If TERFs, gendercrits and radfems want gender abolished then women's spaces shouldn't be allowed to exist because they arbitrarily segregate people based on their biological sex. They're unwittingly reinforcing sexism and arbitrary gender roles by forcing others out of certain spaces or into certain labels that hinge on their bio sex.
>but muh raep victims and womyn's shelters
So what? If some bitch gets triggered by seeing a male, then that means she's either delirious or a blatant sexist, how is this the male's fault? And the very idea of women only shelters is sexist and misandrist. Shelters should be made to accommodate everyone regardless of bio sex. All lives matter! Everyone should be treated equally.
Radfems, including the subset of terfs, do not want gender abolished.
Do you even understand the different between second and third wave feminism? It's these bullshit sjws who want gender abolished and shit.
I'm not either personally, I think they're both imbecilic and feminism has been downhill since Wollstonecraft tbqh.
But women's shelters are needed, there is a demand for them. There are also men's shelters like YMCA. These places function better when divided by gender to give the right care to the right demographics and leave women feeling safe and actually being safe.
>>5803719
My experience with women only spaces as an obvious dude is that they are either A) not safe and ment to bully and exclude, especially transwomen, with "safety" just a thin veener or B) not really 'women only', but more like 'for women, mostly but dudes are welcome too just don't be dicks please'. I've been to plenty of Bs, and people are usually chill and welcoming.
>feminism has been downhill since Goldman and de Cleyre
fixed that for you
>>5803719
TERFs don't call themselves TERFs, they call themselves gender-critical. Originally that meant they were in favor of abolishing gender roles, as they were something that holds women back. However, now they view gender as a "loophole" which allows men to invade female spaces. They don't realize that discriminating based on sex is in fact enforcing the gender roles they originally wanted to abolish.
>>5804179
It's funny because they readily accept that the sexes are markedly different behaviorally and physically in order to pick on trans people, but refuse to admit that the sexes are markedly different behaviorally and physically when trans people use actual science to back up their stance.
Science doesn't mean much to TERFs besides as a tool to use politically if they can quote-mine hard enough. They don't register that trans people are trans regardless of whether politics exist to represent them or not because their entire world consists of nothing but gender politics. They're mentally rigid, and can't fathom nor accept an existence that can happen outside of their current philosophical paradigm.
>>5804290
This so much. They'll go on and on about how many trans women work in male dominated STEM fields and how this means they're male brained and not true womyn, but they'll easily turn around and deny the existence of sexual dimorphism in brain structures and label the very notion sexist because it can be used to give validity to a trans woman's condition.
>>5803522
>If TERFs, gendercrits and radfems want gender abolished then women's spaces shouldn't be allowed to exist because they arbitrarily segregate people based on their biological sex.
Seeing as there is a huge mix-up with all the definitions, I will clarify. I want all the social aspect abolished, as in, men can wear pink, women can watch football. Both should be judged on their ability and not their sex.
However, I think segregated female and male spaces should exist, because it's ridiculous and unscientific to pretend males and females aren't biologically different.
>>5804390
>They'll go on and on about how many trans women work in male dominated STEM fields and how this means they're male brained and not true womyn
No, trans women have an advantage in male dominated STEM fields not because they are male brained, but because they have the socialization that fosters their curiosity in technology and the sciences.
How many trannies gamers do you know vs. how many cis female gamers do you know? It's far less socially acceptable for cis girls to tinker with technology.
>>5804419
>However, I think segregated female and male spaces should exist, because it's ridiculous and unscientific to pretend males and females aren't biologically different.
The only place one's bio sex should matter is either with a medical professional or with a sexual partner. Everything else is segregation based on bio sex which inevitably results in rigid gender roles and sexism. Bathrooms should be unisex and every shelter should accommodate all sexes. The only exception I can see is with prisons but only because of the risk of violence with actually violent people.
But none of this matters. As long as males and females are markedly different, the rigid social aspects of gender will never be truly abolished. Men in dresses will always be seen by society as ugly, revolting and perverted while manly women will always be seen as a cute joke with no real authority.
>>5804431
>No, trans women have an advantage in male dominated STEM fields not because they are male brained, but because they have the socialization that fosters their curiosity in technology and the sciences.
And? Why should this matter? It's not their fault that they were raised as male and nudged towards male dominated interests. If that happened to a cis woman they'd say she's empowered and fighting the patriarchy, but when it happens to trans women it means that they're privileged and not true women. Then when trans girls are actually accepted by their families and raised like most girls are, we call it sexist and child abuse.
>>5803522
This is a remarkably poor critique of remarkably easy targets.
You're basically just saying "Oh yeah? Well if you oppose gender, then how can you oppose gender?" Like you're literally pointing out how these groups successfully draw an objective line between gender and sex and follow their definition consistently.
>>5804504
>And? Why should this matter? It's not their fault that they were raised as male and nudged towards male dominated interests.
It's never a male's fault that they were raised as males. The issue is not here to put down males and male interests, the focus here is to encourage and support females who did not have a male upbringing.
>Bathrooms should be unisex and every shelter should accommodate all sexes.
No, bathrooms and shelters are segregated because males are stronger and their socialization makes them more violent on average. This is an issue that males need to address. The answer is teaching males to stop being violent against gender non-conforming males, not having males co-opting female spaces.
>>5804523
By supporting sex-based segregation, they're basically supporting the concept of gender (i.e. social double standards based on one being male or female).
>>5804523
>Like you're literally pointing out how these groups successfully draw an objective line between gender and sex and follow their definition consistently.
Do you mean inconsistently? OP is using terminologies inconsistently. Either that, or OP doesn't know the difference between sex and gender.
>>5804575
They draw a distinction between sex and gender. They think sex is biological while gender is a social construct. For example, the idea that boys like blue and girls like pink is gender and a socially constructed stereotype/idea. However, different reproductive organs are not socially constructed. Those are biological facts.
>>5804504
>Then when trans girls are actually accepted by their families and raised like most girls are, we call it sexist and child abuse.
The thing is, aside from biological necessities, there is no reason why girls and boys should be raised differently, even though they are. Why should girls and boys be raised differently?
Also the "child abuse" part is mainly concern that HRT is often an irreversible process and some children are exposed too soon.
A lot of Men's Rights rights activists and Anti-Feminists do this annoying thing where they compare women to men as though Feminism should be about equality or that it is, or that it is wrong for us to be treated differently. Women on the whole don't want to be treated like men. They claim the title of Feminist for any goodies, but they really don't want to have to put up with the same shit men do. Feminists on the whole don't want to be equal, or to abolish gender roles, because then they wouldn't be Feminists. Feminism is about the preservation and further accumulation of power and privilege for women.
>>5804560
>The answer is teaching males to stop being violent against gender non-conforming males, not having males co-opting female spaces.
Lol. Assuming we could do that, then what's stopping us from teaching males to not be violent against females? If we were to get them to not be so violent against non-conforming males, then surely we could get them to stop attacking and raping females. At that point, sex segregated spaces would be unnecessary don't you think? But isn't this all sexist? Assuming that most men are violent and strong bulks of meat and women are weak and vulnerable boobs on a stick that need added protection? Do you see how far this can go? You could easily use this stance to justify that women shouldn't be in the military, or take on physically demanding labor or STEM related fields because they're raised to be useless baby factories with no intellect. Nice jab at trans women tho.
>>5804591
Yes, but they're still insisting on building totally different social standards around the objective fact of genitals, which is exactly how gender roles got started in the first place.
>>5804618
There really shouldn't be a difference between how boys and girls are raised, but unfortunately in our society there is. And because of that a girl raised "as a boy" is going to be at a disadvantage when it comes to fitting in compared to other girls.
Women shouldn't be allowed to exist. Who /gynocide/ here?
>>5804591
This, pretty much. They believe that sexual dimorphism exists almost everywhere in the human body except the brain, and because it supposedly doesn't exist in the brain all ideas of gender are completely socially constructed and physical sexual development has zero impact on gendered behavior.
>>5804661
Literally no one, male or female wants the BAD parts of being male. However, if everyone is equal when it comes to the good parts, being equal when it comes to the bad parts is a natural consequence.
>>5804678
I kind of feel the same way about men desu. Or at least that we need to abandon traditional notions of masculinity and reinvent what it means to be a man.
>>5804666
>what's stopping us from teaching males to not be violent against females?
Nothing. It's a work in progress. But gender non-conforming males should work towards that, instead of attacking females for being sensibly concerned. "Self-identifying" is a bad idea.
>isn't this all sexist?
No, acknowledging that male socialization encourages males to behave violently is no more sexist than acknowledging that female socialization puts females at a disadvantage in technical fields like STEM. Both are terrible and needs to be stopped. However, until we reach that point where male socialization no longer encourages men and boys to behave violently, sex-segregated bathrooms and shelters are necessary. Similarly, until we reach a point where female socialization no longer puts females at a disadvantage in technical fields like STEM, outreach programs and support networks should focus on females.
>You could easily use this stance to justify that women shouldn't be in the military, or take on physically demanding labor or STEM related fields because they're raised to be useless baby factories with no intellect.
How? I am advocating for the end of these gendered socializations, that is to say, anti-gender. Hopefully, one day, sex-segregated bathrooms and shelter will no longer be necessary because males are not socialized to be violent (and the statistics reflect that).
>>5804693
There's not a single thing about you lot valuable enough to be preserved. Men are the thinkers, the builders, the explorers, while women are walking failures with tits and their only purpose in the universe is shitting out children. Once artificial womb is invented, you'll no longer be needed and it's game over for women.
>>5804718
We are biologically wired to be violent.
>>5804673
>Yes, but they're still insisting on building totally different social standards around the objective fact of genitals, which is exactly how gender roles got started in the first place.
They insist on rectifying the situation, and more importantly, protecting females against violent male socialization.
>There really shouldn't be a difference between how boys and girls are raised, but unfortunately in our society there is.
The appropriate response is not to further feed into this system of sexism just so gender non-conforming females can "fit in". The correct response is to challenge the system and build a better one.
>>5804689
Pretty much this. TERFs want trans women to keep all of the bad parts of being a man and have none of the good parts of being a woman... because fuck em that's why. They want to grind them down until they disappear and stop causing their political movement so much cognitive dissonance. It doesn't matter how they disappear though, which is why TERFs have proudly and publicly taken an active part in doxxing and harassing trans people and ignoring pretty much all medical analysis of their issues that doesn't reflect negatively upon them. In the U.S. they even played a major part in removing trans healthcare from government healthcare services like medicaid, medicare, VA care, etc. causing countless deaths over the course of 30 years. Before that, SRS, hormones, therapy, etc. were all covered. Now trans people are only just getting that coverage back piecemeal, regardless of the international medical documentation on their issues that's existed for almost 90 years now and has only continued to accrue more data since.
>>5804726
Perhaps so, but I will wait for the science.
Furthermore, if it is true, then there is even more reason to segregate the sexes in vulnerable places such as bathrooms and shelters.
>>5804757
>we need to protect women
Nah, you deserve to get rekt if you can't defend yourself.
>>5804747
>TERFs want trans women to keep all of the bad parts of being a man and have none of the good parts of being a woman
As in, factually pointing out that trans "women" did grow up with male socialization and are biologically male?
>>5804720
Men are also responsible for the majority of violent crime, and have additionally historically refused to let women even try to support themselves. Not to mention that the whole male gender norm of having to be violent/aggressive for no reason just to prove you're not a wimp is retarded and has no reason to exist in a civilized society.
>>5804618
>The thing is, aside from biological necessities, there is no reason why girls and boys should be raised differently, even though they are. Why should girls and boys be raised differently?
Because they're different? Boys can't use the girls restroom because reasons and vice versa. Girls can't play rough sports with boys because they're weak and timid while boys are rough and aggressive, boys can't wear makeup and dresses in public because it's considered obscene, etc. All of these factors combined will inevitably result in raising the kids differently.
>inb4 muh spaces
Segregated bathrooms and such are not a biological necessity. A girl won't die if a boy used the wrong bathroom. The only real explanation for their use is one founded on prudish and patriarchal attitudes rooted in sexism. Your physical strength should have no influence on what toilet you're allowed to sit on.
>Also the "child abuse" part is mainly concern that HRT is often an irreversible process and some children are exposed too soon.
They only use puberty blockers on children, hormone therapy isn't considered until at least mid or late puberty. People don't understand that the whole reason they use those drugs is because it buys the kid time to figure themselves out without risking having their life ruined by going through the wrong puberty. If it's child abuse for a kid to go through the wrong puberty without their consent (which it is) then a lot of trans people have some court cases to settle against their parents.
>>5804769
>Nah, you deserve to get rekt if you can't defend yourself.
That's not a very good evolutionary strategy though, it leaves no room for specialization.
>>5804771
It's more the idea that such factors are relevant in every situation, moreso than the fact that they actually live full-time as women.
Socialization is next to irrelevant and 90% of behavior is innate.
Also, trannies are traitors to their sex fetishizing about becoming a lesser creature.
And women are just fecal matter in human form.
>>5804769
>Nah, you deserve to get rekt if you can't defend yourself.
>that edge
Unfortunately, that's now how it works, or you wouldn't have made it to 14.
>>5804775
Who gives a fuck, violence drives us forward. Idling around and gossipping about celebs is the evolutionary equivalent of dingleberry nibbling.
>>5804777
>Because they're different? Boys can't use the girls restroom because reasons and vice versa. Girls can't play rough sports with boys because they're weak and timid while boys are rough and aggressive, boys can't wear makeup and dresses in public because it's considered obscene, etc. All of these factors combined will inevitably result in raising the kids differently.
Pretty much none of those are concrete reasons though, they're all based on social norms.
>>5804775
>a woman talking about civilization
It's a thing men created and being civilized surely isn't a synonym of being a cuckold.
>>5804802
>Who gives a fuck, violence drives us forward
It doesn't though. Being able to use violence when neccessary is beneficial, but male culture is all about UNNECESSARY violence. If you're not willing to punch someone in the face for calling you names, you're a failed male.
>Idling around and gossipping about celebs is the evolutionary equivalent of dingleberry nibbling.
I have no idea what a dingleberry is or what connotation nibbling one would have. But it's almost certain that gossip has some evolutionary purpose, or people wouldn't be so likely to do it in the first place.
>>5804810
I'm not a woman. And people who call others "cuckolds" unironically are just projecting their own insecurities. And in any case, the identity of a person talking about something is irrelevant, if you want to be logical you should judge the argument by its own merits, not by who's making it
>>5804777
None of those are actual reasons. Young prepubescent children usually use whichever bathroom their parents are using. I don't think children should wear make up because it unnecessarily sexualizes them and puts pressure on their body image, but there's no reason why boys shouldn't be allowed to wear dresses.
>Segregated bathrooms and such are not a biological necessity.
No, but it is a social necessity due to the way males are socialized to be statistically more violent.
>They only use puberty blockers on children, hormone therapy isn't considered until at least mid or late puberty.
I'm well aware, but there has been cases of children given HRT too soon. HRT is a form of body modification and there is concern that young people should not be granted access until 18, in the same way that teenagers are not allowed to make life-altering decisions.
>wrong puberty
A biologically driven puberty is not "wrong". Tampering with your biology is wrong, but I respect grown adults' right to do whatever they want with their bodies.
Let's just kill all women. No women, no bathroom segregation. Problem solved.
>>5804784
>It's more the idea that such factors are relevant in every situation, moreso than the fact that they actually live full-time as women.
The idea is that support networks and spaces for women exist on the ground of their sex and their socialization, both of which trans women lack.
>>5804718
Even if we are able to successfully rectify these issues,(which we likely never will in our lifetime)trans women will still want to be included in women's spaces and be identified as women.
And why attack trans women because they were raised as males? Most trans women I know are extremely submissive, more so than the average cis women, I'd say. Some were even attacked by cis women because someone outed them as trans. Trans women react differently to male socialization and do not benefit from it in the way males do. In fact, it likely worsens their mental health. Attacking them and using that aspect of their upbringing to wrongly label them as an inherent threat to women while also invalidating their identities as women will only make the situation worse.
>>5804826
Women have no merits.
>>5804843
It's too bad your predecessors didn't have this idea, or we would have been able to avoid you.
>>5804777
>Boys can't use the girls restroom because reasons and vice versa.
"Because reasons"? As in, you can't even think of an actual good reason?
>Girls can't play rough sports with boys because they're weak and timid while boys are rough and aggressive
That's not true of every individual, and that sort of attitude hurts gender non-conforming people. Not to mention that the physical differences between boys and girls are much less pronounced before puberty.
>boys can't wear makeup and dresses in public because it's considered obscene
Society considers it obscene, but there's really no objective reason why it should be considered obscene. It's just a remnant of the historical notion that boys and girls belong in completely separate worlds, coming together only for reproduction.
>>5804852
Merely claiming it doesn't make it true. And if you actually had an argument, you'd make it openly, rather than force me to try to pry it out of you.
>>5804850
>trans women will still want to be included in women's spaces and be identified as women
I sympathize with their feelings, but I am unwilling to compromise the safety of females by granting males access to female spaces.
No one is attacking anyone, but the facts remain that they are males and were raised as males. There are plenty of gender non-conforming males and they should be given a proper support network, just not one that comes at the cost of females.
>>5804859
Literally what evidence do you expect me to produce?
>PROVE THAT WOMEN HAVE NO MERIT
Alright, here's the extensive list of female achievements:
>>5804870
Are you retarded? Just because you don't know any doesn't mean they don't exist.
>Ada Lovelace
>Marie Curie
>Rosalind Franklin
to name a few
>>5804838
>A biologically driven puberty is not "wrong".
It is for transgender children. Transgender people that aren't treated before puberty have a 40-60% risk of suicide attempt. This is a well known fact that bigots love to use against us when they have an axe to grind.
>Tampering with your biology is wrong, but I respect grown adults' right to do whatever they want with their bodies.
>hurr durr it's not natural, therefore it's wrong
Do you also think that giving kids antibiotics, blood transfusions or organ transplants is wrong?
>>5804870
Burden of proof means that the one making the claim has to back it up. You claim that women have no merit, you have to back it up. Merely pointing out that you don't know of any successful women doesn't mean they don't exist.
>>5804878
>Lovelace
EVERY FUCKING TIME.
She did nothing, it was all Babbage.
>>5804882
>It is for transgender children. Transgender people that aren't treated before puberty have a 40-60% risk of suicide attempt.
[citation needed]
>Do you also think that giving kids antibiotics, blood transfusions or organ transplants is wrong?
Not if it treats a biological ailment, i.e. disease, exsanguination.
>>5804868
>mfw most women-only spaces I've been to are transaccepting
>mfw most women-only spaces I've been to are cool with dudes visiting too as long as they give a heads up
>mfw they are chill, comfy places and everyone gets along fine
>mfw you and your kind are just hateful bigots and your 'safety'-bullshit only makes sense if one accepts transwomen are a danger and it just baffles you that anyone would find that idea offensive because your heads are so far up your asses you can't even imagine what not being a bigot is like
>>5804894
Can't prove a negative, ladymess.
>>5804560
>males are stronger
Unless they take hrt.
>their socialization makes them more violent on average
Just like lesbians!
>>5804868
I already told you that their socialization affects them differently and that they're, on average, much less aggressive than males, and after jyears of HRT and other surgeries they are much weaker too. They are not the same as males, period. Your entire argument hinges on the sexist and misandrist notion that anyone with a penis and/or Y chromosome is an inherent threat to women's safety.
>>5804904
Why don't you just admit you don't actually know anything?
>>5804940
You're so incredibly stupid it hurts.
>>5804904
She was still a trained mathematician, which was uncommon for women in her time. And being a mere assistant next to Babbage is still a considerable accomplishment.
>>5804914
>Not if it treats a biological ailment, i.e. disease, exsanguination.
Gender dysphoria is a biological ailment as well.
>>5804917
Then you shouldn't have put it forward as a fact. Something unprovable cannot be reasonably regarded as true, objective fact.
>>5804915
>mfw most women are uncomfortable but afraid to speak up
>mfw they confide in me in private because they're too afraid to hurt male feelings
If you actually talk to them instead of talking over them, you would know what they really think. But it's probably better that you don't, they shouldn't be subjected to any more of your intrusive presence.
>>5804948
Prove that God doesn't exist.
>>5804957
Isn't it misogynistic to imply that all women feel the same way as you about trans people? It seems awfully similar to the whole "women don't really mean what they say" meme pushed by the MRA/PUA crowd.
>>5804914
>[citation needed]
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
>Not if it treats a biological ailment, i.e. disease, exsanguination.
Neurological disorders seem like a pretty bad biological ailment.
>>5804919
Bone density and body structure do not go away with HRT. Lesbians are socialized as females.
>>5804939
No two males are the same. There's no argument that would grant all trans women access to female spaces that would not include all males. Trans women need to respect female spaces.
>>5804948
>Gender dysphoria is a biological ailment as well.
No, it's a psychological one. They don't use lab tests to diagnose gender dysphoria.
>>5804967
I can't, but I wouldn't treat "God doesn't exist" as an objective fact, either.
>>5804868
Women's safety first!
Ban all men and lesbians from female spaces!
>>5804972
>No, it's a psychological one. They don't use lab tests to diagnose gender dysphoria.
It's neurological, which is still biological. The reason they don't use lab tests is that it's still too expensive to do to every patient at this point.
>>5804868
Aren't you just special.
And Jesus fuck the trannies ITT trying to pander to women make me cringe.
>>5804972
>Bone density and body structure do not go away with HRT
Muscles do, though.
>No two males are the same. There's no argument that would grant all trans women access to female spaces that would not include all males. Trans women need to respect female spaces.
By that same logic, there is no argument that would grant all cis women access to female spaces that would not put women at risk. Just because men tend to be violent and aggressive doesn't mean female abusers don't exist.
>>5804968
>Isn't it misogynistic to imply that all women feel the same way as you about trans people?
Not when you've actually spoken to large numbers of females who feel uncomfortable in "trans-accepting" female spaces. While some females may take no issue with males in female spaces, we should respect the females who are uncomfortable with males gaining access to spaces that was designed for female comfort.
>>5804969
>http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
Can you tell me which page? I'm not interested in reading an 18 page report.
>Neurological disorders seem like a pretty bad biological ailment.
Again, they don't use lab results to diagnose gender dysphoria.
>>5804957
>mfw males get invited and don't just show up
>mfw feminist political groups nominate and elect males as leaders and representatives
>mfw anyone who is anti-trans is treated as the asshole they are
>mfw those who are uncomfortable can and do speak up and are accomodated, but it's rare
>mfw people get along and don't fear each-other
>mfw socialism
>>5805006
>Again, they don't use lab results to diagnose gender dysphoria.
And that somehow means it's not real?
>>5804972
LOL
Way to show you have no idea what you are talking about.
Bone density DOES change on hrt to come in-line with other women and transwomen actually tend to have LESS testosterone than cis women and less bone density and muscle with it. Without that bone density and muscle there has been no solid explanation of how their bone structure actually gives them an advantage. The actual doctors say it's comparable to cis women with no significant advantage but people like you insist we ignore medicine and science and facts so we can humor your feelings to set medical policy and law by.
>>5803522
You've gone off the deep end. I, and the rest of the relevant world, have no idea or care about any of the things you've written here.
>>5805003
>Muscles do, though.
Castrated males still have a significant physical advantage over females. Personal accounts from female athletes paints a pretty convincing case.
>By that same logic, there is no argument that would grant all cis women access to female spaces that would not put women at risk. Just because men tend to be violent and aggressive doesn't mean female abusers don't exist.
No, but females are on average a lot less violent, and having someone who is physically closer to your size gives you a fairer fight in the rare chances of self-defense.
>>5804985
>The reason they don't use lab tests is that it's still too expensive to do to every patient at this point.
Not a good reason at all. If anything, this takes away from the legitimacy of gender dysphoria diagnoses. GRS and HRT dwarfs any possible testing costs and the effects of the treatment are often permanent. You don't give people chemotherapy without a proper cancer diagnoses. There's no reason why this should be any different.
>>5804972
>Lesbians are socialized as females.
That doesn't change them being statistically more violent.
In fact after transition modern transwomen have crime and violence rates in-line with average cis women so there's an even greater need to ban lesbians first, for the safety of women of course, lesbians should just make their own shelters :^)
>>5805046
>And that somehow means it's not real?
It shows that, as far as modern medicine is concerned, it's not biological.
>>5805011
>males don't care about female oppression
hardly surprising
>>5805051
No, after male puberty, trans women have higher bone density than females, and HRT allows them to maintain that.
>>5805064
>Castrated males still have a significant physical advantage over females. Personal accounts from female athletes paints a pretty convincing case.
"Personal accounts" have basically zero scientific weight. And considering that there is no biological reason why transitioned mtfs would have an advantage, I'm inclined to be skeptical of such claims until there's actual scientific studies.
>>5805080
>It shows that, as far as modern medicine is concerned, it's not biological.
No, it doesn't. Unless by "biological" you mean "genetic" (which is incredibly misleading).
>No, after male puberty, trans women have higher bone density than females, and HRT allows them to maintain that.
And why is bone density the deciding factor when they have LESS testosterone and less muscle than cis women?
>>5805072
>In fact after transition modern transwomen have crime and violence rates in-line with average cis women
The issue is that there is no concrete difference between trans "women" and males.
>>5805090
>"Personal accounts" have basically zero scientific weight.
It's the best we've got, considering the lack of data we have in this area
>>5805064
>Personal accounts from female athletes paints a pretty convincing case
Oh you mean the personal account of the person who previously said that trans women shouldn't compete but said she could beat "anyone" but then tried to back out of the fight and then actually WON kinda in contradiction to her point and later lost to another cis woman.
Such remarkable anecdotal evidence from a previously known bigot that totally overturns all the assessments and tests by actual doctors and proves transwomen are superhuman monsters who savagely beat innocent women and are way stronger regardless of what any real evidence says!
>>5805064
>No, but females are on average a lot less violent Besides those violent lesbians.
SAFE CIS STRAIGHT SPACES!!!!
PROTECT THE WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!!!
>>5805099
>No, it doesn't. Unless by "biological" you mean "genetic" (which is incredibly misleading).
By biological, I mean measurable through medical tests, the way conditions that warrants a medical treatments are.
>Why is bone density the deciding factor
It's not. The deciding factor is that trans women are males.
>>5805080
Hrt literally reduces bone density, you can stick your fingers in your ears and ignore reality all you want to suit your agenda but it doesn't change anything.
>>5805117
>Oh you mean the personal account of
No, I've heard stories from women in all sorts of different contact sports.
>>5805110
>It's the best we've got, considering the lack of data we have in this area
Except the data we do have indicates that there is no biological reason why trans women would be stronger than cis women.
>>5805130
>It's not. The deciding factor is that trans women are males.
That's something even MORE abstract and meaningless than bone density.
>>5804848
>The idea is that support networks and spaces for women exist on the ground of their sex and their socialization
The fallacy is how you stop defining sex the moment it hits the brain, contrary to existing neurological evidence, and how you act like growing up with dysphoria has absolutely no effect on socialization. Your opinion is purely a political stance at this point, one that was invented in the 70s with barely any actual research on the topic, and one not even rooted in the reality of human biology as we understand it today. Or, really, basic human decency. It's as if you believe a trans woman would pick up absolutely all of the socialization cis guys are subjected to and absolutely none of the socialization cis girls experience while magically possessing "male privilege" even though they fall well outside of acceptable physical and behavioral norms for what males are expected to be and are harshly policed and harassed over it for the majority of their lives.
It's silly to cut off and deny people who experience almost the same exact problems as you and carry the same label (woman) just because of some unfounded fear over how they were assigned at birth.
What about trans women getting out of an abusive relationship with a man seeking shelter at a womens' shelter, pretty much the reason those places were invented? What about a trans woman in a group therapy session with other women who were abused? Oh sorry, not womanly enough because of shit we can't even see that you maybe used to have on your body even though your official ID says female. But we'll accept the jacked, bearded trans guy with the buzzsaw voice because she's a reel womyn. Lol what a joke. It's like arguing with a cultist.
I'd never even use those services, because I wouldn't ever want to deal with judgmental harpies like this if I didn't have to, but their entire set of core, hard-line beliefs are based on outdated bullshit they cling to out of pure insecurity.
>>5805139
patently false. Estrogen do not reduce bone density. http://nof.org/files/nof/public/content/file/265/upload/98.pdf
page 6
>>5805110
>The issue is that there is no concrete difference between trans "women" and males.
Except what I just said that modern post-transition transwomen have violent crime rates in-line with average cis women instead of cis males. Testosterone and muscles generally below cis women and changing bone densities would also be another concrete difference no matter how much you want to ignore it.
Gee you sure like to ignore things that don't fit with your feels don't you?
Statistically the REAL violent threat in female safe spaces is lesbian women, are you just trying to scapegoat transwomen to distract from that?
>>5805149
>biological sex is meaningless
>>5805142
We have no data at all.
>>5805168
>The fallacy is how you stop defining sex the moment it hits the brain, contrary to existing neurological evidence
Actually, recent studies debunked that. Despite trans people's desire for "gendered brains" they simply don't exist.
>It's silly to cut off and deny people who experience almost the same exact problems
Do trans women struggle to get abortions? Do trans women have trouble accessing birth control? If not, they do not experience any of the same problems as me.
>What about trans women getting out of an abusive relationship with a man seeking shelter at a womens' shelter, pretty much the reason those places were invented?
Should gay males seeking shelter from an abusive relationship also be allowed at the women's shelter? As I've said, males need to build and find their own support network instead of trying to steal from females.
>I'd never even use those services
Thank you for respecting female boundaries.
>>5805232
>>biological sex is meaningless
Yes, if you don't define it specifically. Having XY chromosomes and a penis doesn't make you any stronger once you take testosterone away.
>Actually, recent studies debunked that. Despite trans people's desire for "gendered brains" they simply don't exist.
No, that study just means that outside of "brain sex", it's possible for men to have female psychological traits and vice versa.
>Do trans women struggle to get abortions? Do trans women have trouble accessing birth control? If not, they do not experience any of the same problems as me.
Those are the ONLY problems you experience?
>Should gay males seeking shelter from an abusive relationship also be allowed at the women's shelter? As I've said, males need to build and find their own support network instead of trying to steal from females.
No, because they're not women. Should trans people have to have their own support network? Going to the male shelters doesn't really make sense if they live and pass as women
>>5805178
>Except what I just said that modern post-transition transwomen have violent crime rates in-line with average cis women instead of cis males
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885#pone.0016885.s002
"male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime."
>>5804560
>>5804718
>No, bathrooms and shelters are segregated because males are stronger and their socialization makes them more violent on average
Castrated boys on estrogen are intersex, not male.
And they certainly wouldn't have the capacity to attack.
You're blaming something commited by a different group on another, that's intellectually lazy.
>>5805130
How? It isn't accurate from a biomedical standpoint if they've medically transitioned.
>>5805260
> this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.
Uh, you proved yourself wrong.
Transexuals after 1989 and control women are statistically identical according to the author.
>>5805250
>Yes, if you don't define it specifically. Having XY chromosomes and a penis doesn't make you any stronger once you take testosterone away.
Growing up with XY chromosome gives you a larger physique and stronger bones.
>No, that study just means that outside of "brain sex", it's possible for men to have female psychological traits and vice versa.
Outside of XY chromosomes in brain cells, it doesn't exist. Males and females can have masculine or feminine biological traits.
>Those are the ONLY problems you experience?
Those and a female upbringing.
>No, because they're not women.
Shelters are sex-segregated, not gender-segregated.
>Should trans people have to have their own support network?
Yes
>>5805286
>Outside of XY chromosomes in brain cells, it doesn't exist. Males and females can have masculine or feminine biological traits.
No, the one non-plastic area of the brain that controls gender identity is still there. The rest of the brain is just tendencies.
>Yes
The problem with that is that they're rare enough that it would be hard to have a decent support network. If you don't live in an urban area the nearest shelter is likely to be like 30 miles away.
>>5805130
It IS measurable for tests it's just that the tests are prohibitively expensive and the really certain ones can only be performed postmortem.
The diagnostic methods and treatment protocols are just so statistically effective at weeding out false positives that the actual doctors consider it completely acceptable as the best path to reduce harm and it's only people like you who think their feels overwrite science and medicine that disagree.
>>5805286
>XY chromosome
Jesus Christ, that's not how it works.
Chromosomes are structures that only exist for meiotic assortment, they aren't even present during the rest of the cell cycle. It's genes being expressed and that's mediated by stuff like hormones.Chromosomes aren't even what make nad sex. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18348162 http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
Look I apreciate that you're trying to use bio, and I'm sure we'vve got a lot of values in common, but if you're gonna do so, then take the time to read out the scientific literature, not tell us what you think it should be.
Why don't you study bio if you like it so much?
>>5805141
How conclusive!
>I totally know a guy who says it's true so that disproves all science and medicine that I disagree with, trust me
>>5805260
Well gee, who knew that a marginalized and widely hated minority with no support network whatsoever could possibly be at an increased risk for crime.
>male baby monkeys play with action figures, female baby monkeys play with dolls
>male monkeys are aggressive, female monkeys are calm and idle
Guess monkeys are indoctrinated by patriarchy too. It totally isn't the result of androgen production and neural framework.
>>5805169
Except that they don't just take estrogen, you idiot.
At least I hope you're just an ignorant idiot and not purposefully trying to deceive people.
>>5805336
>>male baby monkeys play with action figures, female baby monkeys play with dolls
Aren't action figures and dolls basically the same thing?
>>5805286
>larger physique and stronger bones
You mean hormone sometimes do. But race, enviroment and other genetics actually play a stronger role.
I mean I'm sure you don't disagree that there's no way a skinny effeminate twink would be able to beat a larger and more robust Caucasian/black woman, right?
>>5805268
>Castrated boys on estrogen are intersex
still not females, maybe they can form a third sex
>>5805271
Even on a cellular level, they still have a Y chromosome. Not to mention, they do not have a uterus and are not at risk of cancer that affect female reproductive organs.
>>5805281
No? How are you getting that? Did you mean:
"Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989."?
This isn't talking about trans women vs. females, this is transsexuals vs. cissexuals.
>>5805232
So an abortion is require to have access to women's safe spaces?
Better tell all those infertile women to fuck off!
>>5805169
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10604342
Chemical castration wipes out bonemass, can push it to a subfemale range if there isn't enough estrogen desu.
>>5805342
>muscular barbarian with an axe is the same as a babyfaced doll in a pretty dress
You tell me.
Hello everyone, do you have a personal relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? The Son of God. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16
>>5805232
>Despite trans people's desire for "gendered brains" they simply don't exist.
Despite your desperate desire for facts that don't fit with your feelings to not exist, they still do.
>>5805351
How would monkeys know what axes and dresses are?
>>5805232
>Should gay males seeking shelter from an abusive relationship also be allowed at the women's shelter?Should gay males seeking shelter from an abusive relationship also be allowed at the women's shelter?
How about buck angel?
Also
>trying to steal from females
Because the trannies are deeeefinitely stealing the safe paces and kicking out cis women ;^)
>>5805345
>transsexuals vs. cissexuals.
cis women controls, the diference in the post-89 was so small as to be more likely to statistical noise.
It wouldn't be elevated for anyone here that means. You might have to watch out for the hons desu tho
>>5805364
Monkeys understand what weapons are.
>>5805345
>maybe they can form a third sex
I'm okay with this. You're being reasonable there. Going by things like femgen, a lot of people who take e might even think of themselves as that or just really feminine boys.
That said, if the actual transgirls have GD and they go through all the trouble to alter their bodies to something that looks female, then I don't see why you should throw them out just because their biological intersex status. You don't do that with other IS women.
>Y chromosome
Didn't we already go over how those aren't what does sex development in >>5805324
You even got nifty links.
>>5805345
Yeah, as in the group after 1989 didn't have the increased violent crime rate.
If you want to be taken seriously then you really need to stop trying to pretend that facts you don't like don't exist.
This thread has essentially boiled down to TERFs ardently advocating arbitrary discrimination against people based on their genetics and reproductive organs. How progressive.
>>5805322
>It IS measurable for tests it's just that the tests are prohibitively expensive
How expensive? MRI scans are around $1k where I live. Even a good indicator is better than "feelings".
>>5805324
> It's genes being expressed and that's mediated by stuff like hormones.Chromosomes aren't even what make nad sex
>purposefully being this obtuse
Here's some clarification: Going through male puberty gives you a stronger physique
>>5805333
The issue is that there are no conclusive studies on the subject yet. All the scientific ones simply say "well there are physical variation within a sex"
>>5805343
Yes, but the skinny effeminate twink isn't asking for access to female spaces, though by trans logic, they are just as deserving of access. Gender non-conforming males need to create their own space instead of trying to co-opt female spaces.
>>5805340
>http://openmindedhealth.com/2015/06/quickie-bone-density-and-transgender-hormone-therapy/
"The question this part of the study asked can be summarized as: After 1 year of hormone therapy, with no surgery, was there a change in the bone density of adult trans women and trans men?
And the answer? For trans women: Yes. Trans women gained bone density after a year of hormone therapy. They gained as much as 4.5%, depending on the measurement location."
Happy?
>>5805384
Don't forget all the denial of medicine and science and insistence on censorship in the name of their agenda.
>>5805232
>Actually, recent studies debunked that.
No, they have not. This is radical feminist political rhetoric.
>Despite trans people's desire for "gendered brains" they simply don't exist.
Yes, the brains of both sexes within the male/female binary are markedly different from one another physically, and studies have provided a well of evidence that the brains of trans women are much more in line with those of cis women than cis men.
>Do trans women struggle to get abortions? Do trans women have trouble accessing birth control? If not, they do not experience any of the same problems as me.
There are literally cis women who cannot get pregnant and do not have to deal with these specific issues. You're ridiculous.
>Should gay males seeking shelter from an abusive relationship also be allowed at the women's shelter?
No, because they're gay males. Trans women are female both legally and medically.
>As I've said, males need to build and find their own support network instead of trying to steal from females.
No one's stealing, trans women are just trying to use the facilities that were meant for them and other women.
>Thank you for respecting female boundaries.
Don't get it twisted. If I needed it, I'd belong there just as much as any woman. I wouldn't go there purely so I woudln't have to deal with simple bitches like you who demand all of the respect yet give none and treat people like shit.
>>5805388
It would be one thing if it was covered but people like you got trans insurance coverage removed and the demonizing and smear campaigns that terfs team up with the conservative right for has contributed to trans men and women being turned out on the streets by their families and denied housing and employment.
>>5805388
>isn't asking for access to female spaces
They are if they think of themselves as female and have medically transitioned.
It wouldn't be biologically accurate to call them males by that point. It wouldn't make sense to put them with the biological males either.
>>5805388
A 2010 study conducted by Dr. Pat Griffin and Helen J. Carroll titled "On the Team: Equal Opportunity For Transgender Student Athletes,” supports this conclusion.
“According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender girl or woman competing on a women's team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence."
>>5805383
>Yeah, as in the group after 1989 didn't have the increased violent crime rate.
Overall trans population compared to the overall cis population. However, trans women are more violent than females.
>>5805368
>>5805383
>cis women controls, the diference in the post-89 was so small as to be more likely to statistical noise.
That's not just trans women vs. females. That's the overall data for both genders. trans men have the same crime rates as males.
>>5805349
That's for men with prostate cancer. See http://openmindedhealth.com/2015/06/quickie-bone-density-and-transgender-hormone-therapy/
>>5805348
Again with the 'but infertile women' argument. No, female sex is required for access to female safe spaces.
>>5805382
>if the actual transgirls have GD and they go through all the trouble to alter their bodies to something that looks female
It's a sliding scale and impossible to uphold.
>>5805384
This thread has boiled down to trans women trying to put their feelings over female safety.
>>5805388
>Going through male puberty gives you a stronger physique
In some magical intangible way separate from testosterone and muscle and bone density and just about every relevant physical test they've tried?
>>5805430
>female sex is required for access to female safe spaces.
Why? What's the actual reason to make it based on sex rather than gender?
>>5804868
>I sympathize with their feelings, but I am unwilling to compromise the safety of females by granting males access to female spaces.
Since when do I need your permission? Who the fuck made you the potty police?
This whole "you don't respect women's spaces" line is so ridiculous. I've been accepted among women for like my entire adolescent + adult life but some political crusader is here to *protect women on their behalf*. That's not how it works. Nobody cares about your blog. You don't even know any trannies. Go find something more important to get worked up about.
>>5805232
They haven't
That one you're talking about said that neurological dymorphism is a spectrum with most people on one end or the other.
They just said it's possible to be in betweene, which if anything else just seems like a validation of tumblr genders.
And actually no, it's been proven by genetics that the genes responsible for developmental neurology are regulated in transcription by sex hormones. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24119295
It's a fundamental principle of devobio and going climate change denial and taking a study that talked about dimorphism to claim it's a lie isn't very honest.
>>5805437
The funny part is that trans women are legally and medically female post-transition. This radfem is essentially functioning purely off of baseless political rhetoric and "nuh-uh" at this point.
>>5805388
>The issue is that there are no conclusive studies on the subject yet. All the scientific ones simply say "well there are physical variation within a sex"
wtf are you talking about?
Is this just more of you willfully ignoring everything that doesn't fit your narrative?
It's known that after long enough on hrt trans women have generally lower T and muscle strength than cis women and comparable bone densities. All the actual doctors and professionals involved with testing athletes have approved transpeople and confirmed no apparent physical advantage beyond the variability in cis women.
>>5805430
>Again with the 'but infertile women' argument. No, female sex is required for access to female safe spaces.
The backpedal tho. You literally just made it about fertility, and how fertility and socialization surrounding fertility is what defines a female... and now suddenly it's not about fertility but some mystical "female essence" pretty much that has nothing to do with a person's actual legal or medical desigation but your feels on the matter.
>>5805430
>tans men have the same crime rates
as the control males they were compared with, ditto for the 2003 mtf and their female controls
>>5805430
>That's for men with prostate cancer
They use the exact same cyp drug
>impossible to uphold.
How? When chemical castration is something everyone who wants to be physically feminine, even guys who call themselves boys are getting, it's pretty easy. Chemical castration makes a good minimum threshold.
>This thread has boiled down to
You handwaving studies cause you don't like them and claiming that mtfs who have medically transtioned are somehow responsible or comitting all the violence men commit despite your studies saying that isn't the case
>>5805388
Yeah because nooothing could change after a year of transition, also
>this may not be applicable in the united states
Try to read your own sources instead of just assuming they say what you want them to.
>>5805336
Actaully it was male monkeys play with trucks and blocks
>>5805430
>trans women are more violent than females
Prove it
You've done nothing but ignore evidence and chant "we just can't know for sure" like a climate change denier.
>>5805430
>muh safety
You're sexist, we get it. To you, anyone with a Y chromosome is a tangible threat to women's safety. Just admit that you're a misandrist and call it a day.
>>5805430
>Again with the 'but infertile women' argument.
Of course people are going to make that counter-argument when you try to use experience with birth control and abortion as a reason trans people should not be allowed in safe spaces of the gender they identify as.
If that really is the reason then cis women without those experiences shouldn't be allowed either, otherwise that must not be the real reason and you're just a lying hypocrite piece of shit who will say anything to try to further your agenda.
