>>5378009
The answer is to disregard feminism completely. You should know this by now.

>feminism
>Ideology made by women
>coherent logic

>>5378009

feminism doesn't even know what it is anymore
the same goes for p much every current slacktivist movment. Not that old feminism was slacktivism, or that there aren't people now who actually try to make themselves useful instead of pretending their blog is worth anything, but yeah.

For me it's because dysphoria. By dysphoria I mean I get the phantom feelings, was always drawn to looking up to females, was always more comfortable with them, etc.
This means I had plenty of the "conditioning" or whatever that the people you're referring to talk about, and gained interest in certain things.

And this is why their "logic" should confirm that if you don't have dysphoria you aren't trans, but then they just yell at you if you say that

>>5378009

>can't tell the difference between gender and gender roles

>>5378009
> Sex and gender are social constructs

Gender theory does not say this, nor does any mainstream feminist philosophy. I hate to say it but you're crafting a boogey/straw man here.

That being said, let me drop some facts on you. First off, everyone knows that sexual expression is biological. Secondly, gender is an entire subject. Some of the concepts int he subject of gender are social constructs. The best way to think of it is this: Gender is a reflection of sex. When someone says gender-as-a-social construct, they tend to be referring to what is known as 'gender roles', which is what a society considers a 'real man' or 'real woman' to be. AKA: You're not a real man until you undergo your vision quest and come back to the tribe, or "You're not a real man if you like to wear a skirt."

Then there's gender identity, which is neurological (and likely hormonal as well). it is the sexual expression of their ideal self. Like when they fantasize or dream.

> (Sorry for the rant. This shit has just been making my head explode)
The reason for this is that some people intentionally mis-represent modern gender and sex theories in order to cause confusion. Oh yeah and lets not forget the people that do kind of know what's going on and can't articulate it well. My recommendation is to look at scholarly sources for this stuff instead of going on 4chan.

>>5378190
Except they're pushing gender as a construct now, and not just gender roles.

The wild ride hasn't even started.

>>5378193

http://www.autostraddle.com/its-time-for-people-to-stop-using-the-social-construct-of-biological-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

That's the problem, anon. They're not just disputing gender roles anymore. It's full blown rejection of biology and claiming it's a social construct and it's gaining traction.

>>5378206
>http://www.autostraddle.com/its-time-for-people-to-stop-using-the-social-construct-of-biological-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

>There’s nothing intrinsically male about XY chromosomes, testosterone, body hair, muscle mass or penises. If an alien civilization found earth, they wouldn’t look at a person with a penis and say “Oh, that must be a male, sex based on genitalia is the One Universal Constant.” Sex, like gender, is indeed socially constructed and can be changed.

Hoooooly shit

File: 1449725047648.jpg (2 MB, 3000x1998) Image search: [Google]

2 MB, 3000x1998

I disagree with the first four but agree with the fifth.

Have you ever seen a MtF penis? The skin on their shaft looks all soft, it lacks the veiny textures of a masculine dick, and they look extremely clean, being a biscum, I can tell you that they also lack the musky man-smell that is common in a male dick.

If those dicks ain't feminine, I don't know what is.

>>5378206
This is one blog post from one person. Besides, it won't matter, because they need the scientific and medical world's help for their transitions and you cannot create biotech that does sex changes without the concept of biological sex.

Here are some facts which are true:

>men can wear dresses
>men can enjoy the colour pink
>men can act feminine
>if you remove a man's penis he probably won't take it well

The last doesn't contradict the previous ones. There's no connection. By the same token:

>women can wear suits
>women can enjoy the colour blue
>women can act masculine
>if you remove a woman's vagina she'll probably be quite upset

Again, no issue.

MtF's are women, and so, they are quite upset at the lack of vagina and seek surgery to fix it. FtM's are men and therefore are quite upset at the lack of penis and seek surgery to fix it. The same goes for breasts/hormone levels/etc, all to varying degrees person to person. The whole issue of "men are supposed to be masculine and not show emotion" and stuff is an unrelated issue.

Also a penis being feminine is stupid. Don't listen to whoever's telling you that. Hormones change the way it looks but I dunno.

Gender is bullshit, but we're mired in it from the second we pop out. It's inescapable. Some people really identify with cues that weren't targeted at them.

>>5378009
How girls act and dress varies by area, likewise their hobbies and interests, that's all social gender roles.
Neurological research has found a structural difference in trans people and to a lesser extent gay people and the current idea is that it messes with the brain-body map of how we identify our bodies and how they should be. Neither wigs nor makeup are necessary to be trans.

Mainstream feminism does not have a problem with trannies, it's just the smaller group of TERFs left over from the second wave that now teams up with the conservative right to push their agendas because libfems wont accept their bigotry.

>>5378195
That is what terfs say and why they are so anti-trans, because trannies don't fit into their theories and agenda, trannies and feminists who support them do not say that.

>>5378217
If an alien civilisation found us right now they'd either put the entire solar system in quarantaine for an undefined amount of time or immediately blow us up just to be safe.

>>5383878
Gender is 100% real. Some people are just retarded and autistic. That's you, bro.

Some of you seem to make the implication that saying something is a construct means someone can freely choose to "build" themselves that way. As if since it's a construct it implies choice.

Someone explain to me pre-op transsexuals then with no intention of getting Bottom surgery. They're just playing pretend then, seeing as gender roles are just social constructs?

>>5385149
unironically yes. not having genital dysphoria is a completely foreign and ridiculous concept to me.

>>5378009
OP

You are trying to clump a couple of different flavors of SJW into one and trying to make sense of it.

>>5385149
A G P
G
P

>>5385149
> Someone explain to me pre-op transsexuals then with no intention of getting Bottom surgery.

They're sex hybrids. Pretty much living proof that sex is nonbinary.

> They're just playing pretend then, seeing as gender roles are just social constructs?

We can't know anything about their gender roles or expression solely from the fact that they're mtf. Your statement makes no sense. The only thing mtf tells us is that they've customized their sexual reality.

>>5385149
Lack of genital dysphoria? Maybe some are not pleased with the offers currently presented? I've heard my fair share of horror shows so I can see why there were be mtf not keen on bottom surgery. I don't know how you made the logical leap to say they're pretending or having their bits is a gender role, genitalia doesn't inherently make someone conform to a role, come on.

>>5385175
I see. But they're not really mtf then, are they? As you're saying, they're hybrid, with no intention of becoming a woman. Not that you can become a woman, since there is no definition of it anymore than deliberately choosing the label, since neither appearance or behaviour is indicative of being a woman in a non-biological sense.

>>5385196
> But they're not really mtf then, are they?
This is like saying that "you're not really traveling west unless you go all the way from Boston to San Fran". The direction is what matters, not the destination.

As long as you're male and take steps to feminize your sexual reality, you're going from male to female. Even if you don't go all the way.

> with no intention of becoming a woman
Don't conflate 'female' and 'woman'. A woman is someone who presents themselves in a way that society calls 'woman'. Female just means your body's sexual expression. This is precisely what I mean by we can't know anything about the person's gender from their sex alone. Gender isn't sex.

>>5385206
Actually, its more like claiming you're going to San Francisco when you only want to the next state, from where im standing. Which is totally fine, except you now want people to call you a native San fran inhabitant.

Your second point is Confusing, because transsexuals and lgbt people are the one claiming there arent anything you can label as woman, while simultaneously striving for stereotypical/oldfashioned woman ideals.

Disclaimer: there is no difference between woman/female in my language, so i apologize if i mix the words by mistake.

>>5385240
> Actually, its more like claiming you're going to San Francisco when you only want to the next state, from where im standing

But the analogy was that east and west are sex, not cities. The problem with this thinking is that female encompasses a huge range on the biological spectrum. You can be 'more' or 'less' female, it isn't like a light switch where the only positions are on and off. It's a slider that goes from one to the other but can stop anywhere on that line. You ever notice that there are some people who only kinda look female and some people that only kinda look male? Those people are pretty much right in the middle of the spectrum, but if we started giving them hormones, they'd start sliding one way or the other. Basically, anything from androgynous all the way to hourglass with huge tits counts as female, and anything from androgynous all the way to rock hard masculine body builder counts as male.

This is what we mean by 'sex is nonbinary'. Yes, there is only male and female on the spectrum, but it's still a spectrum.

> Your second point is Confusing, because transsexuals and lgbt people are the one claiming there arent anything you can label as woman, while simultaneously striving for stereotypical/oldfashioned woman ideals.

It's generalizing to say this. You can't really lump them all together.

> there is no difference between woman/female in my language, so i apologize if i mix the words by mistake.

This explains a great deal. It is very important to make the distinction, or you'll always get confused. Think of it like this: when you go around talking to people you meet on the street, you don't go around pulling their pants down to check what's there. You just make a guess and decide to call them either a woman or a man. But you don't actually know what recreational equipment they have. That quick, inaccurate judgement is precisely gender.

>>5385240
I'd like to share my personal experience that, while just one in a million different ones, can shed some light on the issue, I hope.
I was perceived as a male and thus as a boy when I was born. 20 something years later I start getting the drive to get in touch with more feminine things. For the time I only did it in the privacy of my home, alone or with my girlfriend I had what I think would be perceived as an ambiguous appearance. For example, I would like to wear a dress and at the same time I maintained my beard, which I enjoyed I saw no reason to trim. And it wasn't just cross-dressing since most of the times with a dress I felt like a girl. The dress for me is a personal example of what helps me feel like the girl I commonly wish to be. And I do have a penis which I never did feel the need to replace. The only people who see it are those who I am intimate enough to know won't judge me about my gender. My girlfriend can accept me as a girl regardless.
I think what helped me feel I could be a girl was probably my approximation with the notion that gender is not tied up to sex (commonly referred to as gender is a construct). It allowed me to realize I could be a girl even with this that I've learned to be a male body. And sure enough, the more I believed it, the more feminine I felt my own body was. And this was without any body modifications, just a dress.
But when I started going out as a girl, things drastically changed in my appearance. I wanted people to see me as the girl I felt like and thus I resorted to classic girl stuff, so to speak. I waxed off all my appearing hair. I felt I had to use a lipstick every time I was out and about. So I'd hope would make clear to everyone that I was a girl. Not to myself, but to others.

>>5385375
Just to conclude what I wanted to say, we are all more or less submerged in ancient notions that abide us by what sex and gender is. I myself have felt this in the way I described: on my own (or with my gf, who I felt could see me for who I was) I could be a girl almost regardless of my appearance. In the outside world, suddenly that doesn't cut it, since even a shade of a beard can be enough for a male pronoun to shatter my girl identity. And that is general terms how my sex, appearance (gender expression) and gender identity interact with each other and form who I am.

I'm not an expert in this matter, but here's what I think: if you feel that you are female, you are female. You can wear whatever clothes you like, have any kinds of hobbies or act any way you like and still feel female, and the feeling is valid - you are female. I, personally, have no idea how feeling male or female feels like, I'm still not sure about my own gender, but from what my friends described, you just feel comfortable with the word and feel happy when you are called "she" or "a girl", and that's how you know.
As for penises, i'm pretty sure they can be feminine - it's just that some transwomen are uncomfortable with having them so they want them gone, while others are okay and see them as a part of their female body. It's pretty personal and depends on the woman in question.
"Born in the wrong body" basically means that you are unhappy with how your body is and want it to change, become more like you feel it should be. Sometimes trans people are fine with their bodies and just want people to use a different name and pronouns for them, and feel safe wearing whatever they want and doing what they like without people freaking out because of gender norms which are associated with these things.
As for why some transwomen take on traditionally feminine appearance and hobbies after transitioning, it might be because they genuinely like these things but were afraid to get into them because people saw them as men before and would judge them, or it might be because they are trying to prove they are indeed women (I think I've seen a post here from a person who works at a gender clinic, and they wouldn't give transwomen means to transition unless they have been wearing traditionally feminine clothes and doing traditionally feminine things to prove themselves).
As for women being underprivileged, I think it's about how society treats people it sees as women or feminine people, regardless of how they see themselves - they all get the underprivileged treatment.

>>5378009
>If all of these are true, how can someone feel like they were "born in the wrong body"? Like a tranny deciding that he should have been a woman all along, why does he put on wigs/make-up and wear "girl clothes" that apparently don't exist, and change his mannerisms to act "girly"?

"x is a social construct" doesnt mean something doesnt exist. it means its a social construct. stop being obtuse

>>5385402
>As for why some transwomen take on traditionally feminine appearance and hobbies after transitioning, it might be because they genuinely like these things but were afraid to get into them because people saw them as men before and would judge them, or it might be because they are trying to prove they are indeed women
All these are reasons for me personally to take on a traditional feminine look; the only thing that I don't personally feel the need is sexual re-designation surgery.

>>5385375
I'm happy for you that you seem content in living your life. But I at the same time wonder, what do you mean with "feeling like a girl"? Why is wearing a dress something that's so intensely female? Are you saying that it's because of social conventions? While I'm happy for you, at the same time, if I saw you with your big bushy beard and a dress on, I would never ever consider you a woman. I would think you're a confused man.

>>5385292
I have no problems with the sliding scale of masculine vs feminine, but when we're talking about genders, I think there needs to be some kind of limit where you're not just some guy putting on a sunhat and wearing a handbag, and then get mad that people don't call you "she". What kind of "feminine" things can a guy be doing before he's a mtf? Is it okay to do horse-riding, sewing, home gardening, or does that mean that you've taken the first steps, although not mentally, to becoming a woman? It all feels very reliant on these stereotypical gender clichés. An intense desire to become your "right" sex I feel is what really makes the difference. And having surgery is the epitomy of that desire. Otherwise it just seems kinda...halfassed.

>>5385441
It's very hard for me to explain what it means to feel like a girl or like a boy... I'm sure a dress making me feel like a girl has to do with social conventions. But that does not mean it is something superficial, you see? Again, I'm speaking for myself only, but when I want others to see me as a girl, the dress is more important than my non-displayed genitalia. And personally I know that having others approval of who I am can make a world's difference in how I perceive myself. By that I mean that it is very hard for me to consider myself a girl if other people don't.

I think this is more or less true to most people, since who we are doesn't only depend on ourselves alone, but rather it depends of an ongoing life of everyday relationships that establishes and reestalishes our possible self.

>>5385441
>>5385502
But hey! Different people need different things to feel well with themselves, to feel better with their gender. It can be very difficult to realize that from afar. I guess you're looking for a clear explanation but there isn't one in my opinion. It's not about doing this or that and thus you will feel like a guy or a gal. We see similar portraits of transgender people because we live in the same world and abide by similar notions of masculine and feminine. But that is not to say people have the same kind of relationship with this stuff, quite on the contrary. The more a person's gender expression / appearance distances itself form what most people consider a person with that gender should look like, the harder it is for people to understand and accept that as a valid gender identity.

Non-binary trans and queer people are effectively proving with their own lives that there are other, new possibilities for our identities that do not conform with what is commonly accepted and understood. It is a ongoing dialogue that is leading to the establishment of new identities, I think.

>>5385441
>I think there needs to be some kind of limit where you're not just some guy putting on a sunhat and wearing a handbag, and then get mad that people don't call you "she".

Someone who does this is going to run afoul of society no matter how angry they get. The fact of the matter is that how we gender people is up to us. That's why gender is a social construct.

> What kind of "feminine" things can a guy be doing before he's a mtf
Completely irrelevant. The only thing that makes someone an mtf is that they want to change their body. Gender is irrelevant when dealing with sex. Pronouns are irrelevant.

> An intense desire to become your "right" sex I feel is what really makes the difference. And having surgery is the epitomy of that desire. Otherwise it just seems kinda...halfassed.

And what if the 'right' sex for me is half female? What you're saying is that *you* personally think that only the ideal, complete binary ends of the spectrum are 'right' sexes, which is incredibly arrogant.