best translation of Iliad and Odyssey?
>Lattimore
>Fitzgerald
>Fagles
>Lombardo
or others.
butler
Chapman
Fitzgerald first if you have trouble understanding Chapman
>>7373399
Erland Lagerlöf.
Has anyone read Pope's? I've only seen an excerpt but I loved it.
http://159.203.110.57/odyssey/
I did that blind and got Lattimore, which happened to be the one I read 10 years ago
>>7373399
>translation
>>7373475
Why should I get Chapman over Fagles, which seems to be the go-to these days? srs question.
>>7373555
Go to Amazon and read the first page of each.
Fagles is easy to read/understand, but Chapman is poetic and quite beautiful.
>>7373399
I enjoyed Fagles and Lattimore, although Fagles has some anachronistic feeling word choices that crop up every so often that feels kind of jarringly modern for ancient Greek poetry. I tried Lattimore, didn't like it too much. English isn't too well-suited to hexameter and it comes off kind of weak feeling compared to other forms, especially when it's done for such a long work.
Reading Chapman makes you feel like, elite and shit but it's also less accurate to the Greek, harder to understand (and therefore finish), and Chapman also had some bizarre ideas about how Achilles and Christ are like allegorically related as the perfect man. Can't remember exactly but it's something weird only a 16-17th c classicist could believe.
Line comparison time. (I don't have a Fagles iliad handy, sorry.) You can get the intros on Amazon probably so let's do something from book 23, Patroclus's ghost appearing to Achilles.
Lattimore
"You sleep, Achilleus; you have forgotten me; but you were not
careless of me when I lived, but only in death. Bury me
as quickly as may be, let me pass through the gates of Hades.
The souls, the images of dead men, hold me at a distance,
and will not let me cross the river and mingle among them,
but I wander as I am by Hades' house of the wide gates.
And I call upon you in sorrow, give me your hand; no longer
shall I come back from death, once you give me my rite of burning.
No longer shall you and I, alive, sit apart from our other
beloved companions and make our plans, since the bitter destiny
that was given me when I was born has opened its jaws to take me.
And you, Achilleus like the gods, have your own destiny:
to be killed under the walls of the prospering Trojans [...]"
Lombardo
"You're asleep and have forgotten me, Achilles.
You never neglected me when I was alive,
But now, when I am dead! Bury me quickly
So I may pass through Hades' gates.
The spirits keep me at a distance, the phantoms
Of men outworn, and will not yet allow me
To join them beyond the River. I wander
Aimlessly through Hades' wide-doored house.
And give me your hand, for never again
Will I come back from Hades, once you burn me
In my share of fire. Never more in life
Shall we sit apart from our companions and talk.
The Fate I was born to has swallowed me,
And it is your destiny, though you are like the gods,
Achilles, to die beneath the wall of Troy [...]"
Chapman
"'Dost thou sleepe? Aeacides, am I
Forgotten of thee? Being alive, I found thy memorie
Ever respectfull, but now, dead, thy dying love abates.
Interre me quickly; enter me in Pluto's iron gates;
For now the soules (the shades) of men fled from this being beate
My spirit from rest and stay my much desir'd receipt
Amongst soules plac't beyond the flood. Now every way I erre
About this brode-dor'd house of Dis. O helpe then to preferre
My soule yet further; here I mourne, but had the funerall fire
Consum'd my bodie, never more my spirit should retire
From hel's low region: from thence soules never are retriv'd
To talke with friends here, nor shall I. I hatefull fate depriv'd
My being here, that at my birth was fixt; and to such fate
Even thou, O god-like man, are markt: the deadly Ilian gate
Must entertain they death [...]"
Pope
"And sleeps Achilles? (thus the phantom said:)
Sleeps my Achilles, his Patroclus dead?
Living, I seem'd his dearest, tenderest care,
But now forgot, I wander in the air.
Let my pale corse the rites of burial know,
And give me entrance in the realms below:
Till then the spirit finds no resting-place,
But here and there the unbodied spectres chase
The vagrant dead around the dark abode,
Forbid to cross the irremeable flood.
Now give thy hand; for to the farther shore
When once we pass, the soul returns no more:
When once the last funereal flames ascend,
No more shall meet Achilles and his friend;
No more our thoughts to those we loved make known;
Or quit the dearest, to converse alone.
Me fate has sever'd from the sons of earth,
The fate fore-doom'd that waited from my birth:
Thee too it waits; before the Trojan wall
Even great and godlike thou art doom'd to fall.
>>7373399
Rieu, clear, to the point, elegant and more forceful than fagles (judging only fagles' first page).
>>7373853
Fagles
"Sleeping, Achilles? You've forgotten me, my friend.
You never neglected me in life, only now in death.
Bury me, quickly -- let me pass the Gates of Hades.
They hold me off at a distance, all the souls,
The shades of the burnt out, breathless dead,
Never to me me cross the river, mingle with them...
They leave me to wander up and down, abandoned, lost
At the House of Death with the all-embracing gates.
Oh give me your hand -- I beg you with my tears!
Never, never again shall I return from Hades
Once you have given me the soothing rites of fire.
Never again will you and I, alive and breathing,
Huddle side-by-side, apart from loyal comrades,
Making plans together -- never... Grim death,
That death assigned from the day that I was born
Has spread it's hateful jaws to take me down.
[...]
>>7373925
>Never to me me cross the river, mingle with them...
Should say:
Never to let me cross the river, mingle with them...
>>7373958
Read the samples and pick your favorite
>>7373963
i suppose its between Lattimore, Fagles, and Lombardo.
>>7373958
Gee I mean take your pick. It's the same poem after all. Look at the samples and pick which has your favorite feel. Which you think is the most beautiful / clear / accurate / evocative / flowing / archaic / contemporary. Probably Lombardo is the most modern feeling and easiest to read, but easiest isn't necessarily best. Chapman is probably the hardest to read but then again, hardest isn't necessarily best either.
One thing that's fun is to read mostly in one translation, but when you find a passage you like, compare it to other translations like we're doing here. It can really help to "triangulate" the exact meaning of the Greek text, so you don't get stuck thinking Homer Said Exactly This when it is just the translator's own way of paraphrasing. (Also helps in writing academic papers so you don't waste time close-reading something that's not really there.)
Interestingly enough when I was an undergrad I asked a professor of Classics this exact question, which translation is the best. His advice was to spend 6 months learning Homeric Greek. Sorry I've got other things I need to do with my life.
>>7373991
>6 months learning Homeric Greek
You can't even learn French in 6 months and the languages are very similar (to English)
>>7373991
Thanks! great advice, i'm sort of new to literature in a way. I mean i never had a real interest in reading until i was about 15. Now that i'm a little more grown up, i've been reading more modern day literature and such instead of random young adults and coming of age novels to satisfy my teen angst (lol) and ive decided to get into the classics. I was just asking since i'm fairly new to the greeks in a way. But thanks i'll definitely look into what you said (:
>>7374025
If I had 6 months, all the right books, a tutor, and nothing else to do, I bet I could learn Homeric Greek. Probably I'd need to study 8-10 hours a day but I'm sure I could do it. You probably could too. If you're not a pleb that is
>Can't even learn French in 6 months
Don't mistake high school / college language classes for actual language learning.
>>7374048
Yes, that is true. But in reality I only have maybe 2 hours a day.
>>7373399
am i the only one that read the herbert palmer translation
Iliad: Pope
Odyssey: Fitzgerald
>>7373846
>>7373853
>>7373925
Fitzgerald:
"Sleeping so? Thou hast forgotten me,
Akhileus. Never was I uncared for
in life but am in death. Accord me burial
in all haste: let me pass the gates of Death.
Shades that are images of used-up men
motion me away, will not receive me
among their hosts beyond the river. I wander
about the wide gates and the hall of Death.
Give me your hand. I sorrow.
When thou shalt have allotted me my fire
I will not fare here from the dark again.
As living men we'll no more sit apart
from our companions, making plans. The Day
of wrath appointed for me at my birth
engulfed and took me down. Thou too, Akhileus,
face iron destiny, godlike as thou art,
to die under the wall of the highborn Trojans.
>>7373713
Fucking beautiful, it still gives shills and makes my eyes watery. Best English translation of The Iliad that there is.
>>7373868
>Rieu
I rarely see this translation mentioned. I have a copy on my shelf right now.
What is the general consensus?
>>7374894
Might as well read the plot summary on wikipedia
>>7373846
Fagles
"Sleeping, Achilles? You've forgotten me, my friend.
You never neglected me in life, only now in death.
Bury me, quickly--let me pass the Gates of Hades.
They hold me off at a distance, all the souls,
the shades of the burnt-out, breathless dead,
never to let me cross the river, mingle with them...
They leave me to wander up and down, abandoned, lost
at the House of Death with the all-embracing gates.
Oh give me your hand--I beg you with my tears!
Never, never again shall I return from Hades
once you have given me the soothing rites of fire.
Never again will you and I, alive and breathing,
huddle side-by-side, apart from loyal comrades,
making plans together--never... Grim death,
that death assigned from the day that I was born
has spread its hateful jaws to take me down.
And you too,
your fate awaits you too, godlike as you are, Achilles--
to die in battle beneath the proud rich Trojans' walls!"
>>7373481
Reading it now, first Iliad I've read. It's amazing, truly beautifully written.
I'm aware Pope takes a lot of poetic licence though. Which translation would /lit/ say sticks most closely to the original meanings? Would be interesting to compare.
>>7375274
Lattimore
>Anthony Verity
Is Cambridge's "Reading Greek" a good book to learn Greek?
>look at translations on Amazon
>realise Wordsworth Classics now has a serious competitor
>>7374894
Go copy out the passage from book 23 so we can all compare
>>7375889
I want to read Fagle for vanilla Iliad experience
As far as I know his writing is easy to understand and pretty close to the Greek
After that I would like to read Pope and Merrill for prose
Is that a good idea? I don't know what I'm doing, but I want to read the Iliad and do everything right
>>7375274
Lattimore easily.
Even then, I've noticed that his "so-and-so looked darkly at so-and-so" isn't even as literal as it could be (something like, "looked at from beneath his brow"), but it's closer to the Greek than almost anyone else.
>>7375927
>I want to read Fagle for vanilla Iliad experienceAs far as I know his writing is easy to understand and pretty close to the Greek
He's really not *that* close to the Greek. Sometimes he renders it fine, but quite often he renders it however might sound "badass" to modern readers.
>After that I would like to read Pope and Merrill for prose
They're both poetic renderings, Pope more obviously so, but Merrill tries to preserve a meter and rhythm.
>Is that a good idea? I don't know what I'm doing, but I want to read the Iliad and do everything right
Up to you. If you're looking for a literary experience, Fagles, Lombardo, and Pope are all fun in their own ways, but they always take certain liberties. Fitzgerald's got a nice balance between poetic language and accurate rendering.
If you're interested in the thought of the work, and would like to see a rendering that translates in a way as to help make it clearer what the Greeks took from Homer philosophically, theologically, and politically, then it's Lattimore who gets you closest to it.
>>7375942
Thanks anon
I wanted to read Pope because I enjoyed excerpts I looked up, but I heard that he takes great liberties with the text
Merrill is probably similar in that way, I've heard nice things about his prose and therefor believe he too is somewhat removed from the original
Because I plan on reading those two (at least Pope) for their prose, I would first like to read something more focused on conveying the original and staying somewhat closer to the Greek without being too difficult and dry to make it through.
How difficult is it to read Lattimore? I'm not too great at reading
Why does he call Achilles "Achilleus"? I feels like it's a dick move to make up your own funky names for the characters so your text is more different than the other translations
It's difficult for me to make a decision, I'm afraid I'll end up reading five versions of the Iliad
I wish I wasn't too dumb to learn ancient Greek
>>7375962
>How difficult is it to read Lattimore? I'm not too great at reading
Not especially hard. Most people who don't like him, don't like him because he can be dry. I'd say that's a virtue of his though, since the alternative is exaggerating the language in such a way that the ideas of the text get distorted. Take a look at him, anyway, and see what you think. The excerpt above is pretty much what you're getting.
>Why does he call Achilles "Achilleus"? I feels like it's a dick move to make up your own funky names for the characters so your text is more different than the other translations
Hahaha, that's because that's Achilles' name in Greek. (Pronounced something like "aki-lay-oos")
>>7373481
Don't know why Pope is never mentioned, I think he does a great job other than using the roman names of gods which is annoying as fuck.
>>7375608
Please respond.
>>7376207
I haven't worked extensively with it, so I'm not sure that I'm as capable judge as I could be (I learned Ancient Greek through Mollins and Williamson), but it seems solid. Lots of good exercises from what I remember.
>>7376243
Thank you for responding.
That book was recommended in some /lit/ Greek chart, but I don't like how the pronunciation is taught in it at all; I'll try that Mollins and Williamson book.
Is it possible to learn Greek together with Latin?
>>7376277
I've never done it myself (learn Greek alongside Latin), so I couldn't say whether the study of both of them together helps with learning them or hinders or slows down, but I suspect the latter, if they're both new to you. That'll be especially frustrating when you're trying to memorize case endings and verb patterns.
>>7376313
OK, thank you.
>>7373399
OP, if you are trying to choose a translation...
Figuring out the "best" will drive you nuts. Really all you can do is figure out the consensus amongst literary sharps, and for the first time reader of Homer this consensus is:
Lattimore's Iliad
Fitzgerald's Odyssey
Pull the trigger.
>>7376585
Although I'm not OP, I appreciate that. I have Butler's translation of both from when I was a child but I never got to reading them. I generally only read books once so I prefer those translations that are closest to the original work.
Might you also be able to tell me what the best translation of the Aeneid is as well?
