Christmas in Space Edition
>Recommendations:
>Fantasy
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/4chanlit/images/a/a8/1307836551252.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110612005642
>Sci-Fi
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/4chanlit/images/a/a6/Scifilit.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100710233344
http://imgur.com/r55ODlL
>What you are you currently reading?
>If you had to decide: Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein?
>Do you prefer outer space stuff or future Earth stories?
>In what direction do you think Fantasy will move in the next decade? More GRRM? more muh politics on a grand scale? Back to Hack and slash and adventure?
>Which book, if any, would you recommend to muh genre-fiction il/lit/erates?
old thread: >>7447035
>>7500682
>What you are you currently reading?
Eyes of the Overworld by Vance
>>If you had to decide: Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein?
Asimov cuz I haven't read the other two.
>>Do you prefer outer space stuff or future Earth stories?
Space.
>>In what direction do you think Fantasy will move in the next decade? More GRRM? more muh politics on a grand scale? Back to Hack and slash and adventure?
A mix of GRRM clones and shitty Sanderson video-game fantasy.
>>Which book, if any, would you recommend to muh genre-fiction il/lit/erates?
The Dying Earth
So getting any sci-fi or fantasy for tomorrow? I'm getting The Foundation trilogy in that classy Everyman hardcover edition.
>>7500732
>tomorrow
my country celebrates on the 24th, in fact my parents just went home.
They only got me some clothes, which is fine, I told them years ago to stop buying me random books and they don't know how to order English books from amazon anyway.
I'm picking up more books in January myself I guess but not sure what I want yet.
>>7500753
What third world country are you from?
>>7500770
Germany
>In what direction do you think Fantasy will move in the next decade? More GRRM?
Martin is not a fantasy writer, aSoIaF is not a fantasy series.
Why do you thin it is that Americans seem to be pumping out more fantasy than us British are this century? When you think about it all the big named fantasy writers are American, Jordan, Wolfe, Lynch, Rothfuss,Sanderson, etc. I can't for the life of me think of any big named fantasy writers from my country which is odd since we seem to be doing science fiction more.
>>7500858
There is magic and dragons in it. How is it not fantasy?
>>7500884
Your country has taste. We dont.
>>7500890
The Magic is genetic mutations, the dragons are genetically engineered, the red comet was a spaceship.
This'll helphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMgUIPvAlLI&list=PLCsx_OFEYH6vAkHO0gakDrZ8Kuteu-nUn
Are there any good naval fantasy books or series? Something like Aubrey–Maturin or Horatio Hornblower?
From last thread - "Sci-fi is hard to get into unless it's near-future stuff. So space opera is out."
Totally wrong imo.
>>7500914
Targaryens are aliens confirmed
>Giving birth to a shadow assassin is a genetic mutation
>>7500914
>possessing an animal or a retard is a genetic mutation
>becoming a tree is a genetic mutation
>>7501131
Try Weber's Safehold. It's technically science fiction, but fuck with that, most of it is age of sail themed stuff.
>>7501689
>>7501700
I simplified it too much with genetic mutation.
The world is set after a giant war involving high tech genetic fuckery to produce soldiers or damage the enemies. This is many thousands of years after the great human empire collapsed and this world lost it's space travel and reverted to a medieval level of technology.
Skinchangers are a good example, think of houses associated with animals, starks and their direwolves, arryns and their birds, whents and the bats, skinchanging is actually just a form of telepathy allowing the control of animals/people. Now this gene is recessive so it requires two parents with this gene for the child to become a telepath (skinchanger) this is why the targs were able to control dragons, they were telepaths and their incest kept the gene pool limited and gave a high chance for all children to be telepaths and able to control a dragon. Stark children get this because of their father Ned carrying it and also from their mother who gets it as she is half tully, half whent. Robert Arryn also is a telepath as his father is an Arryn and his mother is cat's sister and so also half whent. He is a more common telepath, he doesn't control animals but he knows information he shouldn't and says things a weak and sheltered boy shouldn't know or understand.
>becoming a tree is a genetic mutation
In a lot of Martin's stories he has hiveminded races, the children of the forest are just another one, they're probably descendants of one of these alien races that like the humans lost/forgot their space travel ability and just adapted to living on this planet.though how a hivemind forgets anything is way past me, brain damage because somebody chopped down too many weirwoods maybe?
>Giving birth to a shadow assassin is a genetic mutation
There's certainly things left over of space age technology, glass candles for example could quite easily be long range communication devices which explains how people like Quaithe and Marwyn can watch and send messages to people on the other side of the world. The things Melisandre can do I can't explain well though maybe if we ever see Asshai it'd be more clear, It can't be something to do with her genetics as shadowbinders appear to be trained rather than born as one.
Genetics are actually a large part of this series and Martin's other works. Bringing in new genes to a group is something we see many groups doing (The Others, the wildlings and their spear wives, the ironborn and salt wives) but we also see groups isolating themselves and being abnormal because of it (The Targs) Craster also exclusively fucks his daughters which creates heavily inbred children, he then gives all male children to the Others which introduces bad genes into the already small pool that they have from being isolated. This kind of genetic manipulation is a low-tech version of the things we'd see big groups doing in Martin's other novels.
A song of ice and fire is science fiction.
>>7501861
It's not fanfiction, it all fits within whats told to you in the books but the books and the author haven't explicitly said "this is secretly sci-fi and not just gonna turn into generic fantasy good vs bad"
I'd say it can be taken as fact and that's because Martin loves lifting things from previous books into this series and almost everything has basis on another sci-fi book of his.
>>7501891
it sounds horrible
>>7500732
Hopefully some Perry Rhodan, otherwise I'm getting Egan's Diaspora.
Does anyone else like light fantasy that's written more for teens? I still own all of Tamora Pierce's books from when I acquired them while I was younger and still immensely enjoy them, sometimes moreso than other more 'adult' books.
Wish I knew where to find more fantasy like these. I really loved the magic stuff that was in the circle of magic series.
>>7502364
Also the x-study books by maria snyder desu, although I haven't read shadow study
>>7500682
>What you are you currently reading?
Lord of Light by Zelazny
>If you had to decide: Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein?
Only read Asimov out of these.
>Do you prefer outer space stuff or future Earth stories?
Haven't read enough fantasy to have a preference desu.
>In what direction do you think Fantasy will
move in the next decade? More GRRM? more muh politics on a grand scale? Back to Hack and slash and adventure?
Probably PG stuff like Sanderson and Rothfuss continuing to become more popular as a reaction to the popularity of gritty fantasy.
>Which book, if any, would you recommend to muh genre-fiction il/lit/erates?
I really don't care.
>>7500884
Abercrombie
He's the only one I can think of.
>>7501861
It's just an extremely unlikely fan theory and should not be taken seriously at all.
>>7500708
>>>Which book, if any, would you recommend to muh genre-fiction il/lit/erates?
>The Dying Earth
clicked on this thread to find a post like this
sideloading onto my new Kobo at this minute
Do you guys enjoy steam punk? :3 I want to get into Steampunk because the concept seems cool. Any recs?
>>7502926
No. Steampunk is for losers.
>>7502931
Ok..
>>7502426
What is lord of light about?
>>7502926
Try Jim Butcher's new series. It has talking cats and shit. The spires series.
I read the first four books in the Horus Heresy series and they just get progressively worse. Is there any space opera series that is similar in scope?
Fantasy is undeniably getting worse and has been getting worse ever since it became a part of the nerd culture. It lost it's virginity as something innocent and fun while becoming a festering ground for retards who like Rothfuss and Erkson. Instead of a movement such as we had in the 60s up until Wolfe with fantastic authors as mentioned and Zelanzy, Le Guin and others we get le ebic grimdark fantasy that is so le mature and world building and magic system and wish fulfillment.
What's the latest fantasy you all have read? How was it?
I just bit into the Rothfuss hype and read his 2 books, and I wasn't disappointed. In particular I thought the characters were done very well. They were all fucking lovable, and the villains were perfect. I absolutely hate Denna, though. The other aspects of it were done well too, I'm a junkie for worldbuilding on the scale of Tolkein or Jordan, and this didn't disappoint me.
What should I read next? I've read asoiaf (not too bad, good but too much of a drama), mistborn (loved the background and magic system, hated the writing), wot (repetitive but fucking loved it anyway, my favorite so far), started malazan but dropped it (too vague and fantastical, not enough explanation), and of course Tolkein (good but not the perfect example of fantasy everyone claims).
>>7503435
>undeniably
That's very deniable, and all your gripes with modern fantasy were very subjective. Many readers think there's nothing wrong with a focus on magic systems and worldbuilding.
If you don't like those, what do you think are good qualities in fantasy? Explain to me what writers like Rothfuss do wrong that ones like LeGuin do better?
>>7503456
>That's very deniable
I wasn't aware of quality fantasy by new writers in the past two decades
>and all your gripes with modern fantasy were very subjective
Lack of style, focus on trivial, stiff characters and lack of depth are just about as objective as you can have in literature
>Many readers think there's nothing wrong with a focus on magic systems and worldbuilding.
Many readers have shit taste
>If you don't like those, what do you think are good qualities in fantasy? Explain to me what writers like Rothfuss do wrong that ones like LeGuin do better?
Le Guin had imagination,a point, wrote people as characters. She had grace and to be short produced art.
Rothfuss writers for manchildren who just really want to feel good and fuck some le mysterious goddess redheads while being brilliantly talented prodigies who also play amazing guitar. Unlike le Guin he produces jizz.
>>7503367
So... you want a space opera that gets worst as the series progresses?
>>7503450
>I wasn't disappointed
>I thought the characters were done very well
In all seriousness, thanks. I really needed that laugh for today.
>>7503474
"style" is what's subjective. Is your whole point that Rothfuss and other modern writers' characters aren't complicated and flawed enough? Be more specific. How does LeGuin's writing show "imagination and grace" in a way Rothfuss does not? I have never read LeGuin, so I can't compare them. Give me some details to back up your elitism.
>>7503529
Nah I honestly have better things to do than proving to a pleb how literature works.
One day if you grow out of trash you'll understand, or you'll stay a pleb forever.
It's like when you are 13, no one can prove to you that Linkin Park and Disturbed are trash, but you realize they are when you're old enough.
>>7503362
Future colonized planet run by humans with advanced tech who run it as the Hindu pantheon, with one nigga who tries to usurp them as Buddha.
>>7503517
Holy balls, does everyone just hate Rothfuss's characters? Details, man! Why?
I found all the characters to have a lot of personality and be very likable. Kilvin and Elodin and the other masters are unique and likable, the mayor and the nobles are all varied and interesting, and Ambrose is the perfect asshole villain. It's the kind of book that made me grow attached to all of them, and I think that was very well done.
Do you just want all your characters to have dark and twisted backgrounds and all sorts of internal turmoil? Real life's not like that, you know. Books that do that come across as being melodramatic and tiring to me.
>>7502434
guessed so, sounds as absurd as the indoctrination theory of mass effect. after the total clusterfuck ending of mass effect 3 people came up with an absolute idiocy to rationalize that the ending just plain sucked. parts of the DLC you could buy after the game and the extended cut blew that theory the fuck out and just confirmed that the ending was plain and simply shit. I guessed it'd be the same here.
>>7502332
>Perry Rhodan
There's a Rhodan comic out for a few months now, have you read it? You reading the old series or one of the updated ones?
>Haven't read enough fantasy to have a preference desu.
"Future Earth" doesn't mean fantasy. I meant stuff that plays in the future (could be cyperpunk for example) but exclusively on Earth without space travel.
>>7503367
>I read the first four books in the Horus Heresy series and they just get progressively worse.
I felt the same.
>Is there any space opera series that is similar in scope?
Try the Foundation stuff by Asimov maybe.
>>7503435
>Rothfuss etc
Haven't read any of those yet and probably never will
>>7503450
>What's the latest fantasy you all have read? How was it?
Reading through D&D stuff, it's entertainment, nothing more, nothing less and I like it.
>>7503652
Trying to read the old series. I've been meaning to start for a while now
>>7503582
If you're not here to analyze and review literature, then what the fuck are you doing here at all? Are you just here to masturbate over how much more sophisticated your tastes are than everyone else's?
And actually, you can point out the problems with music like Linkin Park and Disturbed. They follow the same exact template for almost every song--verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge with edgy vocals, verse, chorus x2. They use the exact same rhythms for most songs, with only minor changes in the riffs set to that rhythm--Disturbed is especially guilty here. Their subject matter doesn't help, either--it tends to be about tangling with teenage angsty emotions, very cheesy and edgy, and their style is boastful in a cringeworthy way (like David Draiman's habit of making all his social media posts in all caps). They're lacking in any interesting or unique melodies, all they use is repetitive riffs.
Now analyze my literature that way if you can, cause I'm not seeing it.
>>7503772
You're right, I will stop listening to Linkin Park and Disturbed now.
>>7503785
I'm not telling anyone to stop. They're not without redeeming qualities, you can't deny David Draiman has an excellent voice. I'm just analyzing and critiquing--which I wish the pretentious assholes here would take the time to do for literature. That's what a proper (but very brief) critical review looks like.
I thought this was a literature board, not a philosophy circlejerk and a sophistication dick measuring contest.
>>7503830
Read absolutely any of the other sci fi/fantasy general threads this board has had and you'll see it discussed ad naseum. It'd be nice to not have to go over the same things in every single thread.
>>7500682
>>/lit/
>literature
not genre fiction sci fi plebbery
>>7503772
>If you're not here to analyze and review literature, then what the fuck are you doing here at all?
Question is if you want reviews and analysis of literature what the fuck are you doing here? I'm here mostly for the memes.
>Are you just here to masturbate over how much more sophisticated your tastes are than everyone else's?
No, I do that irl.
>And actually, you can point out the problems with music like Linkin Park and Disturbed. They follow the same exact template for almost every song--verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge with edgy vocals, verse, chorus x2. They use the exact same rhythms for most songs, with only minor changes in the riffs set to that rhythm--Disturbed is especially guilty here. Their subject matter doesn't help, either--it tends to be about tangling with teenage angsty emotions, very cheesy and edgy, and their style is boastful in a cringeworthy way (like David Draiman's habit of making all his social media posts in all caps). They're lacking in any interesting or unique melodies, all they use is repetitive riffs.
But that's like all subjective man, style and like prose and quality is like totally personal dude
>Now analyze my literature that way if you can, cause I'm not seeing it.
It's literally a YA novel for people who can't tell the difference between quality prose and a forced redditor fart.
You won't see it, at least for now and until you read a decent amount of actually good books.
>What you are you currently reading?
Just finished Phillip K Dick's Ubik, starting on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. I think it will be better than Ubik, which gave me a neutral impression. It felt like for the first 40% nothing was happening and I didn't care about the characters, then there were about five climaxes, but it left the ending feel rather exhausted by the end. I did like his writing, so I thought it would be good to try something more acclaimed.
>Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein?
Asimov: English gentlemen pontificate about time
Heinlein: Libertarian Lunar politics with one-dimensional busty women
Just first impressions, but I'd go with Clarke considering my options
>outer space stuff or future Earth stories?
Either of these have potential in the hands of a good author.
>Fantasy in the next decade?
I think as sci-fi and fantasy readers become more educated and knowledgeable about sciences, and desire a degree of realism and explanations grounded in facts, we're going to see more authors that base their stories in real research, and extrapolate on speculation from real science more and more.
>Which book, if any, would you recommend to muh genre-fiction il/lit/erates?
Ted Chiang's short stories are somewhere on the gradient of literary fiction - science fiction. Maybe soft science fiction, but they're great stories and I always recommend him.
>>7500682
>reading The Blade Itself
>at every opportunity Abercrombie trots out his "bllonde/blue eyed people are stupid and shallow. Dark haired women with shit colored eyes are the real deal. Look everybody, see how nonconformist and anti-racist I am! Somebody assemble a gang of Negroes to jerk off over my face and call me a good white boi!" shtick
Does anything smack of bitter jealousy more than hating on blonde/blue eyed people
Still a decent book otherwise.
Anyone read The Painted Man?
I can't work out whether I like it, or it's sjw propaganda.
>>7503619
It's just cool not to like Rothfuss because he's popular.
Most people on this board are the overflow of /b/, who automatically dislike anything popular, because they like to believe they're superior and next level intellectual.
>>7503582
Read as: I don't really know what the fuck I'm talking about and if I try and explain my opinion it will become horrifically obvious I'm a cock juggling thundercunt.
I'm probably going to get eaten alive on here for saying this but I started hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. I've been reading a lot of hard sci fi and I'm a little burnt out. I wanted to get into something a little more....fun? I guess my question is, is this book worth reading? Should I just view it as a total comedy or does it have any substantial plot?
>>7504148
>It's just cool not to like Rothfuss because he's popular.
No, some books are actually garbage, regardless of popularity.
Many quite popular authors are well liked here, fucks sake most well known SFF authors are popular.
Rothfuss couldn't write for shit, it's a jizz of a retarded neckbeard.
>>7503435
We need more Le Guins and Wolfe's
>>7503517
I agree but its ironic that a Sanderson fanboy hates Rothfuss considering theyre both Redditcore
>>7503866
>I think as sci-fi and fantasy readers become more educated and knowledgeable about sciences, and desire a degree of realism and explanations grounded in facts, we're going to see more authors that base their stories in real research, and extrapolate on speculation from real science more and more.
>tfw we will be cursed with decades of more Le Stemlord fiction
>>7502426
>Lord of Light by Zelazny
I was thinking of reading Lord of Light or that immortal soon, which one is the best as a first Zelazny book ?
>>7504133
It's decent but has several awful characters and plot lines.
Arlen is a bretty gud MC though, for a Fantasy series.
>>7504148
>people don't like X because it's popular
Been here all summer, huh?
>>7503896
Its more Romans vs filthy germanic tribes
>>7504148
No, his books are shit.
>>7504203
Read first 50 pages if you like that kind of humour then you will like, otherwise drop it in the thrash cuz plot is shit.I rly dont know any sf that is fun or light and not utter shit.
>>7504161
I do, but what's the point? Unironically liking Rothfuss means you are an idiot as is, so it wouldn't help if I did.
>>7505008
Gary Stu protagonist
Highly overrated
Rothfuss himself is an insufferable cunt
So I'm currently reading Claw of the Conciliator, it's been a pretty good ride so far but I'm confused about something: people often comment on how Severian is not a reliable narrator at all but I don't see why. Is that something you realize until the end of the story? or am I retarded for not noticing it so far?
>>7505008
Self insert power fantasy fedora tipping perfect gorgeous mysterious legend goddess fucking prodigy with a tragic past. I wish this was a joke, but it isn't.
Forced, uncreative prose with an abundance of flowery language which comes off as uncreative and a product of a person with delusions of greatness.
Bland, boring, unoriginal, derivative setting.
Massive amounts of fedora tier atheism.
Hundreds of pages that could have been cut out without any value lost.
Lack of actual human characters.
Annoying love interest that somehow manages to be more insufferable than bland.
We cover this in every fucking thread.
Rothfuss is garbage and doesn't hold a candle to Howard or Leiber that do exactly what he tried to do without delusions of greatness or being massive cunts.
>>7505319
You don't notice because Severian doesn't want you to notice.
Most people don't notice until they finish it or reread it.
Also bare in mind that Sev doesn't lie, he just at times withholds information or just doesn't understand things going around him.
>>7505139
>overrated
This is not a legitimate criticism. It is absolutely a criticism of the discourse that surrounds the work, but it is NEVER a legitimate criticism of the work itself. Using it as a criticism of the work itself demonstrates exactly the quality you're being called out on, because the only reason that you would mention it as it relates to the work would be to attempt to demean the work as 'appealing to the masses', which is barely even tangentially related to the work to begin with.
The protagonist being a two dimensional self insert is absolutely a reasonable critique (and, honestly, is pretty accurate).
Rothfuss being a cunt is neither a criticism of the work or relevant in any way to even the discourse of the work.
Calling out a work as 'overrated', no matter how true it is, is just elitist, irrelevant bleating that serves no purpose other than to remind the reader that YOU'RE part of the literate elite, and that you have no regard for the opinion of the plebian 'masses'. This is doubly irritating because there are a lot of absolutely on-point criticisms to level at the novels, as illustrated acerbically and accurately by >>7505320
>>7505319
>>7505333
You almost certainly won't notice until you've re-read the novels, but something to keep in mind is that Severian explicitly claims to have photographic memory more than once. It's hard to pick up on the flaws in this the first time you read through the series, because you're consuming the stories progressively instead of examining the details of a story you already know.
>>7505333
>>7505377
Cool, thanks for the spoiler-free answers friends.
This is my first Gene Wolfe book and I was aware that you get the most out of his works if you re-read them, so I was planning to do that from the start. I'll be on the lookout for those details that I might have missed this first time.
>>7505407
You'll probably get answers on most questions here.
Also reading authors who influenced him was a fun ride too.
>>7505412
>reading authors who influenced him was a fun ride too.
That should be interesting.
Is there any author/book in particular that you would recommend?
>>7505437
Chesterton, Proust, Vance, Melville, Tolkien, Nabokov, Borges, Lovecraft. Some had more, some less, but it takes you through a nice part of 20th century lit.
>>7504380
I wouldn't know, I've only read Lord of Light, but I am greatly enjoying it.
>>7503474
>>7503517
>>7503582
>>7504271
>>7504532
>>7505139
>>7505320
You know what? Fine. I'm the one who just finished Rothfuss and enjoyed it, which apparently is some sort of mortal sin around here. If you think one of the authors you mentioned has prose and characters that will make Rothfuss look poor by comparison, let's see it. I'm here to find another book to read anyway, give me a suggestion and I'll make it my next read. LeGuin came up a lot, should I start there?
I want to draw my own conclusions, cause I think most of your arguments against Rothfuss are a steaming load of elitist horseshit because he is a popular author. (I agree that the main character is a little too simple and perfect, but I don't know where you're getting "unoriginal setting" or "fedora-tier atheism" from. I saw neither of those qualities in the series so far, the different cultures were varied and original, and the major religion was a pretty believable one for the medieval setting, complete with well thought-out tales, clergy, and holidays.)
In case it affects your suggestions, I enjoy slow, wandering stories and very elaborate worldbuilding. Robert Jordan is my favorite author so far, if that tells you anything.
I'm open to new authors, and I'll take your suggestions seriously. I'm not just trying to prove a point here, I want to make the comparison for myself.
>>7505753
What the hell, as soon as I show willingness to consider your suggestions the thread dies? Shameless bump here, I'm giving your damn elitism a chance now tell me what to read!
>>7505320
>Hundreds of pages that could have been cut out without any value lost.
You didn't like the hundreds of pages about Kvothe worrying over how he will pay for Hogwarts during the next year?
>>7505753
I haven't seen a post that pic related applies to in quite a while. Great job at completely failing to assimilate in any way, shape, or form.
>>7506019
I really don't see what you mean. I'm not ignoring advice at all. People advised me that other authors are better, and I'm trying to follow it and give them a chance. I'm not rejecting anything that doesn't agree with me, I'm challenging it when I honestly believe their criticisms were flawed.
I'm not expecting people to solve all my problems, but I did come here expecting some real discussion and good literary criticism, and instead all I get is "my tastes are better than yours" dick measuring.
what's your guys' favorite adventure story? Something that's easy as hell to dive into and is fun from beginning to end. Need something to get me back into reading and just got a new ereader. Could be a short as hell single book or a long ass series. Any will do.
>>7506096
Well, while we're on the subject... Rothfuss. There are some legitimate arguments against it here, such as that it's just the author jizzing over his fantasy dream self, but no one should deny that it's easy and fun.
>>7506096
Everworld.
It's about a group of college kids who get thrown into a world created by the Gods of different mythologies to escape from a God-eating God. Really well-done.
>>7506119
Neat
just was looking at the recs chart and Jack Vances Lyonesse looks interesting. Anyone else recommend it?
>>7506096
The Long Ships
(Viking marauders travel and fight and die, as long as it makes for a good story it is good to die)
or
The Once And Future King
(a re-telling of King Arthur that gets darker with every book, the first book was basis for that Disney movie)
or
The 13 1/2 Lives of Captain Bluebear
(German series of novels, this one is the first, somewhere between fairy tale and original fantasy)
>>7506133
Thanks, The Long Ship looks fun as hell
Gonna get into that then into Jack Vances main series
thanks fellas. I'll be in touch
Faggots are great at ignoring me when I ask any real questions. I'm the fag who got laughed at for liking Rothfuss. Several people used LeGuin as an example of a better author. Is that true? Should I start with the Earthsea series? Description/reviews of her writing?
Someone just give me some damn information, I'm tired of bragging and circlejerking.
>>7506125
Only read the first one, I'd recommend it although with a forewarning that Vance's style takes a while to get used to.
>>7506169
Jesus Christ you're a crybaby. Do you only read your own posts and people that reply directly to you? Do you never read any other post in these threads? It's really not that fucking hard to just LURK MORE.
Fine. Let me spoon feed you. Read Wolfe. Read LeGuin. Read Peake. Read Stephenson. Read Gibson. Read zelanzy. Read ambercrombie.
That seven. Figure it out for your fucking self. Like what you like and stop being so fucking sensitive if an anonymous message board doesn't like what you like. Jesus Christ. Fucking children.
>>7506169
Seriously mate, take opinions here with a pinch of salt, an authors popularity outside the imagined peer circles here is used as a measure of contempt if its not already on a specially tiered list of approved /lit. Read what you want, start where you will and if you are really interested in literature leave this shithole and find somewhere with men and women who are old enough to have read 1000s of books and actually have a constructive opinion, rather than the list based meme readers here.
>>7505753
>You know what? Fine. I'm the one who just finished Rothfuss and enjoyed it, which apparently is some sort of mortal sin around here.
Yes because it's absolutely abhorrent.
> If you think one of the authors you mentioned has prose and characters that will make Rothfuss look poor by comparison, let's see it.
Literally every fucking author commonly mentioned.
> I'm here to find another book to read anyway, give me a suggestion and I'll make it my next read. LeGuin came up a lot, should I start there?
You can, she is a good author. Left Hand of Darkness and Dispossessed are her best.
>I want to draw my own conclusions, cause I think most of your arguments against Rothfuss are a steaming load of elitist horseshit because he is a popular author.
No, he is known because of the popularity and main complaints are completely unrelated to his popularity. Le Guin is really fucking popular, so what?
>(I agree that the main character is a little too simple and perfect, but I don't know where you're getting "unoriginal setting" or "fedora-tier atheism" from.
There is literally nothing original or creative about his setting, fedora is extreme. He kills the lizard and stand on the church and tips his fedora to uneducated religious people who see it as a miracle. Numerous similar instances.
>I saw neither of those qualities in the series so far, the different cultures were varied and original, and the major religion was a pretty believable one for the medieval setting, complete with well thought-out tales, clergy, and holidays.)
That's because it's baby's first fantasy.
>In case it affects your suggestions, I enjoy slow, wandering stories and very elaborate worldbuilding. Robert Jordan is my favorite author so far, if that tells you anything.
Tells me you have bad taste. Jordan is also not very good, but is at least better than Rothfuss.
>I'm open to new authors, and I'll take your suggestions seriously. I'm not just trying to prove a point here, I want to make the comparison for myself.
Howard
Lovecraft
Leiber
Peake
Moorcock
Wolfe
Tolkien
Le Guin
Zelanzy
Lem
Herbert
Dick
>>7506335
I keep telling myself that, but it's hard. After being here for years I can't get used to a forum or messageboard that has standards or rules. And I haven't found anywhere with good, serious criticism yet. Here there are at least a handful of intelligent readers, though they're all pretentious as fuck
>>7506324
This is a board about literature. Isn't asking for recommendations and in-depth reviews common when discussing literature? I ask again, why else are you here? When other people ask a question, I give an in-depth answer and a good, serious review of the book in question. I was hoping someone would do the same for me. Is that just not what people do here? You really are just here so you can feel good about your superior tastes, aren't you?
>>7506514
"Abhorrent" isn't a valid criticism. Thank you for at least mentioning some book titles. I'll start there. How's Earthsea? I prefer fantasy to science fiction, I'm looking for another fantasy series to start. If you think the titles you mentioned are better examples of writing, I'll read them for the sake of review and comparison, but if Earthsea is as good I would enjoy that read more I think.
How original or creative do you expect a setting to be? What would you say is an example of a good one? I've noticed that any time an author includes a map, people here claim that they're just copying Tolkein, is that your problem with it as well?
Themes of an educated person taking advantage of superstition to simplify explanations or make themselves look good are not uncommon. Fuck, it happens in real life. That's not fedora atheism at all.
There are a lot of valid complaints against Jordan--mainly the repetitive descriptions of peoples' body language and expressions--but I wouldn't say that makes him "not very good". I have never seen another author build a more detailed and complete world than Jordan did.
I'll start with Wolfe or LeGuin, they have been mentioned the most. Thanks for that at least. An explanation of their writing and comparison to the authors I mentioned would have been too much to hope for.
>>7507123
No. I don't feel superior about shit. I told you to stop worrying about other people's opinions, didn't I? There's always discussion going on in here. Your problem is you've taken over this thread to whine about people not liking what you like and demanding people cater to you specifically about recommendations rather than paying attention and seeing that people are saying the same shit over and over, just not directly TO YOU. You need to be spoon fed and its fucking annoying. Just stop.
I love Rothfuss. No lie.
Also Abercrombie
Grrm
Robin Hobb
And Sanderson's reckoners books.
My most recent favourite is Luke Skull's Sword of The North.
The Painted Man sucks.
Am I a pleb?
>>7507123
>I keep telling myself that, but it's hard. After being here for years I can't get used to a forum or messageboard that has standards or rules. And I haven't found anywhere with good, serious criticism yet. Here there are at least a handful of intelligent readers, though they're all pretentious as fuck
You see anything whatsoever which you dislike will be called pretentious. Calling shit fantasy shit is as unpretentious as one can be with criticism.
>>>7506324
>This is a board about literature. Isn't asking for recommendations and in-depth reviews common when discussing literature?
Why would someone post essays to you to prove to you as a whiny bitch that your taste is shit?
> I ask again, why else are you here?
Memes
>When other people ask a question, I give an in-depth answer and a good, serious review of the book in question. I was hoping someone would do the same for me.
And you got plenty just like in every fucking thread where someone feels offended that his favorite writer is shit
> Is that just not what people do here? You really are just here so you can feel good about your superior tastes, aren't you?
No, for that I need plebs like you to have someone to feel superior to.
>"Abhorrent" isn't a valid criticism.
Nothing is for your favorite fantasy novel.
Thank you for at least mentioning some book titles. I'll start there. How's Earthsea?
Don't know, only read Hannish Cycle
>How original or creative do you expect a setting to be?
Depends on the story. At least enough not to be a generic dnd
>What would you say is an example of a good one?
Every one from the authors listed.
> I've noticed that any time an author includes a map, people here claim that they're just copying Tolkein, is that your problem with it as well?
No, I don't remember a map in the coppy I read not would I care about it.
>Themes of an educated person taking advantage of superstition to simplify explanations or make themselves look good are not uncommon. Fuck, it happens in real life. That's not fedora atheism at all.
In this novel it is, especially knowing what kind of a retard Rothfuss is.
>There are a lot of valid complaints against Jordan--mainly the repetitive descriptions of peoples' body language and expressions--but I wouldn't say that makes him "not very good". I have never seen another author build a more detailed and complete world than Jordan did.
Coming up with complete worlds should only be used as a means, not the end, which is where most fantasy fails.
>I'll start with Wolfe or LeGuin, they have been mentioned the most. Thanks for that at least. An explanation of their writing and comparison to the authors I mentioned would have been too much to hope for.
You whiny bitch you can google each of them or actually fucking lurk since they are mentioned in this very fucking thread and every sff general every fucking time.
>>7507249
Only if you take those works seriously.
I enjoy Horus Heresy, but only once in a while as a passtime. It's just important not to get all puffed up about them being mostly sub par.
>>7506335
There were other reasons posted about why Rothfuss' main series is poor, far beyond mere popularity. I do agree with the poster who said that this is discussed in EVERY thread and I think we need some type of copypaste for it. The guy continually crying is why I posted that image about a hugbox since this guy has completely flipped his shit and is throwing a toddler-tier tantrum since someone dare disagreed with him about his shitty fucking generic Gary Stu series because god fucking forbid a normal have their opinion challenged.
His type of person does not belong on 4chan especially seeing as how he cannot do something so simple as shutting the fuck up and LURKING MORE.
>>7505589
I guess I'll read it. Would you recommend it to someone who haven't read any book for a couple of years ?
![1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/tS7FfNR.jpg "1699592-elric_of_melnibone_by_isra2007[1].jpg")
>>7503435
> le ebic grimdark fantasy that is so le mature and world building and magic system and wish fulfillment.
>>7500682
>What are you currently reading
I just finished The Glass Bees by Ernst Junger. That...was not what I was expecting. I'm a disillusioned tank officer in real life and the narrator's character hit me like a ton of bricks (although he's been through way more shit than I have, being heavily based on Junger himself).
I'm doing some professional reading now, when I pick up another SF book it'll probably be Lyonesse.
>Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein?
Probably Clarke but on the right day I might say Heinlein just because I don't like Clarke's attitude. I've really never liked Asimov that much.
>Outer space vs future earth
Future Earth, although when I was younger I preferred outer space stories.
>Fantasy
I don't read much fantasy. My guess is back to escapist hack and slash stuff.
>Recommendations
Wolfe if they are completely up their own ass, otherwise Vance.
Is there any sci-fi where a lower-tech species is depicted with hard sci-fi tech, and the tech of a more advanced one is intentionally much softer?
>>7507311
>lurk more
Do you think this is 2006?
>>7507311
>His type of person does not belong on 4chan
It's not a club. There are no rules here you are consulted on. Grow up little man.
>What you are you currently reading?
When True Night Falls by C S Friedman
>If you had to decide: Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein?
Asimov
>Do you prefer outer space stuff or future Earth stories?
I'm not sure. I guess i like them both if they're well executed but i think i slightly prefer future earth.
>In what direction do you think Fantasy will move in the next decade? More GRRM? more muh politics on a grand scale? Back to Hack and slash and adventure?
More GRRM ripoffs.
>Which book, if any, would you recommend to muh genre-fiction il/lit/erates?
Gateway
>>7507662
That is effectively the setting of the Time Machine by H.G. Wells.
>>7507679
I wish we could have 2006 4chan back.
>>7506119
Wtf, that is The Magicians by Lev Grossman....
>>7507715
You enjoying the cat girls?
How do i enjoy Malazan? I've been forcing myself through the first book and it's just not interesting me.
>>7506119
>12 books
bit much for me to just dive into right now. sounds interesting enough though.
>>7508535
stop reading then, it doesn't really get better
>>7508535
You skip the first book and start on the second. The first book is shit.
If the second book still doesn't interest you, then the rest of the series won't. Don't bother trying more than that.
>>7508570
Aight. Thanks
I love the Night Angel trilogy. Any recommendations?
I'm always slightly irritated by the SFFantasy threads on lit. I regularly see people recommend Gene Wolfe alongside the likes of Ursula LeGuin or Frank Herbert or Asimov. Wolfe is head and shoulders above those writers.
>>7508707
I love Book of the New Sun but its kind of like Evangelion where people confuse complexity with deepness and shit. Wolfe just seems better and deep and shit because "DUDE PROSE LMAO"
>>7508812
Wolfe is pretty deep and it shows across numerous works with less sophisticated prose.
So everyone thinks mistborn is shite?
>>7508558
They're very short, like 200-300 pages apiece and the prose is simple enough to digest--same author as Animorphs if you ever read those. You could read the entire series in around two days if you wanted.
>>7508962
>same author as Animorphs if you ever read those.
I'll pass then.
Is Wheel of Time as good as they say?
I remember a time when it was recommended alongside Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice and Fire.
>>7509002
Isnt it just a fantasy harem?
>>7509002
Literary-wise, it isn't fantastic. The plot can be very predictable, the characters one-dimensional and many events can be seemingly unnecessary.
Despite all these faults, however, the author of the final three books pick up where Robert Jordan starts to fail, around books 7 - 10 in my opinion. I truthfully enjoyed reading all 14 books, the world he created, and the feels it gave me.
>>7506093
>I did come here expecting some real discussion and good literary criticism
See this is where you went wrong. This is 4chan, it's all shitposting, emphasis on the shit.
Just check how asking for reccomendations usually gets ignored. It's because most of these nitwits haven't read enough to be able to reccommend books outside of the old stuff.
Me I come here once in a while just so I can help with reccs.
>>7503450
I reccomend Brent Weeks Night Angel and Lightbringer series, not as in depth on the world building but the worlds he weaves are very different from the usual.
For something a little older I reccommend Robin Hobbs Farseer trilogy.
>>7508664
Start with Lightbringer by the same author, three books and a fourth coming soon. Other reccomendations depend on what you want in similarities to Night Angel.
>>7502926
The Clockwork Century series by Cheryl Priest is pretty cool and I also second >>7503365 on Jim Butchers Cinder Spires, though it also has some magic in it.
>>7507249
>Am I a pleb?
Nah not really, you like some good books too and at least you know Painted Man sucks.
>>7507465
Sure. It's not particularly complicated. Go for it.
>>7508535
Sounds like you should drop it.
>>7509002
Who is "they"? It's mediocre to be honest. Not awful as a whole but not a patch on the other two series you mentioned.
>>7509029
>and the feels it gave me.
>mfw I will never forget when Rand and Asmodean fought. Memory of a lifetime.
>Enterprise Stardust finally arrived in the mail
Time to see what got the Germans so hot and bothered.
>>7509047
>Other reccomendations depend on what you want in similarities to Night Angel
I liked the wetwork and stealth shit
>>7508972
Why? 2dark4u?
Anyone got a science fiction series (or very long book) about humans getting into space/meeting aliens/surviving?
Something like Spin or Seveneves?
>>7509680
The Expanse series
>>7501784
I admit, it it all could fit but there has been no foreshadowing whatsoever for any science fiction-y stuff, and GRRM has confirmed that some aspects of the world have magical reasons behind them - the really long and inconsistent season thing and the dragons (not 100% sure about that one).
>>7503450
>rothfuss
>characters done well
People get so wound up over Rothfuss lol.
He's a good writer with interesting ideas and I love the lyrical nature of the story.
I don't read fantasy for deep insights into the human psyche.
I just want a good story (not necessarily original, how many stories in the past 1000yrs have been truly original rather than amalgamations of other tales?), and some character who's awesome with a sword I can fanboi over.
Anomander Rake
Logen Nine Fingers
Al'Lan
Jaime Lannnister
The Fool (doesn't really fit but he's still awesome)
>>7509774
Rothfuss is shit at everything you said you like him for.
![maxresdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/W9Bptyf.jpg "maxresdefault[1].jpg")
Is the Bridge trilogy as good as the Sprawl trilogy?
I have a question... I see The Wheel of Time on the recommended reading list. Does anyone actually consider this to be quality fantasy literature?
>>7508962
>very short, like 200-300 pages
>very short
>like 200-300 pages
>>7509782
I respectfully disagree.
I just read the painted man and the writing in that is so abrupt and somehow "jarring".
I find it difficult to explain really.
But I find Rothfuss' style really easy to read.
>>7509828
I really enjoyed the first handful of books.
There's some awesome moments.
Like the flashback of the naughty man wizard killing people and they just sing in retaliation.
But it got shit at book 6 or 7
>>7509853
The Wheel of Time is incredibly mediocre. There is nothing exceptional about it. Simply put, Tolkien did everything better than Jordan. The books are a slog, and then we have the video game writing master himself finish the last 3. And yes, before you ask, I have read all of the books. I even enjoyed reading them somewhat. It's just not good.
>>7509849
Easy to read =/= good.
>>7509910
You want a book written in sanskrit riddles?
>>7509853
just to clarify I gave up at 6/7.
Never finished them.
>>7506324
LOL, if Rothfuss is bad then Gibson should be fucking deleted from existence. Abercrombie is edge lord with no imagination. LeGuin fantasy is terrible read her sf. Peake is pretentious and pointless. Stephenson could use better editing but he can be really good. Zelanzy can't finish anything in a satisfying way. Wolfe is meme.
What's up faggots it's your homeboy here coming at you with another request for READING MATERIAL, okay, to do with what I'm going to call: Space. Realism.
Space Realism, okay; so basically what that means if Science fiction that takes place in a realistic setting between people who live actual drama. So the families of Dune, I'd think, or maybe something a bit like the politics of star trek but in a more gritty - you know, a more realistic attitude, not just wow okay we won the day - attitude.
Thanks again your homeboy here coming at you with love peace out!
>>7509710
The season thing is another thing that happens in his sci-fi novels, with scientific reasons that he explains.
>>7510101
Good job, my mind read that just like it was some Youtube faggot. Spot on.
>>7510090
Itt plebs are mad
>>7500858
I'm going to blow your mind with some shit right here, bend over and bite the pillow because I'm going in dry.
Fantasy will be heavily steered by weeaboos writing western shounen.
Sup /lit/,
I don't really post on this board so I'm hoping this is the right thread for it. I could use some help finding a book I read ages ago that I'd like to reread.
All I remember is it took place during or after an alien invasion, and the earth has been just about conquered. The aliens either built large buildings in our cities that they lived in, or they parked their ships there.
The aliens were telepaths, and could sense hate in our minds so they could kill us before we can get a chance to kill them. There was on particular scene where this crazy guy is trying to kill this alien going down the road. He doesn't hate the creature however, he loves it. He thinks it's the most beautiful god damn thing he's ever seen. As he radiates all these good vibes the alien doesn't sense anything wrong, and he pulls the trigger on his weapon successfully killing the alien.
This gives hope to the resistance and I think they utilize similar practices later on.
I read it about ten years ago, and it it didn't seem new when I got it.
I know this isn't much to go on, but if anyone has an idea I'd appreciate it.
>>7508812
You're comparing Book of the New Sun with Evangelion? I don't think we have anything further to discuss.
Any good french Sci-fi / fantasy author ?So far I've read René Barjavel (good), Pierre Bottero (meh) and Anne Robillard (shit).
>>7509830
200-300 isn't short?
>>7510347
Most books have a length of 250-300 pages, about 60,000 to 80,000 words
>>7510360
Most fantasy books have at least another 100 on that bud.
>>7501891
Go read Recluce or something dude.
I need another recommendation. I previously asked for books involving foreign concepts as I'm tired of the somewhat formulaic approach most authors have.
I was recommended Solaris. While a decent book, it wasn't really all that foreign and what was foreign was so utterly foreign that even the author didn't know how to make sense of it.
So I'm looking for another book with foreign concepts in them. Something you haven't quite seen anywhere else. But it should also make sense, hence why I didn't think Solaris was a particularly good fit.
>>7510472
The Quantum Thief?
>What you are you currently reading?
The Rise of Endymion. Really enjoying the whole hyperion cantos. A lot of good stuff although it sometimes gets too deep into poetry.
So far i think Hyperion>Endymion>Rise of Endymion>Fall of Hyperion.
Fall of Hyperion is just too convoluted.
>If you had to decide: Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein?
Probably Asimov. I like a lot of Heinlein books too. I read foundation and I Robot but they're a bit dry. Not bad but dry.
>Do you prefer outer space stuff or future Earth stories?
Doesn't matter.
>Which book, if any, would you recommend to muh genre-fiction il/lit/erates?
Cryptonomicon, Footfall and Old Mans war are all pretty nice and easy reads.
>>7510476
Thanks. Will look into it.
Does it lend itself well to being an Audiobook?
>>7510509
The beginning is very hard to get into because the author drops you right into it and for the remainder of the book there are 0 info-dumps that explain anything, so I'd guess listening to it while doing something else will be confusing
>>7505319
He occasionally goes over events he already told, and suddenly mentions additional details that put that particular event in a different light. That's the biggest giveaway he's an unreliable narrator when you're reading the books for the first time.
>>7509830
Do you not read books often? Especially Fantasy? Serious question.
Can anyone recommend something similar to Blindsight by Peter Watts?
Is The Black Company any good?
>>7510868
Compared to what? I think its fucking terrible but maybe u like different things.
>>7509002
the first books were top class but after I think book 3 they dropped in quality
What are the best books with dragons in them? Preferably of at least human-level intelligence.
>>7502364
Garth Nix is a good YA fantasy author.
Always enjoyed John Bellairs books
I just finished Dune. Should I bother with the others or move on to other books?
>>7506133
>>7506096
First anon here, holy SHIT thank you for recommending "The Long Ships"
this book is fucking fantastic. How the hell have I never heard of it before? This has everything it needs to be a "hidden gem" meme book like BOTNS or Blood Meridian
>amazing adventure story
>fantastic writing style and characters
>funny
>predates Tolkein influence
>about fucking Vikings pillaging and raping
man, I'm only 60 pages in and sad that there's only 500
Now I trust you so much I'm gonna go straight onto "The Once and Future King"
>>7512131
It gets better, at peaks with God Emperor of Dune, but the ones after that are still good.
The last two are written by his son based on his notes, and are skippable quality, however you won't have a conclusion to the story.
>>7506300
Why only the first? From reading reviews/opinions everywhere else it's the first book that's only "good" and the third seems to be everyone's favorite
>difficult writing style
even though I barely read I can hardly tell what's supposed to be good and bad writing styles
Like I loved The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo and people all over complain about how dry and unncessarily detailed it is. That's what I loved about it. Already posted about reading The Long Ships and it reads like the god damned Bible and it's perfect. Then I try to read shit like GRMM and his limited vocabulary, repetition and distrust of the readers memory, and story padding with intentional focus on the mundane bored and frustrated the shit out of me
>>7512186
Hmm, so I'll check it out after reading Blood Meridian, Imperium and How to Win Friends and Influence People - sorta/kinda on a self-improvement path.
Dragon In Chains by Daniel Fox
>>7512194
I read the first one not realising there were sequels until years later when I'd already forgotten too much of what happened. I'd have to re-read the first one again, I think, before moving onto the other ones.
He doesn't have a difficult writing style, just a different one, especially the dialogue. It's kind of really dry and literal. It's great.
>>7510360
>mfw my longest fan fiction is over 150,000 words
>it's not even half over yet
If a fantasy book isn't at least 600 pages it better be very, very good.
>>7512352
>If a fantasy book isn't at least 600 pages it better be very, very good.
I used to think this when I first started reading, too.
It's the opposite, though. If a book is that long it better be very, very good if I'm going to devote so much time to it. A short book that isn't good I can live with.
Just started reading Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. First PKD novel. Any thoughts on him? American Gods by Neil Gaiman on deck.
>>7512440
That's what I hate about so much "modern" fantasy, most of these tomes are filler
I dropped the Chronicles of Amber somewhere in the middle because it kept just repeating itself
I've had a comforting thought:
I'm not a great writer. I'm getting better by reading/writing every day, but I'm not where I'd like to be. I've been worldbuilding for a long time, and I think, I think I'm just going to write to make me happy. I never wanted to be published. Self publish, put it online for free for anyone to read.
I'm going to do my best to not write garbage, but I think I'm becoming okay with my generic fantasy garbage.
Anyway, I'm reading Dandelion Wine by Ray Bradbury right now. Not really sci-fi, but some elements of magical realism going on in there.
Let me ask: Is anyone ITT writing something? Are you world-building?
>>7512500
>Let me ask: Is anyone ITT writing something? Are you world-building?
I've got a classic case of "world without a story".
>>7510233
Sorry man, but that's really not enough to go on at all. Can you remember if it's part of a series? And about how old it is?
>>7512500
You just summed up my thoughts. I've also been worldbuilding for years through day-dreams, so figured i could give it a shot
>>7509828
The Wheel of Time is my favorite fantasy series I've ever read, but I will be the first to point out its failings.
It's mind-bogglingly, needlessly long. It's fourteen fucking books. The story is not concise or to the point at all. It meanders and wanders and takes its damn time. That could be good or bad, depending on your personal preferences. I enjoyed that, many people don't.
The most often-cited downside to Jordan's writing, other than the length, is his prose when it comes to dialogue and human interactions. It's very repetitive. Certain phrases are repeated over and over throughout the story, to describe characters' mannerisms and body language. Dialogue as a whole was done fairly poorly. The story was clearly written by a man--the male characters are much more deep and multi-faceted than the female ones. However, being a young man myself this makes it a comfortable and easy read. You notice the way people are described change, depending on whether he's writing from a man's perspective or a woman's--when you're in a segment following Egwene or Nyneave, many different characteristics are mentioned right away when a new character is introduced, but from the perspective of Rand or another young male, any time a female character is introduced, their physical attractiveness is noticeably the first thing used in their description. It's a nice touch.
His prose in other areas varies from decent to uncommonly good. Outside of dialogue and human interaction, I found it to be a comfortable, smooth but elegant read. The prose isn't dumbed-down for young adults like Sanderson, but it isn't trying hard to be fancy and archaic either, like Tolkein or LeGuin. (And yes, you notice it get a little worse on the parts Sanderson co-authored after Jordan died, but Jordan wrote all the important parts.) It reads just like Grandpa telling you a story by the fireplace.
However, Jordan's biggest skill, and the one that made him my personal favorite fantasy author, is his worldbuilding. Move over Tolkein, Jordan has laid out the most elaborate world and set of cultures I've ever seen. You come out of that story feeling personally familiar with all the different cultures, factions, and political alliances of the world. (You also come out of it feeling like you've run a fucking marathon, but that's not all bad.) They are explored in depth one by one as the protagonists adventure and explore, but their allegiances and plans all affect the world in deep and varied ways. There's a lot of politicking and intrigue, but it's not paced to be overdramatic like in, say, ASOIAF. It feels a lot more genuine. The magic system is perfect--it has rules and is explained enough to avoid being a complete deus ex machina and changing the story without explanation, but it's still mysterious and interesting. Overall, just the world itself is a unique and beautiful piece of artwork that I admired.
..So, yes, I do believe it's quality literature.
>>7512686
Rand is a horrible protagonist.
>I DON'T WANT TO GO ON AN ADVENTURE
>I WANT TO FARM PIGS
>I DON'T WANT TO LEARN MAGIC AND STUFF
>I WANT TO FARM PIGS
>I DON'T WANT A HAREM OF HOT GIRLS
>I JUST WANT TO FARM PIGS
>>7512500
Ayyy same. I've got bits and pieces straddled out but that's about it.
The way I think of improvement matches yours. So long as you're working conscientiously and making things that you like, you're improving. The rest is just a matter of time, and no matter how good (or bad) it is you'll always have the work. Y'know?
>>7506324
>>7506514
>>7507123
>>7507156
>>7507273
>>7507311
All right, you pile of cock gobbling faggots. I have two things I would like to point out.
First: I'm not a hypocrite. What I was asking for is a quick overview of the works of LeGuin, it's pros and cons as compared to the works of other well-known fantasy authors. Someone else asked for a review of an author I'm more familiar with, and I delivered. I do this all the time for authors I know. This was me: >>7512686 . It took all of three minutes. That's what a brief review looks like. That's all I was asking for, just give me that for LeGuin or Wolfe or whatever other fantasy author you'd recommend. I do it all the time.
Secondly: I have begun reading LeGuin's Earthsea as it was the most often recommended example of "good" fantasy. I was willing to give your recommendations a chance, and I want to broaden my reading experience a little. I will complete at least the first book, to give it a fair chance.
However: So far, it's absolute balls. The prose is not natural or flowing at all. LeGuin deliberately uses archaic sentence structures, and throws in "yet"'s and "thus"'s to make it seem old and mysterious. Is this really what you consider good prose? The writing so far is not effective at conveying the story at all. It deliberately slows down and obscures it, and not in a good way. It reads like the fucking Bible. The writing style's not elegant or beautiful. It's irritating and cringeworthy.
Also, I have noticed that she never really describes scenes in detail. I am not very far into the book yet--unlike many people here, I have a job and not a lot of free time--and I realize it could be just a weirdly long introduction of the character Ged, but so far it seems to be just skating over events and skipping between scenes, without really ever slowing down to describe any one scene in detail. I enjoy elaborate detail in my reading, and I've been disappointed so far.
Does it get better, or is this what you consider to be good literature?
>>7512699
It's actually sheep. But I agree, to some extent.
However, I was raised in a small town, and I know many people who would react exactly that way in the same situation. Believe it or not, that's realistic.
>>7512596
That's not all bad.
A good fantasy story can sometimes be just a vehicle to explore an elaborate and interesting world. We're discussing Wheel of Time a lot in this thread, that's a perfect example of that. The story's nothing special or unique, but the world's amazing.
>>7512728
I grew up in a small town (less than 3,000 people, nearest "city" of over 100k was an hours drive) and I couldn't wait to get out. I've been to DC, Anchorage, Chicago, Orlando, San Antonio - I love big cities.
It boggles the mind.
>>7512765
My town had a population of about 450, and it takes an hour to get to the nearest city of just over 30,000. You live in a large town. But I agree, I like to get out and travel, but I'd never want to settle down in a large city. I need land and space to be comfortable.
I don't have it myself, but the mentality of just wanting to spend your whole life where you were raised, work in a trade and build your house just like Dad and Grandpa did, is a real thing. I love travel, but I see a lot of people who would be uncomfortable leaving for long, enough to make Rand's actions believable.
>>7512788
We must be completely different. My ideal life is a comfy apartment downtown in DC or New York, two or three rooms, a block down from a subway station.
Yards, woods, driving - that shit is for idiots. Urban life is best.
>>7512822
Yeah... we're pretty different.
My ideal life is first to travel the world--I'm saving money for that now--then to buy a fuckload of cheap land in Alaska or Montana or something and build my own house. In the city you have no privacy, everyone knows what you're doing. I need privacy and space, out in the country no one gives a fuck what you do. I could build a tank in my garage, I could set up a ham radio antenna, I could do whatever I want on my land.
>>7512829
Coincidentally, I currently live in Alaska. It's not as great as everyone thinks and you're not as free as you think, either.
>>7512837
Really? Why's that? I love the beautiful country--I'm in Maine right now and all I want is this but with more mountains and more winter, so I assumed it would be perfect.
And what makes you less free there? If I were to buy a bunch of land in the middle of nowhere, who would care what I did or try to stop me? (The whole build a tank thing wasn't rhetorical, by the way. I actually want to build a tank.)
>>7510868
I liked the first book the most, where it's basically about a simple physician/chronicler detailing his shenanigans with the mercenary company he's a part of. Lots of banter and battles. It gets worse later on, IMO. I'm currently reading the sixth book and I don't really like it any more.
>>7512846
Because you are tethered to cities here more than ever. Electricity, food, fuel, general upkeep materials that you can't manmode yourself, etc.
Also a lot of municipal rules about what you can burn or how you can hunt or set up your house. And you can't just escape, either. Any further north than Fairbanks and you risk actual death during the winter if you're by yourself.
>>7512916
That doesn't mean you "can't" just escape, it just means you need good gear and to know your shit. Our winters aren't as bad here in Maine but I do know my way around in the cold and snow, as long as you have the right gear, keep well hydrated and have a heat source nearby it can't be too bad.
And you can pretty much manmode all of that, except food. Fuel, you can use wood--I was raised in a house heated with only wood, the work's a bitch but you can do it. For myself I plan to use a combination wood/pellet stove, convenient when you can buy pellets but still self-reliant when you can't. Electricity, I want to use a lot of solar panels, and for backup a generator run from a wood furnace.
Would it be against the rules to build your house by digging a bunker into the side of a hill? That was kind of my plan
>>7512930
You just keep repeating yourself. Lots of insulting. Lots of condescension. No real literary criticism or information. That's all your posts have been.
You say I "only care about superficial". So can you tell me what you think are the important characteristics of a fantasy story, if not the ones I outlined? I don't think the setting and prose are superficial at all.
What do you consider to be an example of good fantasy, and why? Please be specific, as I have been throughout this entire thread. "autistic dnd game", "garbage", and "shit taste" don't mean anything.
Yes, thank you, I do have a tight anus.
>>7512963
Then, I'm going to ask yet again: Why in the everloving fuck are you here? On a board specifically for the discussion of literature?
Are you just here to circlejerk with other people that have the same tastes as you, to make you feel sophisticated and intellectual? Look at me, I read books by Russian philosophers, I'm better than you! But actually discussing the writing and what makes literature good is too much work...
>inb4 memes
OH FUCK RIGHT OFF AND DIE IN A HOLE
>>7512935
Again, main winters do not compare to -50 with an additional windchill. Your lungs actually start to freeze.
Food is a big problem. Lots of big game in Alaska, but the things up here actually might eat you back (bear are a real problem in some areas). You'll have plenty of meat, but your growing season in some places is a matter of 2 or 3 months.
And power: currently our daylight hours are from 9:00am to 2:00pm. And they're going to get shorter. And this is for over half of the year.
You could maybe do it in southern Alaska, where it's a lot milder, but you'll have to put up with some people down there. Anything further north than Anchorage and you are still going to be tied to a city for a lot of your things.
Then again, I've only been up here a year and I'm living on a military base. Take everything I say with a grain of salt. Try reading Into the Wild - it's actually pretty relevant (I'm going to go be a tourist at the bus next year sometime).
>>7510865
Anyone? All I see talked about in these threads are the same old SFF dreck.
>>7513017
Hard science fiction is boring and dry. Get some taste.
>>7513028
>Rest just aren't worth risking since SFF has loads of Rothfuss tier shit.
That's exactly the kind of thing that gets mentioned over and over again here.
>>7512686
I was torn about whether to read these again.
I got halfway through the series and gave up.
But think I'll give it another go.
>>7512935
>Solar power in the arctic
LOL
Tell us more about your rugged mountain man ways fellow 4chan /lit/ poster.
>>7513081
Just remember, you are taking advice who honestly thinks Sanderson and Rothfuss are quality authors.
>>7500682
What are some scifi books that make you feel it is scifi like spaceships, different planets, etc. I read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and Scanner Darkly but I'm looking for quintessential scifi. Where should I start?
>>7513283
There isn't much of that in the essential list honestly.
Probably Dune or some Clarke stuff.
>>7513262
I like both of them :).
Can we still be friends?
>>7513081
>But think I'll give it another go.
I wouldn't bother. There's so much more good stuff out there, man. You can read up how it all works out on wikipedia or something and save yourself literally thousands of pages of menopausal witches tugging their hair.
>>7513329
Essentially it's like 40k, books themselves are mostly shit, but wiki pages are pretty cool.
Anybody got an equivalent to Wolf Hall in Space?
>>7513262
Cuckold. Am I speaking your language, whelp?
>>7513351
No, that's /pol/ language.
I speak the same video game book world building reddit language as you.
>>7513349
Try Wolf Hall in Space by Jeremy Overton.
>>7513366
Keep trying, lad
>>7512686
>Move over Tolkein, Jordan has laid out the most elaborate world and set of cultures I've ever seen
Tolkien made several actually full constructed languages. I have yet to see another author do that.
>>7513370
Try Space Wolves in the Hall by Michael F. Knickerbacker.
What are some good ass pre-LOTR fantasy hidden gems that arent Eddison or Dunsany?
>>7513417
He also did it in just about 1/10th of pages
>>7513472
I somehow doubt Jordan's constructed languages are any way near as complex or fleshed out as Tolkiens.
>Robert Jordan ruined lives with his shitty, overlong, and bloated fantasy series
>He is posthumously ruining scifi/fantasy threads on /lit/ with shitty, overlong, and bloated arguments about his shitty, overlong, and bloated series
>>7512930
I care even less about your autistic shit if you can't control yourself go to /b/ or /r9k/.
>>7512987
The lower temperatures you just need the proper equipment to handle. When lung freezing is a problem you wear one or even two masks.
I know I can't be completely independent of the city. I have read Into the Wild, and that's not what I'm trying to do at all. I just want some amount of independence, maybe only have to go to the city a handful of times a month to stock up. I'd like to be off the grid if possible, but that doesn't mean being a total hermit.
Speaking of Into the Wild (since this is /lit/ after all), I actually think the Alaska adventure was the least and worst of Chris's achievements. From a camping perspective, it was terrible. He didn't bring half the shit he needed. He didn't even have good winter boots until some random hunter gave him a pair. I'm more impressed by the rest of what he did--traveling across the entire US with no identification or money, hitchhiking and making friends everywhere he went. I wish the story went more into detail about that part--and I wish I had the balls to do that.
>>7509255
Ok, in that case:
Farsser trilogy by Robin Hobbs has some good assassin training scenes and poisoning deaths, but the MC is ultimately not really good as an assassin. Still a good read.
Gentleman Bastards series by Scott Lynch is about a group of thieves. Is in my too read pile but I hear good things about it.
Something a little more obscure is the Thieves' World series. It's a shared universe started by Robert Asprin and included a lot of the big names from the 80 fantasy scene. It has about 20 books, though I've only managed to get the first one. Most of them are antololgies of short stories and have all kinds of thieves from stealthy guys to barbarian thugs kicking down doors.
>>7512718
jesus fucking christ you're a faggot
do you want us to spoonfeed you like you're a fucking baby?
OPEN WIDE, HERE COMES DA TWAIN! CHOO-CHOO! GOOD BABY!
>>7513907
You're repeating yourself again. Informative discussion != spoonfeeding.
I asked specific questions about your opinion on prose in literature, and pointed out failings in the writing I am discussing. When you shit on authors I like, you just say "autistic" and "shit taste". I at least do you the courtesy of providing reasons and giving you something solid you can dispute.
It is not asking for "spoonfeeding" to ask if that really is what you consider good literature and why. It is a solid, relevant question that you consistently evade.
>>7513316
Which Clarke stuff? My dad has a lot of his books lying around.
Hey guys. Took (>>7512500) philosophy to heart and wrote something. I'm not very good, I know that.
But I wrote something. Some fantasy crap as part of a story I've got. It's supposed to reveal some character traits and stuff. How does it read?
http://pastebin.com/D0JTFKuB
pic unrelated
>>7514147
Okay. You're touching on a wide range of emotions here. Camaraderie, joking, and then serious and hurt. If this is your first attempt, I commend you, since this actually works really well. I get a good sense of the characters. Jin seems like a very lonely old man trying to impress people for friends. I get the sense that he's kinda pathetic, and the way he crumbles when Ben gets angry with him is actually very telling.
I don't know much about Ben aside from the fact that he's probably no from a wealthy family and because of that he's got a strong moral compass that was violated. No idea who Kage is, but he also seems to be someone who violated Ben's sense of right and wrong
Eric doesn't seem very intelligent, but he seems honest. Almost...God stop me if I'm in the wrong, but like a shonen protag? Make sure he doesn't become generic and shitty
Otherwise it's actually pretty good.
>>7514249
Also a scrimmer I assume is someone who uses illusion magic.
Oh and the dialog was decent. Because Jin started off so seld-assured and then lost his composure quickly
>>7514249
Thank you! It was an amateur attempt. Never done anything like this before.
>.God stop me if I'm in the wrong, but like a shonen protag? Make sure he doesn't become generic and shitty
No, you're somwhat correct. He's very impulsive, but he only means well. He's ardently good, and has a clearer capacity for people's situations and backgrounds than his friend. But you're somewhat right. I'm just writing things I've always personally wanted to write. I'll do my best to make sure he doesn't devolve into shit. I plan on the lot of them growing a lot more mature and their characters changing individually as time goes on.
>I don't know much about Ben aside from the fact that he's probably no from a wealthy family and because of that he's got a strong moral compass that was violated. No idea who Kage is, but he also seems to be someone who violated Ben's sense of right and wrong
Correct. He's almost motherly.
Kage is an Aalsark (custom race) who they're traveling with as a way to get into the closely guarded city states of Vaalsen. His character as a smuggler and someone unwilling to bend to authority is actually contradictory to the nature of the Aalsark, so I'm working on ways to make him grow as well! Plus I love his character design.
>>7514260
Yes. Scrimmer is just slang, derived from "scammer". These people are notorious dick faces and usually abuse their magic.
Part of the world building. I'm practicing being careful with my exposition and only revealing things needed for the plot to progress or to make the characters seem unique. I've got a lorebook for anyone dedicated enough to read it.
Thank you anon!
>>7514425
That's the style I prefer to read.
I don't want data dumps, story and characters. The world should be explored through the characters interaction with it as and when it's relevant.
Any writers here? I'm an aspiring casual fantasy author and I was looking for good resources on grammar/writing/how to get started, stuff like that.
>>7514443
That's what makes these fun to read! When someone can guide the reader through a world and experience it with them. I do my share of world-building. It's a fun hobby. But you always gotta modify it for consumption ya know? You can't just vomit your 20-year's worth of world building on people and expect it to take, right? Like, here's kinda how I gauge it.
In Star Wars, we know very little about the force until learning about it becomes part of Luke's training (or, more importantly, his character arc). It serves a purpose to the plot, to his character, ontop of being a world-building element. I'm doing something similar with my magic. It's central to the plot as it's tied with the soul.
>>7514457
I wrote >>7514147 as a little excerpt. My grammar is terrible however, going back and fixing some mistakes.
I got started by world building. My goal was always to build a comprehensive FRAMEWORK for fantasy stories. A plot and characters could be devised within them. Tell me, you build any worlds in your head lad?
As far as getting started: Read. Read every single damn day. And write too. Never stop these things. Everything is a learning exercise. Sorry, that's the best advice I can give you.
>>7506096
Not fantasy, but you might enjoy Musashi. Imagine the style and grit of Seven Samurai, just as a long novel.
>>7514468
I tend to go off on random tangents and build stories off of that, like, 'Hey, I wonder if it'd be interesting to have gods make sacrifices to humanity, instead of vice versa, since belief in a god is the only thing that makes it exist', and other such things. And yeah, I have. I have kind of one world built on a bit, a modern fantasy/cyberpunk thing set up. It was originally a group project for an RP, but I took over it once I left/broke up with the other people working on it. I do read a lot, and I just need to write more. I have seriously huge problems with commitment. I don't think I've written a damn thing past 10k words, and that's a huge issue.
>>7514488
I'm in the same boat as you. The both of us may be above average writers (speaking, above the standard English paper) but that doesn't mean our works just appear out of thin air. I've tried writing 1k words a day, even if they're bad. It's a hard habit to get into, but it's essential. Most I've ever written was 15k. Part of being an amateur I suppose.
>>7514496
The thing is, we can't compare our works to the 'standard english paper'. Comparing our works to something someone is forced to write is like comparing a handcrafted sweater made as a product of genuine enthusiasm to one you get from old navy. We have to compare, to, naturally, the best in our field, the best selling, the best written, the best produced.
We write, ultimately, genre fiction. We write to entertain people, we write to give people a journey they can't get from movies or TV. And... There's a lot of people like us. To say we're not the worst is an obvious fact that won't get us anywhere. Hell, E.L. James isn't even the worst erotica writer. We have to do better than 'not the worst', if we want to get anywhere.
I dunno if that was warranted, but it was something I've noticed back when I started to talk about writing, and really pursued it. Now that I'm getting into it again, I feel like it's nice advice to pass on.
>>7514578
I believe academic writing goes hand in hand with other writing. To be honest, academic writing is the core of a writer's skills. It's one of the first things we learn to do, and from then on we branch out with this framework imbued in our prose. I relish papers. It's a chance for me to continue to grow in one aspect of the written word, and to practice writing to word counts and ends.
>an obvious fact that won't get us anywhere
How do you define "getting somehwere"? Some of us are just writing to do justice to our day dreams and others want to be published.
>>7508664
Godspeaker trilogy
>>7511735
Eragon :^)
>>7514626
To be fair I'm in core English/Writing classes at the moment, where the level of effort is certainly lacking. Good academic writing certainly is wonderful and teaches structure, which is what makes for solid, enjoyable fiction.
By getting somewhere, I mean, well, obviously the goal is different for everyone, but I feel like a goal that can be shared between all writers is 'being proud of one's work', and saying, 'Well, I'm not the worst', has this slight feeling of compromise to it,in my opinion, like, you aren't proud of your work, but you're not disgusted by it either.
>>7514706
I think for me it comes from humbleness and lack of confidence. I've been "proud' of a lot of things only to later go back and deem them shit. Success may not always be defined by the opinions and reactions of others, but I would honestly say it's at least half. No matter how hard you try, you're always going to at least seek the validation of others, yeah? So I place myself at "not the worst", because I edit/help write this stuff for friends. There's a clear distinction between someone with talent/practice, and someone with neither/only one of these things. And they seek help for this very reason. They may be okay with what they write but they know this isn't a vacuum, our writing does not exist by itself.
I strive to be "proud of my work". I think you're right in that's it's one of the goals. It's an integral part of being a writer. But also comparing oneself with others is a necessary and natural process in writing. It helps us grow.
>>7501784
The state of their planet is enough to justify being science fiction.
Reading Metro 2033. About 25% through... does it pick up?
>>7514147
Minus the small errors this is pretty good.
