If there's no evidence for God's existence, why does so much philosophy treat His existence as a given?
>>7226103
Your premise is iffy, and your conclusion oh that's right I'm on /lit/ nvm
Because that assumption is all the religious have, give them a break man
>he thinks reality being a quantum fart is a given
>>7226103
oh god lmfao
>>7226103
Nothing is a given, that's why philosophy is sort of pointless. That being said it's impossible to escape, the mind constantly wanders towards it.
>>7226103
They were indoctrinated.
>>7226103
>evidence
No one in the history of the world ever needed empirical evidences to do or believe in anything, philosophy merely try to disclose those reasons.
>>7226103
Well, the existence of a God was accepted as true for the longest time in history (basically because other explanations weren't available).
The reasoning at that time probably went something like this: "Why would you have to prove something that is obviously there? I know that there is air around me because I can breath."
Aristotle proved God two millennia ago, everything that followed that tries to characterize him is debatable and most of it is prolly bullshit, but that doesn't mean it's not perhaps the most important question.
>>7226103
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presuppositional_apologetics
Learn to google OP.
Revealed religion
Natural religion
>>7226151
>>7226151
>causality
>>7226204
>presuppositional apologetics
1. If you don't believe in something for absolutely certain there can be no basis for anything else you might think.
2. Handwavey dismissal of all the things nonbelievers say anchors their thought that doesn't differ from what any other apologeticists do.
3. Ergo Christianity is the only way to think.
>>7226244
Aristotle's proof has absolutely nothing to do with causality, Aristotle holds that the universe has always existed. He's not arguing for a creator God, he's arguing for a sustainer God (the opposite of deists who subscribe to a creator God, but not a sustainer God). Aristotle's argument could work even if you were an eternalist.
>>7226103
My reply to you is the same is that of the Spartans to Philip of Macedon.
>>7226269
The real question is why should we take anything this dumb greek nigger said seriously when he was wrong about something as basic as the atom and he knew less about the world than a contemporary high school graduate?
>>7226128
>Nothing is a given
GTFO, pleb
>being on /lit/ and not knowing the meaning of 'axiom' or 'brute fact'
>>7226283
Because empiricism has told us basically nothing certain about the cause of the universe while logical metaphysics provides a series of insights, before even science considered arriving at them?
Or maybe that Aristotle effectively invented the scientific method anyway.
Daily reminder that Christfags are the cancer killing /lit/.
>>7226295
Wrong. You know nothing of cosmology and physics. All metaphysics has provided is a series of unverifiable nonsense and wankery.
>>7226299
Christfags will fall off, the pendulum of identity politics and contrarianism dictates that the board will return to secularism soon
Take the God question out of existence. It's not the point, not the question, to be an atheist, theist or any degree of doubt in between. I mean it, this is not just to end the discussion or look to pacify its parts or anything like that. I mean that this is not the point in the slightest, because you'd be putting this God in relation to what you think existing means, what you think differs reality from fantasy and so on.
That's not the point because the point is precisely to understand how God functions as a signifier of our world, that is, precisely what makes things real and not real. This signifier is individual as well as collective, multiple, but often mashed up in a few single names. This is the parameter through which we live. This has God, that hasn't, this is reasonable, that is not, this I'll consider, that I'll ignore, this exists and is real and important, while that is false, irrelevant, meaningless. Take this question to semiotics. If you say "God is good", isn't that a statement about the whole world? When you say "According to..." (science, god, your dad) doesn't that tell us a lot about how you see the world? If you talk about "nature", what is nature if not something completely imagined by you from what you see in the world that escapes your artifice? God is exactly like so, a projection, but nevertheless real in itself, completely contraditory in which it is an imagination of something we can't imagine, that escapes our power of conception, it is the accident that even if meaningless is nevertheless true. And how do we relate to this accident? What is the historical narrative that grounds our doing, that makes us think something is worthwhile, or that a particular approach is better than the other? When atheists talk about God, even to show its contradictions or villainy, they must understand they are talking about how they relate to their universe. And when Christians or other theists defend a given perspective on God to an atheist, they are missing what is the ultimate signifier of these atheists.
God is not a concept, not an idea, not an invention, our conception of it is an invention. But God is whatever comes before us, whatever taught us the signs we use to talk about things, regardless on how you name it or whether you like it or not, just like life is and it was not our idea to be alive, but we are nevertheless here and doing things and inventing reasons for us to be here that would justify what we do. To talk of God is to talk about this process itself, not of a thing that can be named or defined, but about how each one of us name it and relate to this process of understanding the world we live, how we act, how we relate to our thoughts, emotions, our visions of time, memory and death and also the geographic, political and historical thread that sustain our societies, the way we think of our family, our posessions, our relation to animals and plants and, afterall, all there is to see and to touch.
>>7226299
Yeah. I mean, it isn't like Christians ever wrote anything on the scale of, oh, the Divine Comedy, Don Quixote, the City of God, Quo Vadis, Ben Hur, or Lord of the Rings, right?
>>7226340
>we speak in languages that allow us to ask questions that beg the question of something other than the physical
>ergo there must be something other than the physical
Yikes. Work on that reasoning, write more concisely and come back with something a little less pretentious and more tenable.
>>7226350
>wrote
This being the most important word
>>7226315
>he thinks the Big Bang is a sufficient explanation for why reality exists
>2015
>sciencefags still getting How mixed up with Why
>>7226368
And how does one answer why-questions reliably?
>>7226350
Don Quixote is pretty heavily critical of the Church.
>>7226363
This being /lit/, yeah.
Oh. Are you trying to imply any contemporary atheists are producing actual *literature*?
Protip: that SF trash you wallow in isn't literature.
>>7226383
And?
The Church is full of people who make mistakes and deserve criticism.
>>7226380
sophism
>>7226407
Contemporary atheists are busy doing science. Meanwhile, you read silly fiction books like a child.
>>7226352
It's not about what is physical and what is not, that distinction is null. Once again, it's not a matter of existence, so it isn't something that "is" other than the physical. If you took what I wrote as a reasoning for defending a position of existence or non-existence of God, you're wrong. What is happening is people talking words and doing things and what they must have considered in order to say them and do them.
>>7226368
"God wants it to" is not a sufficient explanation either.
>>7226454
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt by reading it that way.
Having grown up with serious Christianity, left the faith and studying religion continuously through all this, I just don't think what you said is very interesting or useful to someone who's not a 14 year old getting high for the first time because no Christian besides a few obscure academics would claim that God isn't real in the conventional sense.
>>7226103
>no evidence
you'll probably go on pretending the life of Christ or the existence of the scriptures is "no evidence", but the best anyone's been able to say against them is that they are probably very weak evidence, and would not be acceptable in any serious field of modern study.
This does not mean there is "no evidence".
Daily reminder that you have to be very near retarded to believe in God.
Christfags are the cancer of /lit/.
>>7226506
First sentence only gives them flame to be more cancerous. Just report the thread and move on.
>As pure thinking consciousness belief has this Being immediately before it. But pure consciousness is just as much a mediate relation of conscious certainty to truth, a relation constituting the ground of belief. For enlightenment this ground comes similarly to be regarded as a chance knowledge of chance occurrences. The ground of knowledge, however, is the conscious universal, and in its ultimate meaning is absolute spirit, which in abstract pure consciousness, or thought as such, is merely absolute Being, but qua self-consciousness is the knowledge of itself. Pure insight treats this conscious universal, self-knowing spirit pure and simple, likewise as an element negative of self-consciousness. Doubtless this insight is itself pure mediate thought,, i.e. thought mediating itself with itself, it is pure knowledge; but since it is pure insight, or pure knowledge, which does not yet know itself, i.e. for which as yet there is no awareness that it is this pure process of mediation, this process seems to insight, like everything else constituting it, to be something external, an other. When realizing its inherent principle, then, it develops this moment essential to it; but that moment seems to it to belong to belief, and to be, in its character of an external other, a fortuitous knowledge of stories of “real” events in this ordinary sense of “real”. It thus here charges religious belief with basing its certainty on some particular historical evidences, which, considered as historical evidences, would assuredly not even warrant that degree of certainty about the matter which we get regarding any event mentioned in the newspapers. It further makes the imputation that the certainty in the case of religious belief rests on the accidental fact of the preservation of all this evidence: on the preservation of this evidence partly by means of paper, and partly through the skill and honesty in transferring what is written from one paper to another, and lastly rests upon the accurate interpretation of the sense of dead words and letters. As a matter of fact, however, it never occurs to belief to make its certainty depend on such evidences and such fortuitous circumstances. Belief in its conscious assurance occupies a naïve unsophisticated attitude towards its absolute object, knows it with a purity, which never mixes up letters, paper, or copyists with its consciousness of the Absolute Being, and does not make use of things of that sort to affect its union with the Absolute. On the contrary, this consciousness is the self-mediating, self-relating ground of its knowledge; it is spirit itself which bears witness of itself both in the inner heart of the individual consciousness, as well as through the presence everywhere and in all men of belief in it.
>>7226475
>serious Christianity
Is this like watching the teletubbies as a full grown adult? Hilarious.
>>7226493
Which scriptures? the Bible or Quaran?
>>7226513
Shaming is the only solution.
>>7226475
I'm not saying God isn't real. You're in this either-or question that I have no interest about. I'm also saying what I'm saying in spite of Christians, atheists or teenage stoners, but to anyone that sees fit, not claiming a definition of God, neither analyzing it theologically, nor trying to modify anyone's speech. Of course Christians will be Christians and atheists will be atheists, in a conventional way or not, it doesn't worry me the slightest what one thinks of God or what they think is reasonable or not. What interests me is how these thoughts affect their actions.
>>7226290
>axiom
>given
If people didn't questions axioms we never would have invented set theory, non euclidean geometry, anything from the hilbert program, etc
>>7226283
The objections to Aristotle are the fruit of the seeds he planted, just like the objections to Christianity today are ultimately the fruit of the Christian perspective.
>>7226518
I'm not a Christian anymore, fam. I meant that my church was very into theology, reading scripture and intense discussions of all the above. We were like the Christian equivalent of Jews, as opposed to Catholics with fifteen nursing infants per mother or megachurch tards.
Learn to read, guy.
non religious people seem like dense retards to me. I mean God is obvious. it's an abstraction. why is man the only creature on this planet having this discussion? because of a tiny difference of dna? that tiny difference is the entire world of difference. whenever a scientific riddle is resolved another two more show up. this is the paradox and why religious ideologies have endured over thousands of years.
>>7226613
How does any of that lead to God?
>there's a lot of unsolved problems
>hmm god must exist then
>>7226613
>this is what Christians actually believe
You think everyone else looks retarded because they don't rend their clothes and gnash their teeth because the massively complex universe doesn't reveal its every detail to their singular perspective? Do you not see how egotistical it is to only accept a world where someone will explain everything to you?
>>7226629
I never said it did, retard. I said it's why religious ideas are still around. Copernicus, newton etc thought science was a way to reveal God in nature.
I don't think God will ever be proven or disproven. there will never be the kind of tangible evidence to change anyone's mind.
they will have to come to whatever they believe in, in their own terms in their own understanding. I wouldn't have it any other way.
>>7226629
God is essentially the metaphysical strange attractor of strange attractors.
>>7226651
>non religious people seem like dense retards
What else did you mean then?
>>7226665
>I have a sense of a God who like it when I call people retarded on 4chan
He must be quite a guy :^)
>>7226665
So you admit that half of your post was irrelevant? Please, if your going to put forward an argument, make sure all you type is relevant - otherwise people misread; you silly dumbass
>>7226662
read through the thread.
some of the atheists out there are equally narrow and assuming as religious people. they're equally oblivious and equally hypocritical. can't fucking stand these types from either side of the aisle.
>empirical evidence is wrong because I don't like what it implies
Never would I think Aristotleans and continentals would hand so much in common.
>>7226697
How do you know the true nature of God?
/lit/ is truly the worst board. I'm done.
Did you guys ever think its a bit ironic that you're on the 'literature' board, discussing God, and you're not quoting the most popular piece of literature in the world, which is about God?
>>7226708
there is no "true nature of God" that man can grasp.
there is nothing outside of God. you can't even meet all the variety of people living on this planet in a lifetime let alone assume the true nature of God. if men understood God, men would be Gods. the notion of God wouldn't even exist.
>>7226685
>le rational middle ground meme
You're a dumb fuck if you seriously entertain religious folklore. Centuries from now humanity will look back at these conversations and laugh at people like you.
>>7226738
I think that regardless of God's existence or absence, this statement is not true
It's funny how Christianity is just a meme now
Bayesian probability points that it's more likely this world was created than that it wasn't
>>7226685
>muh tolerance
When someone has all the time and space they need to state their arguments, it's totally valid to tell them when they're not putting forth good arguments. Regardless of who's doing it, your feelings really aren't that important.
Like the other guy said, there's nothing special about trying to locate the centrist position. That's a totally arbitrary and cowardly way to approach these issues.
>>7226729
retarded asshole assuming stuff. I never said "I just know" however spirituality isn't dead like a book. it's a living "thing" otherwise I wouldn't feel the way I do about it. you're too retarded to understand like I said yet you'll go on and assume you do. you'll act all smug and have all your one-liners ready on how you describe people of various faiths. I'm sure it makes you feel good even though you're an oblivious hypocrite.
>>7226750
I don't understand this response, and I don't intend that as an insult, I just don't get it.
Isn't he saying that atheists have just as strong 'faith' in the non-existence of God, as the christians have in his existence?
that's simply a declaration of fact, that atheists have strong faith. no argument is being presented, and no one is trying to place themselves on a political spectrum
>>7226750
I'm not coward enough to change my position just because you try to paint me in whatever way you think invalidates me emotionally. I am a person of faith but I totally understand idiotic people with or without religious faith.
>>7226665
*tips fedora*
>>7226752
You don't know me, you pretentious cunt. I was an earnest believer of a living faith as well as a careful scholar of the faith through my early twenties and I came to a different conclusion from years of study. The sophistry, dishonesty and anger you're showing here is what I can't stand, not the end product of your beliefs.
>>7226701
>David Hume
>continental
*tips fedora*
>>7226746
>implying you know anything about the a priori conditions to a world's existence
Fuck off, and nice use of "Bayesian" to qualify an idea you don't understand
>>7226493
>you'll probably go on pretending the life of Christ or the existence of the scriptures is "no evidence"
Don't have to pretend; it isn't.
Some things are in motion. (Science supports this)
A thing cannot, in the same respect and in the same way, move itself: it requires a mover. (Science also supports this)
An infinite regress of movers is impossible. (Science supports this)
Therefore, there is an unmoved mover from whom all motion proceeds. (Science supports this)
This mover, everyone calls God. (Science is too blind to support this)
>>7226763
>you try to paint me in a way you think invalidates me emotionally
I said that centrism and fence-riding in the context of the arguments in this thread doesn't make any sense. Sorry if something else triggered you.
>>7226758
He's saying that while claiming a "fair and balanced," approach, which doesn't address anything the atheists are saying and is just a high-horse personal attack.
anyone who has a genuine interest in the OP's topic, about why so many writers assume the Bible is true, should read it?
its always painful to sift through the emotional exchanges between 'believers' and 'non believers' who somehow never quite get around to quoting a single Bible verse.
I recommend Ecclesiastes, Job, Isaiah, and of course, the basis of much of Christianity, Romans.
I've always enjoyed Jonah, just because the ending is far more weird than the typical sunday school lesson about him
>>7226783
I don't believe in tensed time.
>>7226783
Time is infinite and all things were not created in the Big Bang.
Quantum fields have existence since before the universe.
Also read David Hume. Causality may or may not exist, but you can never know what caused something.
>>7226783
>Some things are in motion. (Science supports this)
>>7226771
you don't know me either you pretentious cunt. the sophistry, dishonesty and anger YOU'RE showing here is as plain as day. I've got my share of anger. it's annoyance and why shouldn't I be reading the responses here? fuck off. sophistry? dishonesty? I'm speaking my mind with no ill-intention and no intention to convert anyone if you actually read my posts. I basically said to atheists what several posts said to "christfags" with the word retard. notice how no one gives a fuck but when I do oh no we've got an atheist circle jerk. don't deny this. pretentious cunt? yeah it's exactly what you are.
>>7226793
The only part of the bible I reject is original sin and the compulsion to its ethics. The rest is all fine and Jesus was pretty cool.
Idk what god orders me to do he isn't my daddy.
>>7226810
"Atheist" in your sense is meaningless because we all have holy spirits.
Stop acting like anyone should respect or give a shit about your mystic beliefs
>>7226810
So you called people retards in every single post and now you're getting defensive about it and claiming to be persecuted. I shouldn't be so disappointed, but I am.
>>7226789
if God were proven or disproven with tangible evidence the discussion would've died a long time ago.
I'm saging every time btw. would love to see this thread die. I usually avoid them but am getting sick of the "I'm too smart to believe in fairy tales" masturbatory bullshit.
>>7226813
>Jesus Christ what a fucking cringe worthy response.
*postures fedora menacingly*
You can assert all you want that Christians are useful to society. We don't have to believe you.
The only conception about God that makes sense to me is that he's nothing comparable to a human. If God was like a super-intelligent human there is no reason why he couldn't have immediate contact with us, understand why we need conclusive evidence to follow some complicated system of ethics based on ancient texts etc.
If God is some impersonal first cause we can only speculate about that's a different thing though. But I can't really imagine a personal God who doesn't give a fuck this much.
>>7226823
Never asserted that, it's just that your worship of science is so retarded that it's disconcerting. Also, to say that Christians aren't "useful" to society makes no fucking sense since they comprise, at least in the country I live in, the vast majority of society.
I may not believe in god but that doesn't mean I'm going to throw a diverse group of people under the bus because I want to be an edgemaster.
>>7226820
If God is not material, then he's ideal, if he's ideal then the idea of existence is a triviality, because all thoughts exist where they exist.
Unless if you're going the Descartes route to insist there's more than two types of substance things can be made of.
>>7226834
I'm barely entering this thread. Don't be so hostile.
Being a "Christian" isn't a static character trait, it's an emergent one. You're a Christian or not by how you act, not by what you tell people you believe
>edgemaster
You're being far edgier than most human beings right now
>>7226840
I don't think you fully understand the edge meme, but whatever. The idea that a Christian is based on action implies there's a static set of actions that determine what a Christian is, which doesn't make sense when you consider the massive number of denominations that have entirely different ideas about what being a Christian is. The only real thread that keeps all this together is the belief in Jesus Christ being somehow related to the divine.
>>7226850
No, the idea that keeps it all together is original sin and the sense of indebtedness that invokes. I can regard Jesus as divine without that.
>>7226860
Good point, Christian Theology isn't my strong point.
>>7226834
Theologians and priests are among the most useless members of society. Churches are basically legalized tax evasion institutions. Christianity actively tries to hold back scientific and social progress. Sure, some Christians can contribute to society, but with massive cognitive dissonance
>>7226869
Disagree, the Church is the center of many a community and is important in maintaining any sense of social cohesion, and while there are many Christians that hold back scientific progress there are many more that do not. Painting with such a broad brush doesn't serve anyone.
I would also say that scientific progress is not something that is only positive, especially considering it delivered us such wonderful things as the atom bomb, agent orange, and biological weapons. Science isn't some benevolent entity, it's a tool. A very, very, dangerous tool, that must be used cautiously and intelligently.
>>7226883
>science is good
>progress is good
>being this much of a novelty-loving spookmaster
>>7226891
Did you even read my post...?
>>7226883
exactly. Copernicus, Galileo, Isaac Newton, Francis Bacon...you could go on with many of the corner stones of the scientific revolution WERE CHRISTIAN. they didn't feel science was at odds with God. like I said earlier itt many felt science was a tool to understand and reveal God in nature.
>>7226869
Erm, a church-type organization, even if were secular, would not have to pay taxes. If you created a massive D&D club that got together every week and had a paid coordinator (priest), with everyone contributing money, it would not have to pay taxes, because it wouldn't be considered a commercial enterprise.
>>7226896
I did, I didn't greentext 'scientific progress is good' for that very reason
>>7226204
Presuppositional apologetics is a small, recent movement from the edgy side of Calvinism.
It has no relevance to OP or to theology in general.
>>7226883
Church isn't necessary to maintain social cohesion. It also doesn't matter that some Christians don't hold back progress because enough of them do for it to become a problem.
>>7226901
But I didn't say that science is automatically good. I don't understand what you're trying to say, did I miss something?
>>7226868
>You do realize that it's painfully simple to invalidate all of empiricism, right?
Go ahead. Please do it in front of an oncoming bus
>>7226914
>i dont like you so kill urself NO DISSENT ALLOWED
>>7226907
I never said that social cohesion was contingent on the church, but the current structures in which we live in have it being the center of most communities. I'd also like to point out that Atheists have far higher suicide rates than Christians. The community churches clearly has psychological significance to human beings. Also, I don't understand how "enough of them do" is enough of an excuse to then say "fuck all Christians", especially when they fight with /each other/ on these very same issues.
Empiricists BTFO.
>>7226923
churches offer*
>>7226923
>priest fondling your child
>social cohesion
https://youtu.be/tABnznhzdIY
>inb4 Zizek memes
>>7226920
No, I'm asking you to actually take a risk for your beliefs. We can all talk, not everyone can do.
If you believe that the entire world is a mirage made up by your brain, then why do people like you never act on those beliefs?
Seems pretty fucking hypocritical to me
>>7226933
Just epic
>>7226933
I'd try to say, as I've previously stated, that you can't just say all "all Christians are X" but clearly I'm wasting my time. If you'd like to believe they're a bunch of degenerate scum so you can stoke the inner fires of pseudo-religious zeal, so be it. Have at the "enemy".
Even if it's all bullshit I've come to the realization that living a Christian life is infinitely superior and more filling than this sad hedonism I'm stuck in. I've never felt more alive than during a few months when I read a lot of theology and managed to convince myself that Catholicism was true. I went to church and everything and even enjoyed going to Mass, it was amazing and transcedent and beautiful.
Unfortunately I went back to being apathetic about it quick enough. I WISH I could believe in this.
>>7226103
>there's no evidence for God's existence
I hate this meme.
>>7226953
I don't remember if was Chesterton or Lewis who said this but nonetheless it stays the advice: fake it. That's right, even if you don't believe or whatever just go to church, go through the motions of being in the Mass, communion and so on. The Holy Spirit is all about this community.
>>7226116
He's saying there's no evidence for God, not that God not existing is a given.
>>7226968
give some, then
evidence or a rational reason
>>7226923
>I'd also like to point out that Atheists have far higher suicide rates than Christians.
Yes, but while they're alive they're at least SMARTER. Cry me a river you spoon fed conforming God-dick-sucking hillbilly. Come over to 2015 whenever you are ready.
DAILY REMINDER THAT ALL RELIGIOUS NUTS ARE IN WHAT SARTRE CALLS "BAD FAITH"! Plebs.
>>7226979
I'm an atheist.
>>7226978
What is prime mover
What is the historicity of the Gospels
>>7226979
>"It's 2015!"
Fuck off back to tumblr.
>>7226984
Don't choke my rage! aaaarrrggg
>>7226940
>If you believe that the entire world is a mirage made up by your brain,
Why are you putting words into my mouth? I'm no Idealist.
>>7226979
Lol kill yourself you millenial cookie cutter faggot
>>7226107
>Your penis is iffy
>>7226978
http://www [.] doxa [.] ws/other/Miracles2.html
http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html
>>7227000
Everyone has a 'doctrine', if it's not religion it is consumerism, narcissism, sports, 'scientific progress' and so on.
>>7226989
>Satre is bad though.
Leave it to a religious person to deny one of the top intellectual works of all time as "bad".
>>7227011
>the pic
>he expects us to take him seriously
>>7226985
>>7226103
There is evidence, the direct experience of the divine. In ancient times this was the purpose of the mystery schools and the work of many Gnostics, but has been largely forgotten or lost today.
>>7227015
I'm an atheist but Sartre is clearly dogshit philosophy.
>>7227013
>everyone has a doctrine
It's possible to have a better doctrine than Christianity and any of those things you listed, believe it or not. Accepting all the baggage that comes with Christianity is not worth it if you can read the rest of the world's wisdom texts.
God is the reason for the best art. Music too. I think JS Bach signed his stuff "all for the glory of God alone."
>>7226735
pantheism! like Einstein.
>>7227013
>Everyone has a 'doctrine', if it's not religion it is consumerism, narcissism, sports, 'scientific progress' and so on.
No. Stop projecting. You may generalize but don't affirm uncertain blanket projections.
>>7227022
Jesus Christ, do you really think you live your life completely free of ideologies and cultural conventions?
>>7227015
Sartre wrote philosophical novels that were pretty good. He was an intellectual on level with Camus. His actual work of philosophy as a discipline isn't really recognized academically, since it is mainly just reiteration of prior thinkers.
>>7227011
You presented several photographs of poor people looking into the sky (but photos of the sky) as evidence of miracles. Sit in the corner and think about that.
>>7227019
Evidently NOT. His phenomenological and ontological essays are pure gold. Try to get past the terminology next time.
>>7227022
This is pure ideology.
>>7227025
I live in adjointment with them, not in them.
>>7227025
>Christposter taking the name of the lord in vain
You're not even trying. I hope you at least have a good reason for not taking Paul seriously if you're going to flaut his directions. Conventions and personal priorities aren't the same as a huge convoluted system involving a personal deity and specific laws.
>>7227000
>Idiot. You don't have to be a Christian to do better than that unless you're really stupid and need to have your nose rubbed in it.
All non-Christians are hedonists by default.
>>7227015
>modern existentialism
>of any value
like...dude...be ur own god
>>7227020
Christianity is the only valid doctrine.
Why do christfags still post here? Go away!!
Hello guys, I am new to philosophy and religion in general. I find religion to be extremely fascinating, but My mind doesn't accept its existance, can you convince me about the contrary?
>>7227041
People are religious, therefore religion exists. Did I blow your mind?
>>7227041
>existance
Hey, you're that guy from the last Christfag thread. How's it going, buddy?
>>7227038
>like...dude...be ur own god
Not him but that's exactly what Sartre postulates as our primary endevour.
>>7227037
Religion merely reflects those larger social and mundane spirit and conventions of its times into representational thought. Yes, secular religion counts too.
>>7227041
I'm talking about God, btw.
>>7227041
You don't have to accept anything, it's just there.
God raped the virgin Mary in her sleep.
>>7227041
Read Aristotle, that's the best you can start with. All of Christianity goes back to the same problems the Greeks started with. It will give you a very precious perspective and an understanding that you don't need to be religious to read about theology.
>>7226923
Churches are not the center of most communities where I live. They might be if you live in some backwater hick town, but thankfully I don't. Churches only have psychological significance to humans in that they are communal gathering places for deluded people to socialize with others about creation myths. The latter part is unnecessary. It doesn't matter that Christians fight each other over some issues. You don't every Muslim to be a suicide bomber to denounce Islam as a backwards belief system that we would all be better off without. It produces sufficient problematic behavior and that's reason enough.
>>7227056
I don't want to read about theology, I want to belive in God because I'm fascinated, but I can't. Should I think of God as something different from the one described by Christianity?
>>7227053
>>7227045
Do you guys ever consider that maybe people are only religious because they need something to give meaning to their lives? Have you ever considered that maybe people choose the path of God because they need an explanation to perpetuate their own need for survival, similar to that of an animal?
>>7227038
>All non-Christians are hedonists by default
Christians all claim their faith makes them feel good, so that's on the same level as even the most ascetic secular practices.
>be ur own god
If you do away with the need for something comparable to a god in power then you can absolutely set your own priorities, expectations and goals.
>Christianity is the only valid doctrine
Excellent argument. Really set me up for that checkmate.
>>7227050
I hope you don't think this is a defence of the truth of any religion.
>>7227058
You faggots are tedious as fuck.
>>7227062
Just start with the greeks bro. You won't start believing in God after reading some pleb apologetics, you have to consider all of philosophy. And yeah, you shouldn't just think of it as a religious thing.
>>7226103
>If there's no evidence for God's existence, why does so much philosophy treat His existence as a given?
Delusion and the impact of deep rooted impact of social constructions on the psyche. Thank God the percentage of religious people in the world (the western world) is dropping like a stone.
>>7227065
What I mean is that religion only has truth and validity only to the extent that a nation or people act and demonstrates that truth in its culture, in its the mundane community.
>>7227064
I don't see how that contradicts the posts you quoted. Things don't come from nowhere, but the explanation isn't always that your gut feelings are correct.
>>7227049
Satre is one element of 20th century existentialism you illiterate.
>>7227065
>Christians all claim their faith makes them feel good
Generalization, not addressing
>If you do away with the need for something comparable to a god in power then you can absolutely set your own priorities, expectations and goals.
Why is this good and/or important?
>>7227075
I remember being 15 and thinking trolling and DESU posting was cool.
>>7227064
Why must i suffer because of my superior understanding of the world and them not? (That's a joke.)
But why must the world as a whole suffer from what mass religion drags behind it for society? Given increased education people will have the capacity not to crutch on religion and we will be better off without.
>>7227066
>waah I'm bored
Go ask your pastor to do some snake handling or something and then come back when you can pay attention.
Guys what's the point of debating about God if you cannot prove your theories? Isn't that a circlejerk? Are you practicing for your exams?
>>7227084
The human yearning for transcendental meaning is hardwired. I really cant fathom how autistic you have to be to think its possible to eradicate religion as a concept. Too fucking stupid to live
>>7227083
>I remember being 15 and thinking trolling and DESU posting was cool.
Face the facts soon you'll be all alone, and guess what? You're grandkids will have a higher probability of being an atheist than not.
>>7227089
More than half of europe lives without it you fuck.
>>7227089
>The human yearning for transcendental meaning is hardwired.
Shut up fgt, no it's not. We are hardwired to find meaning in our being, belief/faith is just one way to accomplish that. Stop trying to make facts of your half-assed and completely uninformed guesses at what constitutes human nature.
>>7227083
>why is this good and/or important?
It's good because I don't think any organized religion has the truth, but that we can reorganize around more humanistic values and take advantage of the parts of our brains that latch onto religion to internalize values and worldviews that will bring more lasting benefits to ourselves and each other. I think it's good because we can put away the baggage and nonsense that has attached itself to every religion and start over without suffering total confusion. This is a huge deal if you actually value truth. Not sure how you can think that sort of potential is not important.
>>7227084
greatest classical composers composed their music for churches. the greatest art and look up the scientific revolution. many scientists
>>7227064
but people aren't only religious because of that. the problem is the fucking narrow-mindedness of people like yourself. how can i explain it to someone so retarded? you just can't. I ask God every day for the power to explain it to dumb motherfuckers.
>>7227062
pantheism. look it up!
>>7227111
>greatest classical composers composed their music for churches. the greatest art and look up the scientific revolution. many scientists
Exceptions, the masses in totality degrade social potential to muck and piss.
>>7226978
man is the only creature having this discussion right now. why?
>>7227115
no. most Christians are nice and easy-going. most atheists too. you watch too much t.v...it's the most obvious thing to me.
>>7227128
I think he's just being elitist. I actually agree. Most people get very upset when you challenge them and the poor and uneducated are the worst about this because they live in a world primarily of dominance/submission and sex, so anything they don't understand is perceived as hostile.
>>7227121
EVOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!10111
>>7226103
You want to know the truth?
Because many higher education institutions in the West have been primarily Christian, and they would only hire people who supported their ideologies.
See: David Hume and his work history. Since he was branded as an atheist, he never got a job at a university.
>>7227121
We developed a capacity for pattern recognition and "social intelligence," far beyond that of any other organism. There is no evolutionary reason to tone down those abilities because false-alarms aren't nearly as damaging as starving or getting eaten, and it doesn't take much more energy to be as sensitive as we are now than to be slightly less sensitive. When we developed spirituality, it ended up serving a useful role as a memetic device for social cohesion, and so that stuck.
These things do not suggest the existence of a deity.
>>7227146
>I disagree with you
Opinion autoinvalidated :")
>>7227121
Ladies and gentlemen: the extent of a Christfag's knowledge. I'm fucking astounded. I thought these people I've been arguing with would know even a fragment of the workings of language. Holy fuck.
Is there a reason on why god doesn't reveal himself? Is it because he doesn't have a physical body? If he doesn't, why? If God reveals himself in everything that surrounds him, why only a few can or think they can perceive him? Wouldn't it be better for him to confirm his identity? Is God a brainless beign that doesn't do anything at all and therefore doesn't serve any purpose? Why creating everything and then concealing itself? What if I am God? Am I crazy?
>>7227156
Yahweh is too egotistical to be kind to us. He's like an abusive husband who only married/created us to validate himself and pushes the boundaries at every chance and then makes us deal with it.
It's really that simple if you read the Old Testament or Torah.
>>7227164
>Free will
Try determined will.
>>7227164
I never said those beliefs lead to truth. I said that neither of us has the truth and so we should back off from dedicating our lives to anything until we find something worth that kind of faith. What that shall be is a separate problem, but we are capable of giving ourselves to anything if we want to badly enough. The existence of numerous spiritual and secular religions should be evidence enough of that.
I know you're trolling but I hope someone who needs it is reading.
>>7227169
What's the point? Why is he the only ruler?
>>7227156
He reveals himself in every religious community (the Holy Spirit). Only the usual picture-thinking involved in such rituals prevent non-Christian people from realizing that.
>>7227183
You mean the same holy spirit that's supposed to guide all believers in their understanding of God? The holy spirit that dropped the ball so hard on that he ended up with like a million different denominations sharing the same core belief?
>>7227179
>god isn't Truth
>I know you're trolling
>evidence
You really can't argue, can you?
>>7227191
See my post here: >>7227050
The religious rituals are intrinsically rooted to a specific ideology of a people, there is no objective and external Spirit as atheists think that Christian people believe and that exists in-itself. The dove (or whatever the fuck else) is merely a representation.
>>7226116
Why do people insist on debasing all of reality as a mishap and an accident - much less a fart. I get that you have a woefully unsophisticated view of existence, that you believe in a fart instead of the existence of a greater consciousness, in vapid mental sloth when unending living mysterious sublime complexity stares back at you at every moment. There are two types of fundamentalists in this world, atheistic and religious. Both show a staggering lack of comprehension. Unevolved.
>>7227183
I am now atheist, thanks.
>>7227154
he said give a rationale. man is the only creature with any significant degree of creative capacity. you're a bored lonely dickhead to come here just to reply with that. fuck off and don't respond.
>>7227147
>We developed a capacity for pattern recognition and "social intelligence," far beyond that of any other organism
exactly my point. but you're grossly simplifying it to make it seem like it's something science has explained which it has not.
>>7227137
I think all creatures are evolving in some way...but that's not my point. why is man the only one...ONLY ONE...to evolve arts, sciences, etc. it has benefitted man to an incredible degree. why have no other creature evolved even a fraction in the way man has...which has helped man be the dominant species on this planet? it's the reason why we rule over all environments. surely evolution would award other members of other species who have even a tiny fraction of these traits so their species would eventually come along like ours but no.
>>7227197
>Christians don't believe in an objective and external spirit
On what planet? I don't mind if you tell me about your special-snowflake version of Christianity, but most believers would call that heresy.
>>7226985
>What is the historicity of the Gospels
What are your thoughts on the issues regarding the historicity of the old testament?
The deductive proofs of God are just a valid as Zeno of Ela's proof of movement being impossible.
>>7227201
Kek, welcome brother
chorus: one of us, one of us
Chorus in silence: :( :(
>>7227203
>why have no other creature evolved even a fraction in the way man has...
That's not how selective pressures work, anon. Evolution's not a race to the finish. More like a treading of water where some populations move to a different part of the pool when someone bumps into them.
>>7227203
>man is the only creature with any significant degree of creative capacity
and you know this how?
>>7227204
Let me put it this way: if they actually could see an objective and external 'heaven' or whatever, they would stop being religious; there would be no need to ACT as if there is a heaven. This is where the emphasis should lie: they act as a religious community precisely because of this gap that must be filled by the church. That social action allows them to, in their day-to-day, individual life to act as if there is no God.
You see, what they subjectively think doesn't matter, but what they do.
Robert Cormier - I Am the Cheese
>>7227200
Moderns numb to the spiritual depths f reality debase it as nothing more than a statistical fluke, news at 11
>>7227224
Oh I understand that. Not sure what it has to do with my post, but as an ex-Christian from the Bible Belt, I'm well aware that people use churchgoing as an excuse for their behavior.
>>7227245
I know, dad, now get off 4chan.
Seriously though, I think most "politically active," people at my alma mater did it for the moral high horse as much as any other reason.
>>7227222
Empirical evidence.
>>7227282
>Christposters are now empiricists
Wonders never cease.
>>7227282
Nah, you're making assumptions at face value. You're blinded by anthropomorphism. You think humans are superior to animals and because we have a greater brain-to-body-mass ratio, that suddenly because of this we have this magical concept called a "soul," and that we are "reasonable" and "rational," whereas other animals are not.
You'll shrug off this religion thing once you read more. Either that or you'll start cherrypicking your learning because you secretly need a reason to perpetuate your own existence rather than searching for truth. It doesn't affect me either way tbh.
>>7227307
>It doesn't affect me either way tbh
Maybe not directly right now. What if he breeds and spreads his ignorant pie man in the sky nonsense to his children? What if he converts other people to his cult? This guy is dumb enough to believe god created night and dat before the sun.
>>7227205
Not important one way or the other, but Augustine thought Moses was entirely fictional, for instance.
>>7227307
>literally describes the views of prominwnt greek philosophers
>you need to read more bro
Lol
>>7227029
Next time you see a big moon, take out your cellphone and try to take a picture of it and see what happens.
Not everything people see is capturable in photography.
>>7227399
And not everything people see is what they think it is. Mass hysteria and optical anomalies fam.
You're really that invested in some peasants' claims that god made weird noises and dropped rose petals from the sky somewhere in the Spanish countryside?
>>7226516
fucking georg
>>7227029
The more interesting miracle happened on the ground. It was pouring rain before the apparition which completely soaked everything in water. After the apparition, everything was fully dry (see photos). The amount of heat needed to pull that off naturally would have barbecued them.
>>7227455
And you take their word for it? There's no way you could have been deceived. Is evidence of the divine in your own life so thin that you have to cling to peasant myths and sensational journalism from back before, "journalism," was a word?
>>7227410
Mass hysteria doesn't work that way.
>disregarding opinions because they disagree with you
>ad hominem
atheist logic 101
>>7227307
There is a species superior to man? Name it. I'll wait.
I read plenty. I can tell you're the one cherrypicking already. I don't care if you're oblivious on your own but it matters when you're a hypocrite in this discussion tbh.
>>7227335
Pantheism you dense retard. I hope you dont have children and spread your assuming stupidity.
>>7227532
Gorillas have six times more upper body strength than humans
>>7227532
>pantheism
>literally the religion for people who want to fuck animals
ayy lmao
>>7227580
kek
There's nothing more pathetic and embarrassing than being a religious furry
>>7227594
Statistically furfags are atheists. 4chan did a survey iirc. Probably 1 in 3 atheists are furfags tbh
>>7226368
I don't remember him ever bringing up the BBT
>>7227342
Qutoe/reference?
Doesnt the the lack of historicty of the old testament destroy the value of the new testament since it seeks to fullfill the old ?
>>7227486
>There's no way you could have been deceived
This was when Portugal was a fascist anti-religious state:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Portuguese_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_October_1910_revolution#Anticlericalism
Most of the (atheist) journalists there were sent to report that nothing happened. It was in their interests to belittle it as much as possible.
>sensational journalism from back before, "journalism," was a word
The word come from french journalisme from the beginning of the 19th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_journalism
Unless by "journalism" you mean posts on /reddit/atheism
>in your own life
You'll just brush off personal accounts as hearsay so why mention them.
>>7227029
>>7227486
>they're poor
>and it's old
>therefore their argument is invalid
Oh silly me, I should have only listened to rich 21st century individuals like self-proclaimed enlightened mind of Richard Dawkins rather than those measly one hundred thousand 20th century peasants who just happened to be there. Whatever could I have been thinking. It is as absurd as the myth that WWI actually happened.
>>7227205
>historicity of the old testament
90% what we find in the ground backs it up. Pre-Solomon/David history is lacking but Egyptian historical records are well known for manipulating the past for political reasons so it isn't that damning for there to be little about them.
>>7227784
>90% what we find in the ground backs it up.
Except for the events of exordus which are arguably some of the most important. Did the Egyptians follow the hebrews into Sinai and destroy all their rubbish as well?
>Egyptian historical records are well known for manipulating the past for political reasons so it isn't that damning for there to be little about them.
No they arent Egyptians were fairly honest when it came to that matter, indeed aside from one major battle and the female pharoah they were no other incidents that would justify them hiding all the events of exordus.
Likewise the fact that the Hebrews despite being so obsessed with genologies and names, neglected to even name which pharaoh it was gives more credence to the lack of historicty.
>>7227011
>Auguste Meessen, following the work done before him by the Belgian skeptic Marc Hallet,[24] has stated sun miracles cannot be taken at face value and that the reported observations were optical effects caused by prolonged staring at the sun. Meessen contends that retinal after-images produced after brief periods of sun gazing are a likely cause of the observed dancing effects. Similarly Meessen states that the color changes witnessed were most likely caused by the bleaching of photosensitive retinal cells.[25] Meessen observes that Sun Miracles have been witnessed in many places where religiously charged pilgrims have been encouraged to stare at the sun.
Who would have thought that staring into the sun for a long period of time would cause you visions.
>>7226103
because it is a given you fuck face OP. just believe in God and you can learn new things.
People dont accept it because they think its too easy. Let me tell you, there is a God, and He controls everything. Bow down before HIm. (another problem for non-believers)
A human cannot be the most high.
>>7227991
>because it is a given you fuck face OP. just believe in Historical and Dialectical Materialism and you can learn new things.
>People dont accept it because they think its too hard. Let me tell you, there is a dialectical and historical progression, and this directs everything. Bow down before the inevitable revolution and end of contradiction. (another problem for bourgeois)
>Tradition and idealism cannot be the most high.
>>7226463
>>7228005
he meant, they think its too easy because the people dont think thats all there is to it.
>>7227989
>implying they just stood there staring at the sun for no good reason
Because only in this era do we have reddit to tell us that was a bad idea.
>religiously charged pilgrims
Except many atheists also saw it too.
>>7228186
>Because only in this era do we have reddit to tell us that was a bad idea.
They were staring at it based on prophecies they heard from some children who had a vision of Mary.
>Except many atheists also saw it too.
This might suprise you but the eyes of an atheist and those of a pilgrim are the same and that staring at the sun will trigger illusions and visions regardless of religious affiliation.
Looking to the sun to see no miracle is just as damaging as looking to it expecting to see one
>>7227532
Whatever helps you make it through the day. Just don't go bombing any abortion clinics, ya hear? ;)
>>7226811
>The only part of the bible I reject is original sin and the compulsion to its ethics.
Implying you can reject any part of the written word of god.
>>7226783
>A thing cannot, in the same respect and in the same way, move itself
> there is an unmoved mover
>>7227532
>There is a species superior to man?
Superior based on what criteria? You're presupposing an objective criteria on which you could measure every organism's "superiority".
