>defeat this suggested contradiction with your logic
I really am curious, I tried wrapping my head around it but got a little murky when my understanding of the difference between sex and gender proved to be inadequate. I'm aware of the concept that gender norms are mostly societal pressure, like girls shaving their legs etc. but transgender stuff has got me all twisted up.
>>5399819
social gender norms, as in what's expected of each gender in our society are mostly socially constructed... but that doesn't mean gender in and of itself is entirely a social construct. there are biological reasons people recognize themselves as a certain gender that have nothing to do with socially constructed ideas of gender like men wearing suits and ties and women wearing heels and lipstick.
>>5399819
I'm mtf
I have things like body dysphoria and always looked more to the females in my life for guidance, support, friendship etc. and it was more natural.
This resulted in being influenced by things that /are/ pushed onto girls from a young age and have quite little to do with what is probably a wiring issue we aren't close to understanding yet.
I'm completely on board with the right button.
Then again I'm a gendercrit feminist so
>>5399837
So someone who is transgender has been born as the wrong sex, and to align themselves with the sex they feel they truly are they adopt the gender norms of the gender that goes along with the sex they feel they are
>>5399844
I phrased this post weird.
I'm sure people will know what I meant but it reads weird to me in retrospect. I've been up to long.
Will clear up what I mean if needed though
Nobody believes these two things. You might see feminists espouse both, but there are many different types from Marxist to Proletarian.
If you want my opinion, gender is mostly neurological, which is why it's possible to have a brain that feels it should be the gender it wasn't born as, but the things you do to alleviate those feelings are largely based on a cultural understanding of what that gender is (i.e. gender roles). If we were all brains in jars, there would be no trans and cis women, it would just be a subset of neural patterns called women. But society perceives a person as their body, not their brain, so it's usually necessary to change the body to match the bodies typical of the gender you want to be, which is because of society. Hormones, surgery, and voice training are the typical means of accomplishing this.Your brain is the gender you are. Your brain is all that you are. The hardware your brain uses is just incompatible sometimes. And no, comparisons to people who want to remove their arms are not valid because that issue is psychological and chemical, can be treated through therapy, and indulging in their desire would hinder their general well-being. Conventionally male and conventionally female bodies are both perfectly functional and neither hampers a person's ability to engage in society in a productive and healthy manner. Moreover, cognitive therapy has been shown not to work for gender dysphoria, while transitioning has proven to greatly relieve dysphoria.
>>5399855
You're saying you follow female stereotypes because you absorbed female socialization because you saw yourself as a grill from a young age, yeah?
>>5399850
So my thinking is that all you need to do to counter the contradiction is to say
>gender is a social construct
>you can be born as the wrong sex
>>5399861
yeah, basically.
Wheras without some of the standards we've set for genders I would probably identify the way I do but I wouldn't have absorbed some of the interests I did.
I think people try to make this distinction via the "sex=/=gender" thing but they don't really explain it much further
>>5399861
Some do, but generally it's more basically ubiquitous feminine things like a higher and softer voice, breasts, lack of pants bulge, and a lack of facial hair.
On some level these are just societal expectations, but they're so prevalent that it's hard to see someone as female without these traits.
>>5399872
Those aren't societal expectation's nigger, those are indicators of female sex.
Nobody sees you as female without these traits because these traits make you female.
From some of these responses it seems like yall don't accept the idea that sex and gender are two completely different things. rather the thinking is that
>you are born a man or a woman
>there are different expectations put on both of these sexes
>you can feel like you were born the incorrect sex
>so you take steps toward emulating the other sex, taking guidance from the expectations society has for that sex, as well as hormones and potentially surgery to more directly emulate that sex
>>5399875
lmao
>>5399878
I see what he is saying, there is a difference between whether you shave your legs or not and whether you have tits or a dick
>>5399875
You see how deeply you've been ingrained in this? You only believe this because you live in a society that judges a person by the mech they pilot. If we were all brains in jars, there would still be gender, despite lacking a body to be feminine or masculine
>>5399886
if having a soft voice and no beard and tits arent accepted traits of the average woman then why to mtf trans people take hormones to lower their voice? why do they shave their faces? why do they get surgery to get fake tits when they're tiny gyno tits from the hormones arent good enough?
>>5399886
No, dumbass we would not have genders.
Why? Because we wouldn't have the hormones that our body produces to keep or make our minds male or female.
We'd just be sexless really fucked up emotionless brains in jars.
After a while we'd eventually, if we didn't have any artificial senses or something, go completely insane then cataonic then eventually our minds would just blank.
>>5399901
You misunderstand. I'm saying those are accepted traits, and doing those things helps lessen dysphoria by meeting those expectations.
But people only have this expectation because of the society they live in, which values the body's appearance over the brain's contents when it comes to making these incredibly baseline assumptions about a person.
For the record, there's not an agenda to this, it's just an observation. There's nothing really wrong with this 99% of the time, and it's completely unfeasible to change it even if you wanted to. At best, we'd be doing the SJW thing of asking for everyone's preferred pronouns even if they're a beefy baritone Irish dude with a full beard and body hair sticking out the holes of his shirt. I don't think you could ever force that practice on people when the vast majority of the time the question would be redundant. The better solution would be to ascend humanity to a Matrix-like existence but without simulating human bodies, and obviously we don't have the means to do that yet.
>>5399872
But as an mtf I want secondary sex characteristics that match how I feel because that's what other girls got and would get regardless of societal expectations. See: breasts, high voice, no facial hair.
Lack of pants bulge because having a penis is fucking weird
Though on shaving and stuff I could agree yeah
>>5399905
The "brain in a jar" phrase was really just meant to illustrate the general idea, not be a utopian hypothesis.
However, for the sake of argument, mental gender is determined by more than just hormones, or otherwise all testosterone-producing bodies would identify as men and we wouldn't have trans people. We could set it up so that each new brain born would be meticulously scanned for typically female or male neural patterns, then put in a system that would feel it the proper nutrients and appropriate hormones. Obviously the brain would also be able to interface with a digital world to interact with the other brains.
>>5399941
Well yes but your mind only wants it because we are pattern-seeking creatures. You see that 99% of the female brains in the world have a certain body type, and assume that you, as a female brain, should also aspire to attain that body type.
>>5399928
my idea is that ideal society would be as gender blind as possible. no gendered clothes or bathrooms or pronouns even. There are people with penises and people with vaginas and even some people in between,but the only necessary identifier is human in the eyes of society and the government. Penis in vagina sex obviously would be what we'd need to do to create more humans, but sexual orientation would also be much more fluid and much less important
>>5399951
I think this is attainable but I feel the collective human psyche is trapped in a loop of people identifying as certain genders (biological to the brain and unavoidable), and wanting to express that gender, which creates expectations, which causes people to express in the expected ways, etc.
>>5399948
>You see that 99% of the female brains in the world have a certain body type, and assume that you, as a female brain, should also aspire to attain that body type.
doesn't explain why there are trans people who want to keep their genitals.
This thread got weird fast. Bet you people watched End of Evangelion and thought Shinji was foolish for reversing Instrumenality.
>>5399963
Probably a combination of the fact that you can pass in public without SRS and some reflecting on some variation of the brain-sex theory to validate their own gender on a higher level of internal thought, but I can only speculate.
>>5399975
>Probably a combination of the fact that you can pass in public without SRS
i know dysphoria is highly subjective so maybe other people think differently but dysphoria is about discomfort about your own body. so the person should be still dysphoric about their genital, according to your theory.
>some reflecting on some variation of the brain-sex theory to validate their own gender on a higher level of internal thought
i don't really understand but i assume you mean that their brain-sex tells them to be intersex? that kind of makes sense i think but i don't see how it cooperates with the pattern seeking theory.
>>5400003
Well yes, but you don't think about a stranger's genitals usually, while it's impossible not to notice women's breasts, voices, and lack of facial hair. Perhaps this would even explain a complete lack of genital dysphoria, since everything else about women is something you see reinforced every time you see one in public, while vaginas are only discussed in specific situations, typically sexual or clinical, which isn't that common.
As for the second part, I'm talking about your conscious vs unconscious mind. A similar example would be being a generally angry person but still being peaceful. Everything in your base instincts tells you to punch someone who bumped into you in the hall, but the rational part of your mind know that that would be a bad idea. Similarly, your base instincts might tell you you need a vagina to be a woman, but your rational mind tells yourself that the body is irrelevant to your identity and so is okay with not having a vagina. Alternatively, you don't even want a vagina at a base level because of the thing mentioned above.
>>5400025
>first paragraph
i get what you mean and it would definitely explain why they would feel relatively less dysphoria about their genitals. i know i didn't specify this first so you could call this moving the goalpost but i meant people who are genuinely okay with their genitals.
>Similarly, your base instincts might tell you you need a vagina to be a woman, but your rational mind tells yourself that the body is irrelevant to your identity and so is okay with not having a vagina.
that contradicts the general and medicinal consensus that you can't talk or think away dysphoria. that sounds very much like repression.
>>5400047
mutilating your genitals i also see as a little more extreme than most other ways people express their preferred gender. that paired with the mentioned ability to pass well in public without srs makes it not as common
>>5400047
I don't think they think their way out of genital dysphoria. Either they never had it or they're just repressing it.
The ones who never had it confuse me and I don't have a good hypothesis.
>>5400067
I'd imagine if magic was real and you could just poof your penis into a vagina anyone who is mtf would do it, but some people are better at accepting it isn't that simple and just learn to be ok with their penis and focus on their boipussi, not judging the ones who do choose to have srs, I just think that they are the ones with means to do it and are willing to deal with getting a surgery and the recovery process and the potential complications
>>5400063
>mutilating your genitals
that wording suggests strong negative feelings about an operation that is part of a treatment plan the medical community has no objection against. yes there are exceptions to that.
>as a little more extreme than most other ways people express their preferred gender.
there's still lots of negative feelings here? i don't like the wording because transitioning is mostly to feel comfortable about your body and to be happy.
>that paired with the mentioned ability to pass well in public without srs makes it not as common
also paired with the facts that little information exists about the results so a lot of trans people are scared to undergo it coupled with the cost of a new car and some other factors.
>>5400084
Well I'm one of those guys who calls circumcision genital mutilation, and being on 4chan I thought more colorful language would be alright, but to try and remove my negativity: srs is a surgery so is more invasive (hope invasive isn't triggering for you) than other ways to conform to your identity. I don't know much about the procedure, but I'd imagine there are potential complications and there definitely is s long recovery time to get your new genitals all healed and in working order. I'd imagine that some mtf trans people choose to not get surgery because of these reasons. They have to see the pros and cons of getting the surgery or not, some feel the genital dysphoria stronger than other, and some can accommodate the financial and time investment of getting the surgery better than others
>>5399845
I'm completely on board with the left button
Then again I'm a transsexual so
>>5400106
>(hope invasive isn't triggering for you)
i didn't mean to forbid you words. i wasn't "triggered". i just don't think these wordings are constructive to a discussion, even here on 4chan, and they are mostly used by people that hate trans people and use irrational reasons so i thought you belong to those.
yes, every surgery is invasive but switching out the sex hormone your body is running on is very invasive too. there is a big difference in how your body works on either hormone. and like i said there is much more than one reason for why people do not want SRS.
>>5400113
Well point of the thread was to see if yall could help me reconcile the two ideas and make sense of how they both can be true, not sure about the general opinion, but this thread has definitely helped me wrap my head around the issue and transgenderness in general
>also, is there a difference between transgender and transsexual? I see those words used seemingly the same way, but that could just be the ignorance of the speaker or from my own ignorance as the listener
>>5400119
Not sure if it was you, but someone said something along the lines of, "they never had genital dysphoria or they are repressing it." Maybe my definition of repressed is too extreme, but I'm pretty sure it's almost always a negative thing, my thought was that accepting that srs isn't the option you want to take isn't the same thing as white knuckle repressing your genital dysphoria.
>>5400131
no, that was the person i was talking to. i know repression from personal experience and it was of the extreme variant. but i don't know the definition so i can't say anything about that.
>>5400120
>reconcile the two ideas and make sense of how they both can be true
i don't think they are usually said by the same person. this website (in my experience) thinks the left button is true and what i heard of tumblr indicates they think the right button is true.
transsexual is the old word which has negative stigma. people changed it to transgender to remove that stigma but it now has a way broader meaning now and is an umbrella term for everything that is not gender conforming. which is why trans people is usually used for those that want to medically transition.
>>5400177
I took a womens gender studies class in college and they rammed both ideas down our throats with no care for explaining
>>5399850
>they adopt the gender norms
Not even that.
I don't wear any feminine clothing, I wear no makeup, and am generally a mega tomboy.
I also pass flawlessly despite a pixie cut.
gender norms tend to be something you see espoused most firmly by 50 year old men in dresses who think that the way to be a woman is to emulate the 50s and it's genuinely creepy and disturbing as fuck
>>5400206
>I took a womens gender studies class in college
why the hell would you do that? what did you expect besides nonsense?
I'm mtf and don't agree with either of those "buttons".
Not everyone in the LGBT has such a naive perspective on the world and how our minds work.
Can we stop having this thread now? We've been having it for years.
>>5400227
It was easy and I got to look at all the hot dumb girls in the classroom
>>5400216
If you have bad genetics, you may need to follow gender norms a bit more to gain passing. For utilitarian purpose, even though such things ought to have no bearing on whether you are a women.
That's my experience at least, I behave about the same as before transition, but i've added some mannerisms to pass adequately, so as to have smoother social interactions.
On the other hand, I like dresses as a clothing option, and I'd like to think that's not influenced by gender norms, and that it is just a personal taste; but it probably is, at least unconsciously. Hopefully that doesn't make me a creepy hon.
Some say gatekeeping (which is basically gender norm uber enforcement) is the cause of the creepy hyperfeminity. But hons still exist even with informed consent, so that's not totally convincing.
So what should we do to solve the "hon problem" ? I think the gender critical folk are mostly riled up because of it, and to some extent they have a point.
>>5399819
"People can be born as the wrong gender" is an oversimplification but essentially correct, since gender dysphoria likely manifests from an intersex neurological structure.
"Gender is a social construct" is essentially bullshit. Masculinity and femininity are defined differently in different cultures but it's always HEAVILY informed by biological reality and to deny that is absurd
>>5399819
Gender is mostly a social construct. Things like makeup and dresses are no more inherently feminine than pants or athletics are inherently masculine. Hence why one can be a crossdresser without being transsexual.
However, there are obviously some biological differences between males and females, and that includes certain aspects of brain structure - so much we know for a fact. Gender dysphoria appears to originate from structural differences in the brain, since psychological treatment and medication is generally ineffective in "curing" it, and while we don't understand the brain very well, what evidence we do have bears that assumption out. To say that a transsexual is born the "wrong" sex is almost certainly oversimplistic, but since transitioning eliminates the dysphoria that's academic.
>>5400384
Yes, it's just that people normally focus on the wrong aspects of masculinity and femininity, and not the actual historical/cultural commonalities.
>>5399819
"Not everyone identifies with the gender they are assigned"
>>5399819
>>5400351
The hon problem can be solved in only one way.
That way consists of 'all the current hons dying of old age / unpasser suicide' and 'education early so people can come out in their teens and twenties and not become unpassing hons'.
I mean there's a lot of people who transition in those age ranges and dont pass and look like fucking trolls, but a large part of all of it is just going with what suits you.
>>5400331
i can respect that
>>5399819
> defeat this suggested contradiction with your logic
It's a strawman. People can be born the wrong sex, not born the wrong gender. Get better bait.
>>5400467
> can be solved in only one way
> proceeds to list a way that solves nothing at all
you dumb cunt, the solution to late transition is regenerative medicine to make people younger again, then HRT. Oh and better surgery.
People need to be funding this shit, not writing late transitioners off as lost causes. Late transitions are older and have more money. If anything they pave the way for the youngins.
>>5400762
They are 100% lost causes.
1 in 10 is okay, but the rest are fucking insane, unpassing, bearded 'women' with voices deeper than the marianas trench and gravellier than a fucking mine slag pile, screaming as best they possibly can about how "You pass flawlessly hon" to each other.
I feel sorry for them since they got fucked by a world that didnt want to admit they existed, but there's no way to fix them.
>>5399850
>So someone who is transgender has been born as the wrong sex
Being born as the "wrong sex" or in the "wrong body" assumes that there was some kind of spiritual mix-up or something. No, they were just born with a mental disorder.
>>5400762
>the solution to late transition is regenerative medicine to make people younger again
>the solution is magic
i'd totally love it if that happened. make me 12 again, please, so i can enjoy puberty this time.
>>5399819
gender isn't a social construct. not purely. okay, some of it is socially dictated, but the bottom line is you cannot deny there are biological factors to gender.
end of story.
so people can be born as the wrong gender.
this is why there is animosity between some transgender and some feminist people. a lot of feminists insist gender is entirely a social construct and refuse to acknowledge gender dysphoria because it precludes that assertion. but if it is solely a social construct, what do the masses of male to female transwomen mean for their philosophy? if it's not for dysphoria, but social reasons, then what you are seeing is large swathes of supposedly privileged people throw all of that privilege away, and more (because transwomen are less privileged than cis women). it undercuts feminists in the oppression olympics.
>>5399819
People can be born as the wrong *sex* which leads to being assigned the wrong gender, which is a social construct.
>>5400886
Not really, the brain is perfectly healthy, it's just a female brain with male anatomy or vice versa.
>>5399819
Gender and what society thinks of gender are different things, but shallow people conflate them. On one hand you have people who think being a man means wood working and trucks and being a woman is ribbons and ponies. On the other hand you have people who think that your internal perceptions about yourself and your body are the way they are because of how you were socialised. Both miss the point. There's no way man "stuff" is inherently masculine because different cultures have different "things" associated with manhood. So there's obviously A social construct. But gender itself isn't something you learn like a language, it's something you develop neurological like motor skills. The social construct exists, but it's built around gender and not the other way around.
People often confuse the word "social construct" with fake, which is not necessarily true. Money, government, military, these are all social constructs, and it could easily be argued that they are very real and very necessary. It's the same thing with gender.
>>5400895
Regenerative medicine is not magic. The billions being poured into stem cell research should be proof enough.
>>5401750
>It's the same thing with gender.
no. gender has a biological cause. you are talking about gender roles.
>>5401789
>fuck it I don't care
This is literally the only correct attitude.
>>5401750
>government
>real
>necessary
>>5399860
I have a hard time believing that so many people were born healthily as one gender but with a brain as the other. That seems as though it would be a very rare occurrence. Are there any medical studies to back this theory up? I'd be very interested to read more into this but I wouldn't know where to start.
Moreso, if I'm right and it really is that rare, are most trans people then evidently doing it out of choice? I mean, sure, there's no issue with that. Do what you want, but it's interesting to break down.
Gender [roles] are a social construct but people can still be born with the other sex's body.
>>5402308
How do you justify that, biologically? There's no such thing as a soul. The brain is an incredibly complicated organ and heavily influenced by hormones throughout its development, you don't just get born with the "wrong type" of brain like someone made a mistake at the post office when they were packing your skull. The difference between male and female brains is one of degree and general tendency.
>>5402334
I am inclined to agree that most aspects of what we see as man/woman is socially defined and ever evolving as a concept except I also subscribe to the notion that while brain is highly malleable and can be turned to male pattern-specific to female pattern-specific back to back with hormones there is still an overall perception of one self that one's body does not fit caused by a specific brain setup that allows this to happen despite your SRY genes and your completely normal healthy male body.
I do not think there is a way to fix that like it's a mental disorder, the solution is putting non-binary people on hormones if they insist just like the tranny medical "cabal" keeps saying because the overwhelming number of men and women will still have brains more in synch with their respective body sex than against. Disagreeing with their brains and you'll have more David Reimers, dudes that keep staying dudes even after cutting their dudething off.
>>5400762
robots, friend
>>5402297
>so many people were born healthily as one gender but with a brain as the other.
how do you get that idea? estimations go from 0.01 to 0.5% of the population.
and no, that's not how conclusions work. you can't invalid peoples medical condition because of your uninformed estimation of what the the occurrence rate should be. the occurrence is something that can only be observed and how ever often it happens is how often it happens.
>>5402334
studies indicate that the BSNTc, a non-plastic region, has a rather clear differentiation of male and female. in trans people the BSNTc was found to be similar to the sex they identify as. the best theory right now (at least in my opinion) is that during pregnancy the child receives too much testosterone during certain phases or a certain phase (female to male) or not enough (male to female)
>>5404563
This is a plausible theory, but it obviously doesn't support the "wrong body" claim. It suggests a specific disorder in a specific part of the brain is responsible for gender dysphoria, and we've decided the best way to treat that (which I'm not disputing) is gender transitioning. Just because a person has this disorder would not necessarily mean that other sexually dimorphic parts of their brain don't fall within the typical norms of their sex, and other aspects of someone's brain could be atypical for their sex without that person suffering gender dysphoria (homosexuality, for example). "Born in the body of the opposite sex" is an accurate statement of how a transperson FEELS, but it's absurd to treat it as a biological fact.
>>5399819
This whole arguement is just a sub-set of the nature (born the wrong gender) vs nuture (social construct) debate and that was put to bed ages ago. It isn't a "one or the other" sort of thing but rather an interplay of the two under extremely unlikely (but not impossible) circumstance that results in gender dysphoria. Both ideals are valid up to a point but can't explain the whole picture on their own. That only comes when you consider them both together instead of regarding them as mutually exclusive
Eh, I'm rambling but thats my two cents worth
>press gender is a social construct button
transgenders are now no more than creepy fetishists and conversion therapy now works
>press people can be born as the wrong gender button
everything goes on exactly the same as it is now except very slightly less tumblr as there will no longer be genderfluid bs since this only deals with gender identity vs gender roles/cultural bs
>>5404775
i thought it was general consensus already that "born in the wrong body" was just a good way to explain the feelings of trans people to cis people? what you say is definitely closer to biology than an extreme reduction of a very complicated matter.
>>5404949
>i thought it was general consensus already that "born in the wrong body" was just a good way to explain the feelings of trans people to cis people?
Emphatically not. Read this very thread, then try to imagine attitudes in the general public.
>>5400886
Neurological disorder, try to read some actual research and not just rely on your feels.
>>5405132
>Mental: of or relating to the mind
>Neurological: of or relating to the study of the nervous system
I don't like morons, fuck off.
>>5405183
we know what neurological means, faggot. do as anon said and read the research again, it is neurological/neurodevelopmental.
>>5405192
That's correct, it is neurological. It is also mental. You don't appear to know the difference, or lack thereof. I'm guessing you're trans?
>>5405205
whether a condition falls under the scope of neurology or psychiatry has profound implications for its treatment.
like it or not, psychiatry is dragging its heels in adopting rigorous scientific method, advancing at a glacial pace, and still recovering from the hangover of the psychopharmacology revolution.
Any condition treated under psychiatry usually utilizes what would be considered reparative methods, and this is fine for most psychiatric conditions where the unspoken truth is that they derive at least in part from adverse life experiences. If psychiatrists were brave enough to admit as much, they would have to concede that treating the vast myriad of psychiatric conditions as categorically distinct syndromes is void, and that the only real way to fix psychiatric problems is by fixing the social circumstances that caused them, which falls completely out of the scope of psychiatric practice.
Neurology takes a far more scientific approach in understanding conditions, and a far more realistic approach in managing them.
>>5405239
>whether a condition falls under the scope of neurology or psychiatry has profound implications for its treatment.
Didn't bother reading the rest, because you clearly don't understand the difference between "mental" and "psychiatric", either.
Words mean things - especially in scientific and medical contexts - and when you don't use them correctly it leads to pointless shit-flinging like this current conversation. Dementia, for example, is a mental disorder. It is both classified as such and meets the English-language definition of the term. It is also a neurological disorder. Alzheimer's, the most common cause, is not considered treatable through therapy.
>>5405266
What use is there though, in referring to gender dysphoria as a mental disorder when it cannot be treated medically as a mental disorder, but can be remedied through physical processes?
>>5405296
It is treated medically as a mental disorder, you've just misunderstood what that term means. I think I get where you're coming from, when I picture anti-trans referring to it as a "mental disorder". They're using the term wrong, that doesn't mean everyone who uses the term is as dumb as they.
>>5405305
I have one more question though. With both psychiatry and neurology existing, and with anything that could be deemed a mental disorder falling under the scope of another discipline, is the term "mental" not then redundant?
>>5405313
Anything a psychiatrist treats would probably be classified as a mental disorder, but not all neurological disorders are mental - e.g. Parkinson's. Also a given mental disorder might be treated by psychotherapists, neurologists or both, depending on the cause and symptoms. Medicine tends to both a high degree of specialisation and a lot of overlap, crazily enough.
(Actually I think Parkinson's might be, it's not my field. Cerebral palsy might be a better example.)
>>5405354
having seen parkinson's in the family i don't really know but with both parkinson's and alzheimer's, could you not say that the disorders themselves are neurological, but the term mental only directly applies to the dementia that they cause?
