Just finished pic related (I'm a few months behind the times). Oh my, /lit/. I don't know if I've seen such a politely savage takedown of the current state of Secular Humanism.
Any thoughts on Submission and/or Houellebcq more generally?
Let's hear yours. I haven't read any Houellebecq yet, I don't read much fiction, but I've been considering it, he strikes me as a similar figure as Michael Haneke.
Is it truly savage, or just edgy?
>>7702672
It's not particularly edgy.
I think my thoughts are largely expressed in my first post; not being French or even European, I can't speak to Submission's accuracy, but the triumph of a secularism being followed by ennui and then a cold pragmatism resulting from a life without faith, and that pragmatism then leading to an insincere (or is it sincere? It is hard to tell) conversion to whatever new movement comes along that promises something sacred, makes for a good subject.
It's a quick read at any rate - it took me a little over half a day.
>>7702672
Different anon, I don't think ge goes full edgy, though I suspect some will accuse him of doing so.
I don't want to spoil the book for you, but I'll say this much: there is plenty of chance for edge, and you can even see some edgy revolution stuff in the background for a second, but the foreground is much more muted. The main character is interesting because he isn't a standout in some big cultural upheaval, he's a relatively normal person caught up in this, and doesn't become any more than just that.
When it comes to the ideas, I don't think he's being edgy at all, especially because many of the events in the book are happening in France right now, with the FN gaining ground rapidly, and the formation of a new Muslim political party. He uses the novel to raise some very valid questions about the place of Islam in a secular humanist Europe, and also how religion is seen in general.
>>7702736
>When it comes to the ideas, I don't think he's being edgy at all, especially because many of the events in the book are happening in France right now,
>le muslims are taking over europe meme
Houellebecq is the only diagnostician of the ills of late liberalism able to provide his critique to a sizeable audience beyond academia to be honest.
Not only in Soumission, but in all his novels.
>>7702832
Jihadis gunning down people in the streets with AKs wasn't a thing in Paris until the day his novel got released, senpai.
>>7702672
It's actually quite subtle, which is what makes it brilliant. People thought it would be a blatant attack on Islam, but it turns out to be a smug exposure of the lack of vitality the common Western ideology of liberalism has, showing how tired and apathetic we have become as a culture, how we're pretty much push-overs.
But he doesn't really do it in a 'wake up sheeple' way, he doesn't present the decline of liberalism as something lamentable. Which is in a way way more edgy than the in your face edge people expected.
>>7702613
Haven't read this, but elementary particles is one of my favorite books, the guy can write a sad story.
I remember I used to think he was writing fairy tales / romance novels for men.
It was fascinating to get to the explanation for how Muslims took over France in the first place, at least for me as an American.
If the US faced a choice between a Muslim and a fascist I guarantee you Americans would pick the fascist.
>>7702832
Stats don't lie, senpai.
>>7703172
>lack of vitality the common Western ideology of liberalism has, showing how tired and apathetic we have become as a culture, how we're pretty much push-overs.
any liberal doctrine is exactly this lack of vitality about the community. there is not lack of vitality when it comes to your self though: people still have faith in the concept of indivisibility of the in-dividual that the classical liberals and new liberals have been teaching for centuries.
the problem of the liberals, classical and new, is that that they disintegrate once that they lack of an enemy. liberalismS work well when explicit authoritative systems are on their soil; otherwise, there remains only the praxis of leisure, available to the masses by the entertainment industry, permitted by the faith in their Human rights and their sciences (and the faith that science backs up the HR and that the HR backs up the sciences).
today, even leisure even is ''ethical'', typically in tourism, so that you can claim to endorse the liberal mores while enjoying yourself.,.
the problem is that positivism and structuralism have been the pinnacle of the liberalismS and the liberals, of any kind, cannot get out of their post-positivism and post-structuralism. they have no idea on how to save their doctrines.
so today, they try to incorporate anew the religion, the religious phenomenon as they put it in social sciences, after admitting that their liberalismS is just individual hedonism and social apathy.
The greatest writer of our time. He exposes the putrefying hypocrisy of the hegemonic left with unsurpassed precision.
At first, his work reminded me of Dostoevsky, but now I realize that he is really a Nietzschean -- Houellebecq is someone who eradicates the lies without mercy.
>>7702832
Demographically speaking, they slowly but surely are.
I honestly thought it was pretty lazy. Character wasn't explored particularly well or interestingly, Islam wasn't either. I agree with the underlying criticisms of Western secularism and its response to Islam, but it needs more than that to be good literature.
>>7703158
It was a marketing stunt
>>7703211
He's not a nietzschean, his main philosophical influences are the positivist and Schopenhauer.
Incredibly prophetic how he spends the entire novel calling French secularists spineless cucks, and the critical reaction to the novel's release was "Oh, thank God it's not actually that offensive to Islam."
>>7703517
Yes, that's the beauty of it to be honest.
>>7703211
ironic post or no
>>7703215
Right, and in the 1960s demographic trends showed that billions of people should have died from hunger and overpopulation by the 1970s. But things change.
>>7702613
>politely savage takedown of the current state of Secular Humanism
I think that is most of his fiction
and i got done with it a few weeks ago and loved it, did you look up the release date.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4LXMR-RdQQ&ab_channel=NewYorkInstitutefortheHumanitiesatNYU
also here is a group of lefties trying to process the book, but they are to afraid to talk about it
>>7702613
Read Hillaire' Bellocs Great Heresies, he goes right up against secular humanism as a travesty against God.
Also, I enjoyed Soumission and laughed alot. The fucking reheated indian food was making me laugh every time he referred to it.
>>7703813
I'm half-an-hour into that video, and holy shit: can they keep dancing around the novel without actually talking about it much longer? This is absurd.
>>7703154
Underrated post.
>>7703888
That is why I love it its either they are scared or dumb.
it shows you why Literature stagnated right now the ones with voice in the industry are all pussies.
i love the part where the women thinks that you need to talk about the fucking crusades when talking about how bad "modern" Islam is
>>7703670
Muslims have higher reproduction rates even when living in the same society at the same level of wealth as non-muslims.
i understand he was entertaining the alarmist perspective with the islamic conquering to prove a point.
but i don't think the question is WHAT will replace western culture, but IF something can come in and move the hearts and minds of a disillusioned and 'decadent' population.
we already have options and we don't choose them. there are already mosques you can attend and convert within if you so choose. why would it take a grand chess game of political takeover to get people moving again? we don't seem to be willing regardless.
the west seems resistant to meaningful engagement in almost every area of personal life and society.
>>7703840
>Read Hillaire' Bellocs Great Heresies, he goes right up against secular humanism as a travesty against God.
this is a good advice
>>7703670
I mean they did, didn't they. What were africa or asia, at that time, doing other then staving to death because they couldn't feed themselves.
>>7703211
>hegemonic left
the hegemonic right, barring evangelical christians of course, also presuppose secular humanism. its just the free market capitalist version. ayn rand is the example par excellence.
he is also demonstrably not nietzchean. nietzsche rejected the moralizing premises of organized religion (as well as uh, morality in general). one of the features of organized religion that nietzsche detested was its forbidding of worldly pleasures, especially relating to the body. houellebecq is a provocateur, and i like provocateurs, but he is not nietzschean for it. even if not himself, nietzsche would find no reason to abstain from pork, alcohol, and so on.
>>7705442
>neo-liberal "conservatives"
>right wing
americans
>>7703813
Maybe you have to be European, but none of those people in that panel point out how immigration has changed the face of basically every (Western) European city. The fact that that woman is pointing out typical Foucaltian tropes (even mentioning him by name) tells me how delusional these people are. Submission is our stance towards those who attack people, institutions, and buildings in our countries, and when these attacks happen the only thing we do is we stay apathetic, and become only militant against those who want to fight back, but not against the actual perpretators. It is mindboggling and just sad to see how we have all become so delusional, blind, and cowardly.
>>7705506
>>7705506
>immigration has changed the face of basically every (Western) European city.
they will never say this or see it cuz they are rich as fuck and never go to where it has had the most effect, also, they will that is a right-wing conspiracy theory,
>>7705359
Nah, billions didn't die, just millions.
>>7706150
people are aware
they just don't care
>>7703211
>hegemonic left
You seriously think communists would have let this happen? This guy is correct >>7705442. It was the capitalist right-wing that wants cheap labor and to expand markets to more consumers so they can get more money.
