What do you actually think of trans girls.
The trans girls I mean are the ones that started hormones before 20ish, actually pass, arnt cringy, etc.
Do you view them as real girls? Same respect?
same goes with cos guys.
Do you view ftms who pass 100% as real men? Same respect? Wouldn't act different and treat them different? (if you knew about there history).
Cis girls thoughts and trans girls / cis men's thoughts on trans guys. Go.
I'd fuck a man, a twink, a crossdresser, a tranny or a real woman, but never EVER a FRANKENDICK cuntboy. I'd still treat them as a fellow man though.
>>6137066
>like... some people are ok with it some people arent cause people have diff opinions?
yes and i am asking what yours is
>>6137051
Only ever knew one transman
I consider him a man and treat him as a man and never even though of him as a women but holy FUCK he did not pass. He still hasn't been able to get a hold of hormones. I feel bad for the guy. Also he was a negative edgy fuckwit but that had nothing to do with being trans
>>6137105
Its probably a lot to do with being trans actually. It's a stooge show. Boys (not men) are expected to reflect that type of juvenile behavior. In a ditch effort to preserve boyhood and refuse manhood many trans kids never grow out of a seemingly autistic, neurotic, despondent state or anxiety. This is especially true with avoidant archetypes, who hide behind screens living in their own or collective others fictions. It's why mtfg threads are cancer and lesgen is peaceful.
>>6137111
But he's a twin and his cis sister is equally as neurotic. It's probably just a fucked up family desu. I wouldn't be suprised if their father raped them
>>6137111
So then why is femgen even more paranoid and crazy?
>>6137040
The only type of dick I would potentially enjoy sucking desu.
I like trans girls, even pre-hormone trans girls. Might be because I'm younger so most of the ones I know are just tall nerdy averagely-cute chicks.
>>6137132
Idk I haven't compared because I don't like their vibe. I don't really any vibe here anymore. I'm too old. I'm just an old b tard who never figured out until I was a man that I needed to be a woman lmao
I was in such denial that I beleived denial was not real.
>>6137040
>The trans girls I mean are the ones that started hormones before 20ish, actually pass, arnt cringy, etc.
I feel like those girls are really rare. I'd date a transgirl who
>isn't depressed
>isn't a weird fetishist
>is stable
>not obsessed with trans politics
>doesn't cam, prostitute, escort
>passes
>got SRS
>voice is 100% cis girl passing
I might as well ask for a million dollars. So I'll just stick to cis girls.
pic related, I would date her, but she probably keeps her dick and is straight. Two deal breakers for me.
No. They aren't real women and are generally awful to be around. Most of them act like men.
>>6137111
>Boys (not men) are expected to reflect that type of juvenile behavior. In a ditch effort to preserve boyhood and refuse manhood many trans kids never grow out of a seemingly autistic, neurotic, despondent state or anxiety. This is especially true with avoidant archetypes, who hide behind screens living in their own or collective others fictions. It's why mtfg threads are cancer and lesgen is peaceful.
Are you talking about MtFs or FtMs?
they're pretty cool, I consider them "real girls" passing or not. too bad most of them are fucked in the head
only problem is we can't talk about shit like periods and contraception
would date one, pre or post op, don't care
only thing that pisses me off is when they allow trans guys into "female only" spaces
it's like- hey, we don't consider you a real guy so you're welcome
and I feel like if they are male they should just gtfo female spaces
>>6137226
Dun see the harm in femboys trying to act like alpha males when they're that girly and insisting they're still guys. Endearing
>>6137051
the only ftms i've seen look like 2klb dykes and are the extremely cringey types that want to "invite you over for the game" or to "toss the pigskin with the BOYS". hopefully they turn out fine in the future. i'm waiting.
>>6137364
ah that's common early on. maybe after they transition/ get further along in their transitions. just like how ALL trans guys wore those stupid trucker caps for like 3 years
>>6137335
>only thing that pisses me off is when they allow trans guys into "female only" spaces
yeah that shit is weird
>>6137213
>doesn't cam, prostitute, escort
>posts a timeline of a girl who probably did all 3
>>6137335
I feel you to some degree senpai, but what happens in a lot of those cases is that the trans guy is around while he's still a woman and he gets so much support and friendship from everyone that he still wants to be around them afterwards. Usually groups are pretty casual about that sort of thing.
Sort of related: I'm a transwoman, but when I transitioned the only LGBT space within like 50 miles was geared only toward gay male youth, and I was desperate. I went anyway, even though I wouldn't be a guy for much longer. As a group they were (and continue to be) the most accepting, most protective people that I've ever known. Now I'm fully transitioned and attracted to girls, so I have absolutely no reason to be there, but I still go regularly and volunteer because I have a lot of incredibly good friends that helped me survive and become who I am. I see that happen in reverse with a lot of trans men in women spaces.
The people who only accept trans guys because they see them as women are disgusting, though.
>tfw started HRT @ 17
>pass effortlessly
>voice on point
>don't think of myself as "real girl"
>think all cis girls view me as a joke
im 23 now, HRT 6 years, haven't been clocked as trans in 4 years. and i still feel fake, and ugly. o well.
>>6137111
>Lesgen
>Peaceful
Half of the thread is the "I'll have to see a timestamp with that vagoo" meme, and "that's something a straight man would say, sir". You guys are resentful as fuck. Mtfg is high school drama. Lesgen is a burnout.
>>6137576
humans tend to have multiple problems at the same time, a lot of cis people feel just like you because they have other issues.
>>6137040
As a guy I don't like the tryhard ftms who go all out with bodybuilding, tattoos, buzzcuts, gangster clothing, always scowling, etc. I bet cis women feel similarly about overly cutesy mtfs. I can respect ftms who just want male exteriors of themselves. But lol at ftms who wear mpb / acne / bodyhair as badges of honor. No one wants any of those things.
The most important part of being a man is being honest with others and staying true to your aspirations. Real men don't try to be manly, they do as they please and fuck if anyone tries to stop them.
>>6137596
>staying true to your aspirations
what if there aspirations are
>bodybuilding, tattoos, buzzcuts, gangster clothing
XD
trans guys can be asshats just like cis douchebags
>>6137335
>can't talk about shit like periods and contraception
most of us outside 4chan are not trigger-easy, the girls like me who have been transitioning for like 4 years + know what is up and have the same emotional state as any other cis chick.
that being said this site is mainly early trannies new to it, so they are just trigger-easy noobs
Cis female.
If you want to be recognized as a woman and put forth the effort to be seen that way then I will call you a woman because I don't particularly give a shit. What do I REALLY think? I'm trying to sum up my opinion but I'm coming up blank. Basically, I will call you whatever you want. I see you as a person who is either weird, normal, or cool for your personality. I will be annoyed, accepting, or in agreement depending on your beliefs. I don't care about trans women in general. If i met one how I felt about her would just be from who she is, not what she is. I. Dont. Give. A. Fuck.
>>6137735
pretty much.
cis bi scum female here,
I don't judge people based off of what you identify as, but ill sure as hell judge you if you are a shitty human
>>6137564
How old when you switched? I'm 24 and scared I grew too much in this awful thing :( I figured out my problem too late because I only liked women! Fuck you society for telling me I was a guy!!)
>>6137111
>It's why mtfg threads are cancer and lesgen is peaceful.
Hahaha, jesus christ, do you actually believe that? I mean, I'm a trans lesbian and I avoid the mtfgens because they're awful, but lesgen is 500x worse. EVERY SINGLE TIME i see the lesgen on the front page there's at least one post in the 5 most recent bickering about the tranny boogeyman. It feels like fucking puritan Salem in there, but with trans people instead of witches; it's all they can ever talk about. I'm good, bro.
>>6137774
You sound like someone with autism and not a dysphoria suffering person. Your self hatred is really showing.
(cis les)
>>6137772
I've been there, especially with being confused since I liked women, and being afraid of starting too late. I started putting the pieces into motion when I was 22, and I started HRT on my 23rd birthday. I felt like I had an awful starting point. That said, I'm 24 and 14 months HRT now, but I pass without effort; I don't even remember the last time I was misgendered, and I barely ever wear makeup. That's not everyone's experience obviously, but age isn't everything.
>>6137774
Tranny is an insult we use for each other. It gives you the edge in pissing another girl off. Don't like her favorite clothing style? Call her a tranny! Think her taste in women is shit? Call that girl a TRANNNY. Are her interests disgusting? T-r-a-n-n-y.
>>6137806
kek
>>6137793
I look like a chick now dressing the part waiting to get some help with HRT got more questions than answers though it's all clicking. I look back at my emo cutter diary thing and I just am empty and angry at society and family for shaming me down.
I think I'll be okay, but it's going to be a scar on my leg just like in my soul for awhile.
What's having a cock like in the dating scene? Is it still working and all?
I hope I'm too far into puberty, thankfully like I said I look like 19.
>>6137786
What's a "dysphoria suffering person" sound like, o arbiter of all that is trans? You're right that I have barely any dysphoria, but that's because I'm mostly post-transition and pass well. Also, I love myself pretty intensely. Try again!
>>6137806
I mean, I can appreciate that, but it's not always that, at least from an outsiders POV. There's often some shitpost from someone who's pretending to be a TERF, then everyone dumb enough to not have the filters jumps on them. Awful lot of trans discussion for people so desperate to get away from it.
The filtered discussion seems great, but its like there's always two conversations going on at the same time, the people with filters who actually make an effort to get away from the trans discussion, and the unwashed masses who won't shut up about it.
As a passable tranny I'm nearly never rejected after i meet the girl.
Tonight tho i was hooking up with a really flat girl and i could tell she felt inadequate when she saw mine.
>>6137051
>cos guys
what is cos? can someone fill me in pls?
>>6137051
wont ever see them as real men but i'll treat them like i would one and give them the respect i give any other human being
same with mtf's
>>6137213
>voice is 100% cis girl passing
That last one is such a clincher for me. My voice is fairly passable at best and i topped every other part of the list. The stupid thing dropped when i was like 13.
Has anyone listened to post yeson voice surgery clips? Would those count as 100% cis passable female? I want to believe i have a chance if i drop about 8k on it.
>>6137853
where do you meet them?
>>6137213
>keeps her dick
Idk, I know it's often repeated by trannies that you can't tell the difference in neovags and real but I've yet to see a pic of one that didn't look really wierd. Maybe they exist but yeah idk. I think I'd rather just put up with a penis than plastic surgery disaster, but then I guess MtF wouldn't know until it was chopped off and then it's too late. But I guess it looking good isn't really the point for them but damn they are kinda ugly, even the "pretty ones" are ugly
>>6137051
I don't really care, I treated him like a guy I guess. To me he's just one if the guys who I shoot the shit with and I don't really pay too much attention to it I guess.
>>6137820
I'm glad that you see a light at the end of the tunnel. If you're able to make it work without HRT, you're going to have zero problems once you've been on it for a good amount of time.
Having a dick hasn't been a problem with any of the girls I've come across. Straight mtfs have it a lot harder. Like >>6137853 said, as long as you pass and you're attractive, it's rarely going to be a problem with girls.
That said, I have extreme genital dysphoria to the point that if someone sees it or touches it I start having problems, but that's more of a "me" problem than a "dating scene" problem. I haven't lost any function, minus the semen part.
>>6137877
I understand the want to have a female sounds voice but those surgeries have like a 30 percent fail rate.
Those failed surgeries either lose their voice or permanently sound like mickey mouse. I would very seriously research and think thru before doing a surgery like that.
Good luck, voice training really helps especially after a couple of years so there is hope in that.
>>6138192
>I understand the want to have a female sounds voice but those surgeries have like a 30 percent fail rate.
Nah that's not true, the shitty voice surgeries in America are like that but Yeson is far less error prone and invasive.
>>6138245
13% get a worse voice, and like 15% don't get any satisfiable results.
If you cough or sneeze once during the 2 week recovery period, your voice will be fucked.
>MFW no cis girls responded in this thread
>>6138656
o wel
>>6137040
The ones I have seen on here that start before 20ish or arounds there are some of the most cringest examples. So I don' know if I can answer your question correctly. There are a couple that started later and quickly get their shit together which I view as real women. I think the only young ones we see here are the ones that are too god awful to get into those youth clinics.
I used to be a huge SJW and I would defend ftms and mtfs and everyone inbetween. My thought and the popular thought that was put out on articles all the time about transwomen was that they began as boys who "always knew they were women" and then transitioned young and were pretty much the trutrans narrative. To me they seemed innocent and in need of protection.
But ever since coming to 4chan and getting addicted to it, the trutrans narrative fell apart and so did my sympathy for mtfs and ftms. What mtfs put down in their posts, they come off as selfish, hypersexual, and just plain damn weird. Their thoughts, wants come off as so alien, mtfs sound more like tryhard dudes than actual girls.
I'm sorry, just can't see mtfs the way I used to.
>>6140461
>real life is dirtier than a clean narrative made to appeal the masses
wet water and other stuff. cis people have personality problems, trans people do too.
>>6140461
That's some unfair bias to expect that the world is accepting of trans youth or always has been. It's even more unfair to think they get medical treatment young because this is still being fought over in many countries. It must not be easy to grow up as trans and I bet they all wish they could have started innocent and young.
The rest of your post I agree with. Selflish, hypersexual, aggressive trolls that chant Trump and other /pol/ memes isn't something that needs respect.
>>6140487
>Selflish, hypersexual, aggressive trolls that chant Trump and other /pol/ memes isn't something that needs respect.
w-why are you judging people irl for what anons do? when did 4chan become a litmus test for likeable people?
>>6140508
If it is on 4chan or Facebook it doesn't matter. But I can see that reasonable transgenders are few and far between when they get to say what they really think.
>>6137624
I don't think she meant triggering a tranny with the contraception and period talk. I'm pretty sure she means they just don't know what that's like so, they don't have that commonality to bond over and discuss personally.
>>6137820
My reaction to reading your post:
>"You're 24 and you were emo?"
>"How long did that fucking fad last to still be around when I was a kid?"
>Realized you're only 3 years older than I am
>Felt old as shit
>>6137870
Look at your keyboard and notice the placement of the o key.
>>6137596
being a man != being an asshole
But I mean, if you are MTF, there are plenty of similar parallels of what people think women are like.
>>6137040
>Do you view them as real girls? Same respect?
I guess? I mean, I wouldn't call anyone a real girl, you're either a girl or you're not, I usually group them with cis women mentally
I do put them in a different category than "standard girls", but more like you would see someone who's infertile or gay or something
>The trans girls I mean are the ones that started hormones before 20ish, actually pass, arnt cringy, etc.
I don't really care if you pass properly or are cringy either, I don't really care if there fetishistic either, you need to really push the line there, like the legendary "masc guy with a beard claiming he's female" tier
It doesn't even need to quack like a duck for me, more like, be kinda similar to a duck to register as a duck in my head
I'm kinda bad at recognizing genders and default everyone ambigous to female desu so it's really easy to pass in my eyes
Like I never clocked the sopor aeterna chick, I always thought it's a really butch woman and just assumed she be on T or with pcos when I heard she's NB, like "oh it makes sense her voice is so low", I didn't know the singer gender when I first heard it either, just the band name, now I have no clue why the hell I thought it's a female voice at the time because it seems so obvious after I know
>>6140563
Trans means you are the worst of men and the worst of women. It's a special type of acquired taste, you hear a lot of people talk about hate sex.
>>6137576
>>tfw started HRT @ 17
18 for me
>pass effortlessly
95% of the time, even with short hair
>voice on point
voice is probably only reason I pass ;.;
>don't think of myself as "real girl"
same
>think all cis girls view me as a joke
same
>im 23 now, HRT 6 years, haven't been clocked as trans in 4 years. and i still feel fake, and ugly. o well.
same. lets form a s̶u̶i̶c̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶p̶a̶c̶t̶ I mean support group
>>6140650
dayum, this guy got it exactly right. Beautiful choice of words m8
>>6137111
>lesgen is peaceful.
Lesgen is a cesspit and I hate 95% of the cunts in it, but I can't help coming back because I know no irl lesbians I like anymore than them.
>>6137213
Those trans girls pretty much don't exist. I dating another trans girl for a while and I couldn't deal with the mental instability. And every other trans girl I've met has awful depression and dysphoria. And they're really fetishy (no, rainbow thigh highs aren't cute on you). And cringy. And have terrible voices that sound like gay men.
I'm going to sound really narcissistic right now, but I can't stand being associated with unpassable trans girls. As soon as I get SRS, I'm blending into normal society and not looking back.
>>6137906
I mean, most pictures you end up seeing online are either really soon after surgery or especially interesting (that is, weird looking). a lot of people don't tend to post their genitals online to be spread around to potentially thousands of people. but im not a transwoman and haven't seen a neovagina irl so i dont know for sure either.
>>6140886
You're probably on top of that hon pile. I know some hons from the threads here that look good but they have the personality of stunted blokes. It doesn't help they're craving to suck other MtF cock either.
>>6140666
ok deal
>>6137091
Screaming 'LOL FRANKENDICK" isn't really treating someone very well.
Also if the FtM has a 'frankendick' how are they still a cuntboy?
genuinely confused.
>>6137105
>>6137111
I am a FtM myself but I have noticed a few other trans people have a weird Peter Pan 'robbed of my childhood!!!" mentality that I sympathize with but find cringey.
An ex-friend of mine who is another trans dude pretty much spends all of his money buying points on DeviantArt so he can adopt garish sparkledogs and shiny objecthead Tumblr art stylechibis like a fucking 15 year old. Or failing that, he buys weed.
And then whinges about not having any money for 'mones and shit.
I wish I felt worse for him but he's kind of a dumbass and really should grow up.
>>6141665
>An ex-friend of mine who is another trans dude pretty much spends all of his money buying points on DeviantArt so he can adopt garish sparkledogs and shiny objecthead Tumblr art stylechibis like a fucking 15 year old.
I thought even 15yos weren't immature enough to do this retarded shit.
>>6137040
"Cis" female. On the one hand if they get srs and are on hrt I feel like they're trying their best and if they don't pass, that's okay. They can't do everything, and the last time there was some attempt to implant a uterus in a MTF, the patient died. On the other hand, I don't think they're really women at all, and I don't want their crimes (like the ones who rape women or kids or kill women) to be counted as female crimes. I'm not responsible for MTFs being immoral fuck-ups. And a lot of them are creepy, rapey freaks and absolute messes, like if you're actually women you are massive disappointments. The whole "gender identity" argument is patently absurd when you notice how many people want to keep their genitals. I'm skeptical of the whole thing, honestly.
>>6141682
He's a hugbox Tumblrqueer though so there is really no shock that he behaves in this way.
He used to also bitch and moan when someone in our group of trans friends got surgery because he always had some reason why he 'deserved' it more.
I mean, there are times when I don't want to talk about surgery myself because I don't have access to it so I don't want to hear about it but I have never gone out of my way to guilt-trip someone for getting transistion care.
>>6137040
MTF here, just
Holy shit, how much of a fucking insecure tranny can you be?
>>6142067
We are all insecure trannies here.
>>6141754
You should remember that the surgery costs $20000 more than most of them have to spend. Counted as a man or woman is an arbitrary concept there is enough research that says they have female patterned neurology.
There's also enough research to say there isn't a huge difference between man and woman minds. Females are equally capable of perpetrating violent crimes and domestic abuse.
Freaks are freaks and abusers are abusers. You don't need to count them as anything else because that is unfair on all the rest of the human race.
>>6142067
You don't need to keep up that tough act anon. We know that you're hurt everyone secretly thinks you will rape kids in the bathroom. That's why it's common sense to keep you out.
>>6141754
Uh, not even mtf, but they don't commit crimes and they aren't violent. The battered women's orgs have a lot of evidence to that extent :http://endsexualviolence.org/files/NTFNationalConsensusStmtTransAccessWithSignatories.pdf
Honestly though, what are you doing trusting the gays=pedophiles far right for facts?
>>6142089
>hurrrrr
I've never had issues in a bathroom.
I've never had issues with cis friends.
Shit, I've been in a women's shelter and nobody ever gave me trouble and half the women there could have beaten me up solo.
>>6142120
Not MtF violence but there is a trend of lesbian violence that has been reported more and more lately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_lesbian_relationships
>>6142170
>trend of lesbian violence
Okay well that's a little bit sad but what does one letter being violent have to do with another?
>>6142207
It's MtF vs cis lesbian discussion so it's relevant.
I am friends with a trans man and am gay but I am a bottom so no clue how to make that work, as I wouldnt be into a strap on
>>6142235
Lesbians would knock MtFs lights out.
>>6142341
Lesbian vagina monster calling in. No I wouldn't.
>>6142067
hi this is OP.
>much of a fucking insecure tranny can you be?
Insecure? Probably. Bored? Yes.
>>6140809
Lesgen is literally "what if some lesbians were robots"
>>6142646
Most of them are overweight and have social problems.
>>6142082
>female patterned neurology
No one gets a brain scan to access transition. They are still men who choose to look vaguely like women, why should their crimes be counted as ours? It's wrong, period. Many of them don't even want pussies, so what does their "female neurology" even matter? It doesn't make them biologically female in any other way, and that's IF it exists in all MTF people, which there is no proof of.
>because that is unfair on all the rest of the human race
Explain your reasoning, please. It might be unfair to MTFs because they think they can just declare themselves as women and people should accept that, but no, it's not unfair to everyone else.
>>6142120
>they don't commit crimes
lmao, come on. Paula Witherspoon, Donna Perry, Synthia China Blast, Alison Woolbert, etc etc. All criminals. "MTFs don't commit crimes" lol.
>>6142235
>implying I'm gay
>>6142207
A couple of MTFs and men here hate lesbians and regularly post those stats rather than admit there are terrible people in their community. It's a regular thing. They're just messy misogynist, lesbophobic h8rs.
>>6143700
If you're worried about a statistically negligent violent criminal portion of a statistically criminal portion of a statistically negligent trans female portion of a statistically negligent transgender portion of an already small minority of LGBT people affecting a massive demographic like "all women" then you're either paranoid or ignorant. Or both.
>It doesn't make them biologically female in any other way
>in any other way
This is called moving the goalposts and drawing arbitrary lines in the sand to justify your personal bias. Sure it's your opinion, but it's by no means objective nor worthy of respect on its own merit compared to people who actually deal with gender dysphoria firsthand or study it for a living in a professional medical environment.
The criteria for "real woman" gets smaller and smaller and smaller the more you compartmentalize your blanket rejection of trans women away from the subjective reality of the human experience.
Feminism has fought for women to have historically unprecedented upwards, downwards, and lateral movement through social, economic and political strata in the past few decades. However trans women are still confined to the misogynistic judgement of "female-ness" based on an intangible and pigeonholed ideal of "woman" and "her role in society" according to the physical capabilities of her presumed genotype.
Basically, you're chipping away at your own ideological foundation here and the more people tell you so, the harder and more spitefully you're going to swing that proverbial pickaxe.
There are more healthy ways to feel powerful and in-control, anon.
>>6143700
Literally who gives a shit.
Are people gonna think all women are rapist if the rape statistics go up?
Even if they do go up they literally make up such a small percent of the population you are worrying about an iota.
I don't understand why your panties are in a bunch
>>6137213
Poop.
I don't >got SRS
Not gonna have a serious relationship until I'm 25 I guess R>I>P
Well this was one depressive as fuck thread, with a quick glance not a single person who replied to OP would actually consider me a girl, nor the OP.
>>6144855
There were some people
I am a depressed/cyclothymic, deeply insecure trans girl and I've dated cis women several times. I never held on to any though
I really need to stop visiting this fucking board and work on myself, the mental illness shaming here is horrible
>>6137111
>It's why mtfg threads are cancer and lesgen is peaceful.
>being this delusional
Lesgen is literally female /r9k/. Basically anywhere lesbians congregate on the net to be cunts. Mtfgen is small time drama at best. Lesgen is full on crazy.
see also: l chat / lolcow
>>6142717
>Most of them are overweight and have social problems.
Autism or antisocial personality might explain /lg/ pretty well
>>6145071
The MtF thread is without a doubt the worst one on the board. It has the worst people, the worst asinine trips, the worst drama, there just isn't anything good about it. It's so bad that more than half their regulars just stopped posting end of last year. It's a thread dedicated to hurting people so hons can sit on top of the shit pile and hugbox their cliques.
>>6145079
Severe depression fits better. Only a few of them are really autistic and you can tell because their blindness for subtleties is jarring.
>>6144332
>This is called moving the goalposts
Is it? Brain sex, if it exists, has mainly been a historically misogynist concept, not a criteria for being female. If "being female" included "brain sex," that would be moving goalposts. Being female has to do with reproductive sex - brain sex doesn't have shit to do with reproductive sex.
>The criteria for "real woman" gets smaller and smaller and smaller the more you compartmentalize your blanket rejection of trans women away from the subjective reality of the human experience.
Not really, that's just your reactionary opinion.
>However trans women are still confined to the misogynistic judgement of "female-ness" based on an intangible and pigeonholed ideal of "woman" and "her role in society" according to the physical capabilities of her presumed genotype.
How horrid, having to be female to be considered female. Next you'll tell me of the terrible plight of straight women who want to call themselves lesbians. Or James Franco, who thinks he's a gay man but is attracted to women. TRAGIC!
>Basically, you're chipping away at your own ideological foundation here and the more people tell you so, the harder and more spitefully you're going to swing that proverbial pickaxe.
TERFism IS the ideological foundation of feminism. And I'm not even a feminist.
>There are more healthy ways to feel powerful and in-control, anon.
This is about keeping women's politics, spaces, and words actually about women, and not about men who don't even want pussies. If women don't have power and control in their own places, then feminism is just another misogynist lie that fucks women over.
Please stop being so damn wordy, btw.
>>6144773
I think you've got your panties in a bunch, not me. And like I said, I don't want women blamed when it's MEN, AGAIN, raping women and girls. Nearly all of those MTFs either victimized women and girls or were accomplices to men who victimized women and girls.
>>6143700
It is unfair if you lump people in with a group of criminals because of arbitrary physical similarities. An MtF doesn't need to be born with female biology to be counted as a woman in our society. The same goes for intersex and ambiguous genitalia, it also counts for women that are unable to reproduce. Biological sex is defined by the size of gametes. If you don't produce gametes then you are biologically sexless.
>>6145162
>Is it? Brain sex, if it exists, has mainly been a historically misogynist concept, not a criteria for being female. If "being female" included "brain sex," that would be moving goalposts. Being female has to do with reproductive sex - brain sex doesn't have shit to do with reproductive sex.
Brain sex does influence sexual attraction and impulse to reproduce. But like it has been said in all these discussions penis and vagina are irrelevant, chromosomes are irrelevant, brains are irrelevant, society is irrelevant. Biology judges you by the size of the gametes you produce. If you don't produce gametes then you are an asexual specimen.
>>6145162
>I think you've got your panties in a bunch, not me. And like I said, I don't want women blamed when it's MEN, AGAIN, raping women and girls. Nearly all of those MTFs either victimized women and girls or were accomplices to men who victimized women and girls.
Women rape women too. Since there are more women doing it than MtF women you don't make a lot of sense why it needs to be treated any different.
As a gay cis man, I don't consider trans men "real men" from a sexual standpoint. But I'm not going to stop you from using the men's room and I'm cool with calling you "he".
>>6145162
Women as a whole shouldn't and aren't blamed for an individual's actions
Same with men, if you don't count third wave feminists
>>6145249
Do you consider dwarf midgets as "real men" from a sexual standpoint?
Do you consider grotesquely disfigured invalids as "real men" from a sexual standpoint?
Do you consider men with a micro penis as "real men" from a sexual standpoint?
>>6145262
Yes, because they were born as biological men. Disfigurement, height, age, mental/physical illness, race or the size of your penis don't matter to me, and I could see myself being in a relationship with people from any of the aforementioned categories. But if I'm going down on a guy, I want there to be a real cock there.
Any particular reason that comment offended you? My sexual interests aren't law. Do you feel like you have the right for everyone to find you attractive?
>>6145329
I am not offended I totally get it but I am curious. At what point do you draw that line, and at what point does an FtM cross that line to be considered as "real men" from a sexual standpoint.
For the guy with a micropenis you wont have much to go down on.
> I want there to be a real cock there.
Then what about a man that lost his penis in the war, is he sexually a real man?
>>6145129
>you can tell because their blindness for subtleties is jarring.
Suddenly so many things make sense.
There is no such thing as a transwoman. I am a man.
>>6145388
speak for yourself, bro.
>>6145191
>Brain sex does influence sexual attraction and impulse to reproduce.
Proof please.
>>6145176
> An MtF doesn't need to be born with female biology to be counted as a woman in our society.
I know. And society is wrong.
>>6145201
I don't think they're women period so we're going to disagree here. I don't think there are any statistics that women rape more than MTFs do.
>>6145257
??? Class analysis has been a staple of feminism for a long time, I don't think it's specifically a third wave thing, but I guess it might be. It sure as hell isn't a feminist only concept, either.
>>6145410
>I don't think they're women period so we're going to disagree here. I don't think there are any statistics that women rape more than MTFs do.
Women rape more because there are many times more women and MtF is an extreme minority. Most of which are not sexual offenders in any way. It's very rare but they are disproportionately frequent victims of violence and sexual abuse.
>>6145410
>>Brain sex does influence sexual attraction and impulse to reproduce.
>Proof please.
>>6145410
>>6145448
>>6145410
Irregardless,
The amount of transgender women comparitive to cis is so small that even if the majority of trans women were sexual predators it wouldn't affect the statistics very much at all.
I just don't understand what you are afraid of.
Why would the percentage of women rapist going up 0.5-1%, probably less, effect you at all?
>>6145368
Sure. The stem is still there. I guess his balls would still be there too?
Eh, even if he was missing both, I'd still do him if he was into anal since there's really nothing to "go down" on.
>>6145368
Just the fact that they were a woman at one point is enough to put me off of having sex with a FtM trans person.
Much like real women, I respect them as a person, I think they definitely should have equal rights, and I think they're fully capable of anything that any man is capable of. But I just don't find them sexually attractive.
>>6145474
So for you it is more about the idea that he was once born with a vagina that has you repulsed sexually? Rather than just the physical appearance or function?
>>6145496
Because at the back of your mind the idea lingers they're not really men right. Would you agree that's a pretty unfortunate fate for a man to be born into?
Cis girl here. Because of growing up around a lot of shitty wannabe-Mean Girls, I am not super quick to trust girly-girls. A lot of trans girls are (understandably) into that stuff in a big way, so to me, they're more girly than I am. So, I tend to trust/respect them about as much as I do other girls of that type.
I will also admit that I am a little resentful of trans women who come out after first developing a successful career in a STEM or other male-dominated field. I know that life has its own drawbacks and problems; still feels like hax0ring sometimes.
But then again, I'm a hambeast nerd, so I don't think any trans girls would cry themselves to sleep at night over what I thought.
>>6140461
>they come off as selfish, hypersexual, and just plain damn weird
this so much, im trans and honestly when they post this kind of shit it makes me feel a bit disgusted
"oh my, i have such a craveinf for big dick in my mouth while im wearing my new rainbow thigh highs. please cuddle, pet, hug, and pay attention to me, im so sad ;_;"
just. fucking. stop it. its no wonder so many people think trans people are just a bunch of disgusting fetishists
>>6145721
They chase out the normal ones from their thread. It's a freaky ass subculture that dominates the narrative here but I assume the normal ones don't want to interact with it either.
>>6145752
i gotta agree on that, i went to the mtfg irc but with all of their talk made me feel so alien and disgusted i havent been on there for a while now. i personally dont wanna associate with people who make me see like a freak.
it kinda sucks since id imagine it makes finding a nice partner a fair bit harder
>>6145657
are you me
(also date me ugu)
>>6137040
cis female
ive never been friends with someone that later shocked me with a reveal that theyre a transwoman. so basically, if ive hung out with passing transwomen i never noticed (and therefore treated them the same), otherwise all of them didnt pass (to me). so i guess if they pass (to me), then i treat them as women. but i really have no idea how id feel if someone say, passed to me for months and then came out to me as trans. i just cant imagine it.
or did you mean passing as in, like, objectively passing? cause i did meet a girl once in my local League club who i clocked but all her pals called her a girl and were fawning over her. but they may have known. there was cringey amounts of "ahhh she's such a kickass girl gamer!". i never really got to know her tho cause she was so quiet and kinda shy. she was brutal in game tho. im absolutely convinced that trannies are some of the best gamers out there. probably from being shut-ins with everything to prove. anyway i didnt really register her as a girl. in general, if you dont pass, i sorta see you as not a man, but some other gender. but i also see tomboys and femboys as their own genders too.
>>6146302
>>6145657
>>6137735
>>6141754
>>6137335
op here.
I ask this question because I was stealth in my school, I transitioned @ 16, collage @ 19, i am now half way thru at the age of 21. I pass 100% in every aspect but ever since someone found a super old pic of me a couple months ago, all my girlfriends that i have been friends with since coming to the school have treated my differently, it fuckin sucks and has made my life real shitty. So i just wonder what they are thinking.
i don't go on this site much but thanks for your thoughts
>>6146350
>have treated me differently
>it fuckin sucks
i know youre pretty much done with this thread but if youre still here, im curious -- what are they doing that sucks?
>>6145410
Well o, you see society cant be wrong, or right. Anobjective reality doesnt exist. We are ultimately limited by our own methods of perception, so we will never know anything really, we will only learn agreed upon statements that we observe. These statements can change as we vary the way we look at things.
Welcome to subjectivity my brother/sister :^)
>>6146366
its hard to explain.... they just treat me... not the same.
they are not as open with me anymore would be one of the things, im pretty sure they just view me as a dude now. they way they talk to me changed.
>>6146437
cont.
honestly, im just a regular girl like any other, the onyl diff is that i have a history that haunts me, im ready to move across the world and just go deep stealth. i just wanna be normal and never deal with anyone involved in LGBT again.
>>6146443
>i just wanna be normal
i mean, it sounds like you are? minus the being trans thing. so either acknowledge that you are, and that most people are petty, or acknowledge that you arent and start learning to live with it
i really do empathize. i wanted guys to treat me like a guy all the way through college. i got so used to online where people just assume youre a guy. but it gets better. most people you become friends with wont stay your friends. im sure youll eventually meet people who dont care.
or youre just making a bigger deal about this than you need to be. the fact that your obsessing this much over what your friends think of you is concerning to say the least and indicative youre a bit neurotic. i mean, its not like theyre blackmailing you or being overtly asshole-ish.
>>6146483
I don't think they are being neurotic just because they notice a change in how their friends interact
Just because it isn't overtly aggressive doesn't mean they can't feel bad
>>6146437
>>6146443
But you're not just a normal girl. You're a man as the anons in this thread have stated countless times, there will never be anything that can change that. They might use female pronouns out of respect but you are basically Caitlyn Jenner in rainbow sox posing nude for playboy to them. There might even be those among your friends that resent you for not telling them as they view it like you tricked them. As anons said in this thread they don't really want to count you as female.
The real question is why are you trying to seek the approval of people that obviously don't respect you as a genuine person?
I consider them to be real girls whether they pass or not. For a while i thought i might be trans so idk maybe i have more empathy than some people or something.
The only transgirl i know well in real life though im beginning to suspect is more of a fetishist but is in denial/has persuaded herself that she is trans instead, if that makes sense? Like she recently ordered the classic thigh highs, cat ears kind of shit, and she often makes comments about my body that i find quite uncomfortable, i initially thought it was like jealousy/envy that i have a female body, but im not so sure any more.
She also makes no effort to pass but complains when she gets misgendered, which is odd to me since like you have shortish hair, don't adjust your voice, and dress androgynous at best (womens clothes but they basically just look like fitted menswear),what do you expect? idk
>>6146588
What's wrong with thigh highs or cat ears? I thought they made them for women anyway. I know it is some kind of meme on here but isn't it also common among female especially otakus to prefer it over sexy lingerie?
>>6146350
>>6146437
>>6146443
>>6146544
Honestly OP it might not be a change because they are uncomfortable with you or think of you as a man or anything, it might just be because they are being hyperaware at the moment and dont want to upset/offend you. Is it certain topics that they seem different about? For example, if they are going to say something about their period they might then be like ''hang on, will this be upsetting for OP? maybe i shouldnt say it. or maybe i should because....." etc.
Then it just creates awkward pauses/stilted conversations that make it seem like they are treating you differently, when its not their intention. maybe give it a bit more time, or if you feel strongly enough about it ask them, it might help to talk it out
>>6146609
I'm not really sure how to articulate it that well, but this girl is also really into anime and its like she has this kind of fetishized idea of what a 'girl' is like according to her animus, and so she aims for that? More like an otaku guy drooling over a kawaii nekomimi girl uguuu than an actual 'i am female' thing, if that makes any sense.
Idk, maybe i am being unfair and judging her to a higher standard than i would a cis girl (although i would judge a cis girl for wearing tacky thigh highs and cat ears if they are outside of the bedroom and over like 16 - this girl is 22)
>>6146588
i am sorry brosis but he's just a confused straight man and a creepy one, plain and simple
>>6146663
Perhaps. I offered to have a girls day shopping for clothes and makeup and stuff as she doesnt have many other friends. If thats the case i hope she doesnt take me up on the offer!
>>6146650
there are many sane trans girls that arnt
>otaku guy drooling over a kawaii nekomimi girl uguuu than an actual 'i am female'
just not on this site.. at all.. i can tell theres two types of trans people in the world and 4chan transwomen are different from girls who normal acting, not autismy, etc
>>6146694
Oh yeah i definitely know that not all trans girls are like that! its just she is the one i know best so have a more thorough understanding. I honestly think she maybe has some combination of autism, immaturity, and too much anime thats created this as a form of escapism for her
I know a few trans girls and guys irl who are sane haha
>>6137040
semi related, how do i make cis friends that wont care?
I dont want trans friends
>>6146588
Different anon here. That is encouraging to hear.
My experience so far is that girls don't tend to notice I am trans unless I tell them, and then they get surprised. I'm relatively secure as a trans girl because my stuff has gone so well, I have a boyfriend, and so I don't feel any need to hide where I came from. Not that I just parade it out either, but it gets a bit hard to talk about the past if there are huge chunks of mine I can't even explain otherwise.
I haven't talked to and explained things to a girl and not have her be understanding. I don't have any negative experiences with girls at all actually, it's always guys that get weird about it. I think it stems back to the fact that they can't understand how anyone could ever want to be a girl. They don't get that it isn't a want at all.
I'm trans so not really the answer you're looking for but I see myself and other trannies as men because
1) I don't feel like a real woman and I know ill never fit in so the only way to rationalize my existence is to define all of us as mentally ill men
2) It pleases me to hurt other trannies, especially ones who have it better than I do
3) Thinking of myself and other trannies as men is the only comfortable way I can contextualize my sexual existence and my attraction to other trannies. If we're just effeminate gay men, it isn't gross. Transbians are gross and should rightly be shunned
4) I want desperately to be validated by signaling that I hate trannies as much as society does. I want to be like the jews that sold out to the nazis. I hope that when the fundies and terfs start hunting us down I get a painless death for being a good trans.
t. tranny who hates his existence
>>6146772
>jews sold out to the nazis
You have it backwards. They created and owned the Nazis. Hitler was the one who sold out white civilization.
>>6146772
>I'm trans
no ur not, this is bait, ur the type of people who make us look bad. stop that.
>>6146788
Hitler didn't sell anyone out considering he was Jew himself.
>>6146772
>t. tranny who hates his existence
proving right there u are not actually trans :)
after meeting 100's of trans people they would never misgender themself like that. nice try tho. 10/10
>>6146650
In Japan they say the majority of socially active otaku are women, and the average otaku age is over 40.
I understand what you're saying because it freaks me out too when I see it from certain people. Like if I see Chris-chan wearing some anime thing acting like a freak. But then I remember that I have friends and know other people that do it tastefully and they're over 20 and some over 30. It bothers me how much of this is visual bias and how much I can actually tell if it's purely a fetish. It's like the socks. They wear these socks but real girls wear socks too and there's some subtle difference that I can't pinpoint between them.
>>6146694
You can say that but someone else can say that you're putting on an act to be a female stereotype too.
>>6146827
>proving right there u are not actually trans :)
>after meeting 100's of trans people they would never misgender themself like that. nice try tho. 10/10
What could I do to prove it, apart from showing my obvious manface? I'm being completely serious. Is it that hard to believe that my level of self hate exists?
>>6143700
You were given stats by battered women's groups proving mtfs aren't violent and aren't a threat to women
And those names you dropped are urban legends it seems. The legal records say that these names you dropped with the exception of a single Canadian don't exist and he wasn't trans. Dropping things that don't exist isn't proof. http://www.politifact.com/north-carolina/statements/2016/apr/01/chris-sgro/equality-nc-director-no-public-safety-risks-cities/
>brain scan
Science saying that's what causes their pain doesn't mean that reproductive rights and bodily autonomy need to be restricted. It needs to be liberalized if anything.
It's not just Trans and mtfs that use hormones stuff to look like a female, Femboys do to and I don't see why I have to become collateral damage in this grudge you have.
>>6146855
i figured it out. ur old then, real old. im sorry for your loss
>>6146350
>>6146443
>>6146694
You're trying to prove that you're an exception by saying you're different and distancing yourself from other transgenders. In doing that you actually make yourself stand out more. The things you bring up to qualify why you are a special case don't really give you more support. Your age and looks from an objective standpoint don't matter when you're transgender. They do matter when you are transgender yourself and they use it to gain superiority over each other but not with the public opinion. In doing that you make yourself seem more like a typical /mtfg/ tranny on 4chan and less like a normal girl.
>>6146895
>Your age and looks from an objective standpoint don't matter when you're transgender.
false
>You're trying to prove that you're an exception by saying you're different
no where did i say i am better than anyone, I was just describing two different types of trans ive met after meeting literally 1000's of trans people IRL.
here is where u are wrong
>and distancing yourself from other transgenders
i'm surrounded by trans people, and have trans friends. they just didn't know i was trans until i was outed. and i wasn't even friends with them, all my friends are cis. Just because the only friends I have happen to not be trans doesn't mean made it this way on purpose......
>>6146908
It's just the truth. Your age and looks don't make you more female than Caitlyn Jenner. None of those things make you more legitimate in any of your claims than any of the others. You all do it. You're like politicians, you look a bit different, but you're really all running the same platform.
>>6146873
>The legal records say that these names you dropped with the exception of a single Canadian don't exist and he wasn't trans
Brah, a simple google will find these people.
>
It's not just Trans and mtfs that use hormones stuff to look like a female, Femboys do to and I don't see why I have to become collateral damage in this grudge you have.
So you're the same fucking femboy that always posts in these threads? Get a hobby.
>>6145430
Gimme those statistics.
>>6145448
>>6145456
And...?
>>6146830
Not that anon, but for me i think rather than a subtle difference its more like 'can they pull it off', and a lot of trans people seem to lack that self-awareness, which makes it seem weirder than cis girls. Maybe its because they are doing the early/mid-teens experimental fashion mistakes late or something.
Also cis girls dont tend to wear like stripey or rainbow knee socks (unless theyre like 13) that make them look childish and odd, they are a different type
>>6146949
Uh, phenotype makes sex or different shades of intersex. Of course their secondary traits matter.
>>6146988
The OP is an MtF and not an intersex. By starting at 16 the OP is not an intersex in any way. I bet you would love to make the argument that 16 is before puberty because every MtF says this shit. Any girls here didn't have their first period until they were 17?
>>6146970
And the legal records and police records directly contradict the legends on Google. Heresay proven wrong by the records.
>same fucking femboy
only thing I've said here is that post and I've got a right to weigh in when you talk about this medicine stuff cause it affects me too.
I'm pretty sure I'm doing what your ideology says I should do, but opposing easy access would prevent that, force me to say someone I'm not.
>>6147012
Intersex is a phenotype, they medically aren't wholey male or female. It can be acquired, remember those fishes and polluted water.
>>6146986
I have seen young women in their twenties wear striped socks in the big city but you're right there is a difference. A woman can wear anything she wants as long as she can pull it off. A trans woman gets extra scrutiny when you notice their male features and body that isn't quite made for those clothes.
>>6137051
I can't tell if I'm cis, or just pre-trans. Either way, ftm piss me the fuck off. Even more-so since I tried to come out to my mum and she started seeing one. They're engaged..
>>6147023
>Intersex is a phenotype, they medically aren't wholey male or female. It can be acquired, remember those fishes and polluted water.
>>6146986
I notice most of them just can't match clothes. Their male clothes are just as bad as their female clothes. I take it as evidence of autism because you see it so much in autistic people too.
>>6147034
2bh though theres been an increase (in my city anyway) in cis girls choosing to wear stuff they look absolutely shite in - fat rolls hanging out under crop tops, really unflattering jeans, shaved heads etc, basically tumblrcore ~everyone is beautiful in anything~ shit.
Maybe that becoming normal will make trans people seem less weird since everyone will look odd. There's a lot of trans people in my city and i got used to it, like you kind of clock people but at the same time you sort of instantly disregard it, i guess. Also as long as they are slim-ish, trans girls usually have nicer legs than cis girls imo
>>6147023
actual disorders of sex development aren't merely "phenotypes". they're directly related to the person's genotype, regardless of environment.
gender identity disorder is, as far as we know, a phenotype. maybe there are genetic risk factors, but we haven't found them yet and our current understanding would point towards the environmental factor of prenatal hormonal dysregulation.
the question is over how you define intersex. the medically accepted definition isn't broad enough to cover all physical deviations to the opposite sex (eg brain structure in trans people), disorders of sex development are defined in part by their genetic etiology.
>>6147069
Yeah, can confirm. Get tons of people checking out my legs, and posterior in general.
>trans
>she
>>6147084
>they're directly related to the person's genotype, regardless of environment.
I don't think you know what you're talking about. If that's the case, then all the enviromentally induced deformities such as the DES babies or anything that disrupted DHT woulld magically not exist.
It doesn't have to be genotype/genome, just anything along the lines of the central dogma. Screw up endo and screw up transcript and proteins and you screw up the fetus sex development regardless of if it had a normal genome.
>>6147047
FDA called, they said hi https://www.lhasalimited.org/Public/Library/2014/AOPs%20to%20highlight%20mechanisms%20of%20teratogenicity.pdf
I'm a cis lesbian. Judging by the comments here I think you already know exactly how I feel about transbians.
>>6147088
I'm always jealous when i see trans girls legs, they dont seem to get fat there so much (im slim but i cant shift the weight from my thighs), and dont seem to get cellulite as often either.
>>6147175
You didn't read that powerpoint presentation because if you did you wouldn't have posted it.
>>6147175
I have some sad news for you. A 16 year old biologically male transgender woman is not a fetus although she might act like one at several points in her life.
>>6147256
Please tell me how teratogens messing up baby sex development regardless of genotype prove that it's a genome only thing?
>>6147263
>biologically male
Not really
You keep using biology as an argument but I don't think you know how it works.
>>6147175
i do know what i'm talking about, because disorders that are actually classified as disorders of sex development have clearly defined genetic causes regardless of environment.
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome arises from a defective mutation in the Androgen Receptor gene.
XX Male Syndrome occurs when the SRY gene, usually exclusive to the Y chromosome, ends up through accidental recombination on the X chromosome that the affected child inherits from their father.
Klinefelter Syndrome occurs when a person's genotype is XXY.
Turner Syndrome occurs when a person has only a single X with no additional X or Y chromosome.
the list goes on.
here, this is a list of genes that are at least partially involved in sex differentiation and the correct development of sex characteristics, and if any of them become defective or non-functional, or if any of them end up on a chromosome they shouldn't be on and expressed when they shouldn't be inactive, you get a legitimate disorder of sex development.
SRD5A2 - chromosome 2
FOXL2 - chromosome 3
CYP21A2 - chromosome 6
DMRT1 - chromosome 9
17βHSD3 - chromosome 9
NR5A1 - chromosome 9
WT1 - chromosome 11
SF1 - chromosome 11
DHH - chromosome 12
SOX9 - chromosome 17
CBX2 - chromosome 17
AR - chromosome X
SRY - chromosome Y
so, faggot, want to tell me i don't know what i'm talking about?
I'm not saying "environmentally induced deformities" don't exist. if someone napalmed me and broke all of my bones with a baseball bat, i would have upon myself an environmentally induced deformity.
what i am saying is
the medical definition of a DISORDER OF SEX DEVELOPMENT
has clear genetic underpinnings.
gender dysphoria is a thing, duhh, it's a neurological disorder. i'm not disputing that. i'm just saying it has fundamentally different etiology to disorders of sex development.
>>6147279
You absolutely don't know what you're talking about.
You gave a laundry list of gene where one of them failing might cause a disorder and then use that to claim that genomic abnormalities are the only necessary and sufficient causes for DSD.
https://www.lhasalimited.org/Public/Library/2014/AOPs%20to%20highlight%20mechanisms%20of%20teratogenicity.pdf
You don't have to look far to see things like the feds proving that's bullshit.
Mess up transcription in any way, even if it's just cause no hormones are binding to the HRE and you get a disorder. It's that simple, a laundry list of one type of cause doesn't mean other documented causes stop existing.
>>6147317
i've never claimed that the disorders you're describing "don't exist", they just aren't classified as disorders of sex development.
>>6147317
Explain why you think this turns an adult into intersex when they take hormones.
>>6147334
It is DSD if you have a boy born without his dick and essentially with deformities like what you'd find with 5ARD cause drugs the mother was exposed to. It's verifiably false to say DSD can only happen from faliure at the pont of gene.
>>6147370
Endo matters a lot, does most of the heavy lifting in creating sexual dimorphism. It's relevant to point that out if everyone is going to be arguing biology.
Cis lesbian here.
Dating sure has gotten complicated now that I have to reject men who dress like women and want to date me, proposition me, get rejected because, surprise surprise, I'm not interested in penises, and then get scandalized and accused of transphobia as a result.
Dating was hard enough before you fuckers came into the picture.
Also, next time you see a MtF trans person going on a rampage about how nobody respects them, consider how masculine that sense of entitlement is.
>>6147429
You were that make pickup artist who got outed in another thread. You're posting the same memes you did back then.
How ironic a man would pretend to be a lesbian to complain about others pretending.
>>6147459
I don't know what you're referring to but I find it unsurprising if people have had experiences similar to my own.
>>6147476
Is this the definitive revised version of your comment or are you going to post another one?
>>6147454
A 16 year old is adult. Fact is don't twist and bend facts to make a point if you want people to listen seriously.
>>6137040
http://youtu.be/KXaCcHxYuns
LOL
>>6147468
You mean they also were men like you who posted cp and got permanent bans and come back to false flag every now and then?
Yeah, might be worth letting janitors know you're evading your bans.
>>6147426
>>6147454
This entire tangent is about the human fetus. If you can talk and buy hormones then you ain't no fetus. If you're just failing to make the argument that the human body can still change you fail again because of course everybody knew that. If you think the human body can morph into an intersex body when you're 16 but it can't change at 20 or 50 then you're peddling black magic sex change potions.
>>6137040
Trans girls get the same respect in my book, even if they don't quite pass, so long as they're doing the best they can. I consider them fellow women. I'm a cis lesbian and I'd date one. Same for trans boys but in reverse- wouldn't date one because I don't do men.
>>6147543
>Trans boys
Would you date one of they promised to stay away from T so long as they were with you?
>>6147482
You're a retard. The human mind does not stop developing until about 25 years old.
>>6147626
gender dysphoria is not a disorder of sex development, regardless.
>>6147637
Sure, but exogenous hormones can induce abnormal biology
>>6147538
Theres a biological background that causes transsexualism and there is no way to identify it until you are that old you dingus.
>>6147668
Hey dingus dingbat play a tune for us on your didgeridoo. We all already knew that stuff but nobody else here is as dumb as you.
>>6147682
Not even the same person as brain guy.
And you've made a complete fool of yourself by insisting what the fda warns about is impossible cause "genes".
Fact is even outside the womb, endo is still needed to create sex phenotypes, it dictates what makes it to protein. Fact is >>6147277 and >>6147454 pertained to adult organisms.
We can't pretend a whole segment of biology doesn't exist just cause it makes your arguments less straightforward.
>>6147682
Nice Adhom btw, I'm sure it nullifies the whole nuclear steroid receptors papers
>>6147693
If that was the case then why are you anons arguing that it's not a disorder of sexual development.
>>6147712
>Not even the same person as brain guy.
What brain guy? There isn't a brain guy.
>And you've made a complete fool of yourself by insisting what the fda warns about is impossible cause "genes".
Not a single person did this or talked about it.
>Fact is even outside the womb, endo is still needed to create sex phenotypes, it dictates what makes it to protein. Fact is >>6147277 and >>6147454 pertained to adult organisms.
Not in the way that is being claimed. Nobody has argued against changes in the body after birth.
>We can't pretend a whole segment of biology doesn't exist just cause it makes your arguments less straightforward.
But you want to pretend something unrelated proves a point?
So far you idiots haven't proven anything and you have only made yourselves look stupid. You don't even know if I am pro or anti trans. You have yet to make a substantive argument that can be used to defend trans as a legitimate thing or to dismantle socially held views of male and female as uniquely separate concepts.
You are just not qualified to lead such a discussion because your arguments are all over the place.
>>6147748
People are arguing against you because you are retarded and not because of an anti-trans agenda.
>>6147724
>Nice Adhom btw
Thanks I got it from you when you started dishing them out because we disagreed with you.
>nuclear steroid receptors papers
You mean your power point presentation that isn't even related to the subject.
>>6147755
You still didn't answer the question.
There are always trannies trying to contort the truth and they end up arguing against other trannies too. That's why nobody believes the science, half of it is wrong, and the other half is too busy shutting the wacko trannies up.
>>6147774
The discussion is over already. Nobody is going to answer your asinine questions. This is called losing all respect among your peers and allies.
>>6147792
Jesus, you're arguing with someone else. Talk about paranoia. Chill dear friend, chill.
>>6147792
I read it and the anon that thinks transsexualism isn't considered a Disorder of sexual development is retarded.
Biological sex is determined by the size of the gametes.
Intersex is medically diagnosed for a very narrow set of birth conditions. This does not include anything transgender.
The transgender condition is thought to be caused by hormones during fetal brain development.
Social gender is decided by society and usually the role you play in society and the way you are perceived. By changing your legal sex you are subject to all the privileges and obligations assigned to your new sex.
Skin cells change in various ways because of your hormone levels.
All of the other "facts" dispensed in this thread are retarded.
>>6147857
What if they can't produce gametes?
>>6147862
Sexual Planaria are hermaphrodites with a set of testes and ovaries. Planaria are also able to reproduce asexually by detaching part of itself. There are Planaria that are entirely asexual and reproduce this way exclusively by detaching their tail. A Planarian also has a high amount of neoblasts and their levels of telomerase remain. They have been found to posses at least 240 genes related to regeneration, and 0.3% of the body is enough to generate completely.
>>6147862
Tardigrades usually come in male and female varieties with a single gonad. Some species are capable of existing asexually with parthenogenic reproduction. Almost 20% of their DNA is acquired from other animals. They can live 10 years without food or water, survive in temperatures close to absolute zero and past the boiling point of water. They can even survive in the vacuum of space.
>>6147178
as a straight trans women im sorry you have to deal with cringy transbians.
I don't really care if you guys wanna argue in the comments over if im a real or not. i dont need your validation, i have been living my life this way longer then this website has existed. it doesn't even matter since the cis girls have already told me how they feel. shows over boys and girls.
thanks again
>>6148106
>I don't need validation
>I have lived longer than 4chan
That's a roundabout way of saying you're not 12 years old but you still have the mentality of a 12 year old.
Don't care. I've never meaningfully interacted with a transwoman at any time in my life. It would be statistically unlikely that I ever meet more than one or two in my life and none of them are currently bothering me so idgaf. Ill call them whatever pronoun they want so long as they seem to put in some effort.
>>6137040
From what I have talked, they do. But depends on a individual really.
>>6137213
>I'm depressed because I just moved to another country and I don't know anyone here
>I'm not
>It depends on what you mean. Emotionally I'm just like a girl my age.
>Trans politics are dumb. I even hate Anna Grodzka (Poland), everyone else who's trans loves her.
>That's gross
>I do, but I want to do FFS anyway, because I still believe that my jawline is masculine and I hate that
>I will in a 3 years or so
>I'm going to Yeson in Korea, because I don't want to train my voice. It's exausting, results are poor. I want to be a singer in a future, so this is my only option.
There's hope for me!
>>6148126
she's sayign she transitioned 12 years ago, I'm pretty sure most people don't transition right after being born.
>>6137051
Bisexual cis guy's version of >>6137213
I'd date a transgirl/guy who
>isn't depressed
>is stable
>not obsessed with trans politics
>doesn't cam, prostitute, escort
>passes
And honestly, assuming you're comfortable with them, having off-gendered genitals is a plus to me. Just be a cool/attractive person and we'll work out the rest later
I wouldn't treat anyone any different whether they're mtf or ftm. I know some trans people that I hate and it's not because they transitioned, but because they're awful people.
>>6147214
Oh, there are upsides and downsides. There is some pretty impossible fat for me to get rid of on my belly that makes it hard to get the flat belly look. Driving me crazy.
Hambeast nerd anon here.
Sorry to hear that your friends are treating you shitty after coming out, OP.
I hope that after wrapping their heads around this new piece of information about you, they will pull their heads out of their asses.
I might not naturally befriend a girl like you, but if one of my female friends revealed to me that they were trans, I would probably be quite surprised, but I would do my best to understand her and incorporate that into our friendship.
Good luck out there.
>>6147429
>Dating was hard enough before you fuckers came into the picture.
Gee, I wonder why. After all, you have the most delightful personality.
>>6137040
I don't think anything of anyone and respect is earned
If I get along well with you we're friends, if you're a piece of shit we aren't, I will respect you if you respect me and have basic values
And that goes beyond gender\sexuality\whatever category you associate yourself with
They make me feel awkward; like they couldn't live up to society's standards of a man so they just dropped out. Their version of femininity is a weird bastardization of the real thing and they tend to try too hard.
>>6152625
>eww these are gross men who just gave up
>why do you gross men suck at being feminine and normal? Couldn't be that my kind reject you and treat you abnormally, must be cause ur gross men eewweewww lol
>>6137040
They creep me out. Remind me of that silence of the lambs guy.Especially the "lesbian" trans. The hetero ones are chill.
>>6137040
Gay (possibly bi) guy here
If there were dtf I'd fuck one, even date one.
It's hard to view them as girls, so it'd be on my mind, but I'm not a dick about it.
>>6140461
But what kind of impression does 4chan give you of people in general? Have you at least considered that the most important factor isn't trans but 4chan?
>>6145162
>Is it?
It is.
>Brain sex, if it exists, has mainly been a historically misogynist concept
The existence of something isn't predicated by how offensive it seems to you. Sexual dimorphism is not some kind of baseless myth you can trigger warning into oblivion.
>If "being female" included "brain sex," that would be moving goalposts.
What is your body if not a vessel for your brain? Unless you think women are little but mindless hosts for functional female reproductive systems, it's silly to believe that the brain has nothing to do with someone's sex. Furthermore, how are you so willing to refute the findings of medical researchers on the subject with little else but vitriol?
>Not really, that's just your reactionary opinion.
What a refutation.
>How horrid, having to be female to be considered female.
No, they're mandated to be the misogynistic ideal female (capable of female reproduction, very feminine in demeanor and appearance, functional vagina without medical intervention or surgery, XX chromosomes, etc.)... criteria that many cis women do not adhere to themselves.
>Next you'll tell me...
Wow original. Throw some South Park in there for good measure. Memes aren't an argument.
>TERFism IS the ideological foundation of feminism.
The "ideological foundation of feminism" didn't include minority women nor lesbians, so I don't know what the hell this is even supposed to mean.
>And I'm not even a feminist.
I'm sure.
>This is about keeping women's politics, spaces, and words actually about women
Representation of trans women falls under this category, as they are women.
>If women don't have power and control in their own places, then feminism is just another misogynist lie that fucks women over.
Hate to break it to you, but there is a lot of misogyny in the ways that TERFs ridicule, target, harass, publicly out and condemn trans women.
>Please stop being so damn wordy, btw.
I guess an allergy to reading shouldn't come as a surprise here.
>>6145162
>Is it? Brain sex, if it exists, has mainly been a historically misogynist concept, not a criteria for being female. If "being female" included "brain sex," that would be moving goalposts. Being female has to do with reproductive sex - brain sex doesn't have shit to do with reproductive sex.
It's not about "brain sex" it's about the brain's internal body map not matching a person's reality. The dissonance between the two is what drives people to transition. A neuroscientist did an interview about it once, you should read it: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/transsexuals-and-the-phantom-penis/3395548#transcript
>But it is curious that most normal people who have carcinoma of the penis, which is not rare, and they have an amputation of the penis as a life saving measure, a majority of them, maybe about 80%, 85% of them, experience a phantom penis, including phantom erections. This is well known. Since this chap is saying his penis doesn't belong to him in the first place, what if his penis is amputated because he wants to become a woman, what happens then?
>The answer is the majority of them don't experience a phantom penis. What's amazing is that your body image, which includes your genitals, is at least in part programmed by genes and your brain is hard-wired to incorporate the genitals as part of your body image. Even more amazing is the observation that women who undergo transgender sexual surgery who acquired an artificial penis, a majority of them since early childhood have experienced a phantom penis. This is absolutely extraordinary because it means that each of us has a brain-based body image which is detailed down to the fine anatomy, including your genitals.
well if I know someone is a transgirl i'm always aware that they aren't 'completely' female but I will treat them as such by referring to them as one. They probably get enough shit without me calling them a man because that's what they were born with.
If they don't pass at all (as in I'm not aware they are a woman) then idk, what am I meant to do unless they tell me?
Simply put, they are not girls. Just mutilated guys.
>>6147622
This is a very late reply since I forgot to track this thread, but no, I wouldn't date a trans guy even if he was willing to put off T for me. A guy with a rack is still going to act like a man at the end of the day and I'm not interested in that, no matter how nice his tits are.
Plus, I wouldn't want someone to put themselves through dysphoria just for my sake. That would be cruel.
>>6141800
>He used to also bitch and moan when someone in our group of trans friends got surgery because he always had some reason why he 'deserved' it more.
Sounds like a fucking asshole. Trans or not, he sounds like a living piece of shit.
>>6162701
Plenty of them like their dicks, not sure why this is supposed to mean anything.
>>6155881
I don't have a problem reading, but I was getting sick of quoting you. You literally write too much.
> it's silly to believe that the brain has nothing to do with someone's sex
And why, exactly, should it have to do with sex? What proof do you have that it does? How can you make this argument when many MTFs keep their dicks and like them?
The anon I responded to said I was chipping away at the "ideological foundation" of feminism, and I said no, because TERFism IS the ideological foundation of feminism.
They aren't women. They're dudes. They are dudes that love their dicks so much they call lesbians vagina fetishists if said lesbians won't fuck them. Another example: they don't want feminism to talk about abortion, they want it to talk about sperm banking. Or another: a man rapes a woman. This is male violence. Said man decides he's trans. Is this violence suddenly NOT a part of male violence? Their inclusion is bad for women, it's bad for ending misogyny, it's bad for ending sexism, period. It gives every man an opening to be as shitty as possible and then lie and say they were the victim the whole time. No thanks.
>misogynist ideal female
Again, how horrid, having to be female to be considered female. Your argument is ridiculous. Being intersex is not the same thing as having a dick.
>Hate to break it to you, but there is a lot of misogyny in the ways that TERFs ridicule, target, harass, publicly out and condemn trans women.
Lmao, yeah, all those rapists and murderers, or the ones who threaten to kill TERFs or sexually harass them truly deserve my sympathy. Women making fun of cheap wigs and weird voices when men have them is not misogyny.
"Trans women are women" is a meme, and you're right, memes aren't arguments. MTFs are misogynists with a gimmick.
>>6155881
Oh, and there are literally straight women who call themselves lesbians, and James Franco does call himself gay. So, no, not hypothetical "what if I become a dolphin?" SP stuff. Ok, dude?
Don't feed the trolls like >>6164093
I see them is women for the most part, but I also notice the ways that they are socialized as men. Cis girl here
>>6137051
I'm a cis guy, and honestly I don't know any trans men. I've heard a couple horror stories about people who act hypermasculine to overcompensate for themselves, but I'm fully comfortable with my masculinity and still flaunt gender roles from time to time, so it sounds fucking pathetic. I'd like to say I view trans men as real men, but I have a hard time seeing the trans girls I know as real women.
This is a sample size of two so I can't say it's representative of everyone, but they seem to base their female identity on an an idealized version of femininity that springs from folklore and hollywood, not the biological reality of women.
And with that I'm fucking off to my usual boards, just stopped by /lgbt/ because I felt extra gay today. All y'all are crazy.
>>6164093
>they call lesbians vagina fetishists if said lesbians won't fuck them.
I have literally never seen this happen or heard of this happening.
>Another example: they don't want feminism to talk about abortion, they want it to talk about sperm banking.
Or this.
>Or another: a man rapes a woman. This is male violence. Said man decides he's trans. Is this violence suddenly NOT a part of male violence?
Or this.
>TERFism IS the ideological foundation of feminism.
Enjoy never being taken seriously by anyone besides a radical fringe group, qtpie
>>6170809
Maybe if you were a woman you'd actually pay attention to what MTFs do in women's spaces.
>>6164164
>I don't like what she's saying! She's a troll! Wahh!
>>6137040
Mtf trans are completely deluded. A doctor tells them they are real women and they instantly believe it. Then they get mad when they are implicitly, non-verbally excluded from women's conversations.
It's like getting mad about not being allowed into a club for natural born Russian speakers. You learn Russian as a second language. They don't let you in. You get vocal chord surgery to have 'Russian' vocal chords. They still don't let you in.
No amount of surgery or acting makes you into a natural born Russian speaker. You must be raised in the gender. MTFs do not have the experiences of being a little girl. they're not male but they will never be women.
>>6171496
An interesting note on this, I did get those experiences socially until I was 12. It's definitely made it a lot easier to reintegrate.
>>6171496
As a little kid I took dance classes and had almost exclusively girls as friends. I was the boy that was at sleep overs. Everyone thought I was a girl until my parents corrected them. Seems like I got those experiences.
>>6172680
Yeah you wish.
>>6172902
Why do you know better?
