Hey /lit/
I'd like to ask for recommendations about literature (be it narrative, philosophical or non-fiction) about friendship or the lack of it
Recently in my life I've noticed that I don't have very strong relationships with people from my age, or rather, I give too much but recieve less and this leads to sadness (have a group of 'friends' but be ostracized or looked down upon, for example).
I don't mean to make this thread about wojack and frog posting, or how people misunderstand me and I'm not the problem, because more often than not I should be the reason as to why I'm not having good meaningful friendships. I know the literary lifestyle might lead to loneliness, but I don't mean to follow it for now.
I feel like I'm oblivious about social interactions and analysis at the moment (and I don't want to make this a thread about 'lmao u an autist lad'), even more than I did before when I was a kid, so the first step should be to educate myself and then apply what I've learn. Yet I don't think that reading pop-psychology and self-help books will do anything (i.e. How to Make Friends and Influence Others) because it's not about 'faking' a behaviour until I do it right, I really want to comprehend this type of things since I (and society) has placed comradery so high, yet it seems distant and alien to my life. Even if this leads into very technical psychological books, it might be fun and rewarding. I know the answer for many of you might be something along the lines of 'friendship is a spook, care only about yourself', but still I want to know.
Thanks in advance
>I feel like I'm oblivious about social interactions and analysis at the moment
Tell you the truth, if you don't do drugs and party every weekend the closest you'll get to contemporary social interactions is shitposting on this website and chatting on Facebook.
Not even being ironic or trolling here, I too feel really disenfranchised from today's social scene, but it mostly boils down to it being you laying on your bed texting with your friends...
fortress of solitude by lethem
don quixote
probably something victorian written by a woman too
>>7394986
Cool topic. I taught a class with this as a major strand. Here are a few readings that I'd recommend.
- Cicero, from De Amicitia (44 B.C.).
- Michel de Montaigne, “Of Friendship” (1580); - - Francis Bacon, “Of Friendship” & “Of Followers and Friends” (1625).
- Ralph Waldo Emerson, “Friendship” (1841)
- C.S. Lewis, “Friendship,” from The Four Loves (1958).
- Jacques Derrida, The Politics of Friendship (1991).
- Renaissance literature of friendship: William Shakespeare, sonnets 29, 30, & 104 (1609); John Donne, “Meditation 17” (1624); Amelia Lanyer, “Description of Cookham” (1611); Ben Jonson, “Inviting a Friend to Supper” (1612); Richard Lovelace, “The Grasshopper” (1649); Katherine Philips, “Friendship’s Mystery, To My Dearest Lucasia” & “To Mrs. M.A. at Parting” (1664).
- William Deresiewicz, “The End of Solitude” (2009). http://chronicle.com/article/The-End-of-Solitude/3708 (A cool and provocative essay about friednship in the facebook era).
In summary: friendship up until the Renaissance was incredibly intense and often described in a vocabulary that sounds to us almost like falling in love or finding your other half. Just now, we're a bit more isolated because we all have 1000 facebook friends but not much intimacy. Take care of yourself, OP, and make time to get close to those who seem important.
Lot of articles on solitude here:
http://www.hermitary.com/articles/
http://www.hermitary.com/solitude/nietzsche.html
http://www.hermitary.com/solitude/epictetus.html
>>7394986
You can't make meaningful relationships in this era.
>>7395005
>everyone is decadent i'm too pure for this world woe is me
tone it down dorian gray
>>7395005
I do drugs and party every weekend while also reading in my spare time. It's not one or the other.
OP: read Montaigne. He has a couple of essays on solitude and friendship.
>>7395005
I mean, I do drugs and drink like 3-6 days a month, but still I can't find another 'soul' that I can relate to on the same level that he/she can relate to me.
Every relation I've had is either:
>we get along, but we distance and not pursue each other
>I don't like he/she that much so I don't open myself
>He/she doesn't 'like' me that much, so I end up looking down upon
>>7395019
Relationships with other people are all about power and control,and always has been throughout history, the 'connection' you're looking for was never there and never will be.
>>7395023
>what is non-zero sum
>>7395023
I refuse to belive that it is always about power and control.
Some relations, when they are very horizontal, are more about one part helping the other and coexisting.
Think about it like two hands helping each other to do tasks, one doesn't use power or control to make the other do it's task.
And even if it was like this, I would try to not act in a way that promotes this behaviour towards other people since I find it dehumanizing and way too materialistic.
At least I can decide about how I manage my relations.
>>7394986
I too suffer from this.
Perhaps it is just the way some people are. We bond over common interest with others, if there is none the only interaction that we will have is superficial platitudes. Do you share the same interest as the people you want to socialize with? If not look for some that you do. But I know this can be hard if you don't like the same things as most people do.
>>7395023
Read Montaigne's account of the dinner party at which he first met his soon-to-be-best friend, La Boétie, and you'll see that this statement is overgeneralized and false.
And read slowly his reaction to the untimely death of La Boétie:
"for truly, if I compare all the rest of my forepassed life, which although I have, by the meere mercy of God, past at rest and ease, and except the losse of so deare a friend, free from all grievous affliction, with an ever-quietnesse of minde, as one that have taken my naturall and originall commodities in good payment, without searching any others: if, as I say, I compare it all unto the foure yeares I so happily enjoyed the deare society of that worthy man, it is nought but a vapour, nought but a darke and yrksome night. Since the time I lost him,
quem semper acerbum,
Semper honoratum (sic Dii voluistis) habebo. Virg. Æn. iii. 49.
Which I shall ever hold a bitter day,
Yet ever honour'd (so my God t'obey).
I doe but languish, I doe but sorrow: and even those pleasures, all things present me with, in stead of yeelding me comfort, doe but redouble the griefe of his losse. We were copartners in all things. All things were with us at halfe; me thinkes I have stolne his part from him.
---- Nec fas esse ulla me voluptate hic frui
Decrevi, tantisper dum ille abest meus particeps. -- Ter. Heau. act. 1. sc. i, 97.
I have set downe, no joy enjoy I may.
As long as he my partner is away.
I was so accustomed to be ever two, and so enured to be never single, that me thinks I am but halfe my selfe."
>>7395016
>>7395017
Never implied you're either a party animal or a tortured genius/patrician/whatever, I too like to party and have a range of different hobbies etc etc etc, I just said that the public sphere has degraded quite a lot in the XXI century and that nowadays even a road trip with your friends is bound to lack profound social interaction.
I live in a Latin American country and have tons of friends but I still feel like deep friendship is almost extinct and most social gatherings rapidly turn into meme spewing, endless, almost pre-scripted chit chat and the closets thing one gets to intricate dialogue is gossip, which I believe its the only topic that hasn't been corroded and robbed of its ·essence" by the endless stream of information we`re bombarded with daily and people still partake in with enthusiasm and a more "organic" attitude, also I think due to social media gossip has been strengthened.
Im not saying people dont socialize or have turned autistic or anything like that, Im just saying that walking 3 miles to see your only friend after winter is over is quite different from meeting with your buddies at a cafe which is different to writing a letter which is different from speaking to your 10 close friends through the phone which is also way different from writing a text message to 100 of your friends and work colleagues.
The means we use to communicate influences the way we communicate which in turn influences society as a whole, Habermas`s degradation of the public sphere is nearing its peak and is being replaced by a faceless sea of endless information (extreme heterophilie) where some of the information could even be generated by computers while at the same time people are turning to very closed, almost kabbalistic groups as means to preserve their privacy and intimate (non public) relationships (extreme homophile).
expect lots of incest in the future...
>>7395073
I've noticed something recently,related to this. it's that It feels seriously uncanny and alien when people are expressive in their body movement and language now.
It's like they're wearing a costume of human flesh and emulating human behaviour.
Do you think people are so dehumanized that ,like me, being expressive is now very alien? Or maybe it's just me being crazy.
>>7395079
>Or maybe it's just me being crazy.
it's you
>>7395073
>I still feel like deep friendship is almost extinct and most social gatherings rapidly turn into meme spewing, endless, almost pre-scripted chit chat
u realize greeks were bitching about this 2500 years ago right
>>7394986
I-I'll be your friend, OP.
>>7395079
I havent really noticed any changes in body language recently though I often run into people that seem to be over expressive, to the point of it all seeming too fake even if its legit
>>7395099
>u realize greeks were bitching about this 2500 years ago right
yup, but they were referring to the younger generations, whereas nowadays it seems as if what some of us might call "autistic smartphone irl communication"is prevalent in a wide age range but only the younger generations, who were raised with a screen in front of the 24/7 are adept at actually communicating effectively that way, whereas we that grew up with a screen in front of us only half the time just come off as idiots/douches when trying to emulate it.
>>7395019
You should make active efforts to be interested in what other people think and express the full extent of your opinions, though obviously you can hold back on emotions because they're a faff. If you act interested then they will be more willing to expose their opinions, then you can talk, then you can become close. I hate to sound like a buddhist but this is how I've made my better friendships, fearless self exposure but in a non-dominant way. Just keep talking.
>>7395105
Honestly, I wish I could have physical interaction with some of /lit/ posters (not on the homo style)
I've had more interesting and fulfilling discussions here than I've had with most people during the last 5 or so years of my life (and this includes discussion on classes).
I know that there are barriers of distance, language and even ideas, but I guess I could have a more in common with people here than I do on my University at the moment
Probably I wouldn't get along with 95% of the people, but the other 5% would be the kind of people I'd like to know and have a drink, smoke or play something.
>>7395023
Go away Foucault. Not everybody is as into sadomasochism as you.
Ikyf anon. If you're still school-age, being at a university really helps with finding good friends. Even then it's all a bit of a coin-toss.
The one piece of advice I can give is to be active about the whole enterprise. There's a lot of people who would likely be your friend if only you gave them a hint that you were interested. Figuring out how to do that without making the other party disinterested is an art, but you have to do it in order to have even a reasonable probability that you'll find people you want to be friends with in this life.
>>7395139
My fear is that I've been an 'asshole' (aka 'I say inapropiate things in social enviroments') during highschool and this reflects to the fact that I have so little relations.
I'm trying to act like a 'nice guy' on College (4th semester currently), but people seem more arrogant, superficial and rude to me than before. Sure, there's less of a 'direct' approach than on highschool by people, but more passive-aggressive talk going on (which I hate). When I try to be direct and do things like: 'I don't like how you treat that guy because of X, Y and Z' (this is something that happened actually, since 3 guys where picking on the nerd guy of the group) everyone acts offended and say that I'm not like that.
I've had a guy say to me 'Stop joking about me or I'm going to say something you don't want to hear' yet I was acting like I've done before. Now he behaves like if we are friends and nothing happened.
I seriously don't like my group of friends, but it seems better than nothing.
>>7395184
>I seriously don't like my group of friends, but it seems better than nothing.
They're not really friends then, are they?
more like acquaintances that you hang around because there's no one better?
You seem like a cool guy though, maybe you should try to be friends with people who have common interests or something?
for example I recently started going to the gym and some guys I know saw me there and it turns out they all go to lift there. Now we have a common interest in which to bond over and discuss.
What kind of hobbies do you have?
>>7395196
Well, nothing too 'cool' actually
I like to read, I would like to exercise but I'm too skinny and selfconcious so I do it from my house, I sometimes watch anime and some football from time to time, think of the average 4chan poster.
It's not about hobbies as I see it, but I get your point. I've started to play ping-pong and drink with my acquaintances on uni, so I've met with a few new people and they know my name (at least).
But on the other hand it will be hard to create a relationship out of this since they have an image of myself that is not easy to change.
I'll try to come back to a friend I used to have, but we don't relate that much nowadays since he studies on another part of the city. I actually just messaged him.
>>7395212
Are the people at your Uni the same as your High School?
>>7395212
>I would like to exercise but I'm too skinny and selfconcious
I'm fat and I'm pretty sure there's fuccbois that make fun of me in the gym but I don't really care, it's just the caveman part of your brain that equates possible social ostracization with death.
Since first impressions matter, then maybe getting buff could be a possibility? If people see a guy with muscles they know he takes care of himself and is fairly disciplined, appearance is also a big factor is social relations.
>>7395184
Bugger those people, find new ones. If you persist in straight talking they'll probably bend around you anyway, so you'll be fine.
Definitely can't tell I've been reading too much classics, the metaphors are going to start breaking out soon.
>>7394986
Try Hesse's "Beneath The Wheel"
>>7395009
>In summary: friendship up until the Renaissance was incredibly intense and often described in a vocabulary that sounds to us almost like falling in love or finding your other half.
Not that it proves much, but Shakespeare shows this at spots too. Hamlet himself uses "love" a lot when referencing his friends.
>tfw lost my best friend two weeks ago
no one texts me any more
>>7395224
good advice but, what do you mean with the second line?
Is there any good writing out there about the friendship between Lord Byron and Percy Bysshe Shelley and that lot? Always seemed pretty interesting.
>>7395260
That's a good example. And explains why he feels so totally betrayed when Rosencrantz and Guildenstern show themselves to be in the pocket on Claudius. (and as an aside, Benedict Cumberbatch does an amazing job with this scene in the stage version in London -- his sense of betrayal is so intense). Also, look at Aristotle on this stuff. He provides the model of true friendship as being one soul with two bodies. Our modern sensibilities struggle to comprehend this idea, but it's really extraordinary seeing what Cicero and Montaigne do with it. Then something happens in the late 17th C. -- roughly coincident with the Enlightenment. There's something that falls away in our sense of intimacy. This is why it's so important to read earlier literary works and understand other possible ways of living. Look in the Iliad and Achilles' tears in reaction to the death of his friend Patrocles, and then the rage that returns as he takes vengeance. I can't think of an example in the last hundred years as intense as this. But still, we all have so many friend and followers and likes and social media, as though we're all so popular. It's such a terrible delusion.
>>7394986
Well, you could read the original buddy story, The Epic of Gilgamesh. I personally enjoyed the Mitchell "translation," and I don't know of any others that are widely available.
>tfw never have another living person be of the same soul as you
>tfw never go on cool adventures to the Cedar Forest with your best pal
Why even live?
>>7395275
Look up Edward Trelawney and thank me later.
>>7395275
Read Shelley on Keats in Adonaïs. It's a bit heartbreaking. Also, in brief there's Keats's tomb with his own epitaph and additions from friends:
"This Grave contains all that was mortal, of a Young English Poet, who on his Death Bed, in the Bitterness of his heart, at the Malicious Power of his enemies, desired these words to be Engraven on his Tomb Stone:
Here lies One Whose Name was writ in Water."
The last line is Keats's own writing.
For more, watch this superbly made Peter Ackroyd documentary too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mefXs5h9o
>>7395269
Certain greek authors (I think I am thinking of Hesiod) have an obsession with the metaphor of straight and bent talking, and how the latter is the source of all the angst of the world. Other ones often have recourse to lengthy metaphor in their arguments.
>>7395275
Also, slightly apocryphal and surrounded by legend, is Byron's beachside funeral/immolation for Shelley, in which Shelley's heart wouldn't burn. And Shelley drowned while sailing in a boat named after Byron's poem Don Juan. And of course Frankenstein is the product of this extraordinary friendship group too. Keats is still my favorite of the bunch:
Darkling I listen; and, for many a time
I have been half in love with easeful Death,
Call’d him soft names in many a mused rhyme,
To take into the air my quiet breath;
Now more than ever seems it rich to die,
To cease upon the midnight with no pain,
While thou art pouring forth thy soul abroad
In such an ecstasy!
Still wouldst thou sing, and I have ears in vain
To thy high requiem become a sod.
Nicomachean Ethics
Bump, this is quite an interés ring thread
>>7395275
It's covered quite a bit in Shelley: The Pursuit by Robert Holmes, which is just about the greatest literary biography ever written.
>>7395009
Thanks for the recommendations.
Bumping this thread, this is really fascinating to me.
If anyone has more reading recommendations about this:
>In summary: friendship up until the Renaissance was incredibly intense and often described in a vocabulary that sounds to us almost like falling in love or finding your other half.
I'd be really grateful if you could post them.
>>7397328
BBC radio 4 did a series on the history of friendship, you might enjoy that. You can bake bread whilst you listen to it and use the bread to befriend ducks and the homeless.
>>7394986
Create something. In yourself or out of yourself. Either way, the principle does not change.
