Who here is enrolled, has completed, or is considering a degree in Creative Writing?
Pros?
Cons?
Yeah, yeah, no one can teach you how to write. If you know how to write, you'll make it. Anyone got anything positive to say on the M.F.A.?
Some of the most painfully untalented people I've ever met were people with M.F.A.s
I had a prof pull me aside one time and told me basically, "If you want to write, then go write. Studying writing isn't learning how to write."
Still think it's some of the best advice I ever got.
>>7684195
>Anyone got anything positive to say on the M.F.A.?
I always used to hire them for menial office jobs, because I knew that nothing better would ever come along. They would sit at their desks doing data entry, moannnnning about how this audition fell through, or this bitch was hotter than her, or that she almost had the part but fucking x celebrity walked in, or that this manuscript or that was about to be accepted. And they never quit. They just went on and on until they drove to JFK one day and flew home, never to return.
>>7684195
>Anyone got anything positive to say on the M.F.A.?
It isnt a masters in sociology or psychology
>>7684195
Doesn't seem that hard to dig up the positive aspects. The top programs in the US pay your living expenses and provide guidance so you can finish your novel or book of short stories.
don't pay for an MFA, expect it to lead to a job, or have real world utility. I guess if your parents are paying it doesn't really matter, just dont take on debt
>>7684292
Do they really pay, and which ones?
I'm genuinely considering going for it now.
>>7684433
http://themfayears.com/fully-funded-programs/
I'm doing a writing bachelor, second year. So far the classes are somewhat helpful for improving workflow and efficiency, but really I went into the degree because I'm already good at it. I expect most people taking it will definitely improve.
There are job opportunities, but if your only interest is to make money go do business or some shit.
>>7684195
I'm studying an Undergraduate English Literature and I'm in the Third Year, we were offered Creative Writing as a module and I took it.
We were taught by the author of pic-related for the first term. (He also taught me in first year and with his background in philosophy and classics we connected). Sadly he left at the end of term, to my horror.
I only took it because I enjoy writing and believe I have some sort of talent for it, and therefore can get a decent grade whilst having fun.
>>7684438
Thank you, this is very interesting.
Do i get the insurance money if my country already pays for it? Seeing as i'd be moving abroad
OP here,
If I could do an M.F.A. for relatively cheap at one of the top schools in the country, should I take it? I'm also considering pursuing my Master's in Philosophy. Two different fields, I'm aware, but I enjoy writing and I am very much indulged in philosophical talk regarding society and politics. I feel we all have some sort of social responsibility in the world and I cannot decide if I want to pursue that in a more artistic means, or in a more practical, yet, theoretical way.
I'm currently studying English and Philosophy as an undergrad and it puts an interesting juxtaposition in my life as it shows me the beautiful things done through the literary aspect of life, but it lacks in comparison to all of the practical use that comes out of becoming a philosopher/politician. Any thoughts?
>>7684195
I'm a student in a fully funded MFA program. 2nd semester for me.
No one in the program assumes that writing can be taught. It's just a low-pay learning/networking/writing space that includes deadlines.
It's very good, because I'm writing more than I ever have, and I'm getting a better and better sense of the contemporary poetry scene.
AMA if you like
>>7684474
Did you watch the last season of Girls?
Is it like that?
>>7684446
What job opportunities?
>>7684468
hey op I'm: >>7684474
I'd recommend taking a year off after undergrad. It'll give you a little more perspective on what you want to do. Also time to work on the writing sample, and it looks good for the application to have some life-experience outside of school.
I think the MFA is a good thing for me so far. Not because I'm getting taught how to write or some bullshit--but just because I'm reading and writing more than ever.
One thing I find obnoxious is the intensity of PC policing the very left-leaning sides of academia of which mfa land is def a part
>>7684206
>audition
>part
Nice pasta about actors.
>>7684489
haven't seen it
>>7684474
What do you write about?
Are you allowed to be 'deep' and intertextual?
Any poetry, or is that a whole different MFA
>>7684490
Practically anything where writing is a large part.
However, none of the stable ones are very creative. Editing, copywriting, communications, advertising, journalism (dying), social media PR, etc.
Technical writing is (relative to most other writing careers) ludicrous you can get a major or minor in a relevant science.
More creative fields like screenwriting, writing novels, poetry, etc. are difficult to enter (and what every person in this degree seems to think they will be doing at the other end), but as long as you're reasonably free of delusion, have some actual skill and are willing to work hard they're all possible.
>>7684491
Yeah, I was considering taking a year off as well. I've just been advised several times not to as I may find something comfortable during that year and lose any motivation to continue my education, but I doubt that'd be the case as I always have education in the back of my head.
Really, I'd just do the M.F.A. for the writing, but I don't know how the system is organized. I'm scared that the system preps you into a certain writing style that will not really allow you to flex yourself and would just appeal to the individuals who read literary magazines and the such. It's difficult to elaborate..
As for your last point, I totally had that experience in an introductory course. Hated it.
Also, one finally notion. With society today as it is, or rather, our generation, being wimps, is criticism in the M.F.A. actually draconian with its approach? Will I hear negativity as much as I would positives? All I heard in my introductory course were positives and even the professor (with an M.F.A from Ann Arbor) had trouble really coming off strict with the criticism. Ideally I'd like a professor who could shut down every cliche and everything wrong with my piece.
Different MFA here,
I'm in a program that's rated well on the P&W lists, also a funded program. I can provide/corroborate info. I'm doing fiction, so I may be a slightly different perspective than the other guy.
>>7684468
Apply to only schools you'd love to go to, and then only go if funded. If not funded, wait til next year like the other mfanon said. I would have liked to take a year off, but I ended up going because I got the acceptance/funding I wanted.
>>7684491
The librul stuff is interesting here. The less well known writers in the program are super-left, and pander very hard to the handful of SJW types in the program. Then the couple of superstar writers we have just kind of do and say what they want. He doesn't fuck with them, but he clearly will not advise their thesis when the time comes.
Question for other MFAnon: Do you have to do a thesis? If so, when do you figure out who will advise you directly, if anybody?
Also, doing any writing workshops this summer?
>>7684510
I write poetry mostly. So yeah I applied to the program in poetry, but this doesn't keep me from taking whatever courses I want or even doing my thesis in prose/fiction. My stuff leans toward the narrative/lyric. Trying more and more to bring the internet's transformation of language/communication into my writing.
But I mean my program has a lot of range. You have some people writing narrative/lyric poetry, and then you have people who are writing stuff that's unintelligible on the level of sense--and is really just crazy wordplay all over the page. Also people in the fiction camp writing realist stuff and then some people writing shit where people give birth to dogs.
Not sure exactly what "deep" means, but I'm pretty surprised by the wide range of knowledge (in lit/philosophy/languages/other fields) many of the other mfa-ers demonstrate day to day.
Can get a bit tiring actually as there's a bit of intellectual competition--a kind of assumption that you'll have interesting intellectual commentary to make at all times.
I think it's worth doing if you can get full funding. But don't pay anything out of pocket for it.
>>7684539
Yeah we have to do a thesis. I'm not sure on the specifics of how it goes and such, as I've just been trying to get my bearings this first year. Probably have to start honing in on things the end of the 2nd year. (3 year prog w/ guaranteed 4th year of funding if needed)
As far as PC stuff goes: i think I'm just learning that I really need to choose my words with some people. It's odd because I think of myself as very left wing, but I find some of the hyper-political word scanning a bit stifling from time to time.
My program apparently has a rep for being "experimental"--something I didn't know when I applied, and i think that attracts a certain ethos.
But no I haven't thought about anything for the summer as far as workshops and shit go.
What about you?
>>7684522
>system, style, etc.
That's certainly a valid concern. I would say yes and no, depending on the program. Some of the really big names definitely churn out every similar writers, while some have a broad spectrum. A good way to avoid going to an MFA mill type place is just to read stuff by the profs and recent grads. If it's all super similar and/or in that style, you'll want to avoid that program like the plague. Breadth is what you want from the staff and grads.
>criticism
You will definitely be told no, there are no more kid gloves or puss workshops. It isn't likely anyone will be a dick, but nobody most of the workshop is going to be on fixing your piece instead of how good and perfect it came out.
Protip: join the MFA draft group on facebook, even if you're only thinking about it. It goes by year, and is invite only, so MFA faculty can't get in. So look for Draft '16 and request to get in. After that, you can post more program specific questions there because there are plenty of people in the group who are already in programs.
I'm planning on doing a Ph.D. after my Master's... but if I could get a fully-funded MFA in between, should I?
>>7684522
I don't know about other programs as much, but I know at mine that you can write any style you want and people will meet you half way. No one is pushing an aesthetic agenda, as far as I can tell.
I have yet to encounter the kind of brutal criticism I read about in diff writers' memoirs etc. At my program people will be honest with you, but I find that workshops here also emphasize expansion-----so not so much how will this one poem get improved in this one line, but how can we expand this entire concept for the writing of more, better, interesting poems. (same for stories I'd imagine)
>>7684565
Ah, I'm on a two year track, so in the coming months we'll be trying to team up with our advisers. We have the option for a 3rd as well, but I really just want to get on with my life.
I feel the same about the PC, I have to watch my words around some more than others, and that made de facto cliques here. It's bizarrely high school. We all play nice in class, but one half hangs out at one bar, and the other half does what the fuck ever.
I'm going to apply to a workshop close to home, just so I have a reason to head that way, and then I'm applying to the Skidmore College workshop, because I got recommended by a prof for a special scholarship to do it for free.
OP here again.
Really helpful thread. Also thank you M.F.A. students.
>>7684606
The push for expansion is interesting. We try to be sparing about that, unless a story really does feel incomplete, otherwise we just stick to what we have on the page. We may say more indefinite things that will bring about better detail/more cohesive plot, but nothing that would significantly expand a piece.
>>7684612
Oh ok that's pretty cool. Hope you get in.
Funny to see another mfa person on /lit/.
>>7684643
Yeah here (on poetry side of things) seems like people are thinking a lot about sequences of poems/chapbooks and even full length books that explore a single concept/idea/universe. Which is something I hadn't thought much about. So the expansion is more outside the individual poem than within it.
Do you get useful criticism in your program? I've gotten some good comments but I don't think I've been here long enough to single out the voices of people I trust. Though I'm starting to get an idea.
>>7684625
No problem, glad this thread hasn't degenerated into STEM trolling.
If you are considering applying as a senior, keep in mind:
>research due dates in summer, some of them come as early as October
>polish your writing sample
>GRE scores are typically a formality, don't break your back (or bank) on them
>make nice with 3 profs. You'll need them for letters of recommendation. Ask very nicely, and thank them profusely.
>don't waste the money applying anywhere you are iffy about going
>most people don't ever get in, if you get in during your first two years of trying, you're doing something right
>cover letters are stupid, but ALWAYS read the instructions carefully
A creative writing degree is worse than toilet paper because it everyone needs toilet paper while a creative writing degree reflects very badly on your character, judgement, and intelligence.
>>7684663
Oh, that makes more sense now. Most of us are thinking story collection already, so we're very focused on staying within the story in workshop, though we won't ignore someone if they explained their thesis and asked if the story fit.
I get pretty useful criticism for the most part, and some stand out as much better than others. I have one person I always read for line by line editing, and a couple I look to more generally. The majority I listen to, but take or leave, and one person I just throw their comments into the trash when I get home. I've already workshopped four pieces with this group though, and because we're small I got an idea pretty quickly.
>>7684664
yeah i second all this.
Many of the fully funded programs have sub 5% acceptance rates--many lower than that. So it's pretty competitive.
I remember in the MFA draft seeing people who'd applied like 3 times.
>>7684663
I forgot to ask, are you doing AWP this March? If you are I'll buy you a drink.
>>7684664
Most of the universities in my state don't require a GRE of any sort. Is it still advised to take it?
Also, relatively speaking, how difficult is the selection process? Have you subjectively seen terrible writers in your course that your professor thinks otherwise?
>>7684689
Remember that guy from last year that tried to get everyone to leave the group after they were accepted? iirc he's applied for the past 8 years or something.
>>7684690
haha not this year--nice of you to offer. though the university's lit journal (5 hrs of my assistantship is interning there) will have a table. I bet it'll be fun out in LA.
Right now I'm hoping I'll get this research travel funding I applied for thru the graduate school tho.
Are you doing anything specific at awp or just checking things out?
>>7684691
I would just double check the MFA specific requirements, and if you know for a fact none of your preferred schools want it then go ahead and skip it.
I haven't seen objectively terrible writers, but I have seen some better than others.
The process if very difficult, my program is sub-10%.
Canadian Creative Writing Undergrad here.
I have no idea how US schools work. Do you think an MFA program would take someone from a (relatively shit) Canadian university?
Not paying tuition while writing all the time sounds like the best damn thing ever.
I didn't even know this kind of shit existed.
>>7684691
If you're only applying to programs that don't need it, then don't take it. But again I'd emphasize the importance of not >doing it for free cuz it's a degree that doesn't necessarily confer upon you any real professional/technical qualifications because getting a teaching job requires serious publishing.
>>7684695
no i dont but god that's kinda brutal. eight years. At that point, I dunno what you can keep telling yourself.
>>7684706
I'm hoping for muh funding for this, but the school is stringing us along. Not really doing much other than being there and checking things out, I'll go to my alma mater's reception and that's as definite as it gets.
>>7684716
MFAs are different from a lot of graduate work because they don't care too much about your background or GPA as long as you can write. I didn't have a stellar GPA (3.14) from undergrad, though mine did have a somewhat known writing program and journal. Just have a very strong writing sample, and you should get in just fine.
Some schools also provide special funding for international students.
>>7684716
Yeah they'd take you with a good enough writing sample. From what I understand, the application is weighted very heavily toward the quality of the writing sample.
I went to a small (and not prestigious) liberal arts college, and there are people in my prog from Brown, Cornell, etc. But also people who went to no name schools and didn't even graduate high school in the normal way.
>>7684195
A MFA puts you in conversation with other writers, both professional and your peers. If you can do that on your own, then a MFA is worthless. Like you said, no one can teach you how to write. So if you can find a group of writers and hang out with them, that's basically a MFA without a fucking piece of paper that says you can write.
>>7684745
Avoid anything unfunded.
Avoid anything with high acceptance rates.
Not really any programs I would talk shit on. FSU is an odd one because of how damn big it is. Apparently it is hard to stand out if you aren't super type A, so it isn't a good experience for a lot of people. But, good faculty. But, they're assholes. If you can hack it, good on you. I know people who have done well there, and others who hated it.
Columbia is known for letting James Frey (yes the Million Little Pieces one) headhunt from their students, and sign them into really shitty contracts.
University of New Orleans has been shady on their funding whenever people ask. So be wary of that one.
Ole Miss's faculty page may not be up to date. One of my profs wrote me letters of rec because she was friends with most of them, then she told me a few of them quit. I know Pendarvis left, and maybe Tom Franklin. I forget who else.
Looking at that picture gives me a weird sensation, like remembering a dream
>>7684745
Vanderbilt is one of the best funded programs in the country, you get stupid good money to go there.
McNeese is one of the few decent schools with a free application, so take advantage of that.
NYC MFAs if ever funded tend not to pay you enough to live in NYC.
>>7684195
I'll be starting a degree in screenwriting this fall. It's probably the only non-STEM degree worth dick where I go to school.
how are the ivy leagues for mfa programs?
Especially brown and harvard
>>7684716
do you go to Concordia? i think i'm going to start their creative writing program in September.
I'm not as hostile towards them as say Joshua Cohen but really it's become a fast-track system to getting published with a "cutesy", colorful book cover and so on. I read a lot of young writers in my country and most come from MFA backgrounds, and the past five or so books I've read by them have sucked pretty badly.
>>7684517
>Technical writing is (relative to most other writing careers) ludicrous
Do you mean to say 'lucrative'?
Don't give up the day job.
Sheesh.
>>7684565
Hi Chase, how's it going?
>>7685609
haha alright man, who's this?Holly?
>>7685620
haha nah, I'm on the Draft '16 group, and when you said 4 years of funding I immediately knew it was Alabama you were talking about. You're the only Drafter I know who goes there.
>>7684195
Here you go, OP.
http://www.pw.org/files/topfifty_secured.pdf
Don't take the rankings too seriously, just as a rough guide. Also, there's a lot of good info in there: length of program, funding, class size, etc.
>>7685643
who is this lol?
are you friends with Marcie, Nate etc?
>>7684494
>pasta
>implying I didnt have tons of aspiring writers of screenplays, "future" editorial staff, and people needing a side job writing the great american novel
From what I saw in 7 years hiring in a NY sales agency, an MFA is the worst thing you can get unless your dad runs shakespeare in the park
>>7685667
Lol you don't know me. I was in the Draft last year and didn't get in, now I'm giving it another shot. I wasn't really active at all in the group (too much drama sometimes, waaay too PC for my taste) but I remember you and a bunch of other people because you guys were pretty active and seemed to know what you were talking about.
Question to you MFAers: how's piracy looked upon in the programs/community? Because I've been pirating a lot of stuff from the professors I'd be interested in working with, yet I don't think that's something they'd like to hear.
>>7684195
If you know how to write going in, it can be a good enough ego-stroke to keep you going. If you know nothing about writing, you can learn how. Seems like a win-win, ehh?
>>7685693
do you have me on facebook?
if not add me. i'd be down to meet up if you want to.
>>7685712
Are you guys gonna fuck?
>>7685697
>paying goy shekels for some failed writer to tell you how to write
>allowing some self-published SJW to push her "themes" onto your writing
>spending your time with middle-class cucks writing short stories about that one time when they felt kinda sad
>surrounding yourself with feminists who hate white men and will interpret your willingness to answer a question aloud as "mansplaining" and sending your quotes to the "That Guy On Your MFA" twitter account
The ONLY reason to do an MFA is for the free time and the PTP on campus. Otherwise you're just a beta cuck in a cardigan nodding along to someone reading out their cyberpunk fanfiction.
>>7685722
That's the plan!
>>7685730
>The ONLY reason to do an MFA is for the free time and the PTP on campus
That's the only reason we all do it, faggot.
>>7685730
>>spending your time with middle-class cucks writing short stories about that one time when they felt kinda sad
>spending your time with middle-class cucks writing short stories about that one time when they felt kinda sad
>spending your time with middle-class cucks writing short stories about that one time when they felt kinda sad
it must be unbearable to deal with these people. couldnt you spend your time in the peace corps or something?
>>7685738
Well then enjoy your mediocrity. Meanwhile I am in my bedroom focusing on my memoir for at least eight hours a day. While you're "grabbing coffee" with Josh and Sophia I'm pacing back and forth my room waiting for a sentence to restructure itself into its ideal form inside my head. While you're "workshopping" a story you hastily scribbled the night before to keep up your grades I am gaining profound psychological insights about an individual from my past whose character becomes entirely revealed to me during my intense retrospection. While you're listening to some a creative writing teacher whose two poetry collections published by a now defunct publishing house in Sheboygan, Wisconsin and still lingering unbrowsed on the shelves of the bookstores of that town I am rushing to my desk to hastily scribble down an idea whose genius exists in equal proportion to the brevity of its existence in my thoughts. So I guess I should say "well done" for tricking Susie and Rachel into thinking that heavy flannel shirts imply an interesting personality, but honestly I wouldn't trade places for the world. My purity and dedication will prevail.
>>7684195
>If you know how to write, you'll make it
Literally wut
>>7685766
kek
>>7685693
Just don't tell them you pirated their books? It isn't hard. Some people get pissy if you ask them to sign a used copy of their book, some don't give a fuck. But since they don't make most of their money from touring like musicians they don't have the same "fuck, just download the music" attitude I've heard a lot at concert.
>>7685792
>But since they don't make most of their money from touring like musicians
Many do today. I'm friends with a published author and he spends a lot of his life travelling around the country crashing on people's couches etc just to sit in a Borders store for five hours signing the three copies of the book he's pushing. It's a depressing lifestyle and he's a benzo addict.
>>7685860
I wouldn't say a majority make most of their money from what I can tell, though they do book tours. If they get brought in by a school or something for a reading, and they're big enough, they can pull a decent appearance fee. But you have to be very big to make any real money.
>>7685766
Exquisite post.
How well read are your fellow MFA'ers? Are they anything like the crowd from alt lit, masturbating to whatever bullshit The New Yorker and McSweeney's are putting out while largely ignoring the cannon?
>>7685766
Knausgaard pls go
>>7686427
Pretty well read. The other day we had a discussion in class that ended up hating on alt-lit and Tao Lin.
Canon is interesting issue, because the point of an MFA is to write fiction you intend to publish, so it helps to know what is happening, so most of what we read is from the past 50 years at least. But, there is the expectation coming in that you are literate in the literary canon from undergrad, so I think somebody who was totally unaware of the their predecessors will do well. I haven't met anyone I couldn't discuss canon with so far, but there is nothing in place to prevent a savant from getting in without any knowledge.
McSweeney's isn't held in as high regard anymore, and the New Yorker is seen as a great place to publish when you're looking to place a book, but I don't think it's anyone's favorite.
>>7687145
*won't do well
>>7687145
are you the guy at SIUC?
Are there any downsides or shit you just have to put up with that people don't usually talk about regarding MFA's?
>Writting from concepts
>>7687219
To add:
Why would you write from concepts when another has already done it and better than you ever will?
How does journalism fit into this topic? I know it's not exactly creative writing but it's a pretty broad subject when you think about it. A lot of journalists have gone on to become great writers.
>>7687208
Nope, not at SIUC.
I think the biggest thing to put up with that isn't talked about is living on a stipend. Yes, you're fully funded but a lot of them give you a shitty stipend so you may have to work.
Waste of time & money frankly. IMO it might even hurt your writing to have antiseptic professors boxing you into how you're "supposed to" write.
If you're 100% sure you want to be a writer, get some BS job you can live with & write as much as humanly possible in your spare time. You'll have a lot more money coming in for 4-5 years anyway with none of the pointless debt. The struggle will be long & hard. You can't give up though. Plow right through until you reach your goal.
>>7685766
What have you written?
>>7687714
>Jason Kessler (that's me) is a fiction author from Charlottesville, Va, world traveler & graduate of the University of Virginia. I've lived "the best of times and the worst of times" to paraphrase Charles Dickens. I spent my life to find a purpose I could call my own in this world. I've looked for answers everywhere from Bangkok to Amsterdam, from the streets of New York City, to the quiet forests of Virginia where I make my home. I found some answers here & there. I realized that others aren't meant to be found. All that I've learned I endeavor to pass along to you in my writing, something I've worked on since I was a child clacking away on my mother's old typewriter. Lately, I've written a screenplay Oasis, a book of poetry Midnight Highway & most recently & my first novel Short Change. I’m currently working on a historical fiction novel, The Highwayman - Stand & Deliver. Visit www.jasonkessler.net for more info.
Um, this is terrible. I refuse to believe this guy has been through an MFA. This is Creative Writing 101 level right here.
>>7687714
I'm not really trying to argue about the value of the degree, but take your self promotion elsewhere. You clearly didn't even the thread, but came here to self-promote under the guise of argument/shitposting. If you had you would know that no one here is supporting paying for an MFA, but going if you get funded to go for free. It's 2-4 years to write without working, which is a lot better than what you suggest. :^)
>>7687747
>>7687765
Don't think he ever claimed to have one.
>>7687696
>living on a stipend
Do you mind telling us how much you get per year?
>>7687787
Between 10 and 15k, but next year it will be 5k more.
>>7687787
So money isn't a big issue for me, but some program offer around 7k.
funded MFA dudes-
is it really all about the writing sample for applications? Or do they just say that?
Post the samples you got in with pls
>>7687832
I won't post my sample, I have that out to some journals right now.
And yes, it really is all about the sample.
Here's the hierarchy of requirements from my experience:
1. Sample
2. Cover letter
3. Letters of rec
4. Transcripts
5. GRE
I'm British, so I could get my MFA (there's only a few programmes of that type here) funded under a new postgrad scheme, but it would be debt, not nasty debt, I wouldn't even have to start paying it back until I earned over a certain amount, but debt nonetheless. There's a chance I will be able to get it all funded via bursaries and prizes ect but obvs the odds are not in my favour. I've always thought i'd justify the expense with the argument
> this will allow me to teach creative writing
> cushdy lecturer life
> worth the debt
But I think finding a position would be difficult, anyone got any tips/advice?
>>7684204
>If you want to write, then go write.
This should be stamped into an obelisk in the middle of the ruins of every MFA program building in America
>pros
You have a degree
>cons
It's in Creative Writing
>>7684891
just went to a reading by the jones professor of writing at stanford
it was fucking horrible. worse than some of the things in crit threads
>>7685766
this pasta is perfectly cooked. give my regards to the chef
I hear what yall are saying about stipends and free time to write and interact but I really fear that MFA program will be a horrible circlejerk and I won't be able to tolerate anyone because they're all intellectual dick waggers. Also I hate the idea of treating writing as a career where connections can make or break you.
I just changed my degree after a year in creative writing. Best decision I ever made.
>>7688234
>Also I hate the idea of treating writing as a career where connections can make or break you.
That's what publishing is like, mostly. I know an editor (though not a big-time one) and from what he tells me nepotism is as much a thing in publishing as it is everywhere else.
I'm in the "MFAs are more worthless than toilet paper" camp, but then again that's going to become more and more true about all degrees outside of STEM (and even some within it) over the next 15-25 years as automation starts kicking in.
>>7687768
I've promoted some of my shit on /lit/ before and even I think what he did is embarrassing.
>>7688253
what did you change to?
>>7684206
my english teacher in highschool literally did what you said they did.
>>7687961
Your education shindig is different, I don't know what to say about it. I hear you don't suffer from the hell that is adjuncting as badly as we do, so it may be more or less worth it. >>7688048
You're missing a key part of the MFA. If you get funded, you are basically a neet with a better budget than welfare. You can ultimately blow off your profs and return all of your work to original form if you felt so inclined.
>>7688064
If has a writing prof, it is typically because they've been heard of. Or they're shit. Not much else and I don't know why.
>>7688234
I haven't really encountered the circlejerking and dick wagging, I touched on it earlier. You have to be careful you look at a program that encourages variety, because some are what you say. There is a degree of confirmation bias with all MFAs write alike, but there are some who are super typical MFA voice, and most of us rag on them for it. The shitty thing is these people tend to be the sociable people and connect well at conferences, and also it is who publishers want at the moment. (I really don't understand why MFAs get all the blame for publishers picking up the worst of us.)
Anecdotal evidence:
I turned in a pretty experimental story complete with changing perspectives and stream of consciousness and got actual helpful feedback. I wasn't told to restyle it as a New Sincerity piece or some shit.
>>7688308
Why do you think arts degrees will become mor worthless after automation? Arts are the one thing that are more or less robot immune, a lot of STEM stuff (unless you're on the cutting edge of a field) will be automated.
Your buddy is right about the nepotism etc. Knowing people helps. My prof who has placed in The Paris Review and the New Yorker said he knows for a fact most of those are solicited by the magazines. Also, most people once they become somewhat somebody have their agents shop their pieces around.
>>7684776
It's because it mimics the environment we evolved in. The edges of the forests and grassy plains, the watering hole, the undressed people frolicking about.
People have the same kind of feelings about golf courses, which closely mimic savannah environments.
You feel at home in such an environment. Your ancestors have lived there for thousands if not millions of years.
>>7688613
I think a lot of STEM is just more difficult to automate that quickly compared to arts degree type stuff. I hear journalism is already starting to become automated so it's only a matter of time before algorithms that can replicate fiction and poetry convincingly enough to pass for human come about. Everything can and probably will eventually be automated but STEM things seem like they'll take at least twice the time to fine tune to the point where they'd be deemed trustworthy enough to supplant human labor in their fields.
>>7688675
It's very surreal.
>>7688692
I'm confused why you're posting on /lit/ if you deny all art any value beyond surface value, and think it can be generated by algorithm.
Also, it's kind of funny how you think that's easier to automate than a stem job, many of which are just "write sequence of code/design structure to do/fill set function." The human element is much less important in those.
>>7688723
Who says I'm talking about art? I value art but realistically speaking, most of society doesn't. If it was entertaining enough and designed to appear superficially meaningful, I think the vast majority of people would have no problems with automated "art". I don't think an algorithm would put out anything worth reading by our standards, but our standards aren't society's standards. Besides that, entertainment is considered unimportant enough to phone in whereas STEM can lead to catastrophic failures if anything goes wrong, so I think there would be more of a reluctance to fully automating it.
>>7688746
Ah, gotcha. God, I hope society isn't going to be that shit soon. I think I would off myself if the world became so awful automated books are the norm.
>>7685590
I am a technical writer.
It is indeed ludicrous, ludicrously boring.
>>7688760
Yeah, there are some really shitty things right around the corner. This might be one of the worst times to be alive. Not in the meme "le wrong generation" way, but in the sense that we're at a point in history where the old systems are crumbling and the ensuing upheaval that will come with their demise will take decades if not centuries to work itself out.
What is the age range in these things?
>>7687765
This is hilarious. If you actually wrote this you are never going to make it.
>>7688778
Do you write manuals of things of such nature ?
Totes honest I think most people resonate the "just go write" opinion because creative types are lazy but I'll gladly throw my hat in that ring
JUST DO IT MANG EXPERIENCE IS LIFE'S GREATEST TEECHUR
>>7688828
Experience that would be of literary value isn't possible in this cruel world of containment. Moving to the big city ain't any better than sittin' on your twin bed.
>>7688847
That depends more on what you glean from your experiences than on the world that produces them. Also traumatic experiences tend to lead to the best literature.
>>7688830
It's too late for that.
>>7687961
Fellow Britfag here. Unless you attend the UEA writing MA you are literally wasting your time. And if you do take it enjoy spending a year sitting in a circle with middle-class cucks talking about how profound minimalist writing is.
>>7689416
Hmm I was thinking it would have to be UEA or Manchester. Did you do one?
>>7688746
>I don't think an algorithm would put out anything worth reading by our standards
t. arrogant meatbag
When you yanks say funded, do you mean grants or student loan type deals from gov?
>>7690014
You get full tuition remission (pay $0.00 to attend school) and you get a stipend (not a loan, it's more like wages) of about $10k-20k a year in return for teaching a couple of classes.
>>7688422
Half the 20-somethings in NYC moved there to make something of themselves, in photography, literature, art, performing arts. They usually find themselves in poverty or as wageslaves with 2 hour 1 way commutes that cost up to 5% of their take home pay, living in tenement houses that would get them luxury condos back home.
But at least they didnt go to law school.
>>7690035
That sounds good. I suppose $10k is about 7k pounds, liveable, but I don't know the cost of living in the states. How difficult is finding a teaching position afterward?
>>7684195
The entire idea seems fucking ridiculous on every possible level.Only paying for it is more ridiculous.
Nothing wrong with choosing a non-STEM major or with shitty employment perspectives but why the fuck creative writing and not at least English/literature?
The only valid excuse so far seems networking, which is rather sad.
>>7690050
NYC is one of the least affordable places to live in the entire world and they're honestly retarded for falling for the "artistic scene"/"opportunity" meme associated with it. It's one thing if you have enough family money to comfortably live wherever you want, but I swear these 20-something year old kids who come here for the "art" scene from the Midwest are absolute retards.
>>7690050
>2 hour 1 way commutes
In my experience, you're right except for this, everyone works in Manhattan or Brooklyn in restaurants or bars.
Still, I wouldn't trade my 6 years in NYC and associated debt for anything. (I actually had a decent job but yeah, it's expensive as fuck.)
>>7685590
>writing
>anything to do with grammar, spelling
i bet you also think editors are useless. continue on your way pleb.
what are the best schools to apply for, and how's the level, will it be incredibly difficult?
>>7691335
>the best schools to apply for,
1. Harvard
2. Stanford
3. Yale
...
9000. MIT (and only because of Junot Diaz, everyone else is shit)
>>7691394
none of these have fully funded programs, unfortunately.
how's brown?
>>7691394
junot diaz is a pile of hot dogshit
any MFA bros here?
>>7691714
>not getting an MBA and dedicating ur life to defeating jewish merchants in the free market
>>7691717
fucking kill yourself
>>7684211
What is this meant to mean?
>>7691743
nice try shylock, im comin for yo shekels bitch and i have christ on my side
>>7690711
Some, but not a ton, mostly because teaching is time consuming.
>>7690076
Not awful, but the easy to find positions are shit. You have to publish a decent book to find a tenure track position.
>>7691335
The Poet's and Writer's top 50 list is bretty gud, and then check out Seth Abramson's article on top underrated programs. Don't listen to >>7691394
>>7691714
I'm here for a bit.
>>7688825
I write safety plans for water-bearing structures. I make $85k a year (oz dollaridoos). Don't follow this path.
theres more than enough writing manuals you can work from so i dont see the point aside from the social aspect
But you can find that on fucking meetup.com
