>sail to Troy
>rekt shepherds and farmers
>steal their women
>get keked by based Agamemnon
>throw a huge bitch fit
>refuse to fight with your bros anymore
>pray that your bros are killed so that they beg you to return
>still refuse when they beg and offer gifts
>eventually let your best bro go out in your armor to fight off destruction
>he dies
>instead of blaming yourself, you blame all of Troy
>kill based Hector because your god-forged armor is literally impenetrable
>drag his body behind your chariot
>continue to bitch about how your best bro is dead despite the fact it's your fault
>die young and like a bitch in Troy because of "muh glory"
Holy shit is there a worse person in literature than Achilles? "Best of the Acheans" my fucking ass.
Diomedes and Odysseus are the only reasons I didn't root 100% for the Trojans.
>>7383159
Reminder that Helen was in Egypt, not in Troy.
So yes, Achilles went full retard.
>>7383164
...what? Helen was in Troy. Even if she weren't, that would make Menelaus the retard.
>>7383164
No she wasn't.
>>7383159
But he's still great. He's the greatest, and that's why he goes into a bitch fit. Ain't nobody gonna take his girl without consequences. But it also causes his downfall.
He is the greatest tragic hero in all of literature, really.
beta faggot detected
>>7383164
Achilles didn't give a Fuck about Helen
>>7383195
Why's he great? Does he do anything great?
He's hyped but I don't think the reader has any basis to claim that he's great.
>>7383164
>using the equivalent of fanfiction of the BC years as reference and source of reliable information
Nigga you what?
You're viewing it from modern ethics you fucking idiot.
>>7383218
> implying the Trojans wouldn't have given up Helen
b-but Herodotus was wrong about everything!
Except he wasn't. He understood the cause of hair loss and it's only know being confirmed by science.
Herodotus is always right.
>>7383214
I've posted this before but:
held on to honor, respect, justice, even at the cost of defying the most beautiful woman in the world (and the mischievous deities that supported her) as well as kings. In both cases what was theirs was reclaimed.
The Iliad and Odyssey exalt the nobility of Honor.
The very first word of the Iliad is “RAGE.” The “RAGE” of Achilles when his honor is violated and his rightful prize and love is taken from him by his very own commander.
Right here we see Man versus State, as Achilles is the superior warrior, and as he takes all the risks, he ought get the reward. That is the Natural Law of Zeus, for after Achilles Natural Rights are violated and Achilles quits, Zeus sees to it that the Greeks begin to lose, as Zeus’s will was done.
Long before Atlas Shrugged in Rand’s cheap novel, Achilles quit the Greek army.
Homer shows that women who honor their commitments, like Penelope, lead to happy endings. Women who disregard their commitments, like Helen, lead to War.
Achilles quits for the sake of Honor, refuses to return when offered millions times more prizes, arguing that once honor is taken away, mere money/prizes cannot buy it back. He also reasons that all the wealth in the world is not worth him losing his life in an arena where his honor was taken away. When offered honors and awards, Achilles states, “I receive my honor from Zeus, not from corrupt Kings."
And too Achilles returns to fight for Honor, so as to avenge the death of his friend Patroculus, knowing full well he will die.
Simply put, Achilles is a man who lives and dies not for mere prizes, nor perks, nor tenure, nor titles, nor money, but for honor, and honor alone.
A few hundred years later, Socrates would invoke Achilles while facing death at his own trial. Socrates was offered perks and prizes and life if he would only recant his teachings that “Virtue does not come from money, but money and every lasting good of man derives form virtue.”
But then Socrates asked, “Would Achilles back down from battle if bribed by physical wealth?” Socrates reasoned he would be dishonoring the Great Achilles if he ever recanted his teachings.
And of course Socrates mentored Plato who mentored Aristotle who mentored Copernicus/Newton/Galileo, who gave birth to Western Science and Technology and Freedom, all via the Homeric Honor of Achilles.
(You aren't an ancient Greek and don't take honour as seriously as they did)
>>7383228
Ignore that top bit, I took much with the copyp/aste
>>7383214
>he kills literally hundreds of men on his own
>nearly on the same plane as the gods
>the reader has no basis to claim that he's great
>>7383214
>I don't think the reader has
Whatever.
I don't think there's any point in you wasting your time on the classics.
>>7383220
"No doubt some mortal has suffered a dearer loss than this, a brother born in the same womb, or even a son... he grieves, he weeps, but then his tears are through. The Fates have given mortals hearts that can endure, But this Achilles..."
Even Apollo thought Achilles was being a huge bitch. "Muh Honor." You know what would have been honorable, not letting Briseis getting taken away and still fighting for his fellow Greeks.
Achilles fags are the worst.
Why did all of Greece under Agamemnon invade Troy for one girl? Why did the families of these men support them in doing so, even the women? Was this woman that beautiful? Yes, it is that in part. There is the saying of the woman who launched a thousand ships. But in going after this woman and the cowardly Paris who stole her, the men were going to reclaim society. It was not that the men were horny and all marveled the beauty of this woman. It was that these men upheld their values so much, that they wouldn’t even let this woman, who had beauty blessed by a “goddess” get away with doing something so heinous as breaking a wedding vow and running away with another man to another country.
>>7383225
>implying the Acheans ever gave a fuck about Helen to begin with
I think if you look at it historically then the Acheans had no fucking reason to ignore this perfect opportunity to fuck shit up.
>also
>Herodotus
>always right
>Thoukidides ftw
>>7383237
>hit multiple times with spears
>literally only saved by invincible armor
Literal plot armor is what made Achilles great.
>M-M-MOMMY THE GREEKS ARE BEING MEAN TO ME
>TELL ZEUS TO KILL THEM ALL
Not to mention that man tried to fight a river and almost died hilariously lel
>>7383159
Which is why everyone with taste prefers Virgil or at least the Odyssey.
The Iliad is claimed as a favorite by posers, essentially.
>>7383247
achilles is literally about to kill agamemnon when athena stops him you stupid faggot. read before you meme
>>7383247
Achilles was gonna kill Agamenmon you dip
>>7383293
It was Hera first off, and I'm just saying he could've refused to give up Briseis when Aggy's men came to claim her.
Who's the stupid faggot now?It was always you.
>>7383299
>Aggy
Is that what you call Ἀγαμέμνωνon on reddit?
>>7383309
>get a plot point wrong
>try and redeem yourself by googling the original Greek name
Don't worry m8 there's no downvotes here.
>>7383299
It was athena oh my god lol. Fuck off back to r/books
>>7383289
You automatically prefer stories about cool dudes to portrayals of the human condition set against an epic background?
Is the Illiad for posers because Achilles doesn't qualify as your dream husband or something?
Seriously though?
>>7383309
>*Ἀγαμέμνων
>>7383309
He didn't even get it right.
>>7383313
>reading the classics for the plot
Whew lad
>>7383352
What else would you read it for? The plot is the most important component according to Aristotle.
>>7383357
>>7383164
Helen is a metaphor for control of the bosphorous.
>>7383357
>>7383357
I read them because in Greece it is compulsory to do so. Both the ILiad and the Odyssey. And you have to write a 300 word essay on them both. It fucking sucks
>>7383374
Go on...
>>7383382
In the original? How different is classical Greek from modern Greek?
>>7383382
>And you have to write a 300 word essay on them both. It fucking sucks
i love you
>>7383388
> She's not fucking here! Honest!
> HURR DURR MUH HONOUR
>>7383391
Not vastly different I could translate anything at this point, but the version that they use for both books is really weird, instead of making a translation which makes sense, they choose to go for a word for word translation, which since the punctuation is different that modern Greek just comes out awkward as fuck.
>>7383385
The dardanelles, rather
>be Trojan peasant
>fighting this war because of dumbfuck Paris
>ten goddamned years of this shit
>give up trying to kill Greek captains because the spear will just stop in midair and other crazy shit
>hang around the back because fuck Paris, seriously
>hear that Hector killed Patrocles
>oh fuck
>see Achilles far away smashing Trojan heads like coconuts
>spears bouncing off him as if they're made of bread
>he throws his spear at some Trojan captain
>must be son of some god because spear changes direction midair and hits me instead
>dude FUCK Paris
>die because parents were too ugly to fuck a god
>>7383432
>give up trying to kill Greek captains because the spear will just stop in midair and other crazy shit
I kek'd
>>7383190
For Arete - a sense of honour. And it's not like Herodotus should be treated absolutely at face value.
>>7383432
>die because parents were too ugly to fuck a god
>>7383190
To them came Helen, the cause of all that agony and death, yet as they looked at her, they could not feel any blame. "Men must fight for such as she," they said to each other, "For her face was like that of an immortal spirit."
>thinking Herodotus is any more reliable a portrayer of history than poets
>>7383432
>must be son of some god because spear changes direction midair and hits me instead
pottery
>>7383248
“There was a time when for one woman’s sake a city was besieged for ten years by the united armies of Greece — far from home, with many lands and the sundering seas between! How, remembering that, can we shrink from sticking it for a single year — barely twenty miles away, too; nay, almost within sight of home?”
Even the Romans knew their virtue paled in comparison with Greek arete.
>>7383548
yeah the romans
