Are there any Muslims on here that have read the Study Quran?
If so, are you a Sunni or a Shiite? Is there a side that the SQ leans more towards?
>>7674387
>dat editor
>iran
>chaired iranian school of philosophy
>father shia scholar
>he is shia scholar
obviously it favors shia
but here's the kicker, shiite muslims are the ones who dont routinely behead children in the name of allah ackbar. they're actually pretty cool dudes. sunnis are the devil worshipping shit eaters of the muslim world who spread salafism.
>>7674415
Thanks anon.
Do you think that the translation would be greatly different from say, one that's edited by a Sunni Muslim?
>>7674415
So you're saying this edition is more likely to go for a politically correct interpretation?
>>7674415
Wrong. Nasr is a Shi'i, but most of his influences aside from Mulla Sadra (who is considered Sunni-ized and borderline heretical in mainstream Shi'a thought) are Sunni (Ibn Arabi, al-Ghazali, Ahmad al-Alawi). He's also a member of a Sunni Sufi tariqa (the Shadhiliyya). People on ShiaChat have also criticized him for having Sunni theological influences and "praying like a Sunni."
Also, Joseph Lumbard and Caner Dagli (see cover) are Sunni.
I've skimmed the SQ, and most of the references are to Sunni sources. It actually leans VERY heavily to the Sunni side.
Also, you're forgetting that the Shi'a (or rather, the Khomeinist assholes that Nasr left Iran to get away from) introduced suicide bombing into the Middle East.
It's also false that "Sunnis spread Salafism." There is a reason why the Ottomans executed Abdullah bin Saud as a blasphemer and heretic. Traditionally, Salafis were not consedered Sunni. Salafism is to Sunnism as Protestantism is to Catholicism. The current perception that Sunni=Salafi is the consequence of a few decades of Saudis propagandizing with US-backed funds. There is a reason why Sunni countries are full of tomb-shrines and celebrate Mohammed's birthday and all the other stuff Salafis hate.
>>7675421
What are the doctrinal differences between Shia and Sunni? Most explanations about the split I've read focused exclusively of the succession crises after the death of Muhammad, culminating in the events at Karbala, not the actual religious differences between the two.
>>7674415
>but here's the kicker, shiite muslims are the ones who dont routinely behead children in the name of allah ackbar. they're actually pretty cool dudes. sunnis are the devil worshipping shit eaters of the muslim world who spread salafism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_hostage_crisis
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_thought_and_legacy_of_Ruhollah_Khomeini#Istishhad
>Perhaps the most significant legacy of Khomeini internationally is a broader definition of martyrdom to include Istishhad, or "self-martyrdom".Khomeini believed martyrdom could come not only from "inadvertent" death but "deliberate" as well.
>While suicide martyrdom did not win the Iran–Iraq War for Iran, it did spread to Lebanon, where it won victories for the Iraqi Islamic Da'wa party, Shia 'allies' of the Islamic Revolution there. The 1983 bombings against U.S. and French peacekeeping troops by Islamic Da'wa killed over 300 and drove the US and French from Lebanon. Another longer bombing campaign did likewise to the Israeli army. Khomeini is credited by some with inspiring these "suicide bombers".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_controversy
Yeah, those Shi'ites are really wonderful, non-violent people.
>>7675478
The political aspect is overblown, honestly. Most of the debates about succession occurred after the fact, and in the case of Karbala, Sunnis and Shi'ites both consider Husayn (alayhis salam) to have been the righteous person in that battle.
The theological difference is that the 12er Shi'a believe that the 12 imams (as well as Fatima, alayhis salam) were infallible. It's not just that 'Ali (alayhis salam) and his descendants had a right to the Khilafah, but that the absolute spiritual authority of the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa salam) passed on to him.
Sunnis, on the other hand, believe that only the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa aalihi wa salam) had infallibility.
Basically, the Sunnis believe that only prophethood confers infallibility, while the Shi'a believe that prophethood and imamate are both infallible.
>>7675500
it goes further back than that anon.
>assassins creed is real
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isma%27ilism
Nietzsche also described the act of taking ones own life as the will to life after death, will to power. if ones own death can bring about an effect greater than what could be achieved otherwise, then it is a sensible option to choose the option with the greatest impact.
it's also called asymmetric warfare.
hell, even Christendom has matyrdom.
>>7675478
in the modern world, right now?
sunnis follow the house of saud
the house of saud gets their neck shit down by the USA
sunnis essentially are puppets of US foreign interests.
shia muslims are the ottoman empire. their jihad is for the re-establishment of an arab muslim controlled state in the middle east.
sure there is a lot of bullshit about succession rights and this is partly true. but what we are really talking about is important oligarchs of old wealth having influence and power and wanting to maintain that influence and power. it is similar to the church of england and catholic schism. tithes and estates stopped flowing east to the vatican and instead ended up in the royal purse. just power games because normies are just a game.
>>7675537
Shi'ites also believe that the Mahdi has already been born, but has lived in a hidden state of occultation for the past 1100 years.
>>7675580
>sunnis follow the house of saud
All Sunnis I know hate the Saudis. Even most Salafis don't like the Saudis anymore, but those who are traditional Sunnis (Ash'ari, Maturidi, four madhhabs) hate the Saudis with a passion.
Even in Saudi Arabia itself, the Sunnis in Hijaz and Ahsa can't stand the royal family and consider them foreign (Najdi) occupiers and heretics.
Here is one of the most respected Sunni scholars on earth telling the Saudis to "go back to their deserts":
youtu.be/MhLgTRSxPRI
>shia muslims are the ottoman empire. their jihad is for the re-establishment of an arab muslim controlled state in the middle east.
1. The Ottomans weren't Arab.
2. The Iranians aren't Arab.
3. The struggle in the Middle East today is largely a battle between the Russian sphere of influence and the NATO sphere of influence. Saudi fights for NATO/USA, Iran fights for Russia.
>>7675500
>lebanese civil war
>The hostages were mostly Americans and Western Europeans
>CIA Bureau Chief William Francis Buckley and Marine Colonel William Higgins among hostages murdered
>executing spies that are causing civil war in your country
so israel destabilized the region and the shia muslims took back control because the sunnis are shit tier fake muslims who dont do shit.
>iranian civil war
>fucking israel again destabilizing the region
>americans funding this
>americans get taken hostage
>errybody confused about this?
while I hate mudslimes as much as the next guy, I can completely empathize with their position, trying to maintain control of their own home land and avoid balkanization and essentially turning into saudi arabia.
>>7675626
>persians arn't arab
wut?
>>7675628
>so israel destabilized the region and the shia muslims took back control because the sunnis are shit tier fake muslims who dont do shit.
Hamas is Sunni. Saddam Hussein was Sunni.
>>7674387
I am currently reading the Oxford study bible, and was looking for something similar with the Quran to read after
>>7675626
>iran fighting for russia
no you completely misunderstand. persia, the ottoman empire, macedonia, the levant, arabia, the orient, this is a historically significant super power. it has natural geographical borders that make approach difficult. it demands a certain way of living. it is a culturally and economically homogeneous region.
what you are saying about this all being a cold war is lunacy. you may as well say that china is a vassal state of russia because gomunism 8====D
>>7675633
I was objecting to the idea that Shi'a Muslims are fighting "for the re-establishment of an arab muslim controlled state in the middle east."
The only significant Shi'ite power is Iran, and Iranians are not Arabs. Arab Shi'ite groups are largely Iranian proxies. Shi'ites want a Persian-dominated Middle East, not "the re-establishment of an arab muslim controlled state in the middle east."
Also, comparing Shi'ites to the Ottomans is weird considering how much of Ottoman history was spent fighting Persia.
>>7675580
ottomans were sunni are you completely retarded and why would they want an arab supremacy
>>7675653
>what you are saying about this all being a cold war is lunacy. you may as well say that china is a vassal state of russia because gomunism 8====D
You're ignoring the great efforts Putin has made in establishing a sphere of influence in the Middle East and how close his relationship to Iran has became. He's a much greater leader than the west gives him credit for, and much better at building bridges that Obama ever could be.
>>7675421
>Traditionally, Salafis were not consedered Sunni.
KEK, MUH NO TRUE SUNNI FALLACY
You're totally fucking wrong. Salafism is simply the most literalist form of Sunnism. It's the most extreme in its interpretation, but it is definitely a form of Sunnism. The fact is that Sunnis, in general, are completely intolerant of every other religion. There is a reason why Iran has the second highest number of jews in the middle east, outside of israel ofc, despite the fact that there are far more arab jews than persian ones. There is literally no sunni nation in the middle east with a significant minority population that isn't heavily oppressed.
Also, BS on Nasr being sunni. His son's middle name is reza.
>>7675537
>>7675580
Okay, thanks.
Do you know anything I can read to get a better understanding of Islam and that of its various movements/sects? I'm really not that interested in the politics of it (even though that that's to some extent inseparable from it), I mostly just want to learn about the religion itself. I tried reading some bits of the Quran and it made little sense, and I'm not sure if a Quran commentary like >>7674387 is what I'm looking for.
>>7675642
he was a ba'athist. just like the assads. they're actually a really good impartial group. they are not like the saudi camel fuckers. as much as people like to shit on them for muh human rights, they kept the countries together and pretty much everyone had a good time. just look at them now.
hamas is an offshoot of a sunni organization. they are a military force that is distinct from the "religion of peace" stated goal of the muslim brotherhood. juden get out.
no really, juden, get in.
>oven
>>7675674
>>7675663
I am talking about the current state of affairs in the middle east, not what being sunni meant 100 years ago. that is like comparing a catholic schoolboy in new york to an irish catholic boy forced to clean cotton gins of 100 years ago.
also when I say arab I mean sand niggers.
>>7675681
because they have mutual enemies.
NATO started the shit fight and BRICS needs to happen to counter it. literally covering russia and irans borders with strategic missile silos is a preddy big threat.
>>7675685
>KEK, MUH NO TRUE SUNNI FALLACY
It's not "no true Sunni." Historically speaking, the Salafi movement began as a reformist group that opposed the Ottoman Empire and declared all Muslims living in their environs kuffar.
The basis of Salafism is the rejection of historical Sunnism. That's why I made the Protestant/Catholic analogy.
>You're totally fucking wrong. Salafism is simply the most literalist form of Sunnism.
Literalism is not the same as orthodoxy or orthopraxy. Salafism is a distinctly modern reformist tendency.
>Also, BS on Nasr being sunni. His son's middle name is reza.
No one said that Nasr is a Sunni. He is definitely Shi'i. But many Shi'a have criticized him for having Sunni influences. Check out any ShiaChat thread on Nasr and you'll see this.
Also, there are many Sunnis named Reza.
One of the most significant Sunni scholars of the 20th century in India was named Ahmad Reza Khan. The current Sunni Grand Mufti of India (a descendant of his) is named Akhtar Reza Khan.
ITT pro-Iran side simultaneously making "Iran is good because it treats its Jews well" and "Iran is great because it BTFO the Jews" arguments.
>>7675688
ok.
read karl marx.
read weber.
should explain it all to you
ok a basic overview
>do it for the pussy
>take slave wives
>if die in glorious combat get 72 virgin goats
look if you want to understand it there's the sand nigger bible but it doesnt really explain anything at all for you. it's just another interest group and mysticism and religion can be reinterpreted any way that suits the powered elite. its a good way to convince idiots to die in wars and pay taxes and earn GBP
>>7675688
The Study Quran is a great resource on Islamic theology. It will probably help make sense of things.
>>7675736
*tips fedora*
>>7675729
as much as putin is good for tollerating the chechens or any minority group while also allowing the cossacks to BTFO when they step out of line.
>>7675738
explain the importance of the jinn.
they're not involved in the cosmology at all.
they dont interfere at all in any affairs.
there is a whole chapter about little people living in cracks in the walls and cups and butt holes.
you cant see them at all. and it doesnt matter at all when they watch you.
but they have nothing at all to do with any spiritual, moral or religious instruction.
why even mention them at all?
>>7675694
Of course Saddam was a Ba'athist, but the Iraqi Ba'ath and the Syrian Ba'ath had a schism and are not really comparable. Saddam's ARab nationalist principles would've never allowed him to kowtow to Iran or Russia as much as Assad has.
Saddam was a Sunni Muslim who followed the Hanafi madhhab and was part of the Qadiri Sufi order. He also massacred Shi'a and gave no fucks, and threw Wahhabis into the gulag.
He was my hero, man.
>>7675757
Jinn are basically the Islamic version of demons, in that they exert influence over people via suggestion, illness, and possession.
>>7675788
they specifically are stated as having no influence on anything. they just watch you.
>>7675798
No they aren't. In the Qur'an they're described as "whispering" to people and in hadith there are clear references to possession and causing illness.
Also remember that Satan is called a jinni in the Koran. Satan is pretty important.
>>7675736
> go eat shit you retard faggot.
>keep listening to those idiot republicans , keep making America weak by pointless wars.
>>7675798
> read it says "whispers to people "
>more or less takeover you, influence you if your vulnerable
>>7675776
Saddam was a shit person. If this is what Islam is really like than Islam is fucked.
My brother said you Muslims fuck little kids while he was at war. Sick
>>7675871
>My brother said you Muslims fuck little kids while he was at war. Sick
American soldiers were also fucking little kids in Iraq (just as they had fucked little kids in Vietnam). Fucking little kids is wrong, but it's not an exclusively Muslim thing. Just look at eight chan That's mostly Americans and Europeans and that place is full of people who want to fuck kids.
>>7676015
Muslim men sleeping with children, especially little boys, is so rampant in the Middle East that even American soldiers are offended by their immorality.
>>7674415
>not all muslims meme
I hope you get culturally enriched, bro.
>>7675871
>Saddam was a shit person. If this is what Islam is really like than Islam is fucked.
U mad, Amerifat?
>>7676045
I wish we could do something to help the Assyrians. They deserve better.
>>7676034
/pol/ is really keen on the "shi'ites are really fucking cool man, they kill yids and don't afraid of anybody" meme, which makes me suspect that they've never met a shi'ite IRL
>>7676026
Nice punctuation, bro.
>>7676194
Is there something wrong with my punctuation?
Arabic sounds so disgusting.
>>7676088
I'm a /pol/ack and in a scenario where you have to pick between the two, Shiites are simply miles better in terms of pretty much everything.
Crusaders were in favor of Shiites, Portugal, France and England were in favor of Shiites. Shia have always been preferred in the west, and no merely because most of them are further away.
>>7676617
The First Crusade was against Shi'ites (the Fatimids), dumbass.
>>7676617
>Crusaders were in favor of Shiites
As anon above pointed out, the First Crusade was against a Shi'ite dynasty because Europe was outraged at the Fatimid Sultan al-Hakim (later revered as God incarnate by the Druze) destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
>Portugal, France and England were in favor of Shiites.
It kind of depends on the time and the conflict. England was allied with the Sunni Ottomans through most of the 19th century. France waffled, sometimes supporting the Turks and sometimes supporting the Qajar Persians.
>Shia have always been preferred in the west, and no merely because most of them are further away.
Then why do I always see /pol/cucks making fun of temporary marriage and getting scared about taqiyya when those are Shi'ite things? If Shi'ites are so close to the West, why are you guys so butthurt about Shi'ites taking over Dearborn?
>>7676617
>mfw when a Sunni emir saved a bunch of Christians from a horde of murderous Druze
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelkader_El_Djezairi#Anti-Christian_riots_of_1860
>>7676727
/pol/lacks just prefer shi'ites because shi'ites are pro-tranny and allow buttfucking.
>>7674387
Nasr is a Shiite but the sources used for the commentary come from a wide pool of traditional Islamic scholarship that includes Shia and Sunni.
I'm taking a class with one of the editors this semester, which is pretty cool.
Study Quran is extremely legit.
>>7676768
>a reply that actually addresses OP's questions, 40+ replies in
>>7676778
That's pretty typical for any thread remotely related to Islam. I don't even bother reading through them anymore it's just depressing.
>>7676034
the enemy of ones enemy is ones friend, bruv. teaming up with some persians against arab scum doesn't seem a bad deal.
>>7677199
But the Persians are scum too (see everything any Greek ever wrote), and some of their closest allies are Arabs (the Iraqi and Lebanese Shi'a), so what difference does it make? Both will be muh dicking your daughter soon.
>>7677514
Arabs are a greater problem at the moment so they should go first.
>>7675871
you misunderstand the developmental model under which they were operating. it is a tough job to transition from hut dwelling nomads to a fully industrialized nation. especially one with so many power interests. sure he was tough. but if you actually look at why he gassed the kurds you'd understand they deserve it.
>>7676678
yes and they were running the place quite well. sunnis run their kingdoms like literal niggers.
>we was king 'n' queens
>lets build giant monuments to vanity that we can't afford and nobody will use
>we should have a big city
>doesnt matter its already only at 1/3 occupancy
>build it and they will come
>we not just an oil pump
>>7677601
>likes Saddam
>hates Sunnis
>>7676768
Thanks for the help anon.
>>7676060
Any help Amerfats give them will fuck them up even harder.
Keep your incompetent asses over on that side of the lake.
>>7674387
Islam is the shittiest of all religions.
>>7676809
this is actually a surprisingly good thread besides the 16 year old whose brother fought in iraq
>>7677733
you realise this is exactly what islam looks like to everyone who's not a muslim?
>>7677733
Fuck the Quaran, and all the sheep who follow its teachings.
>>7677756
>being this mad
>>7677737
Not Muslim, but the Koran doesn't look that way to me. It draws on Biblical material but it's clear that the intent is different.
Logic, Rhetoric and Legal Reasoning in the Qur'an by Rosalind Gwynne and Deciphering the Signs of God by Annemarie Schimmel are good arguments for why the Koran is worth reading (though that's not actually either author's intention).
There are so many people on this board who have clearly only read a couple of verses of the Koran on Islamwatch or whatever and base their assessment on that, or they tried to dive head first into reading a translation with no context in a linear fashion when the Koran isn't designed to be read that way.
The Koran has a lot of extra-textual and intertextual references that are hard to catch at first. I just think it's funny that people who (rightfully) make fun of people who don't get James Joyce suddenly turn into turbo-plebs when confronted with the Koran.
"This book doesn't hold my hand and give up everything it has effortlessly. Into the trash it goes."
>>7677199
>the enemy of ones enemy is ones friend
No. I wish people would abandon this mindset. It has fucked us over so many times in the past. Exhibit A: America essentially funding the beginnings of Al Qaeda and the Taliban just because they were against the Soviets.
Arabs and Iranians are both scum and neither one of them is a friend of the West.
>>7677854
>Exhibit A: America essentially funding the beginnings of Al Qaeda and the Taliban just because they were against the Soviets.
That's essentially a liberal myth propagated by Michael Moore and other leftists who are ignorant of history.
>>7677861
Some proof would be nice. Either way, the enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend.
So which version of Qur'an should I get to minimize the bias I'm gonna get
>>7677922
What do you mean exactly?
>>7677922
If you want to keep liking Muslims, then don't read it at all.
>>7675478
Shia eat their eggs from the round end, Sunni eat their eggs from the pointed end.
I'm also interested in the Study Quran. There's just one problem though, and that's that I mentioned that the Editor-in-Chief is a Shia to my mother.
So, I live with my parents (I'm 19), and wanted to read the Quran and learn about it and have heard nothing but praise for the Study Quran. I was discussing it with my mother, who is a Sunni, and she is disapproving of me purchasing it. She is set on the fact that just because he's a Shia, the translation of the Quran is twisted in favor of the Shia. My father is also a Shia, but this topic hasn't been discussed with him yet.
How can I convince my mother that the Study Quran isn't in favor of the Shia? I've read that it's from both Sunni and Shia sources, but she won't take it. I need something more than just that.
I personally don't care for Sunni or Shia, and would just prefer to stick to the basics that I've been taught as a child, but she thinks that by reading a Quran translated by a Shia I'll have the wrong understanding of the Quran.
>>7678006
I actually hated Muslims *until* I read the Koran (and also Wisdom of the Prophet by Thomas Cleary, a collection of canonical hadiths).
>>7678018
How conservative, on a scale of 1 to 10, would you rate yourself? Islam is the most conservative religion in the world.
>>7678016
Joseph Lumbard and Caner Dagli are both Sunni. I don't know what Maria Massi Dakake and Mohammed Rustom are.
Seyyed Hossein Nasr is the farthest thing from a bigoted sectarian you could find. He's a member of the Shadhili tariqa, which is a Sunni Sufi order popular in Morocco and Algeria.
>>7678026
Thanks. Are there any sources I could use to prove this?
>>7678021
I'd rate myself a 10. I have no qualms calling myself a conservative, although I think conservative may be too weak a term as it's been watered down in the US by the Republicans.
I'm definitely on the far right end of the political spectrum.
>>7678039
Here are Shi'a talking (and complaining) about Nasr's Sunni connections:
www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/38904-prof-seyyed-hossein-nasr-shia-or-sunni/
>>7678044
Shit, I replied to the wrong person.
>>7677799
i've read the koran with scattered exegesis
it's shit; obviously written on the fly in response to changing conditions in order to consolidate gains
it's worse than either testament taken as a whole, by far
>>7677629
>ba'athists arn't despised by sunnis
>>7678118
Saddam was a Sunni, as was Izzat al-Duri and the majority of the senior members of the Iraqi Ba'ath.
If you mean that Ba'athists are despised by Salafis, this is true but Salafis despise everyone.
Salafis even hate Ash'aris, even though Ash'ari theology has always been considered orthodoxy par excellence in Sunni Islam.
>>7678118
How is he praying?
>>7678136
ahaha what a faggot. why does me need two carpets?
>>7678166
>why does me
>>7678136
For the same reason he couldn't only fuck one of your mom's holes, but had to go with two of them.
>>7676026
It is an old tradition in Afghanistan man, not the whole middle east.
Boy fucking was also common in ancient greece, Plato even wrote a dialogue about this
