Yesterday I was in a conversation with various people involved in LGBT politics at my university, four cis women and two genderqueer transguys. They were talking about how it's disgusting that when people want to transition, they can't just go in and request hormones and start transitioning before having some sort of counselling/psychological assessment. They also said that someone who wants to have their womb/tits removed should just be able to get it done as a standard procedure, instead of having several meetings with health professionals beforehand to make sure they know the ramifications/risks.
I don't know if this is because I'm an out of touch cis man, but these gatekeepers seem like a good thing. Surely, having people there to make sure you're making the right decision for the right reasons before doing something permanent and risky is good? Or is there something I'm not getting because I'm truscum or some shit.
What do you think, /lgbt/?
>genderqueer transguys
Ignore the opinions of people like this no matter what they're talking about.
I live in the UK and it's like that here too.
I agree with the idea in principle. Ensuring that people have all the relevant info before making a life changing decision is very important.
However, if you can't afford private health care, it can take nearly 2 years to get through all the appointments with DRs to get the OK. For me it took 15 months from my referral before I had my first appointment with a GID specialist, and it will be another 8 months before my second which will give me a prescription for HRT to begin. They expect you to have been living full time with no HRT for that time.
The waiting time to qualify for an SRS recommendation is one year but again you need two okays from two different DRs so realistically it'll be another one on top of that before you're even on the 1-2 year waiting list.
It would be so much easier if we could just be mailed a pamphlet and sign a form with the GP.
>>5781236
I'm pretty much enamoured with the informed consent model of HRT that has gained traction in parts of the States. It ensures that the person is aware of the effects, risks, and consequences of hormones, but doesn't present a major barrier to treatment. The only improvement I would suggest is ALSO prescribing a therapist visit along with the hormones.
The model still in popular use (despite no longer being required or recommended by WPATH) involves at least three months of specialized therapy sessions costing the patient between 900 and 1500 dollars (where not covered) which amount to a really long, drawn out "are you suuuure you want them". Fuck that, the only thing it does is foster a terrible relationship between the patient (who needs hormones) and the therapist (who is required to make the patient jump through sufficient hoops).
The only problem with the surgeries needing communication and referral with surgeons, therapists and general practitioners is that a lot of places make getting access to them implausible. The current wait list in Ontario for a referral (from the only people the government deems fit to grant it) for any trans surgery is over 2 years long. Worse, the surgeons that perform the procedures consider those people to be monsters unfit to practice, and require a different therapist's referral.
The process needs to be less awful, because transition's hard enough without the establishment's extra hurdles.
>>5781236
>they can't just go in and request hormones and start transitioning before having some sort of counselling/psychological assessment
A simple psychological assessment would be fine, and would only take a few months. But, in reality, it takes years, from that you started contact, to when you get hormones... Most of which, you have absolutely no contact with anyone at the clinic, they simply have you wait.
>They also said that someone who wants to have their womb/tits removed should just be able to get it done as a standard procedure, instead of having several meetings with health professionals beforehand to make sure they know the ramifications/risks.
They should get to know the risks during the consultation, I don't think there's any point in having several meetings about it.
>>5781328
This. So much this.
The biggest problem I have with informed consent alone is the number of transfags who have serious psychological issues beyond any GID, what would not get picked up otherwise.
There's the secondary issue of people who want hormones for whatever reason, going through the process.
On the other hand, the current model currently too frequently degenerates to prospective transfags getting coached into whatever lies it takes to get the shit they want, while having "YOU NEED TO GET YOUR SHIT NOW. OR YOU WILL DIE. OR EVEN WORSE, YOU WILL BE A HON, AND THEN YOU WILL DIE" yelled at full volume by the genderqueer transguys in your example. I mean that doesn't help anyone.
But I think what it SHOULD come down to, is how much of a risk is the action? How undoable is this? We put a lot of focus on "This is the REAL me". When it doesn't necessarily have to be so critical and final.
Of course, if you open up hormones so that they're elective, and not just a medical necessity, then who pays?
This is going to get more contentious as the ages for transition and hormone therapy will drop.
>>5781236
These gatekeepers have forced me to self med for over 2 fucking years and I'm still not legally on hormones after 3 years of "treatment"
It IS fucking ridiculous. I'm paying for SRS myself now but I probably won't get the required referral letter either. I really don't know what my health insurance is blowing up all this money up these gatekeeper's asses for.
That joker said I'm too depressed to make sound decisions so after 9 years of nonstop treatment she suggests me I get that fixed first before I actually transition. You can't imagine how angry I am.
>>5781236
>LGBT politics at my university
A fatal mistake
>>5781236
Coming from femgen and not trans, but taking meds and modifying your body is part of the principle of natural rights.
We let women take deadly contraceptives that kill thousands each year as otc and allow abortions without any prerequisite brainwashing. Why should this be any different.
Granted I'm coming from a libertarian view but...
>>5781695
Do use hormones for weird personal reasons but am not trans btw. I'm sure that would enrage the psychologists.
>>5781419
>ITT salty hons mad that Qt boys take pills to be cuter
>>5781236
i think you should have to do *something* but 3 or maybe 6 months after initially going to the GP you should be able to get hold of them. provide GPs with printable leaflets on effects of HRT to send you away with, allow people to take current path if they want but after 3 months if you go back to the GP having read the leaflets, sign a waiver and get your skittles.
>>5781702
tfw no qt boy
I propose gatekeeping for the truscum and informed consent for everyone else.
>>5781848
Where do you people live? It took me <6 months from going to therapist to seeing an endocrinologist
And the longest wait was probably getting an appointment with endo
>>5781848
Informed consent for truscum and extreme ultra gatekeeping for genderqueer faggots/nonbinary and etc bullshit
I don't really like the idea of informed consent. Trans healthcare issues need to be seen as medical to get covered. Self diagnosing just takes away credibility and makes it seem like people are just choosing to be trans.
Just change the therapy model, but don't eliminate it.
I'm glad things aren't as bad as the Harry Benjamin era at east.
Seriously, Youtube "transgender charing cross 1980s" to see how therapists would treat trans women, it was awful.
>>5781419
The number of 'transfags' with serious psychological issues is not large enough to justify the massive multi year wait times some medical systems shove on the overwhelming majority of patients who are gonna benefit from hrt.
Will a few more crazies slip through? Maybe. Doesn't mean it's helpful to hold everyone hostage.
Long waiting times are why folk self med. When people are desperate enough to transition and want to halt their dysphoria getting worse, they're gonna self med.
I know so many folk who've done, including myself.
>>5782128
This.
>>5781236
you should be able to do anything you want if a doctor will provide the service. that doesn't mean it wouldn't be reasonable for an insurance company to require a certain evaluation before covering it, or that a doctor would refuse personally without a description of risks. there is nothing wrong with informed consent, and the idea that you should be banned from these things is nanny-state nonsense
>>5781419
You could say the same thing about contraceptives and abortion and those have a good chance of medically killing the women who get them through embolisim and the like.
That still isn't a justification for the state to eliminate negative rights. If those women want to risk their lives then let them. If people want to take statistically much safer hormones, let them.
We don't need an inept state depriving everyone if their agency.
>>5781236
>Jonathan speaks of general nonsense instead of glorius Finglish.
This meme has been abducted and raped. I don't like it anymore.
The reason why informed consent is becoming a thing is to make it safer. People are going to order hormones online and self-medicate if it is difficult or costly to get to them. Informed Consent literally just makes it safer for people.
They do screen you psychologically, but then again there are times where they waive that.
I went in with my name legally changed, fully dressed and they pushed me right through. Had HRT prescribed 14 days later just as soon as lab results were all set and never had any complication.
>>5782011
I'm in Australia and was surprised how quickly I go my process started.
>see GP
>hey can you give me a referral to these people? (psych and endo)
>OK
>see psych (took like a month)
>one session he recommends hormones, gives referral
>see endo (that took about 2 months)
>now just regularly see endo and occasionally need to see GP to get new referral for endo
Surprisingly easy.
>>5782489
Would probably just lead to threats and stuff if you were like femgen and were cool with being a boy.
>>5782489
And here I am getting nowhere after 3 years.
Fuck I wanna die.
>>5782759
Where you at pham? You sound like a UK friend, they always seem to have the longest waits.
>>5782011
I'm in the US. Just had my third visit with my therapist (once a week). She told me today to find an endo who was trans friendly and setup an appointment. Said it would probably take a little while to get in but we could keep "talking" every week in the meantime.
By "a little while" I figured she meant a bit over a month. Like six weeks or something. Maybe.
Your "less than six months" line is scaring me. How long did it take you to get in to see your endocrinologist?
>>5782924
like around 3-4 months? im in a fairly small city in canada that has like one endocrinologist...
>>5782907
Germany. Waiting times are okay, the shrinks are not.
>>5781294
>They expect you to have been living full time with no HRT for that time
this just boggles my mind as to why a professional healthcare establishment thinks this is a good idea.
Gatekeepers are the reason why I don't pass now. Thanks gatekeepers.
>>5782955
Hmm.
Hopefully my super awesome American I-paid-for-this insurance and slightly larger city gives me better results.
At the very least, I can bother the trans support group this weekend and ask for doctor names.
My therapist wanted me to go to it. I promised I'd try it a few times.
>>5783034
Same, I could've started 2 years earlier and wouldn't have self medded with bad levels for another year.
Pic is me just not giving a fuck anymore.
>>5783034
Dont blame being to dumb to self med on gatekeepers
>>5783074
what were these bad levels? and your new extreme regimen is it undoing the damage?
>>5783087
>is it undoing the damage?
Obviously not. Probably doing even more damage.
Bad levels were T above 1 ng/ml and like 85 ng/L E. Once I raised those I got a huge feminization boost but I look a lot like I detransitioned again.
Also got SRS booked and paid for to pressure my shrink into giving me the fucking letter but I guess all that did was frustrate her even more with no prospect of getting that letter.
So just fuck my shit up this year I guess.
>>5783024
It's an indirect form of hazing.
>>5783134
if its doing nothing why are you taking so much? I am going to start 100mg spiro tomorrow is that enouh to drop my T levels to prevent hondom?
im a laissez faire capitalist and ivthink its wrong and dehumanising to do that to ppl
like, what is forethoufht??,??
>>5783223
>is that enouh to drop my T levels to prevent hondom?
Well I needed 300mg, but took 200mg for the longest time and my DHT was super high.
I could go back to Progynova and take like 8mg for proper levels but Estrofem on these levels just feels better. Idk, I'm not even taking that much. In my mind it's Estrofem > Progynova though fuck knows why my levels are that high.
>>5783076
But then you're saying therapists are all but useless and the femboys have the right idea in bypassing them all together and just medding.
>>5783259
They pretty much are. Therapists are terribly useful for helping confused people get sorted out, and for helping people deal with the social-psychological consequences of medical and/or social transition. Bypassing them to get meds is good sense if you already know what you're after.
>>5782330
>>5782121
One major difference. Transfags, even on hormones have a suicide rate well above US combat veterans. It's a huge chunk of the justification why hormones are approved by NIHes and insurance companies in the first place.
On top of that, the concurrence of other disorders in the trans community is also sky high.
If the NIH or equivalent is going to approve a treatment because of risk of suicide, it's perfectly reasonable for them to want to check on the patient's mental health.
>>5785045
>bully transsexuals into being suicidal
>use their suicidal tendencies to deny them hormones.
>>5785045
http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1635&pk_association_webpage=4905
Their suicide rate is actually statistically identical to the general public after treated.
The danger here is we have incompetent people like you with no medical training who feel their desires are enough to make the government ban negative rights.
We live in a western society, not some facist strange land who claims people can't live without the hand of the state.
