shit they don't need, like my computer and my Iphone. STEM is responsible for creating these things, but I'd be able to cope if STEM and computers didn't even exist, whereas you couldn't handle it because you're a consumerist faggot.
>>7392700
>ad hominem
I apologise that I didn't proof read before posting between HVO switching steps. I was kind of distracted with work. Keeping power on so you can sit under the air-coin and talk crap.
But continue using technology to shitpost.
>>7392670
He was also a physician during WWII, and a homosexual.
Btw, is it impossible for you to argue without memes?
>>7392713
>he isn't NEET
>>7392713
>I alone am responsible for all of the electricity in the entire world
Holy shit. Are all STEMtards this delusional?
>>7392713
Why do fucks like you have to give STEM autists like me a bad name?
If you really were in STEM, you wouldn't be so arrogant like you are right now. Nearly all of us don't amount to that great shit and being proud of the achievements of others is ridiculous, but OK.
>>7392713
That's reductio ad absurdum not ad hominem you nonce.
>>7392704
>Projecting
Except I love camping in remote places. I live in Alice Springs for faarks sake. I would survive without technology or society. Where as you need people to validate your philosophical views, I am happy either way.
As for STEM being responsible for those products. It is true that they made it but consumerism is a philosophical stand-point. You choose to be a consumer of products. But whatever, continue please.
>>7392723
>implying that's how I meant it
>implying I'm not acting as a voice for the floor staff in these fields.
>implying you're not just avoiding the points made
>>7392713
*tips fedora*
>>7388574
just starting learning
Why does /lit/ hate STEM so much?
>>7392732
>Why do fucks like you have to give STEM autists like me a bad name?
You're name is mud? That's all you buddy!
>If you really were in STEM, you wouldn't be so arrogant like you are right now.
Which part is arrogant? I make a point to say I am working in the field and that people like me do this shit so dickheads like you can sit comfortably inside and bitch about how shit me and the people in my trade are!
>Nearly all of us don't amount to that great shit
Congrats on being a miserable cunt, confirmed for not going to make it. How about having some confidence in your abilities mate?
>and being proud of the achievements of others is ridiculous, but OK.
You're young aren't you? Under 23 I would hazard to guess?
>>7388374
>being this insecure
>>7392763
>You're name
>>7392765
>only has one hobby
You must be so interesting, please tell me more.
>>7392763
Hi Dad, I'm Name is Mud.
>>7388693
Some eminent STEMfags criticize philosophy (e.g. Hawking), but no competent philosopher seems to dismiss science are useless or lacking merit. I would agree that scientists and mathematicians usually aren't autists who think empiricism and stereotypy-utilitarianism are the hard endpoints of human philosophy, but some of them actually are. The stereotype isn't totally baseless.
>>7392771
Not your blog faggot.
>>>/i/fuckinglovescience
>>>/r/science
>>>/r/books
>>>/r/fitpeopleproblems
>>7392763
Will Mr. Zyzz get me my Nobel prize? ;-;
>>7392769
See
>>7392713
I'm not really proof reading. Only shitposting between switching steps.
>>7392775
fug, I totally botched this post. I got distracted and edited it several times, while completely forgetting to correct the contextual grammar.
Oh well
>>7392786
not your blog :p
>>7392780
Where as you just have number 3.
Well meme'd M'lady
>>7388374
>Silicon Valley entrepreneur and venture capitalist
There's your problem. Most physicists and mathematicians I know have philosophy as a kind of a beloved hobby and the smart ones mostly shut up about it.
Also, as a STEMfag, I shall never forgive PG and his idiot committee friends for that abomination of something truly beautiful that goes by name Common Lisp
>>7392792
>M'lady
>>>/r/eddit
>>7392789
Now I know you're trolling.
>>7388374
You know, this thread reminds me of a story I'd like to get off my chest about the arrogance of STEM people about the "difficulty" of our major.
I was happily walking across campus towards our massive new shiny, glass walled multi-million dollar government funded cheme laboratory when I realized I needed to take piss. And what other building than the the Visual Art department happened to be the nearest? So I was walking through the old building noticing that even though they haven't seen funding for renovation in decades, they seem to have done a good job preserving and what they do have, it felt very cosy. The bathroom was kind of nice clean and the halls were quiet.
On my way out I happened to see an active lecture hall, the lecturer was quietly helping one student at the front while the rest worked so it seemed somewhat akin to a tutorial session. Everyone there seemed pretty relaxed and as if they actually had enough time to properly wash and get well dressed this morning, they put a clear effort into their appearance. I had a minute so I stopped to glance at some work the students were producing.
This experience made me realize 3 things:
>This lecture hall is filled with complete and utter fucking plebs.
>I could draw geometric shapes by hand better and more accurately after my 1st semester tech comm. class than half the hacks and idiots in this class who can barely draw a straight line.
>Our arrogance is completely justified, fuck these tards, arts should not be a real university degree in the 21st century, keep your hobbies outside academia.
Copy-pasta but still true.
>>7392802
not your blog ^_^
>>7392802
History, philosophy, and law ought to be regarded as quasi-STEM.
Or discreet in some other way
15 more posts to the bump limit so this cancerous thread can finally die.
Let's do it guys!
>>7392798
>implying I go on the internet enough to go anywhere other than 4chan/ Facebook/ porn
Sure buddy, what ever helps you sleep at night.
>>7392810
Science and Math ARE philosophy, it's just that philosophy also has retarded branches like morality and metaphysics so they can't be part of the serious club
>>7392816
>uses normiebook
ree ;)
>>7392818
>2edgy4me
>>7392802
Are you trolling because you sound quite silly
>>7392894
yeah I am
truth is I'm too dumb to read science papers or philosophy books
at least I baited some of you guys though lol
