As someone who isn't transgendered, I'm curious if you guys would still be willing to transition if you knew you'd be considered very unattractive?
I understand that some people who transition end up attractive, but from what I understand those are in the miniority.
I'm not trying to troll here, but would you guys rather stay the way you are or transition anyway even though you knew you'd never pass?
Picture unrelated
>>5734530
Even attractive trans women are unattractive.
Society don't like trans people, even if they're attractive, simply by being trans you become unattractive to people.
So yes, of course I'd still transition, because I already knew that I wouldn't be wanted majority of people, and society as a whole.
>>5734538
OP here, I mean I've seen a few examples of Trans people who I'd consider attractive.
I won't lie though, those are the exception. I'm not sure if you are unattractive simply by being trans though.
You are either find smb attractive or you don't, it's that simple. Sure, once people found out that, that person was trans that might deter that person from dating said trans person, but it wouldn't change the fact that they were attracted to them, at least initially.
My opinion probably matter very little here, especially since I bring nothing new to the table, but while I'd definitely hold a trans person to a way higher standard, both in terms of personality and how attractive I thought they were, I'd never rule it out entirely.
Again not trying to be an ass here, just trying to understand the trans community and maybe share my opinion.
I would probably just killed myself if I turned out to be a megahon.
>>5734538
Also I noticed that you said only Trans women are considered unattractive.
Do you think there is a double standard for trans men?
>>5734578
Attractive has a lot of meanings, but for this one I'm talking about relationship attractive... Which I assume you talk about too, since that's kind of what matters.
Being attractive, but completely alone, isn't worth much.
>>5734588
There is a double standard in that people just ignore trans men altogether.
The thing is, it's a lot easier for HRT to "succeed" for trans men, though. Unless he gets fat, he will look like a man, regardless of how bad his starting point was.
Now for transwomen... the later she starts the threatment, the worse the results will be. If she doesn't look like a girl to begin with, she WILL look mannish as hell in the end. It's just more difficult in general.
And of course, being either a man/woman who doesn't look the part will take a serious toll on your attractiveness, unless the person looking at you happens to have this precise fetish.
>>5734530
I transitioned being told I'd be unattractive, obvious and that no man would ever want me by one of my parents.
It ended up turning out wrong, but it's not like it's a rare thing to be told when coming out.
>>5734632
I can definitely understand this being the case.
I'm in a dilemma though, and maybe you can help me out, while I support transgendered people, I'm always very skeptical of parents who start treating their children as trans before puberty.
From what you are saying though it seems as if a MtF trans person to truly pass he'd have to start taking hormones in his early teens (?).
Soo at what point should a person be allowed to start transitioning, in my opinion at the very least, these things should wait until well into puberty, but I'd still appreciate to hear what you guys think.
>>5734677
Or rather she.
Not trying to be an asshole here, but truly I don't have any contact with transgendered people in my life so excuse me for that.
>>5734632
Stop with the "trans men always pass" meme.
Trans men are basically as screwed as trans women, only that them failing at passing doesn't look as bad.
>>5734677
Your logic is failing.
If it's ok to wait, and let trans children go through the wrong puberty, why is it not ok to give cross sex hormones to cis children, to give them a puberty of the other sex?
>>5734770
>cause girly guys are fine, while manly woman are not, its a fact
It's still not passing, and they won't be taken for a man. Beard might help a little, but they're gonna be taken for men, at best, a 12 year old boy when they're actually 40.
>>5734738
OP here.
Uhmm, because taking hormones can make you infertile? That's a big deal.
>>5734793
bad argument because it's subjective. i don't care about being fertile if i don't even feel comfortable enough with my body to have sex and would likely kill myself.
>>5734793
And how exactly are these trans kids going to be fertile when they actually start HRT? They'll never be fertile and bear children.
If you can't justify putting cis kids through the wrong puberty, then you can't justify putting trans kids through the wrong puberty.
Logic really isn't your strong point.
>>5734793
Oh, and I'm assuming you're against stuff like cancer treatment for children too, since it could lead to infertility.
Logical REALLY isn't your strong suit.
>>5734809
No, but if you want to transition as an adult you are willing to accept the consequences, right?
Some people value having their own biological children. Having the choice of having a biological child of your own taken away from you as a child seems like a big deal to me.
I don't judge people who choose to adopt, but let's say someone wanted biological children of their own, but as a pre-teen they took hormones when they later found out they weren't trans.
What logic am I missing here?
If we knew a 100% that a pre-teen child was trans, I wouldn't be against Hormones, but if we don't know for sure, should we really take the chance any possibly ruin that person's life when they grow up to be adults?
I really don't see any of my faulty logic.
>>5734530
>would still be willing to transition if you knew you'd be considered very unattractive?
I know I'm not going to be considered attractive, I'm still transitioning; I don't really have much choice if I want to not be totally miserable, being an ugly unpassing boy with boobs seriously is the least bad option available to me.
>>5734835
>I don't judge people who choose to adopt, but let's say someone wanted biological children of their own, but as a pre-teen they took hormones when they later found out they weren't trans.
Shouldn't the people who lie about being something they aren't be responsible for their own decisions, and not the ones who don't lie?
>If we knew a 100% that a pre-teen child was trans, I wouldn't be against Hormones, but if we don't know for sure, should we really take the chance any possibly ruin that person's life when they grow up to be adults?
So you think the life of a cis kid is far more worth than the life of a trans kid.
Ok, we get it, you don't think trans people deserve to live, or at least not if it's an inconvenience for cis people.
You're a terrible person, and a bigot. You saying that "you're not trying to be rude" doesn't change anything, what you believe and express is what you are, not what you claim you are.
I told myself if I didn't look at least alright and somewhat passable by a year on hormone I'd kill myself. Transitioning is the last thing I got before this dysphoria takes me over completely. So far it seems like I'm doing ok at 7 months.
>>5734835
you have lots of misconceptions.
pre-teens don't get hormones. why would they? they aren't in puberty yet. after puberty it is highly unlikely for gender dysphoria to vanish.
the choice isn't taken from trans kids. they want to transition. otherwise they wouldn't do it.
having one cis person go through the wrong puberty because he/she wanted to transition is definitely worth it if 10 trans kids don't have to suffer from dysphoria but get to enjoy their childhood.
>>5734883
>after puberty
i meant in the early years of puberty.
>>5734819
Not if you don't know whether the child actually has cancer.
If you know he has cancer then I'd treat it.
If you thought he might have cancer, it depends on the odds of him having cancer and the mortality rate. Fertility is a very personal thing, it comes down to the person to decide if they are willing to live being infertile, it's by no means the end of the world for some people, but for others having your own children might just be the most important thing in the world.
I'm really being the unreasonable one here?
Neither of us here know how many of these kids who haven't reached puberty here will identify as the opposite gender in 10 years once they've finished puberty.
Does it really make me a transphobe for waiting for scientific research to determine these things?
Let's weigh the pros against the cons.
Either the kid grows up to be happy with his/her transition and we did right by the child and possibly made him/her pass better as an adult
Or
The kid grows up deciding that he was CIS, meaning that we've paradoxically made him/her more like the gender he doesn't identify like, while making him/her infertile.
I'm not saying the answer is clear cut, I'm just saying it's not a simple answer.
I was also asking at what point you guys thought a person really knew they were trans, but apparently that part of the question flew over most of you guys' heads.
>>5734883
>pre-teens don't get hormones. why would they?
Except they do, it's the aimed stage. Usually the puberty is delayed a couple of years or so, but it's still pre-puberty.
>having one cis person go through the wrong puberty because he/she wanted to transition is definitely worth it if 10 trans kids
Even a ratio of 1:1.1 is worth it, if you're going to be objective about it.
>>5734892
>Fertility is a very personal thing, it comes down to the person to decide if they are willing to live being infertile, it's by no means the end of the world for some people, but for others having your own children might just be the most important thing in the world.
You're a sick fuck.
Do you keep your children unconscious while you wait for them to become 18?
That's fucking disturbing, I hope somebody calls the cops on you.
>>5734893
>Except they do, it's the aimed stage. Usually the puberty is delayed a couple of years or so, but it's still pre-puberty.
pre-teens isn't the same as pre-puberty now, is it?
>>5734892
>The kid grows up deciding that he was CIS, meaning that we've paradoxically made him/her more like the gender he doesn't identify like, while making him/her infertile.
Then maybe he shouldn't have said he was trans?
It's not that fucking hard.
If they lie about it, it's their own fucking fault. You don't punish innocent people because there are bad people doing bad things.
>>5734892
>I'm really being the unreasonable one here?
yes, because your holding back science. inform yourself before you make uneducated opinions. if you go for scientific arguments you should have read up on studies already because they exist already. and they tend to disagree with you.
>>5734864
God, no.
I'm just saying that WE really don't know enough to make these judgements.
What if only 10% of those children end up trans, were you still in the right?
What if 90% of those children end up trans, was I still right?
A person can still transition later in his life or later in his teens, but you really can't become fertile once you've become infertile.
Again I'm not saying that people shouldn't be trans, I'm asking at what point we are certain enough that the person actually is trans that we are willing to take the risk.
This isn't me valuing one thing over the other, this is me trying to not intervene in lives of people who are not necessarily adults UNLESS necessary AND unless we are know without a shadow of a doubt.
Okay, I'm going to GTFO, it's clear that you guys a 100% disagree with me.
I'm going to make myself a steak, forget this ever happened and avoid returning to this thread again.
I guess I was attractive before as a guy but I was such a depressed mess, taking anti depressants and basically being a zonked zombie.
I had absolutely no quality of life and was planning to kill myself.
Transition has made things better, but I know I will probably never be seen as attractive, and of course I would like to be (who wouldn't?) but it wasn't my reason for transitioning.
I was going to die alone as a guy but at least I'll probably die alone as a woman a bit happier.
>>5734936
>Okay, I'm going to GTFO, it's clear that you guys a 100% disagree with me.
no, the medical community and science disagrees with you. we only confront you about it.
>>5734936
>I'm just saying that WE really don't know enough to make these judgements.
We do know.
>What if only 10% of those children end up trans
They don't.
>What if 90% of those children end up trans, was I still right?
They do, or maybe more... But why would you be right in this case? You're against trans people transitioning.
>A person can still transition later in his life or later in his teens, but you really can't become fertile once you've become infertile.
Yes, with a crippled life, and will commit suicide after a few years. Oh how great, totally an acceptable approach.
Why don't we wait until everything is fucking shit, don't treat anyone until their illness has reach a stage where it's completely permanent, and severely affecting their life permanently.
Fucking great idea.
>This isn't me valuing one thing over the other
It is, you value cis kids infinitely much more than trans kids.
>>5734900
>>5734910
I'm talking ages 0-12 here, what the fuck do you people not understand.
If you guys seriously think any child below 12 is able of making permanent decisions that would impact their later lives, you are crazy.
Your gender identity isn't even fully developed at those ages.
Okay, I get it I'll GTFO, because I'm apparently a horrible person.
You know what I've spend time on most boards of 4chan, and /pol/ and /b/ have been pretty toxic, but to be honest, this has been the worst experience thus far.
>>5734957
>If you guys seriously think any child below 12 is able of making permanent decisions that would impact their later lives, you are crazy.
So the parents should be allowed to decide for the kid that it must die, and so we should kill the child, because the parent made that decision. The child isn't old enough to say anything against it, so it has to die.
Lovely.
>Your gender identity isn't even fully developed at those ages.
It's developed at 4.
>Okay, I get it I'll GTFO, because I'm apparently a horrible person.
And you're trying to deny it... Yep, you're the worst person.
>>5734957
what about models who started round that age, and not just Andreja, ones like Jackie Green or thatDutch from Next Top Model? they seem to tweet being happy and such.
>>5734957
>and /pol/ and /b/ have been pretty toxic, but to be honest, this has been the worst experience thus far.
You're really, really dumb.
You have views that go with /pol/, which means you'll not really be against what /pol/ says.
You're also as sensitive and whiny as /pol/ users, so obviously you're gonna take it as the worlds end when you don't have people agreeing with your lunacy.
>>5734957
>because I'm apparently a horrible person.
yes. not because you hold these views but because you are adamant about them even after being repeatedly told that you don't know shit about the subject and just run away crying when confronted with other views.
>>5734953
Look, it appears I really can't help myself soo IF we do know.
Give me scientific sources, I might not have everyday dealings with trans people, but I do as fuck take science seriously and I consider myself scientifically minded.
I have, yet to read a conclusive study on children and transgender. Point me to peer reviewed studies of Trans children following through into their adulthood and make sure it's peer reviewed and I'll read those studies.
>It is, you value cis kids infinitely much more than trans kids.
Also in my very humble opinion, I'd rather passively fuck up smb's life by inactivity than actively by my own actions, it has very little to do with being CIS or Trans.
>>5734998
Give it a few years, maybe 10. I'm sure it'll catch on and gain more traction for social experimentaiton
>>5734998
>Point me to peer reviewed studies of Trans children following through into their adulthood and make sure it's peer reviewed and I'll read those studies.
No.
Find it yourself.
>Also in my very humble opinion, I'd rather passively fuck up smb's life by inactivity than actively by my own actions
Refraining from taking action is to actively fuck something up, because you actively made the choice to do nothing when you were presented with the situation.
>>5734998
>Trans children following through into their adulthood and make sure it's peer reviewed and I'll read those studies.
Wait, what?
Why to adulthood? Can't they just transition back in adulthood?
Now you're making no sense.
>>5734998
>but I do as fuck take science seriously and I consider myself scientifically minded.
which is why you formed your opinion prior to having read any study or being involved with the subject in your daily life. makes sense...
>>5735031
Thats how science works anon.
>>5734998
by denying a trans kid the chance to start puberty blockers (and btw, it's not like you can wakeup one day rummage through the cupboard and casually take them) isnt that actively fucking them up
>>5734530
When I transitioned I made a deal with myself that if I didn't pass by the 2 year mark I'd kill myself. I don't know how unpassing trans people don't kill themselves. That sounds like hell
I'm going to kill myself if I don't look moderately attractive and normal
>>5735092
By telling myself ffs will save me
>>5734530
Yes. I would be perfectly alright being an ugly cis woman.
Tho I'd like to be attractive.
OP here, back from my steak and a good nights sleep and hopefully this doesn't end as badly as it did yesterday.
>>5735017
>>5735022
>>5735031
>>5735040
>>5735073
None of you have actually pointed to any evidence and made statements, I haven't made any such claims, I don't claim to know, I merely think that since the transgender issue has only recently come into the spotlight, more research needs to be done.
I some research myself, and it's very inconclusive, there's a lot of pseudo-science involving the social sciences when it comes to the subject, soo it's really hard to dig out valid stuff on the subject.
To my knowledge no study with large numbers of participants and over a long period of time has been conducted on the subject, and how could it have when the entire trans issue was repressed for soo long.
To me it seems as if some of you guys are the ones who are biased, yeah I understand you want things to move along swiftly and the world to change as soon as possible, but I'm sorry that's just not how things work.
For the last time I've been trying to find those illusive studies and I simply can't find them and I very much doubt they exist, yet as it would take years to conduct them.
Again, if it does exist I'd love to read it and judge it's validity.
On a side note, I did ask you guys to tell me at what point you thought you a person knew if they were trans or not, and without either sharing personal experience, which is anecdotal, but I'd still love to hear it, or actually citing something you went to calling me an asshole.
Look, this might be news to you guys, but somebody who isn't trans doesn't spend his days and nights thinking, concerning and reading about these things.
>>5734530
i think literally every trans person on this website transitioned believing they were going to be a disgusting monster 6'4" linebacker 40 inch shouldered hairy gorilla hulk forever
so yes, we all would, we all did
>>5736705
This^
I think this is what most trans girls tell themselves so they don't just give up and commit suicide.
>>5734530
>I'm curious if you guys would still be willing to transition if you knew you'd be considered very unattractive?
I did and regret it.
Now if I could be a real woman but be ugly then yes I would do that because at least I'd be a real woman. Being an ugly trans woman is far worse then being an ugly cis woman.
>>5738343
http://pastebin.com/h1vLPxyV
here, it's in the OP of the mtf general. you'll need to scroll down a little. can't find the other collection there was some time ago. maybe someone else can provide.
>and it's very inconclusive
how? if you can post the contradicting studies i'll look through them.
trans people have existed throughout history and there needs to be yet a study that shows it can be healed without transitioning or disappears after puberty has started. no, the pimozide study with one (likely) shizophrenic patient isn't valid. also that thing about cis kids being harmed by transitioning needs to be proven first before even speculating about it. i haven't heard of a significant amount of cis kids that were able to slip through the hoops and regret transitioning after permanent body changes were done. you now realize that transitioning is a long and continous process that can be interrupted at any time.
the world changed already to our benefit, you're behind the times. at least medically speaking.
it depends. some report to know since they were very young. some realize it in their teens, some later. i personally have realized it with 21 but i was terrified of anyone thinking i was girly (i'm mtf) for as long as i can remember so it's very likely that i repressed it before i can even remember.
>Look, this might be news to you guys, but somebody who isn't trans doesn't spend his days and nights thinking, concerning and reading about these things.
then why are you here? you're exaggerating btw as you didn't know a single thing besides myths like pre-teens transitioning. but i am glad that you at least try so let's forget that. do you now know how the transition process is for kids?
>>5738363
>healed
*treated
>>5738363
I've skimmed through some of those studies, and most of it is about brain scans, which isn't news to me.
Unless you are willing to mandate brain scans for pre-teen children considering hormone therapy, which I wouldn't be oppose.
Does that seem reasonable to you? I mean I think we can agree that it's better to be certain than sorry when it comes to children.
As for being "behind the times", It's really not a subject of science I concern myself too, much I spend most of my time reading up either Technology or Astronomy as if I find these two subjects either more interesting or more relevant to my own life.
>>5738473
Will try to read some more of it, but it's a long list, I seriously doubt I'll get through it.
>>5738473
>pre-teen children considering hormone therapy
fuck off if you don't bother to read my post.
>>5734530
You need to understand that I'm doing this for myself, not others. So I don't really care whether others think I'm attractive so long as I can be happy with my own body.
That said, for me to like myself I want at least to be passable.
>>5734530
Holy shit op, this is the hardest I've ever seen someone brigaded against, jesus. I swear that /lgbt/ is not normally like this, I think you're just being attacked by some butthurt hons or something.
Anyways, IIRC there was one study done on "gender-deviant children" that basically said that 50%+ of children end up growing up normally, but the catch was that the study was only done to kids under the age of 12, and general knowledge is that once you're trans after puberty, you're generally trans for life. The only exception is detransitioners, who are like 1-5% percent of all trans people (That's like 0.01% of the population or something) and generally make a big deal of their "detransition" and sell out to TERFs or anti-transgender activists and such. You can find some studies in the mtf general and stuff, but if you want some more studies, you can look here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/edit?pli=1#gid=1074721744
Sorry for the brigading, I'm not even sure these posters are from /lgbt/, but whatever
>>5734530
Look at me, mtf, how could I not be lmao
like sure, I'm insecure sometimes but I doubt anything will go wrong when I start
>>5734677
Short introduction https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rzbtSeVZeEE
Longer story https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0tqil7Audws
They should start before puberty, and even the doctors who treat trans kids think starting estrogen or testosterone at 10 or 12 to do that is too early. That's the importance of the puberty blockers, so they don't start them when it's possible some aren't really sure in their pre-teen years. There are some exceptions on a case by case basis.
The importance of starting before puberty can start is demonstrated by this photo. These are two natal male identical twins at the age of 14. The girl has only been treated with puberty blockers in this picture. You can already see based on her brother how bad it would be if she had gone on to 15 or 16 without any treatment.
>>5738955
Like I said, the puberty blockers are given so that natural puberty is held back so that medical transition doesn't have to start at 10 or 12, but at 16 when the child is more mature and capable of making the decision. You little retard.
>>5738955
Lol nah, I'm perfect, even though ive always hated the chin.
>>5734530
I'm already fuck ugly, might as well be happy too.
>>5738343
https://www.ted.com/talks/norman_spack_how_i_help_transgender_teens_become_who_they_want_to_be
For example, not an actual science paper, but I doubt you'd actually read a science paper.
>To me it seems as if some of you guys are the ones who are biased, yeah I understand you want things to move along swiftly and the world to change as soon as possible, but I'm sorry that's just not how things work.
As long as there's are more accurate diagnoses than inaccurate ones, it's time to move on. And we know that there are more accurate ones than false ones... Testing such a thing would be incredibly inhumane too, to literally kill children just because you want to be "sure".
>Look, this might be news to you guys, but somebody who isn't trans doesn't spend his days and nights thinking, concerning and reading about these things.
Then why did you make this thread?
>>5738593
If I remember right, that was for all gender non-conforming kids, and all kids who claimed that they had thought about being the other sex.
>>5738731
>Your going to have a bad time.jpg
Im sorry but i don't think you should just stop at this point.
