How were Paul and Leto capable of seeing the future. When I read Dune a few years ago I thought their reasoning was extremely fast and accurate, and the Spice exponentially made it even more powerful, but after reading Dune Messiah and Children of Dune I not very sure.
they were literally bred to have perfect prescience. paul and leto were the result of a millennia-long breeding program
And Paul and Leto's organisms were saturated by Spice
>>7313520
not really no, it just is.
>>7313520
Spice gives presience; think about the Guild Navigators., for example
>>7313520
Because reality is deterministic, or at least pseudo deterministic, as objects and individuals behave in finite ways. They can predict the future as long as they stay perfectly within the casual trajectory, any deviations and their prescience is worthless.
So it's not seeing the total future, it's calculating one possible thread of a future, and being enslaved by it.
I suppose you could treat the Dune universe as entirely deterministic, with Paul and Leto bred to have the correct brain structure to interact with the Spice in such a way that they were able to perceive the timeline of the universe as a whole.
>>7313430
The Kwisatz Haderach. It's genes, son.
>>7314719
I always did like how Herbert maintained a sense of mysticism but always had a fairly reasonable scientific explanation for those reading between the lines.
>>7313660
But wasn't the whole point of Leto II's plan to "defeat" predeterminism?
Also, I'm pretty sure it was actually just magic. The guild navigators used it to dodge incoming space debris. That's not something you can determine with logic.
>>7315225
Well, he put into motion the events of the Golden Path which ensured the long-term survival of humanity. The Golden Path was one of many possible futures, and the true power of the Kwisatz Haderach was to be able to see the many steps needed to achieve a certain future. So, the universe evidently isn't totally deterministic in this case, but the Kwisatz Haderach itself is a driving deterministic force because it can see the totality of events resulting in specific futures.
The Navigators were prescient in that they could observe a much more narrow slice of the possible near futures, only concerning the position of objects in space.
>>7313430
That feel when I've never watched Dune, but I had a dream with that fucking giant worm.
Damn traumatic childhood and repressed memories...
>>7317189
Same FTL technology but with more risk.
Smaller ships made short exploratory jumps, with relatively frequent losses, if I remember correctly. Larger ships, like the humongous ones used by the Spacing Guild carry a much larger risk, hence the development of Navigators after the discovery of Arrakis.
>>7313430
Hello im half way throught the book and I forgot who paul was, can anyone help me? spark notes is down.
>>7313430
Are the sequels any good? I've only read the first one.
>>7319427
It's been awhile, but I dug all the original Frank Herbert books. Chapterhouse: Dune, in particular, was a great read.
Avoid his son's stuff -- it's the Dune equivalent of 'extended universe' starwars
>>7319427
yes.
The last quarter or so of Dune Messiah is brilliant.
I've read up to God Emperor and considered that the final since by the end of that there are no original characters.
>>7319427
Most of people says no, but they had never read it, so I don't know how they got this idea. They are great. Not as good as the first one, but great.
>>7319809
>The last quarter or so of Dune Messiah is brilliant.
This.
Most of people seem to prefer Children of Dune, but I found it too weird. Still very good.
>>7314719
IIRC the explanation was that the future wasn't deterministic. Paul's "prescience", in Dune, was the ability to see the future effects of actions. In Messiah, he used this ability to arrange things so for a while, there was only one possible way things could go--the universe was deterministic. At the end, when it's revealed that Chani gave birth to twins, he is surprised by this fact, revealing that the deterministic phase of the universe is over.
Later, in God Emperor, Leto II repeats this feat over a much longer time scale. The idea is that eventually so many humans going further and further out into the universe while being "invisible" to his ability to predict the outcomes of actions that creating a deterministic timeline will never be possible again. The "invisibility" is the result of Leto II's own breeding/genetic engineering program.
givin this a bump
