I was going to post this on /pol/ but you guys are much more philosophically astute,
Does the fall of communism prove the argument that humans are inherently evil to be correct? What does this mean for socialism or "democratic socialism" as it's being repackaged as now?
No but it helps
No, how could you ever prove something so trite as "all humans are inherently evil."
You can't even define evil because it's a spook.
The soviet model just proved that bureaucratic centralism doesn't work in the long run. The soviet style planning system had a number of important achievements to its credit. It introduced mass production and greatly increased the output of a number of key industrial sectors, such as oil and steel. It produced the huge number of weapons necessary to emerge victorious from World War II. It provided full employment. It produced the world’s first earth satellite. It invested heavily in human capital. Its educational system was good by international standards, and produced large numbers of qualified people. During the 1950s the USSR enjoyed a golden age with growth rates much in excess of those in the USA or UK. However, soviet planning also had a number of problems. These included: shortages of consumer goods; inability to take full advantage of the world market for goods, capital and people; slow home-grown technical progress; and living standards that lagged behind those in capitalist countries. In addition, the high growth rates of the 1950s obviously gradually declined.
The soviet model was based on the method of material balances which was first developed in the 1930s during the USSR's rapid industrialization; superior input-output style planning was never actually adopted because the material balance system had become to entrenched in the Soviet bureaucratic system.
I wouldn't say inherently evil.
Inherently self-interested, perhaps
it proved that the type of person who would specifically try to seize power in a vacuum are generally evil, or have the kind of mindset that would lead to evil
if youre self assured and unrealistic enough to believe your untested ideas dreamed up in german coffee houses should be tested on a country of that size then you shouldnt be allowed to govern anything
Humans are both evil and good, as one might expect if one had any experience with humans
>>7878202
>"democratic socialism" as it's being repackaged as now
>as now
Regarding your question OP, the answer is no. It does not. It just proves that centralized capitalism -AKA "communism"- couldn't sustain growth, nor provide an adequate resource allocation, when entering the information age.
>>7878252
Most of the stuff that was going on behind the scenes with the elites were released after the fall of the USSR,,. the thing is most of the party were actually committed communists who really believed what they were doing was for the greater good. Stalin wasn't using his power to just fuck a bunch of hot chicks or something, they were actually discussing mundane topics like international development and capital accumulation most of the time. It just shows that flawed decisions can lead to big fuck ups.
>>7878202
First, what is evil? How would you define that ?
Here is a good talk on the subject matter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLp7vWB0TeY
And who says human are inherently evil? I don't think i've ever heard anyone propose that. Self interested, self invested, brutish and violent? Sure! But those things in them self aren't evil. (see the talk) Lion's eat animals but they aren't evil. Humans use force and violence but that does not make them evil.
If you watch the link above then move on to this for more in dept information on political systems/ideology and evil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY7a1RXMbHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZnqLvLbLV0
There is nobody that breaks Evil and ideology down as good as Jordan B Peterson. The man is a fucking genius. I wish i could explain to you better but its all in the talks.
>>7878312
>And who says human are inherently evil? I don't think i've ever heard anyone propose that.
any christian
>>7878202
So humans are always going to act in their best interest. They always will. They learn early on that acting in other's interest is shitty and ends in sadness for both parties. Of course, acting indirectly to benefit yourself still can and often is in a humans interest, so don't knock out "altruism" altogether.
Communism puts a person in power. So does socialism, so does government. When you put a HUMAN in power, and grant him power to project force, then he will not use it reasonably. He is acting in some one else's interest. He can't possibly know what is most efficient for one person, how can he for an entire nation. Additionally, human nature will cause him to act in his own interest.
so yeah fuck commies
>>7878322
>I believe they say every human is a sinner,not evil. Those are different.
mere equivocation, you'd make a fine catholic
>>7878322
>I believe they say every human is a sinner,not evil. Those are different.
What is the difference?
>If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
- Jesus Christ, Matthew 7:11 and Luke 11:13
>fall
>prove
>humans
>inherent
>evil
>be
>correct
all spooks
>>7878202
Communism != socialism != bernie's " democratic socialism"
>Fall of communism
The thing is, communism as a geopolitical phenomenon based upon the model of the Soviet Union fell. Communism is an ideal, and one that - between China's confused but sincere market ideas, the crazy third-world rebels who still believe Mao was right, and the continuing creeping popularity of Marx himself - can hardly be said to have 'fallen'. As long as capitalism exists communism will be its shadow.
>>7878434
>Communists around the world have switched over to market and capital based economies and domestic policies
>C-China is communists s-s-so its just evolving!
>C-Cuba is just letting up on the choke chain!
>V-V-vietnam has lots of people's factories run by totally disinterested socialist groups!
>M-Marx is more popular than ever!
Laughing in real life desu senpai
It does not prove we are inherently evil, but rather it opens more opportunity for us to do so. Temptation to rig the system is rampant in more socialist societies.
>>7878445
I like your use of stuttering greentext in lieu of an argument. Geez, is this really the best /pol/ can do these days?
>>7878445
As Lenin himself said, those countries were not socialist to begin with, they were state capitalist. Those countries did not flip, they were already market based with capital.All that those countries show is that Leninism is a counter-revolutionary ideology which can never bring about communism.
The point the were trying to make is that wherever there is capitalism, there must be a resistance to it.
>>7878202
> fall of communism
Communism was never realized. All those countries were state capitalist. All Leninism and derivatives of it are counter-revolutionary movements, aimed at getting state power by using the very people who want to destroy the state.
>>7878202
>people who still can't tell the difference between democratic socialism and social democracy
Anybody play Deus Ex? What do you think of a robot AI running government? No ambitions other than running government as efficiently as possible for the benefit of most.
>>7878202
The democratic socialism being proposed by centre-leftists like Sanders isn't exactly democratic socialism in theory, more-so social democracy. It's a center point between capitalism and socialism, so the failures of communism can't be applied any more than the failures of capitalism can.
>>7878202
Not really just something more like "Really large centralised bureaucracy without an involved democracy makes systems stagnant and power structures fall apart" Ironically enough modern day China and Russia actually prove "NON centralised groups of competing businesses DON'T need democracy to function and can even do better in capitalist terms because of it."
>>7878202
>the fall of communism may prove inherent human evil
How retarded are you?
>>7878202
No, because nothing is inherently good or evil.
>>7879181
Too many ways to fuck up
>>7878202
It does prove that most "communist" leaders are concealed dictators and that most people have an exploitable combination of stupidity and egotism.
>>7879181
"Don't stake your lives on a savior machine"
>>7880195
u know it
>>7878445
someday, kouhai. someday.
>>7879848
yeah, /lit/
>>7879181
Sounds to me like a good replacement for the delusion you lost when the Berlin Wall fell
AI government based on videogames, lmao... commies are essentially retards who will never amount to anything on their own right, and therefore find a preposterous idea to LARP about.
>>7879181
pipe dream that's both logistically impossible and stupid to begin with.
why not just pray for utopia?
>>7881153
dude what the fuck
It only proved that
a) midly extent groups of individuals will always blame others for their suffering or lack of comfort. In this case, they were anecdotically right since they really had no (legal) choice on how to produce and consume goods and resources.
b) An organized state that tries to take care of every aspect of social life that is already ruled by "inertia" and also try to lead it in a certain direction will not only betray its own expectations, but also end up collapsing itself. Militant planification is inefficient and, in the end, self destructive. Spartan model wasn't so inherently destined to failure since it was built from a lifestyle, not an intention.
c) Marx's failure was attributing revolutionary potential to the working class. Revolutions happen when a lifestyle clashes with another lifestyle, and he knew that when he talked about bourgeoise revolutions and changing from ancient society to feudalism. But the working class does not clash with the capitalist class: they are both part of the same system. The proletariat cannot fund a solid alternative lifestyle to capitalist property. Cooperative firms would be a thing if they were predominantly chosen by workers, but they aren't. Planification is just intentional.
state capitalism would've probably worked better in america
>>7878202
No. Communism isn't about humans being inherently good and it didn't failed because of "evil", it failed because pretty much because of the pressure of neoliberal capilatist countries (EEUU, RFA...) which were against communism
>>7878202
>Does the fall of communism prove the argument that humans are inherently evil to be correct?
Not really - it highlights the difficulty we've had as a species since the enlightenment though, mostly the belief that we're rational beings and that by applying scientific knowledge we can perfect society or even humanity itself, the ridiculous belief we still have in human progress .
You should pick up John Gray's book Black Mass - it's all about Utopian ideologies, their root, failure, and relation to religion, has a fair bit on the Soviet experiment, Nazis etc...
