Why do you guys hate "genre fiction" so much? Horror, sci-fi, fantasy, etc. Even stuff like mystery.
I don't understand the vitriol and I think you guys are just being needlessly contrarian to what's considered popular. I understand that there can be poorly done genre fiction, but any literary (or artistic) medium can be poorly done. That doesn't mean the whole subset is bad.
It's like, what? People enjoying expansive, well-crafted worlds of fright, futurism, and/or fantasy, and getting enamored with and engrossed in the lore? Wow, how dare they, no they should be chugging hardcore philosophy like men possessed or rereading Infinite Jest for the third time.
We've been over this many times already.
Lit fic makes you think about literature and from literature about people.
gen fic makes you think about the substance of the genre, from there the subjects of the exposition of that genre then from there to the human experience. The experience is not as pure.
>>7738456
All of us started out reading that shit. You get over it, it isn't contrarian, it's called being an adult with actual imagination and human feeling and not at the whim of a puppet master pulling strings of lowest common denominator human emotions. After awhile you BREAK FREE of the strings, you say I believe I've read this one 100 times, I believe this is mere distraction! Watch television and film for immersive distraction, they are far far better at it.
>>7738486
i'm surprised you can type so precisely with that fedora brim tipped do low over your eyes
>>7738481 is a better reason, it's not that genre fiction is bad, really - it can be a good story and very well-written - but you just need to ask whether you're reading for a good story or reading for the consumption of ideas.
Lit fic can have a good story but the idea and intent of the author is at the forefront. Gen fic is vice versa (sci-fi stories, for example, almost as a rule contain some question of morality beneath their topmost layer of spectacle)
in short, feel free to read and enjoy Steven King but it's hard to imagine it can give you the same food for thought as straightforward literature. and /lit/ is, primarily, comprised of people who are clawing at the gates for only the most substantial food for thought.
>>7738456
For we can consider an actual object in two opposite ways, purely objectively the way of genius grasping the idea of the object, or in the common way, merely in its relations to other objects and its relation to our own will. considered in the first way, it is a means to knowledge of the Idea, the communication of which is the work of art. In the second case , the imaginary object is used to build castles in the air, congenial to selfishness, and to ones own whim, which for the moment delude and delight; thus only the relations of phantasms so connected are really ever known. Perhaps he(the second case) will right down the delusions of his imagination, and these will give us ordinary novels of all kinds which entertain those like him and the public at large, since the readers fancy themselves in the position of the hero, and them find the description very 'nice'
>>7738720
I understand what he's saying but he doesn't make genre fiction sound unappealing.
>>7738720
>right down
>>7739219
That's the whole point. Everybody can like gen fic because most of it is pure escapism and usually paints the protagonist (the author/reader) in a good light.
It's fast food. Not a gourmet meal.
>>7738481
Except that's not true.
See: Phillip K. Dick.
He was instrumental in changing sci-fi from pulp to something that can explore themes that literary fiction does as well. Also, sci-fi courses are being taught in high schools presently. Apparently there are six divisions of sci-fi literature and one of my colleagues had said that it will be increased to eight. Sci-fi is more prominent now, than ever.
>>7739293
generally, hence Frankenstein is both
>>7738456
People here have a problem with a) memes and b) almost everyone actually reading quite a bit of fantasy and sf. It's also important to note that genre fiction here is a misleading term because it implies that all fantasy is somehow genre fiction and free of literary merritt when it has authors such as Wolfe or Peake who are top tier literally authors to whom the genre is an aesthetic used for further exploration of themes that are explored best in fictional worlds.
While good genre fic does exist, the vast majority of popular genre fic suffers from serious self-insertion problems. They are written specifically to cater to the readers' fantasies: the protagonist will be naturally talented and often go from a bland regular life to being a 'chosen one.' That's why the manchildren who still fanboy over Harry Potter find it so funny to tell each other they're still waiting for their Hogwarts acceptance letter. They don't see the comedy there.
If you read enough of this stuff and actually care to pay attention instead of consuming it thoughtlessly, you'll see identical stories again and again, identical characters, identical edginess and quips. Eventually you get tired of flawless main characters fighting as underdogs against Big Bad(TM).
I don't hate genre fiction. Lovecraft, Ballard, Ellroy, and Gibson are among my favorite authors. Even the esteemed Harold Bloom has high praise for certain works of sci-fi and fantasy. There is plenty of genre fiction that is thematically and aesthetically satisfying.
>>7739296
Frankenstein is, like, a bizarre casserole of classic romanticism and sci-fi seasoned with horror. Despie its adherence to such "genre" standards, I can't understand how people could ever call it "bad".
It's also my favorite literary mythos, like fuck man I just love every single thing about the novel, conceptually.
>>7739341
>Even the esteemed Harold Bloom has high praise for certain works of sci-fi and fantasy.
Do you know which?
>>7739336
>Eventually you get tired of flawless main characters fighting as underdogs against Big Bad(TM).
Well I don't think that's the intrinsically the fault of the genre. It's just that, yeah, fantasy and sci-fi and horror kind of make for easier springboards for lazy, stale storytelling. But then those are just bad stories in harmless genres.
...so I think we're mostly in agreement, actually.
>>7739352
A Voyage to Arcturus
Little, Big
The Left Hand of Darkness
>>7739352
Borges for instance.
>>7739352
Not him, but isn't the one novel Bloom wrote literally a fanfiction sequel to a sci-fi/space fantasy?
Although for the record, despite its rave reviews Bloom has apparently disowned his own novel because he just didn't like it in retrospect. Which I think is kind of hilarious.
>>7739359
Gonna have to try again.
>>7739343
because she wrote her life into it, quite literally actually
>>7738456
Reading literary fiction provides high pleasure.
Reading genre fiction provides lower pleasure.
The former thus provides units of utility of higher quality.
Therefore it is more beneficial to read literary fiction. Besides, as Mill said, we should always pursue higher pleasures.
>>7739390
>my ass says it.
>>7739293
Sf is not prominent now, as it's actually dying in readership numbers.
Writers like LeGuin and PKD have definitely written works competitive to high literature though.
>>7739390
I dunno man, I have a lot more fun reading sci-fi than Sad People With Sad Lives Ask Questions: A Novel.
And literally what kind of ass-pulled subjectivity is "units of utility of higher quality"?
I get that your argument is "because it not smart and it bad" but you (and Mills) are going to have to argue in a way that isn't "my smug opinion is better than yours, caveman"
>>7739418
Fucking wew. Really entertaining post.
>>7739368
My favorite connection is how Shelly was miserably pregnant for, like, 80% of the writing process, and her first kid was premature and kicked it early. It's subjective, but reading the novel as this agonzing labor of life-making that's all for naught (the production of a "faulty" child) is fulfulling for me. The whole chapter where Victor is building the creation is effectively his "pregnancy".
But there's a veritable laundry list of autobiographical easter eggs in that book that I am just a sucker for.
>>7739432
Want another one? Mary Wollstonecraft, her mother, died giving birth to her. So in another way SHE was the child that brought disaster to the parent.
>>7739461
And don't forget that the first familial death in the novel is Victor's mother, who caught scarlet fever while (against protestations) attending to her sick adopted daughter. You get involved with kids, especially ones that aren't natural, and you die.
The weather also plays a huge role in my appreciation of the story, considering the whole thing was thought up by Shelley literally on a dark and stormy night with Lord Byron and Percy.
>>7738456
Much of it is cookie cutter and indispensable. There was pure shite in the past but the Canonization has gotten rid of them.
>>7738481
>>7738533
>Lit fic can have a good story but the idea and intent of the author is at the forefront. Gen fic is vice versa
I really don't think that's true.
Science fiction in particular is amazingly good at working with large abstract conceits. The idea that some story only can communicate worthwhile ideas if they're familiar to the reader's/author's own experience is ridiculous. There's no good reason to restrict what constitutes valuable literature based purely on the setting and tradition of writing it comes from.
Yes, a lot of genre fiction is straightforward, formulaic play aimed at entertainment, but that's true of human communication in general, yeah?
>>7739543
This a thousand times. City On The Edge of Forever brought more amazing concepts and ideas to fruition than some Salman Rushdie book ever could because of the setting and situations being so absurd that scope became a non-issue, whereas it will always be with more grounded forms of art.
