please stop claiming you guys are intersex just to validate yourselves.
The issues and problems that intersex people face =/= the issues and problems that transexual people face
Yes, few intersex people transition and go full time, but most transexuals were born as normal boys or girls until they decided to undergo SRS.
The experiences of intersex people to not match up with the experiences of transpeople. I only ask that you guys respect this.
For more info on intersex folks, watch this vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAUDKEI4QKI
>>5755721
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3877116/
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4222943/
It's induced by massive hormonal abnormalities in utero.
We won't criminalize science just cause you claim to be intersex. Push your censorship in tumblr.
>>5755721
Atleast "normalizing" surgery is illegal now where I live
>>5755721
>here is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity
http://journals.aace.com/doi/10.4158/EP14351.RA?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3Dpubmed&
Cry more about how science oppresses you, faker.
>>5755745
Do we actually know that this is true of all trans people though? Not OP btw.
>>5755721
>oppression
>it's a competition
>>5755778
Obviouly not all, certainly not for creepy hons, but biomarkers like 2d:4d are strongly associated with those conditions and the GID diagnosis.
At any rate, it's hardly a wrong thing to cite what the doctors are saying. People aren't going to stop citing the consensus just cause you find it being called a medical condition offensive. Sorry if it seems similar to yours but nobody is stealing anything from you.
>>5755721
>Yes, few intersex people transition and go full time
"A few" intersex people reject their assignment. A few, as in a disproportionate %, because people are assholes and try to force a gender on you. When you see as much as 20% of people with certain conditions reject their initial assignment, that points to something seriously broken with how society approaches gender and biological difference (granted there's not as much data on this as there should be, because doctors are content to just keep doing what they're doing without anything close to adequate follow-up). The whole Alice Dreger DSD school of thought--that intersex has nothing to do with homosexuality or gender variance and we're just "normal" people with a little disorder that needs to be corrected--simply plays into those harmful constructs.
Yes, you're right. Most trans people are not intersex. Most (as in, more than 50%) intersex people don't do any kind of transition. So what? Why does that matter? We need to shame the abnormal freaks who don't just stick to the script?
>>5755745
>>5755754
I never said transpeople are illegitimate in their gender dysphoria. You didn't watch the video did you?
All I'm saying that intersex people =/= transpeople.
When a trans person is born, both their doctors and their parents see them as a normal baby. As a transperson grows up, they realize their brains don't match with their bodies which is why they ACTIVELY PURSUE transitioning.
Us intersex folks (for most of us) are the opposite. We want to keep what we have. I've had doctors constantly prodding my genitals, telling my parents that I'm not normal and I need to get surgery so I can be a regular kid. And they all went ahead are operated on me without my input on what I want for my own body.
After countless surgeries, I feel like something was stolen from me on that operating table. I just wanted to keep my junk the way it was and see how I would develop.
Intersex people want to NOT be touched by surgeries and operations. Generally, we wish to keep our junk so that we can have the choice to either keep it forever or change it once we've matured and are more sure of ourselves.
I was never given that choice. And I have never related to any trans story of "I always knew I was X and tried to get hormones and surgeries". If anything, I tried to avoid doctors and hospitals period.
>>5755839
>We want to keep what we have
That really depends on people. Lots of them don't do things your way.
That doesn't give you a right to shit on others for having taken a different path, or medical patients who only want to take care of themselves.
Go push your egotism elsewhere asshole. We aren't going to condemn others for doing what keeps them going.
>>5755839
This is a good post. This is very insightful.
I remember hearing a story about an intersex person who went through a few surgeries willingly and in the end regretted it and wished they just had the body they were born with.
The idea is fucked up. It's literally genital mutilation and very sobering.
>>5755839
And by the way, if we do look at the overwhelming amount of studies, GID is tied to hormonal and other abnormalities. Recognizing that doesn't harm you and you don't have a right to demand others become silent just because you think it seems too close to your narrative.
>>5755861
except you keep thinking that transpeople and intersex are one and the same. They're not.
You keep disregarding the experiences of real intersex people in order to validate yourselves.
Not cool.
>>5755870
>And by the way, if we do look at the overwhelming amount of studies, GID is tied to hormonal and other abnormalities.
Read my post again. I never said transpeople were liars or fakes. I simply said that the issues of transpeople are different than intersex people. They are not the same.
>Recognizing that doesn't harm you and you don't have a right to demand others become silent
I never said transpeople should shut up. I only ask that they respect intersex folks as their own group and to be honest about their own physical history. If you weren't born with abnormal genitalia/reproduction system, you're not intersex. Period.
Just as most transpeople would say, that in order to be trans, you have to have GID.
>>5755876
Where has that been said? Are you offended people cite the biological causes? That hardly counts when it's just citing biological causes.
I'm sorry but that doesn't take away anything from you and it's disgusting how you want to push censorship and demand people stop saying what the doctors say.
You think that by shutting up people and the perfectly valid medical information it'll somehow help you, you're wrong.
>>5755839
>Us intersex folks (for most of us) are the opposite. We want to keep what we have.
No, we want autonomy to make those decisions ourselves, fully-informed. This is also what trans people want. And these realities are actually connected: some of the prominent figures in the construction of medical standards around "DSD" are also dead-set against trans children having any medical autonomy (see Alice Dreger, who thinks maybe reparative therapy isn't such a bad idea). I agree that trans vs intersex are two entirely different experiences but there's nothing wrong with building bridges
>>5755895
if you have GID, you are trans.
If you do not have GID, you are not trans
If you were born with abnormal genitalia/reproduction system, then you are intersex
If you were not born with these physical abnomalies, then you are not intersex.
The biological studies prove that GID is a real condition but they have no input on intersex people.
>>5755892
>If you weren't born with abnormal genitalia/reproduction system
That's debatable considering the fact that doctors lump atypical CAH and MAIS in as DSDs. Those seem to have a causal role in a good portion of GID cases BTW. http://journals.aace.com/doi/10.4158/EP14351.RA?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%3dpubmed
People haven't claimed anything BTW.
Demanding other people shut up because you think they detract from your oppression Olympics, not cool in the least.
>Babby Biology General
>>5755907
Except nobody has claimed anything so nice strawmen.
You've insisted that citing the medicine is wrong, but people shoudln't abide by.
You're also speaking for other intersex people and claiming your way is the only way and they're wrong for saying anything else.
Disgusting, you probably aren't even intersex, faker. They don't seem to like you.
>>5755907
Quick question does klinefelters fall under the intersex banner some say no others yes
>>5755907
But why do you actively want to suppress the information that scientists have discovered about how trans people develop physically, and the obvious parallels to established cases of intersexual development? It seems to me that the medical realities that trans people face override your baseless political beliefs.
>>5755924
He says no cause the genitals are normal, I'd say it's up to the individual with the condition.
>>5755909
I never said I was moar oppressed than you.
I simply want transpeople to be honest about their physical history and not claim that they're intersex just to win validation points.
It would be just as wrong for me to claim that I'm trans because I don't experience any kind of dysphoria at all, or at least the kind that transpeople describe. All I want is my original genitals back but it's not like it's killing me.
>>5755918
Shouldn't you be on /pol/ pretending you're not a faggot?
>>5755934
Nah, having fun now.
>>5755930
>honest about their physical history
Mentioning abnormal hormone levels when you've got the biomarkers and dev probs is being honest. Not claiming to be like you ether.
You say that's wrong but I don't see what's wrong in being truthful. Just the same way that you want to speak for yourself, you have no right to demand that others can't speak truthfully.
>>5755924
OP here. Yes. Personally I would put Klinefelters under the intersex banner. It's a abnormal hormonal condition that physically changes the body naturally.
It's up to the individual to decide if they want to transition or just be a dude with a condition.
>>5755941
ow the edge
>>5755861
>That doesn't give you a right to shit on others for having taken a different path
did you miss out on the comments regarding their were born with mismatched normal genitalia most of this board has?
>>5755964
There were people in this thread and board with genital deformities, they don't all see things your way. You've got no right to tell them to shut up.
>>5755969
not him but he has a freedom of speech
>>5756007
indeed, and other people, such as the anons who actually have DSD aren't evil for seeing things differently than him. Trans aren't wrong for citing their own medical condition and haven't taken anything from him.
He can say what he wants, but he has no right to punish or coerce others for seeing things differently.
>>5755927
how about you describe how similar transpeople are to intersex people? According to your studies, transpeople have abnormalities in the brain. Intersex people have abnormalities in the genital/reproduction system.
Those studies don't correlate at all with intersex folks.
>>5756025
>abnormalities in the
Induced by hormonal and sometimes genetic abnormalities. The genes responsible for development are steroid sensitive.
>>5756007
This website is the world's strongest case against freedom of speech. Is that intentional? Like this site is a strawman meant to convince people to abolish freedom of speech?
>>5755839
There are intersex structures in transfolk. You're not Godking Arbiter of Intersexuality. The definition is changing to accompany new data: that's science. Get over it.
>>5756025
I'd say they both fall under disorders of sexual development, which is casually called intersex even though intersex is technically a specific subset
intersex: parents decide how to raise it
transgender: genitalia says how to raise it
>>5755795
>certainly not for creepy hons
You don't know that.
>biomarkers like 2d:4d are strongly associated with those conditions and the GID diagnosis.
No they're not.
>At any rate, it's hardly a wrong thing to cite what the doctors are saying.
It is when you misrepresent the facts and claim some correlations are causal when they're not.
>>5756057
This is a myth. Transfolk claim intersexuality because they believe if they're intersex that they are much closer to their gender than if they weren't. That's false because being intersex does not make you any more or less of either gender. Even genetic abnormalities cause malfunctions in the body but they do not make someone more of a genetic man or woman. I would be very suspicious of anyone that says a disability makes their male personality more feminine.
>>5756100
It's a myth because you say so? Great response, faggot. First discredit the existing studies.
>>5756100
They don't claim. But citing studies that prove a link to hormonal abnormalities and receptors concerning them are relevant and those are involved in dymorphism.
Claiming your folk wisdom knows better than the studies won't make it stop being so.
>>5756111
The burden of proof is on you. Science doesn't accept these myths just to keep you happy.
>>5756120
Verbal acrobatics don't make transgender and intersex share the same cause and symptoms. Because transgender might have one of many potential causes wont prove there is a link.
>>5756143
And nobody has said they're the same save for the one person who's demanding censorship and insisting the other people in this board who do have DSDs have to shut up.
Haven't claimed anything ourselves, just cited studies. We shouldn't censor those.
>>5756129
Funny how your only response to the studies posted here was to double down and say it's wrong to talk about them.
You shouldn't expect the whole world to ban stuff just cause you dislike it.
>>5756143
No one cares what you believe, go cry over your chopped up genitals faggot. Unsprisingly, no one cares about your ancedotal evidence and uninformed opinions, abnormal (read intersex) brain conditions cause transexuality whether you "believe" it or not.
>>5756100
>Transfolk claim intersexuality because they believe if they're intersex that they are much closer to their gender than if they weren't.
no, we don't. now your post is worthless.
>>5756624
I'm not just listing anecdotal evidence. I posted a video with other intersex people talking about their condition. They clearly separate transgender/transexuals from themselves. If you check the official intersex resource website. They make a clear distinction as well.
I'll say it again. The studies posted above is about GID. Not about intersex people. It's an exclusive study done on transpeople health.
I never claimed transpeople to be illegitimate or fake. But you guys put words in my mouth and say that I'm "silencing" you.
But you're the ones silencing me.
>>5755745
>citing ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
>>5755745
>citing the goverment
>>5755721
>dont claim to be part of muh club
nobody cares. if someone wants to lie its on them and in the end it doesnt really matter. im not even trans but this post is ridiculous trying to be exclusive because you were born fucked up
trannies and intersex are both fucked. get over yourself lmao
>>5757146
Those are all links to privately owned journals. The govt just has a reference.
If you're so desperate to claim the doctors are a fraud that you'll count NIH mentions as a reason to claim conspiracy, then i don't know what to say.
>>5755876
And the only real intersex people are the ones with experiences and views identical to yours?
The rest don't count because you say so?
>>5755954
>It's a abnormal hormonal condition that physically changes the body naturally
That could describe trans people too based on the neurological research.
>>5756683
it was always worthless
So, OP, just to get this straight. Do you say that being trans isn't an intersex condition, or that trans people should stop impersonating intersex people? Not quite sure what your issue is tbqfh.
the only thing that annoys me about trans people saying they're intersex is i've had a lot of health problems regarding my condition, a lot of other issues without even getting into genitals (they look fairly normal outside desu). being silenced over any questions i had about my body, and got used to having no body autonomy. I didn't even have the ability to question properly until my early 20s despite being on HRT since my teens. I
desu i can see why trans people do it, making it a body thing instead of a brain thing makes being trans a lot more legitimate in the eyes of skeptics (because people think brain = mental, and forget brain = neurological too). but people forget about the other issues. My life expectancy is lower than a non-intersex person's. My childhood was full of bullying and developmental issues. It's great to have an edge when you fight your assignment and 'transition' as intersex because of body shape, hormone levels or sex organs (i'm mtf but i already have a womb! i'm ftm and i already have body hair and a 2 inch clit pre-T!) but desu the potential of not seeing 70, and having the chance for gamete storage for bio babies taken away due to natural sterility or gonadectomy as a child... great you can pass easier but you will never have a normal life with the chances anyone else has, even trans people. You'd have to be vain or desperate to sacrifice 20 years of life, gain health problems and defects and never have the ability to have natural children just to look slightly better without cosmetic surgery that you're probably gonna get anyway.
i'm grateful for the trans community for supporting me, giving me so many friends, understanding people, and i've dated a lot of trans people. but pls don't make being intersex about 'my genitals is weird'. there's a lot more to it and its so wildly varied. genetic fuckery fucks more than your junk. you don't want to buy into wanting to be a human lab rat for the sake of legitimizing your gender. trust me
It might be debatably accurate to label transness as an intersex condition but that's not a useful and conflates the issues that trans and intersex folks deal with.
>>5755721
I am trans and both intersex.
Here is my proof.
http://i.imgur.com/Vs6avF8.jpg
>>5757844
Oh here is my trip
>>5757844
This is probably a very stupid question, but what makes an intersex person trans versus cis?
>>5757937
just like any baby, you are assigned something at birth. you can feel wrong and disagree with that an transition. for example i required testosterone as a teen to look male as my parents gave me a male name and raised me as a boy. i later decided to transition, take estrogen and get my surgically enhanced dicklet into a surgically made vagina, and live as a woman. ta da! intersex and trans.
>>5757844
It's like you guys never read anything OP says.
OP is not saying you can't be intersex AND trans. They clearly said you can.
But what they're saying is most transpeople aren't medically intersex.
Like what this anon says:
>>5757782
>the only thing that annoys me about trans people saying they're intersex is i've had a lot of health problems regarding my condition, a lot of other issues without even getting into genitals (they look fairly normal outside desu). being silenced over any questions i had about my body, and got used to having no body autonomy. I didn't even have the ability to question properly until my early 20s despite being on HRT since my teens.
> i can see why trans people do it, making it a body thing instead of a brain thing makes being trans a lot more legitimate in the eyes of skeptics (because people think brain = mental, and forget brain = neurological too). but people forget about the other issues. My life expectancy is lower than a non-intersex person's.
>>5757971
Okay, that makes sense; I figured it might have to do with the assigned sex at birth, but I didn't want to presume.
>>5758036
remember that assignment of birth sex for intersex people can result in corrective surgery without consent, so it makes the 'assigned at birth' thing that bothers trans people seem particularly arbitrary and brutal for intersex people who transition
>>5758016
I am intersexed and I am trans at the same time. Do you want my fucking medical records to see I have pais or want to test my defective sex chromosomes? Yeah, I get that a lot of other intersexed people who thinks people who are not intersex and are trans go out of their way to claim something they are not just to gain social acceptance. However, I was still assigned male at birth and I was still reared, although there was a lot more tolerance for me to be feminine to a point, male, but what makes me trans is that I transitioned from presenting male to female. I mostly keep it to myself I am intersexed too honestly, but yeah I experienced getting picked on, getting called names, and other shit. In fact, my mother has to keep my in the room with her at all times because the doctor wanted to give me srs soon after I was born, but she wouldn't let them. However, despite being trans and wanting srs I think it was for the best because it allowed me to choose what I am.
Now, fuck off.
>>5758130
i don't understand why you're upset. we have similar problems. i'm having to transition too. the choice is great but i'd have liked to have that choice earlier instead of having my masculinity enforced and policed viciously. i have been corrected without consent. my parents said i was punishing them when i started looking into my medical records
fucking privileged bitch
>>5758178
I am sorry I kind of over reacted, but I feel sorry for my trans siters. I think they are intersex too desu, but maybe not psychically. We still go through the same crap for the most part. For me, at least from someone who was thanksfully not altered save for getting my foreskin chopped off in an attempted to make me look bigger, the only differences between being intersex and being non-intersex trans is that people think we have not choice in the matter while they think non-intersex trans have a choice in it. However, we are all still freaks in the eyes of normal people at the end of the day.
>>5758265
in my experience, no-one knows what intersex is so everyone thinks i'm trans. the thing is, before i transitioned, people still thought i was trans, but a trans man. yeah, at the end of the day we're still freaks. at work, people made fun of me for being a man. when i explained the reality, no-one made fun of me anymore. they just refused to talk to me at all. i think regular trans people can just blow people's minds by existing beyond such concrete and rigid social structures... and us, we're just beyond even that.
>>5755721
Actually we do have a big thing in common. Shithead doctors and parents want to make us "normal" rather than letting us be ourselves. Most of the rest of society also wants us to be 100% in whatever camp the doc said we were in when we were born.
Intersex transgenders are often screwed by the very operations to assign them to one sex or the other. The scar tissue left behind often makes SRS impossible or at the minimum not likely to succeed. Then there are all the permanent changes due to the hormone regimens often prescribed to make us normal.
>>5755839
>All I'm saying that intersex people =/= transpeople.
we never said we were.
I feel for you. I was subjected to conversion therapy to try to make me cis straight, when I'm MtF bisexual. Ended up destroying who I was.
>>5760212
>we never said we were.
you're not a spokesperson though and if the medical community confirms the brain sex theory it may decide that it is an intersex condition.
>>5760475
>you're not a spokesperson though and if the medical community confirms the brain sex theory it may decide that it is an intersex condition.
That still won't negate
>>5760212
>Actually we do have a big thing in common. Shithead doctors and parents want to make us "normal" rather than letting us be ourselves. Most of the rest of society also wants us to be 100% in whatever camp the doc said we were in when we were born.
>>5760575
i don't think you understood me. i wasn't saying anythin more than what i said. to put it in other words: there is not enough scientific data about trans people to confirm or deny that they may be intersex and the medical community may decide that being transgender is an intersex condition when it is better understood. also i want to tell OP that his personal experiences due to his condition aren't included in the criteria of what is and isn't intersex. it's like he denies intersex people that weren't "corrected" at birth and had less medical issues the status of being intersex. but i think he's gone.
Wait, as a cis person, aren't trans and intersex different? Sex is different than gender right? Sex relates to the physical structures and hormonal function of the reproduction system, while gender relates to the neurological aspects of a person's identity, right? So trans and intersex people aren't the same are they? There can be transgendered people that have intersexual characteristics, but because gender isn't the same as sex it really doesn't matter if a trans person has certain hormonal characteristics that are similar to intersex people as long as their reproduction system is predominately male/female they're still decided not intersex, right?
>>5760633
>aren't trans and intersex different?
depends on wether the medical community will include gender dysphoria under the intersex umbrella in the future when more studies have been done and it is better understood. the brain sex stuff does give the option to include it under intersex. right now: they are considered two different things as far as i know.
>>5760652
There's not a difference between sex and gender, though?
>>5761286
there is. to make it short: gender is your brain and sex is the rest of your body.
I agree with OP. Transexual is not the same as intersex because the circumstances surrounding those two are different. When it comes to the healthcare of these two groups, there is absolutely a distinction because they have different needs.
Conflating the two as the same is not helpful and even dangerous to the intersex group. Why?
Transpeople are the loudest minority and there's more transfolks than intersex folks. If we conflate the two together, then what's prescribed to help treat transpeople will be designated to intersex folks.
How do you treat the GID of an mtf person? They have to go under SRS, given estrogen, spiro, and for those who request it, post op surgery.
Would you give the same treatment to ftms? No! For ftms, you put them on a T injection treatment and if they sign up for it, breast removal surgery. Bottom surgery is more iffy for ftms, so that is a much debatable treatment for them.
For intersex folks I agree with
>>5755902
We need the autonomy to make our own decisions, fully informed. So instead of our doctors and parents fucking hiding our medical information from us like it's a terrible secret or something, intersex folks need advocates to get the medical community to be open and share OUR OWN FUCKING MEDICAL DATA TO US.
From there, intersex folks can make the following decisions:
>keep current genitalia
>transition
>change some body parts but not transitioning
Should a intersex person decide to transition, then absolutely, trans resources and information would greatly apply to that person.
But for a lot of intersex people, we'd generally like to NOT BE OPERATED ON WITHOUT OUR CONSENT. Often doctors decide what's best for us, manipulate parents to agree with them, and then we go under the knife, not realizing how fucking heavy a decision has been made without even our rights being considered.
(Part 1)
>>5761497
(Part 2)
Generally, the physical anomalies in intersex folks vary from person to person, and our medical information regarding our genitalia or reproduction system will require different treatments depending on what the intersex person wants.
But no, we usually don't get this luxury. Doctors generally think that if something is an anomaly, it is bad and must be removed.
Do you know how extreme that is? To do surgery on someone who has no power? That is 1800's horror story bullshit and should not be happening in current modern day hospitals.
There are a lot of studies happening for transpeople, but intersex people are still an understudied group with many varieties and differing needs.
How do you treat a young trans child? I hear most transpeople advocate for them to be put on blockers until they're at an age where they know for sure whether or not they want to transition.
How do you treat a intersex child? Let them keep what they got and when they're at an age where they're sure they know what they want, let them make the decision.
But for most cases, this does not happen, and you end up with a lot of intersex people who feel traumatized and angry for their unwanted surgeries. There is not much of a support group for these folks.
Yes, both transfolks and intersex folks suffer in many different ways and a lot of intersex people join the transition umbrella. But generally our treatment and health needs are different.
It's important to recognize this distinction.
>>5761549
(Part 3)
That being said, after all that has been done and said to me, I really feel for OP's story.
It would be incredibly unhelpful to me if a mtf told me, "oh well, just go on spiro and try these hormones and meds to transition".
I don't need hormones or meds. The damage has been done and for now, the last thing I want is more medical intervention that physically modifies my body.
If transpeople can recognize how different a lot of intersex folks are from their medical issues, that would be great!
Thank you for reading this.
TLDR; intersex medical needs require treatments that don't apply to transpeople. Yes, there are intersex transexuals, but most are not.
>>5755721
>please stop claiming you guys are intersex just to validate yourselves.
We don't claim ourselves to be intersex, but it's pretty much the same thing... And honestly, they should probably be in the same group (i.e. transsexualism becomes another state of intersex).
>The experiences of intersex people to not match up with the experiences of transpeople. I only ask that you guys respect this.
The experiences of intserex people do not match up with the experience of other intersex people.
You should respect that too, and transsexuals have much more in common with other intersex people, than some intersex people.
The whole point of removing "normalizing" surgery, is based on the same thing as transsexualism is based on, which is "Gender Identity". If that didn't exist, and wasn't accepted, there'd be no reason to not change the sex on intersex kids to the parents choosing.
>>5755839
>>5761497
>>5761549
>>5761591
You're not intersex, you're creating a sockpuppet.
The intersex people with ambigious genitalia do, in the overwhelming majority, want surgery.
Most intersex people may want one surgery to remove a faulty secondary sex characteristics, but many intersex people have no idea that they're intersex, and many will die without anyone in the world ever knowing they were intersex.
>>5761643
I did say the words "generally" and individual cases will be different and will require different treatments.
My main advocacy is allowing intersex folks to see their own medical history and information and letting them decide what they want to do. So basically, bodily automy.
>>5761497
>>5761549
>>5761591
most of these posts are you wallowing in self pity and the rest is you showing off how little you know about medicine and how and why things are being categorized.
>If we conflate the two together, then what's prescribed to help treat transpeople will be designated to intersex folks.
like, really? really? i can't believe you're serious here? please be baiting!
>>5761621
>We don't claim ourselves to be intersex
>it's pretty much the same thing
Hmmm
>>5761728
It is the same thing.
Tell me the difference between them.
If you go by definition, all cis female mothers, who have had a boy, are also intersex.
>>5761621
>We don't claim ourselves to be intersex, but it's pretty much the same thing
>>5761781
It can be the same thing, and you can state it, without actually saying you're intersex.
Not very good at reading comprehension, are we?
>but pls don't make being intersex about 'my genitals is weird'
The only ones doing that itt are the intersex elitists who are trying to define what is or is not intersex based on their personal opinions over medical consensus.
>there's a lot more to it and its so wildly varied
>genetic fuckery fucks more than your junk
And one of those variations that go beyond junk are the neurological differences in trans people which is why it is becoming more recognized as a type of intersex condition.
>>5761497
>Transpeople are the loudest minority
Try to be a little bit less obvious with your bait.
>>5757844
>http://i.imgur.com/Vs6avF8.jpg
thats so cute! have you named ur thing thang??
>>5763017
they are though...
Current human rights movement, it's the transwomen that are in the spotlight. Gays and lesbians are sooooooo 2000's.
>>5761666
Trans people want bodily autonomy too. We respect your desire for it and want that for ourselves and everyone else.
Relax.
It's not trans people hurting you, it's the cis doctors who performed unneeded surgery and the parents who hid it from you.
>>5761497
>If we conflate the two together, then what's prescribed to help treat transpeople will be designated to intersex folks.
Really? That's your argument? That doctors recognizing the relation between intersex disorders and GID and classifying GID as a type of intersex disorder will force medicine to abandon all specialized treatment for all the other specific types of intersex disorders and give them trans treatment?
Are you really so delusional that you think that's the case or is this just some really poorly thought-out strawman bait?
>How do you treat the GID of an mtf person?They have to go under SRS, given estrogen, spiro, and for those who request it, post op surgery.
>Would you give the same treatment to ftms? No! For ftms, you put them on a T injection treatment and if they sign up for it, breast removal surgery. Bottom surgery is more iffy for ftms, so that is a much debatable treatment for them.
And THIS is the example you use to try to make your point? Two specialized treatments despite the conditions being classified the same. Yet you expect us to believe that GID being classified as one type of intersex disorder among many with with their own specifics and treatments would somehow be different and force all the other treatments to be replaced by the treatment for GID, which you've already identified as actually two different treatments to suit specific needs.
>>5763145
have you ever had periods with your penis?
it really sucks. Lemme tell you.
>>5761591
>It would be incredibly unhelpful to me if a mtf told me, "oh well, just go on spiro and try these hormones and meds to transition"
>things that are totally definitely happening all the time and are major problems
It's stupid for anyone to recommend the treatment for one condition to treat another one but that's not what's happening when doctors recognize GID as a type of intersex condition.
Some intersex people do want and need medical intervention and your personal experiences, while valid, do not overrule other people's.
>If transpeople can recognize how different a lot of intersex folks are from their medical issues, that would be great!
About as different as some of the other intersex disorders are from each-other, they're all still intersex disorders.
I've posted earlier in this thread but to reiterate, gender is different than sex, right?
So why is TransGENDER being conflated with INTERSEX?
Why would something as nebulous as "experiences lining up" define a group?
Are descendants of Africans living in America not black because their experiences don't line up with Africans living in Africa?
Are people born with Intersex conditions no longer intersex if they're not wrongfully operated on as children, because they have a different life experience than you?
The definition I would tend to apply to intersex is "the abnormal condition of being intermediate between male and female." This definition has literally nothing to do with life experience. Whether transsexuals are born physiologically intermediate in some ways seems to have more bearing on this than experience.
The problem OP, is that your point only stands when you make the issue about something tangential.
transGENDER
interSEX
>>5763090
>Current human rights movement, it's the transwomen that are in the spotlight
Yeah they're the spotlight in the first world but it's mostly other people speaking for or against them and they themselves have very little in the way of a personal voice or influence in politics or the media.
>>5763142
Before caitlyn jenner the most recognized transperson by people in my personal experience was chaz bono but yeah ftms attract less of both positive and negative attention and a lot of it is based in sexism with a dash of ftms having an easier time passing.
>>5763186
Perhaps transsexuals are both a sub category of the larger "transgender umbrella" and intersex.
I don't think anyone is arguing that cis snowflakes and genderqueers are intersex.
So when you're looking at the transGENDERS you're looking at a lot of people who are not transsexual, if you really want to nitpick terminology.
>>5763223
transSEXual
interSEX
Flimsy point senpai
>>5763165
Oh you totally win with that.
Clearly that proves your conspiracy theory that doctors classifying GID as one type of intersex among many with varied specifics and treatments would force all medical literature and established treatments for all the other varied disorders to be tossed out the window :^)
>>5763186
Because gender identity comes from the brain which posses sexual dimorphism and can therefore be the subject of an intersex disorder.
I love how trannies claim they are both intersex and also claim they are not biologically male.
>>5763294
I don't hear that from them. All the same, please elaborate on the mutual exclusivity of those two things. Are you saying all intersex people are biologically male?
So what I'm getting from this thread is being intersex makes you batshit insane, paranoid, and unable to construct arguments.
>>5763344
salty salty salty tranny detected
you know, reading through all these posts, the intersex anons never once insulted transpeople, and were just explaining their position.
Most of the insults and the shitflinging are coming from trans anons who are totally butthurt and defensive.
>>5763344
It could also be the newest /pol/ bait. Sometimes they pretend to be a member of some group to add legitimacy to their shitposting or so they can frame any disagreement as an attack on another minority.
>>5763344
all i see is intersex guys being polite and talking about why they feel the way they do.
all the tranny posts are really rude and insult intersex people in really unnecessary ways. It seems like a lot of you guys skimmed their posts instead of actually reading them and assumed the worst.
>>5763372
it's literally just OP asking transpeople to stop calling themselves intersex.
If it was /pol/, it would have been worded "TRANNIES ARE LIARS AND WILL ALWAYS BE MEN AND ARE NOT AS EXCUSABLE AS INTERSEX! LONG LIVE THE HERMAPHODITES!"
Read through the posts, not once did OP said GID was not real.
>>5763366
>the intersex anons never once insulted transpeople
They're just insisting that allowing doctors to categorize GID as a type of intersex disorder somehow harms intersex people or will even remove their treatment as part of some conspiracy and seemingly blaming trans people in some part for their hardships
>>5763366
This, basically.
That said, from what I recall, the identification by trans people as "intersex" has usually been a fringe position - so it's kinda weird for OP to just randomly bring up imo, when they're just basically reciting what the standard intersex position on those claims has been. Maybe a symptom of the shit-tier way people get represented.
>>5763386
And people have literally just pointed to the actual research suggesting a neurological intersex disorder but that was ignored so people could go off into conspiracy theories about transpeople being responsible for the medical hardships of intersex people.
>>5763405
Remember, experience defines intersex, not being born with an intersex condition.
>>5763410
i'm not intersex tho so I can shit on trannies all I want. And with the way you guys behaved in this thread, no wonder most of /lgbt/ hates you guys.
>>5763405
>but that was ignored so people could go off into conspiracy theories about transpeople being responsible for the medical hardships of intersex people.
where the fuck are you getting this? I'm not seeing this anywhere.
>>5763401
Pretty sure "citing the government" anon could have been anyone.
>>5763421
>>5763405
Some people defining a previously known disorder as "neurologically intersex" is not a solid argument that transgender = intersex, though. That's basically just starting a semantic argument, and most sources would disagree with your conclusion.
For example:
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm
Can of worms, frankly.
>>5763441
Well I tried making some thought out posts, and was hoping for replies, and got ultra ignored, so I made an insulting post and got all these replies, so its clear to me what both you and they are here for. Hint: not thoughtful discussion, you're shying away from that.
>>5763450
But "experience" is a solid basis for creating the category, right?
>>5763450
Medline is hardly a peer reviewed journal. And at any rate if the mechanism behind it is endo abnormalities, then it's probably a DSD. There's been large medical bodies like the AACE to make that claim.
>>5761497
>We need the autonomy to make our own decisions, fully informed. So instead of our doctors and parents fucking hiding our medical information from us like it's a terrible secret or something, intersex folks need advocates to get the medical community to be open and share OUR OWN FUCKING MEDICAL DATA TO US.
Yes I agree, didn't mean to undermine that point :/
>>5763428
That and it came right along with a lot of other bait threads who were spammed. Guess that made it really easy to mistake for just being another part of the bait and that's why everyone was snide.
You'd have to be mentally I'll to want to stay a hermaphrodite. What's so wrong with being normal? Snow flakes.
>>5763395
>They're just insisting that allowing doctors to categorize GID as a type of intersex disorder somehow harms intersex people or will even remove their treatment as part of some conspiracy and seemingly blaming trans people in some part for their hardships
Why would you WANT it classified as a DSD? So doctors can pump mtf's full of testosterone in an attempt to "normalize" them? Lumping all the dozens of intersex conditions under one umbrella hasn't had the best of results.
>>5763553
They already do that. It's only in the last couple of years that countries like canada have started banning conversion therapy.
>>5763457
>But "experience" is a solid basis for creating the category, right?
They're talking about experience with having a recognized physiological (as opposed to neurological) intersex condition. So yes.
>>5763466
>Medline is hardly a peer reviewed journal
The only reason I chose that source (as opposed to listing every source which defines an intersex condition this way, in which case I could just as well save some time and point you to Wiki and ask that you read the citations) was because it was from the NLM. You know, like the first contrary argument in this thread's links were.
>>5763629
>physiological (as opposed to neurological)
the opposite of physiologial is psychological which is not the same as neurological. neurological is physiological. i'm entirely sure though so if you disagree and can source something i'd appreciate it.
and everybody knows that it isn't recognized as intersex right now. but when new studies and new information come out the medical community usually redefines stuff, builds new connections and breaks old connections. so the argument can't be concluded within, idk, the next 15 years?
>>5764752(me)
>i'm not entirely sure though
fixed it for me.
>>5763446
How about >>5761497 where they suggest that classifying GID as a type of intersex disorder would be "dangerous" to other intersex people because trans people are so "loud" that their treatment will replace the treatments for all other types of intersex disorder. They then go on to undermine their point by using the example of ftms and mtfs needing different treatments specific to their needs, despite them both being classified as GID.
Or >>5756100 claiming that the observed neurological differences in trans people are a "myth".
Or the tinfoil hat denial of research that >>5757335 and >>5763401 point out.
And just this entire thread in general which blames transpeople for doing some sort of damage to intersex people, supposedly to validate their identity, by not ignoring what research shows. It's the classic "stop making us look bad trannies REEEE! the only reason we have issues with general public is them associating us with you!"
>>5766082
to be honest, i don't blame them for not wanting to associate with trannies.
So far /lgbt/ hates mtfs, but the intersex anons have been pretty quiet until this thread came along.
>>5766082
not even trannies want to associate with themselves.
>>5763553
>So doctors can pump mtf's full of testosterone in an attempt to "normalize" them?
They already tried that and many other treatments before settling on transition as the best available one and them changing how GID is categorized again for the sake of technical specificity isn't likely to change that outside of your conspiracy theories.
>>5763629
Neurology is physiology.
>>5766165
>tfw you will never bleed out your period through your penis
>tfw you will never have both ovaries and testes
>tfw you will never have a vagina but with an enormous dick shaped clit
>tfw you will never be born with a tiny microdick that can never get hard and you're infertile and can't orgasm
>tfw you will never be born as an XY chromosomal person with a vagina but you're completely missing the reproductive organs to produce a baby with testes that are deep up in there
i will only ever just have GID.... why?
>>5766092
That's fine, you can want to associate or not with whoever you want, but blaming trannies for the hardships of intersex people is just as stupid as those masculine-straight-acting-white gay guys desperate to be accepted by /pol/ types with their bs "b-but I'm one of the GOOD degenerates not like all the others, the only reason /pol/ hates me must be the trannies and faggots and dykes making me look bad by association!"
>>5766221
Yeah cause there's totally only one specific intersex disorder and one exact type of life experience to go along with it, oh wait...
>>5766257
uh.... except that they listed a lot of different types of intersex issues?
>>5766288
Yeah, the point being that GID might just be another variety no more different than some of the other conditions are from each-other.
>>5755892
>I simply said that the issues of transpeople are different than intersex people. They are not the same.
But senpai, the issues between different types of intersex are also dramatically different. The experience of someone with Klinefelter's or an XX male or XY female are totally different than someone born with visually ambiguous genitalia.
Issues with trans people typically begin in puberty, the same is true of lots of types of intersex which are not visible at birth but become apparent due to hormonal issues.
