Is gender identity genetically determined, or is it just a psychological thing?
Like, i know there have been found differences in brain structure based on gender, and that these differences are not dependent on what biological gender you were born as (eg, mtf brains are similar to cis-fem brains, in some respects. Both mtfs and cis-fems have 'feminized' brains, in other words), but are these similarities caused by your genes or is gender identity developed as you grow up or something?
Does anyone know?
>>5449818
Get through your basic biology, I think it'll be a lot of effort to explain to you how not everything has to be genetic.
most of it is social construct- "girl behavior" and "boy behavior" are a pastiche of social expectations that are learned from an early age and reinforced by cultural norms; deviance is punished. very little of it is innate although, broadly speaking, males and females to tend to display some stereotypical behaviors, and hormones definitely affect behavior- mlaes are objectively more violenmt and aggressive than females, and females are objectively more emotionally aware and likely to communicate, but those are population effects. Personally, it's mostly training and inclination.
brain sex is now fully debunked
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468
>Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain.
>>5449825
I get that not everything about you is just 'genetic', and that genes may have very indirect effects on your brain.. What i'm asking is if we know whether or not gender identity is genetically determined at birth (aka, innate) or we can become male or female as we grow up, depending on some external factors.
>>5449854
Things can be innate/in-born without being genetic you silly person.
Pre-natal hormones is one things that effects how you develop without being written in your genetics. And is thought to be the major factor in whether someone is a tranny or not.
Not everything that's innate is genetic, it can be hormonal as well
>>5449850
>brain sex is now fully debunked
>>5449850
Thank you based anon for summing it up and backing it scientifically.
This is also a satisfying result for feminist analysis.
>>5449872
There aren't a million studies finding that human brains can be categorized as male and female.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-10/30/male-female-brain-difference-not-significant
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/04/male-female-brains-same-but-people-all-different
http://www.medicaldaily.com/battle-sexes-male-and-female-brains-arent-so-different-after-all-363822
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28611-a-welcome-blow-to-the-myth-of-distinct-male-and-female-brains/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151029185544.htm
(I'm being a lazy sloth and just pasting Google results. I figure many of these come down to the same few recent studies, but it's basically the newest result based on gigantic meta-analysis of prior research.)
>>5449818
Unless you got about 15000 individuals that were trans, and 15000 individuals that were not and you tested them and the same results showed up that the angry autist with the .jpg of grey matter keeps posting, there's really no reason to believe there are female or male brains.
>>5449850
oh. Well that complicates things quite a bit, but thanks for linking the article. I was basing my thoughts on outdated research.
I get the social construct thing. I mean, it's obvious that female and male social roles are highly dependent on the particular culture/society you live in. And so it makes sense that what your gender identity will develop into will depend on these things, and it's not the same for everybody everywhere.
>>5449881
Of course there isn't a million, are you actually autistic or something? Since only autistic people take things that literally.
But even if there's not a million there's sure a hell of a lot more that back up brain differences than no differences.
>>5449850
Actually, what they debunked was the idea that there are structural or connective differences. That is, that the brains of males and females operate in a manner fundamentally unlike the other.
Which is something we should have known by now, honestly.
>>5449872
That's a pretty good study there. Anon's conclusion may be both premature and inaccurate, but the data's not bad.
>>5449863
>Pre-natal hormones is one things that effects how you develop without being written in your genetics. And is thought to be the major factor in whether someone is a tranny or not.
yeah, ok, but if you can't distinguish between male and female brain (that is, if the brain doesn't differentiate into male or female, at birth or whenever), then the only thing that those pre-birth hormones are going to be able to affect is your body (primary/secondary sexual characteristics). right?
>>5449895
>Of course there isn't a million, are you actually autistic or something? Since only autistic people take things that literally.
So why exactly did you take *my* million literally?
Dumb fuck.
There are old outdated studies that hinted there may be innate differences. The newest state of the research/meta-analysis is that you cannot gender-categorize brains.
>>5449906
What makes you think pre-natal hormones are just going to effect the body and not the brain? There is a particular phase in pre-natal development where these hormones are specifically released from brain development. In which typically males foetus get more androgens and female ones get less.
>>5449903
Yeah, I wasn't attacking the study, the study is perfectly good. I was attacking the attitude of taking one studying above everything else in order to say the case is close when it is far from it.
>>5449916
>old outdated studies
That's not how this works, one study coming along doesn't instantly debunk everything before it. Not to mention studies saying the opposite are not exactly decades old, most are only a few years.
>>5449872
more brains were examined in this latest study than all of the previous research put to gether by an order of magnitude, and that includes the pickled cadaver brains that Dick Swaabs started with back in the 90s.
That makes you the idiot chick here.
>>5449919
>What makes you think pre-natal hormones are just going to effect the body and not the brain?
The article above (if true) shows that there's no structural differences in the brain between genders, at least on a big scale. There may be more subtle differentiations (some of which i'm guessing would be explainable by evolution/evolutionary psychology means, as far as gender roles are concerned), but that's not really what i'm asking about. I'm asking about modern-day gender identities
>>5449928
How about you actually link to such studies?
Also do you know what a meta-analysis is?
>>5449950
Well, for starters, we know that the brains of males and females are capable of producing a "body map". This study clearly indicates that the process by which the brains of males and females perform this are not fundamentally different.
That's the how. The "what" (which sort of map is produced) is not explained or touched on by this study. Existing studies suggest that this process happens in the womb, but the most consistent physical indicators of this aren't visible until adulthood. Brains are complicated.
>>5449979
>body map
What do you mean?
what a mess.
So, basically, the only way we can identify a person as being transgender is by asking him/her.
i.e. you're trans if you say you wanna be, and that's that. Or you can be in denial - that is still wanting to be of the opposite gender, but not wanting to want to be, if that makes sense.
>>5450019
A map of what your brain thinks your body is physically (supposed) to be like. As in, length of limbs and stuff like that. That also includes presence of organs (the reason phantom limbs are a thing). If you're trans, your body map might include opposite sex organs. I don't know if it's just me being crazy, but I sometimes feel like I have a vagina when I'm totally at rest. Probably it's just me being crazy though. Who knows.
>>5450081
oh i see what you mean, that body mapping in the cortex thing.
I'd guess that it's probably just a deep longing for it that makes it feel physical. But that doesn't make it any less real (or you more crazy)
>>5449903
>That's a pretty good study there. Anon's conclusion may be both premature and inaccurate, but the data's not bad.
Nope, the study isn't good. It didn't test BNST, because we already know that's sexually dimorphic.
So no, that study is completely moot, because it didn't actually contribute to anything in any direction of the argument.
>>5449950
That study isn't saying anything about if brains are sexed or not, they just did a completely pointless study because the were given money to do it.
I really can't figure out where it can find any use... It's literally a completely useless study, it's just another example of how government likes to throw away money that could be used for useful things instead.
>>5449979
>Well, for starters, we know that the brains of males and females are capable of producing a "body map".
No, we don't, and that's just bullshit ftms throw around all the time.
What we do know is that body parts have a place in the brain, which is what causes phantom pains, whenever you lose a limb.
>>5450380
yay the butthurt tranny with delusions has shown up!
>>5450380
>t BNST, because we already know that's sexually dimorphic.
nope! gay and lesbians show similar levels of "wrong sex" differentation to trans in the very small studies done(which haven't been repeated fyi).
>>5450380
>That study isn't saying anything about if brains are sexed or not
"Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain." - lead researcher of the study
1400 samples, bro. Sorry about your dick but your brain isn't gendered, or if it is, you're part of a demographic so small it isn't important
>>5449818
>psychological thing
It is literally this 100%
The people saying it isn't are GENERALLY actual trans people attempting to justify their condition to themselves and to the world.
>inb4 tripcode-trans reply to this post
>>5450380
It's worthless for proving that there is no neurological basis for transsexuals, Anon. That was neither the stated intent of the study nor the conclusion the researchers reached.
>Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.
The brain stem, and by consequence the Stria Terminalis, was not a part of what they were investigating. Little wonder the differences there weren't observed, since their attention was directed at our "higher functions". Their observations are not without value because they're not of value to transgender persons OR persons wishing to debunk the neurological basis of gender identity.
And how are you denying the existence of a map for the body in the brain with a statement that there is a map of the body in the brain?
There are identical twins with opposite genders out there, therefore it can't be genetic in the simplest meaning of the term (ie, like having the genes that cause you to develop a female sexual organ).
There can still be genetic 'predispositions' for coming out as female or male, but those are neither necessary nor sufficient conditions for it, so you can't distinguish between genders based only on your dna.
>>5450585
>human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes
But the data doesn't support that conclusion at all. The only thing the study shows is that you can't model sex differences using conjunction of around 10 features they picked, with arbitrary definitions "strictly male" and "strictly female" for each feature. Any relationship more complicated than a simple logical conjunction of "strictly male/female" for ALL features wasn't even considered.
>>5449950
>There may be more subtle differentiations (some of which i'm guessing would be explainable by evolution/evolutionary psychology means, as far as gender roles are concerned), but that's not really what i'm asking about.
That's interesting though. That means that there are, for example, mtfs born in a male body with a male brain -meaning a brain that has male instincts (male gender-coded evolutionarily inherited behaviors)- that still end up having a female gender identity.
>>5450921
>I able to better interpret data I haven't seen than the original scientists that gathered it! Why did they bother doing science since it doesn't agree with my strongly held beliefs!
Are you also a creationist?
>thread is full of strawmen
rip debate
>>5449916
>>5449960
"Brain" tab of
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9KKqP9IHa5ZxU84a_Jf0vIoAh7e8nj_lCW27KbYBh0/edit#gid=0
That post misrepresent the study conclusions :
>Rather, most brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males.[...] Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.
>>5451270
>"Scientist" are mystical sages that I should believe without ever questioning evdence, despite their title clearly indicating prowess in only one, very specific area of knowledge
Lol. To put it very simple so you can understand, having a PhD in neurology doesn't really imply you're good with statistics, And yes, proper data analysis is generally a foreign concept for many "scientists" in different fields. It's more of a general problem in academia than something exclusivelt related to beliefs on LGBT issues.
>>5450585
They'd have to disprove the other studies first.
It's a completely useless study, it's probably financed by some drug lord that needed to laundry money or something.
>>5451524
>you alone
Lol again. Have you even read the actual paper?Anyone who does can come to the same conclusion, which you still haven't debunked in any other way than appeal to authority. They haven't checked for any possible relationship between the variables other than a logical conjunction (i.e. "if feature A is male AND feature B is male AND feature C..." etc.), that's a fact, not a point of view.
>judging a study's result by the abstract
>not knowing they are basically clickbait for academia
For non-retard, full text is here : http://www.pnas.org/lens/pnas/112/50/15468
Notably figure 1 (pic related). It's not saying brains are the same, but that there's significant overlap.
>>5449825
if someone comes to you, willing to listen, you don't tell them to go read a book
>>5449818
Read:
http://www.avitale.com/etiologicalreview.htm
>There is no clearly understood cause for gender variance. However, we have enough information about fetal brain development and the procedure the embryo goes through in becoming either male, female or intersexed, to implicate the complexity of the procedure itself as a cause of the spontaneous sex reversal or potential sex/gender discontinuity (1). What follows is an abbreviated sample of what we now know about what goes on relative to being gendered physiologically.
>This leads one to consider the possibility that male hormonal surges must occur not only in sufficient amounts in the developing fetus, but must be timed to take advantage of the short time the brain is open to being defeminized/masculinized, forming a predominantly male gendermap. If there is insufficient androgen, or the surge comes too late, the gendermap may be only partially imprinted as male. These disruptions of hormonal surges may come from a variety of sources, including a disorder in the mother's endocrine system such as a hormone-secreting tumor, common maternal stress, medications or some other toxic substance or adverse event yet to be identified.
>>5451571
>i am more than qualified to totally reverse the conclusions of the lead researcher of a science project because reasons and therefore
tell me more about how Jesus rode on dinosaurs
>>5451595
>not saying brains are the same, but that there's significant overlap.
no shit. thus tranny brain sex is disproved and total woo until further notice.
>>5449850
You cannot draw the conclusion that being transgender is nurture from a study saying that the general make-up of the brain isn't sexually dimorphic.
>>5449818
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900.full This shows pre-hormone MtFs' and womens' bodies behaving the same in a dimorphic way. http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html This shows that people who are genetically the same are more likely to both come out as trans.
>>5449818
We probably won't ever know now that it's offensive to consider it a mental disorder. Fuck that - I want a brain scan, a proper diagnosis that doesn't involve my obscure feelings, and a cure.
>>5458989
>Fuck that - I want a brain scan, a proper diagnosis that doesn't involve my obscure feelings, and a cure.
Are there many trans individuals out there that want their gender dysphoria to actually be cured, rather than attempting to treat it through transitioning? Is there any scientific/academic support for that line of thinking?
>>5459074
I have not seen many people who share my mindset, and I haven't looked for any papers. My impression is that the culture will not allow such research to take place.
I get berated for having that opinion if it ever gets brought up here. Usually, the objection is that a person would not be "themself" after getting cured. But the self is just arbitrary; everything you do changes the self, and the self that represents you now is very different than the self that will represent you a year from now. To choose a cure is to choose one of many possible future mes that doesn't have to deal with crippling desire to be the other sex and painful reminders that no matter what I do I will still be a cruel facsimile. I am angry that I will never get a cure because it's "wrong" to consider what I have a disorder. Because it's so terrible to say I have a mental illness (you know, because having a mental illness is inherently wrong and makes you a bad person) that people would rather make me suffer than attach to me that label.
>>5458989
Regardless of whether or not we can find neurological basis for Gender Dysphoria, "muh feeling" is a legitimate reason for making decisions about life style, obviously provided that decision leads to the person living a healthier more comfortable life.
"Mental Disorder" is not suppose to be stigma, nor is suppose to entail more than what the actual disorder is.That is if someone is consider to have a mental disorder, it does not mean they have that mental disorder plus they are crazy(which is meaningless in psychiatry) , it just means they have that mental disorder.
Mental disorder is defined as a syndrome that has adverse effect on the persons/environments well being, not accounted for cultural normative behavior.
Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder because it is a syndrome that has adverse effects for those that it affects, not because they are "crazy".
>>5458989
>>5459074
None of the methods tried so far have worked.
Given how I think it is tied into the structure of the reptile part of the brain, I doubt a cure could be found short of rewiring the brain.
This >>5459233 too.
>>5459259
Transgender is just considered a condition of birth just like being gay, lesbian, or bisexual are. GD is the mental disorder that is currently only treatable with some degree of transition.
Gay men have female thinking brains.
Mtfs are just psychologically damaged.
