This is the first time I've been on this board, but I need to have a serious discussion and this seems like the best place to post this.
I've been fighting with my friends a lot lately because I'm a firm believer that you need to have dysphoria in order to be trans, because I don't spend my time fighting with people about how it isn't a choice, only to have people come along and completely ruin that argument by acting like it is. Apparently this makes me truscum, but I can not for the life of me wrap my head around how people can think that this line of thinking is okay. If I could choose not to be trans then I would in an instant, it pisses me off to see people wear the trans label like it's the latest fashion trend.
I'm not posting this to have angry arguments, I really want to know how many people there are that agree with me, versus how many oppose me. Let's have a civil discussion here.
>>5344355
I agree with you
>>5344355
Being trans basically means that either you don't want to be the gender you were born, or you would rather be a gender that isn't the gender you were born with.
As a result, it can encompass a lot of people, including those that get little or no dysphoria. This is because even though someone may not have dysphoria, transitioning can make them feel happier with their body and themselves.
>>5344390
The problem I have with this argument is that there's no reason to not want to be the gender you were born if you have no dysphoria. Why would you fix something that isn't broken, y'know?
>>5344355
Also some people try to look at being trans as not being a terrible thing that you should hate and hate yourself for it.
This is because it's really not healthy to think that being trans is terrible if you are as a transperson
So as more people start to establish that being trans is a good thing that should be celebrated, it doesn't become a kind of phenomenon where people have to feel like they need to have extreme dysphoria to be trans. More people then start questioning their gender and believing they are trans. There's going to be lots of people who don't neatly fit into boxes, and as trans people become more celebrated, the lines will start to blur between trans people and cis people.
I think it's a good thing. Some transpeople choose to view transness as something good and something that we don't have to apologize for.
Others like lots of 4channers and a decent amount of redittors rather view it like it it's terrible and that we should hate ourselves for it, to justify ourselves to other people. This can make it more "elitist" (not saying anyone here is automatically truscum or anything), and make it harder to accept people who don't necessarily fit all the boxes that fit into our worldview
>>5344355
Yes
end of subject
This shouldn't even be a discussion
I hate tumblr
>>5344405
The way I see it, deciding to transition is a cost-benefit analysis.
If you are happier if you transition and explore your gender, then you should transition. It's as simple as that. Sooner or later, definitions and labels have to start to change and transform over time. I think you have an oldschool definition of what a transperson is, and in the present day that definition is being expanded, as well as welcomed by lots of people
>>5344355
I made some posts in this thread >>5342417 about how dysphoria isn't always obvious for a person. TL;DR: You can repress so much to a point where you think your wrong gender qualities are good because it's supposed to be good.
Though, if someone wants to transition without not being really trans, they can, it's their body, but they really should not wear the trans label. And if you're literally put no effort into transitioning, you should not wear the trans label either, but I guess it's okay if you're clear you're not doing anything about it, just don't fucking expect people to treat you as the gender you really are.
>>5344465
>And if you're literally put no effort into transitioning, you should not wear the trans label either, but I guess it's okay if you're clear you're not doing anything about it, just don't fucking expect people to treat you as the gender you really are.
You've*.
But uh, what I meant is if you're clear about being a non-transitioner trans person, it's okay to say you are just that. Don't wanna be confusing.
>>5344436
How can you view it as a good thing at all?
>>5344355
Sometimes it is a choice. There are a lot of people that would jump at the opportunity to switch genders and now that trans issues are coming out into the spotlight, they have an available outlet. If they're happy and know what they're doing, I don't see a problem with them transitioning, but they shouldn't try to speak for all trans people and say its a choice.
This is a serious problem with the term 'transgender'. It's an umbrella term that includes everyone that is GNC(gender non-conforming) but the media is using it to describe transsexuals with gender dysphoria. While the descriptor is accurate, the overlap results in them being lumped in with all sorts of other wacky GNC people and its partially why the dominant public perception of transsexualism is largely skewed and inaccurate.
So yes, you can be transgender and not have dysphoria but transsexualism is a medical issue first and foremost. While it does have considerable overlap with transgenderism, there should be some distinction and that distinction shouldn't be blurred.
But... what is gender dysphoria if not just the desire to be a different gender?
>>5344355
99% sure your friends go on tumblr.
Answer is yes, you need dysphoria to be trans. If I could choose not to be transgender, I would.
>>5344506
The only good thing I can think of for mtfs is not having periods
I can't think of any upsides for ftm
>>5344355
ehhhh
i'll say no. if you transitioned without dysphoria and live as the other gender you're trans, but...why would anyone do that? i don't mean the genderqueer shit i mean the full on transition
>>5344355
I don't know. I don't think physical dysphoria, aka I'm disgusted and horrified by my own body features is necessary to be trans.
Social dysphoria, aka people thinking I'm a man/woman and treating me as such makes me want to kill myself, counts just as much.
But yeah, I think you need one (or both) to be trans.
>>5344506
I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying that we shouldn't hate ourselves for it, and that we shouldn't feel ashamed for being trans.
>>5344509
I don't like having transgender as an umbrella term though, that was another thing I got a bunch of shit for. Like on that TDOV thing tumblr did, where non-binary people were posting their selfies in the tag that was supposed to be for trans people. Like that bothered me so much, not because I dislike non-binary people, but because I don't understand why they wouldn't fight for their own day of visibility, why are we all lumped into one umbrella term?
>>5344436
The movement pushing to establish that its a good thing is part of a backlash after decades of society pushing it into the shadows as something that should be hated and reviled. It's similar to how the gay pride movement sparked. If society hadn't been sp shit about it we wouldn't have this problem.
Personally, I believe it shouldn't be viewed as inherently good or bad. In a moral context at least. Its just what it is, a condition. Like left handedness or homosexuality. There should be no shame in it.
>>5344355
desu, I agree with you. People who aren't dysphoric aren't trans, they're gender-nonconforming.
Unlike most people, I don't think that makes them shit. Being gender-nonconforming is incredibly valid. They're just not trans.
They're used to people saying "You're shit if you don't have dysphoria" and I disagree with that conclusion. They're worthwhile people and their experiences are important, they just aren't trans.
>>5344587
Maybe you disagree, but I wouldn't mind them posting their selfies if they are medically transitioning, even if they are "non-binary". It's the ones that look like girls, present and live as girls 100% of the time, but then turn around and want crazy pronouns and to feel oppressed that get me.
>>5344571
I don't think we should be ashamed to be trans, but I also don't think that it should be seen as something "cool" to be either, that's where the problem comes into play.
When my dad, who is 70, has finally just started to accept that this isn't a phase or a trend, then hears that suddenly every kid is running around and choosing to be trans, it makes him question the validity of my identity. The older generation (AKA our grandparents and parents) have a hard enough time accepting us without these little tumblr kids using being trans as a way to rebel against their parents, or because being "cis" makes you a loser in tumblr's eyes.
>>5344610
That's the problem with the people on tumblr though, 99% of the people I see posting their selfies aren't planning on any sort of medical transition.
And jesus do not get me started on cutesy otherkin pronouns.
>>5344620
I guess I just don't get how someone can have social dysphoria without physical dysphoria. The reason I have social dysphoria is because being misgendered reminds me that my body is wrong. I don't understand where else it would come from. Just wanting to be treated as the opposite gender? But why? I don't understand.
>>5344567
I know personally, I don't get much body dysphoria unless I'm depressed already and looking at myself in the mirror. My dysphoria is more about my face, and having anxiety attacks any time I have to leave the house because I know I won't pass, despite being on HRT, it's more a feeling of uselessness and mental dysphoria, since I really do like my body most of the time.
>>5344615
I totally agree with what you're saying.
Have you met people that use being trans to be seen as cool though? I just haven't met a lot of people like that. I think everyone here should understand that tumblr isn't terrible, and if you're hearing about shitty trans people on tumblr, it may be biased because of 4chan trolls and groupthink.
The majority of trans people that i've met that didn't fit a typical definition of a trans person are actually super chill and nice and I don't think represent transpeople poorly
>>5344672
I use tumblr, but I don't go on as much as I used to BECAUSE of those people. I know transtrending itself is a whole other topic, but I find it hard to believe that there are really this many kids aged 13-16 out of nowhere who are just trans.
I'm not saying anything about them as people, because I've also met ones who are respectful and nice, it just goes back to that issue of making the trans community itself look like a club that anyone can just waltz into. Like hey bring a friend who wasn't trans, they'll see what a good time we all have and join our ranks.
I don't know, maybe I'm just a crotchety old fuck at heart, yelling at these trans kids to get off my lawn, but this is just how I feel.
i think you need dysphoria to be trans in a medical sense... but i mean obviously if someone wanted to transition without that they should be able to cuz it's their body and whatnot... but i think the distinction should be made clear, and people might need a separate word to understand it really...
cuz it's not the same when it's a choice as opposed to it being a necessity for someone to live a happier life...
>>5344633
Hey dont ask me I got no clue about anyone's dysphoria but my own, and mine is just complete and utter negligence towards my male body to the point where it counts as self-harm.
>>5344355
Dysphoria is necessary to medically transition (medication, surgery etc), that's it. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not right or /pol/
>>5344355
The issue with people saying you don't need dysphoria to be trans is that those idiots think that unless someone is visibly drowning in their dysphoria they don't have it but they still see people like that who are transitioning, so they assume dysphoria is an unnecessary thing.
Dysphoria is common ground for all trans people but its not experienced in the same way by all trans people nor is it experienced in the same severity.
>>5344355
No anyone can transition, having gender dysphoria just makes transitioning harder so if you don't experience it then your transition will be a lot smoother. Anyone can take hrt and dress as the opposite gender, there is no special circumstance where only trans people can transition and benefit from it.
transition is the treatment for gender dysphoria
everything else is AGP fetishism
>>5345609
It's possible to want to be the opposite gender for reasons other than dysphoria or a fetish.
>>5345495
except for the fact you will probably give yourself dysphoria by taking the hormones.
>>5345679
Some people seem to be fine with or without hormones.
>2016
>Adhering to gender as a concept which dictates your physical appearance, sexual expression and orientation, the way you feel
WOW GOOD LUCK WITH LIFE GUYS. HOPE YOU GET YOUR GENDERS SORTED OUT. YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
Sorry that some Trans people are spoiling your arguements how selfish of them. Do you realise how bad you sound, like a spoilt child who can't get their own way. So you don't understand some people so they're obviously wrong and you wish to label them how you see fit, from a trans person I'd expect better, do you like it when other people label you?
Being Trans is what's in your head, hating your private parts is Dysphoria, so while some do have severe Dysphoria a lot us aren't that bothered, would we have a vagina if possible most of us would say hell yes, but its a huge surgery and some of us aren't prepared to butcher our bodies, I know two Trans peops who had SRS and they both have serious health issues now.
>>5346012
>I know two Trans peops who had SRS and they both have serious health issues now.
Friend who had SRS 4 years ago has basically no depth and some bleeding issues. She went to Suporn as well, so it's not like she went to some Mexican back alley surgeon. She's admitted now that she felt really pressured to get it done to be "complete" and to get her legal documents changed (can't generally be done without surgery). If she could do it over she would just keep her dick.She's managed to make friends with some other girls who had similar outcomes which helps a little, but they're really quiet about the issues they have.
Its more common than most people would have you believe, but it's a sensitive topic and very few are going to badmouth someone for something they dropped a significant amount of money on and bought into wholeheartedly. This is why I think regret numbers go underreported. No matter how many revisions you offer someone, they have to have the ability to get there and the emotional stability to admit that something is wrong and needs to be fixed, something you may not have when you're a tranny who could barely afford SRS the first time.
A trans gender person is someone who takes steps in order to transition their body to appear like a gender other then their own.
Someone *can* be trans without dysphoria. With that said it's perfectly reasonable to think someone who does transition without feeling any dysphoria is a complete and utter fucking retard.
But you can't really say someone who was born a guy, that takes hormones, dresses and presents as a woman, isn't trans.
The unfortunate reality is that the term trans gender is an umbrella term. So regardless of whether or not you want to be generalized with the loonies you will be.
Your best bet to segregation, if that's what you desire, is to come up with a respectful term specifically for trans gender people who suffer from legitimate dysphoria. But that kind of segregation opens the door to scary standards both imposed by society and by medical professionals. Fuck, doctors already have these weird standards for dealing with trans people.
It's been discussed before and I'm sure it will be discussed thousands of more times since this is /lgbt/ after all, but if you don't want to deal with all of this bullshit then you need to stop identifying as trans and just work to become stealth and living your life as a woman, instead of latching onto the /lgbt/ community.
because you are full of shit and believe in a lie. You clearly don't think you are an effeminate male so you are clearly completely delusional
Being some variety of sick fuckery is needed to want to mangle your genitals irreparably yeah.
>>5346184
In my opinion you're conflicting transgender and transsexual.
>take baby child
>raise it gender neutral as possible
>let it make all gender decisions without pressure
>put it on puberty blockers just because
>allow it to choose puberty when old enough
>body never develops weird
>never forced to go to boy scouts
would even be dysphoric?
>>5348889
Would probably be pissed off on missing their natural puberty if they were cis
>>5344355
plain and simple. You can be transgender without gender dysphoria. That just means you don't have a psychological need to transition.
>>5348937
i dont think dysphoria is necessary to be cis tho
>>5344405
Actually if you aren't at normal levels of happy, then something is broken.
>>5345495
One of the idiots.
>>5344390
That'd be good and all of it wouldn't end up fucking with insurance coverage and the narrative.
If you're a retarded fag that doesn't have dysphoria, then go fuck yourself and call yourself something else. You're not entitled to people buying into your shit just because you're a stupid fuck.
It's like cutting your own working legs and asking handicap people to feel bad for you. Being trans isn't a fashion choice, and that kind of argument is what cost us our insurance coverages in the first place. At best you're a fucking Drag Queen
>>5349782
This anon gets it.
>>5346184
>a respectful term specifically for trans gender people who suffer from legitimate dysphoria.
Shit this makes me want to create a new term, just to disassociate ourselves from the growing amount of pronouns and just keep things simple. I wouldn't mind raiding tumblr/twitter to make that happen.
>>5349782
it doesn't affect insurance coverage at all, though. nondysphoric trans people do not have the mental disorder gender dysphoria, so they don't need insurance to cover any of their stuff. physical transition is more of an extreme body mod for them, and i see no reason to prevent them from going through with it as long as they're unlikely to have regrets towards irreversible changes.
>>5349822
another thread that i think is still active was suggesting the abbreviation dtg for "dysphoric transgender". it's short & doesn't take much explanation with people who know what transness is.
>>5347020
conflating
>>5351519
I already killed one of these threads off.
Quit with the fucking trans olympics, trying to prove who is the most trans. You've got enough enemies in the "normal" world without trying take shots at each other.
>>5351798
i... don't feel superior over having dysphoria at all; my motivation is to promote a neutral term instead of "trutrans" bullshit. we do need a clear way to differentiate between the two groups, and just claiming that only dysphorics should be called "trans" while nondysphorics don't get any suggestions as to what they should alternatively be called isn't going to cut it.
>>5344355
dys·pho·ri·a
disˈfôrēə
noun
a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life.
No I do not think one needs to be uncomfortable with themselves to be trans. I think someone can be trans without getting hung up on things they don't feel are important, like appearance.
>>5351939
I also think one can be trans without putting themselves through the endless endeavor of "transitioning".
Some people just don't care about what other people think of them, yet live perfectly happy lives.
>>5351939
>>5351972
Thankfully someone else seems to get it.
>>5351871
>we do need a clear way to differentiate between the two groups
No, no you don't, not at all. Maybe medical professionals MIGHT need to differentiate but why do you? And let me be clear, I'm not speaking about you directly, I mean this whole philosophy. You're all just trans, so be trans, and support other people who are trans. Life is shitty enough without having to put up more walls and barriers betwwen yourselves.
>>5352039
okay fuck off with your "you don't ever need to specify your experience to others, just rely solely on vague expansive terms and nothing will ever go wrong" bullshit. specific, unambiguous language helps greatly in almost all contexts, and this is no exception. you can stick to trans-without-adjectives if you like, but don't try to stifle others from expressing the specifics of their experiences.
>>5344355
Literally the only requirement. Fuck off.
>>5352039
also, specificity is not a barrier. i don't need to be literally identical to others to show solidarity & support for their struggles, and forced cooperation through stifling individuality is never a healthy practice. ignoring race doesn't actually help eliminate racism, and ignoring the differences between dysphoric & nondysphoric trans people will do nothing to reduce cissexism.
>>5352103
what about people who experience gender euphoria and socially & physically transition?
>>5352039
>all this butt hurt
Well looks like somebody isn't trans and is mad about it.
>>5352147
i'd be happy to not have to argue with people as close-minded as you anymore, to be honest
>>5352134
No butthurt, just frustration. And your right, I'm not trans but you are wrong about about me being mad. Why the hell would I want to be? Trans peeps go through fucking hell at times and I've got enough other shit to deal with.
0/10 insult anon, better luck next time
>>5352039
>You're all just trans, so be trans, and support other people who are trans.
Exactly. Trans people who obsess over superficial things are the ones who maintain the mental illness stigma. They ARE mentally ill, but not because they are trans, but because they obsess so much about appearance. They attack other trans people by putting the validity of their trans status in question just because they choose to not transition a certain way that fits their approval.
This is hurting the cause and needs to stop.
>>5345679
>except for the fact you will probably give yourself dysphoria by taking the hormones
Nope hrt doesn't give cis people gender dysphoria like trans people exp, there are a lot of cis people who have taken it for non gender dysphoric reasons and felt fine besides some mood swings but that's to be expected with estrogen.
>>5345793
This too.
>>5349288
mad that you aren't special?
>>5352171
>I'm not trans
Yeah whatever you say hon.
8/10 butt rage, get some ointment anon.
>>5352156
*Closed (ftfy) minded? HA!
I'm about as open minded as someone can get. I'm perfectly capable of seeing all the differences, differences in levels and manifestations of dysphoria, but can also see that it's many different roads to the same place. This constant need to seperate oneself from everyone else and obsession over labels is what's led to bullshit like the Tumblr snowflakes and their madeup pronoun words, genders, and sexualities.
This anon >>5352175 gets it
>>5352200
Kek, so far of the mark it's untrue. Not even "hon" is an applicable insult (not that it isn't ridiculous itself, creating divisions yet again)
I'm actually a cis male and perfectly fine with that, just as I'm fine with whatever gender, sexuality, whatever you all want to be.
>inb4 pathetic attempt to rile me by calling me a chaser
>>5352204
yeah no, someone who wants everyone to be forced to assimilate into a larger, unfitting whole rather than freely organizing themselves into groups that actually fit (and smugly corrects minor spelling mistakes in an argument) is pretty damn closed minded. why does it matter to you what i call myself? i've already made it clear that i don't need to pretend i'm identical to others to show them respect, so that argument's out. tribalism is not a good trait, and instead of trying to force a larger tribe we should be encouraging critical thinking towards people who initially seem strange and worrying due to their differences from us.
your john lennon kumbaya bullshit is harmful and ineffective, and i hope you eventually realize that.
>>5344443
This
>>5353601
>assimilate into a larger, unfitting whole
No, it's not unfitting because you ARE all trans
>freely organizing
You're not freely organizing, you're actively trying to create more divisions between yourselves
>why does it matter to you what i call myself?
It doesn't particularly, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. You're creating divisions between yourself and others who share more in common with you than differences between you.
>don't need to pretend i'm identical to others to show them respect
Of course you don't, and I haven't said you should. I'm saying you all DO have differences, yet despite those differences you have more in common as a whole, and rather than focus on what makes you different, support each other based on your similarities.
The distinctions between you all are important and valid, but what's more relevant are the commonalities that the outside world sees and seeks to attack you over, the commonalities that they use to differentiate you from them.
Call it kumbaya bullshit if you like, all I'm saying is instead of playing their game of separation, play one of togetherness.
>>5354064
why are you so insistent that you know better than us how we should describe ourselves? why do you refuse to listen or respond when i say that i'm not trying to "create divisions" with people i'm different from, but simply acknowledge that difference? why must we base our respect for each other on arbitrary similarities rather than recognizing that people different than us can be good people worthy of respect and support?
i can be "together" with people without pretending to be identical to them, and forcing disparate groups to pretend they're identical is a great way to foster resentment and the divisions you're so afraid of. you can see this in single-issue activist groups (gay rights, civil rights, feminist, environmentalist, etc. activists) that insist on only ever looking at issues relevant to everyone within their group. when feminist/civil rights groups refuse to confront racism/sexism that affects non-white women, for example, those groups start getting very white and very male, respectively. sometimes the non-white women who felt uncomfortable in those groups find more fitting groups to belong to, but often they give up on fighting for their rights altogether because it's just too difficult to attempt alone. this is why so many single-issue groups nowadays are trying to show solidarity to other, unrelated groups, so that they can not only make more allies outside the group but also make their own group more accessible to certain people are supposed to be helped by it.
i would have no issue working within a general trans group that included all sorts of trans people different from me. but i want it to be clear when our struggles are different, so they don't just assume mine must be the same as theirs, as humans tend to do.
>>5345469
>The issue with people saying you don't need dysphoria to be trans is that those idiots think that unless someone is visibly drowning in their dysphoria they don't have it but they still see people like that who are transitioning, so they assume dysphoria is an unnecessary thing.
>Dysphoria is common ground for all trans people but its not experienced in the same way by all trans people nor is it experienced in the same severity.
You pretty much summed up what I was about to post here!
Dysphoria is a varying and often fickle bitch, it's experienced differently by people, can come in waves of "jesus i hate my vag/dick/tits and i'm gonna mutiliate myself right now" before suddenly turning to "hey, i'm actually kinda fine just annoyed by having a dick/vagina/breasts and wish they were gone"
>>5345667
Yeah, internalized misogyny/misandry. Other than that, you're either a fetishist or are suppressing and denying your dysphoria because you feel it's supposed to be a blown-up violent hatred of your genitals rather than discomfort, annoyance, mild dislike, dislike of being treated as your birth gender, depression that you don't have the non-sexual features (ie. ftms and wanting to be tall, mtfs wanting to be short) of the opposite gender as well as the genitals and secondary-sex characteristics.
>>5344355
To be transexual? no. The only thing you need to be transexual is a desire to customize your sexual expression. To be transgendered? Yes. Transgendered means 'person with gender dysphoria'
>>5344405
> Why would you fix something that isn't broken, y'know?
So you believe that only things worth doing are things that are strictly necessary? Do you enjoy art or music at all?
What you are saying is that customizing the self has no value.
>>5348889
Probably not as dysphoric as it could be. If it were an FtM it'd probably still be dysphoric about the lack of dick and if MtF if it wanted a vagina it'd have to get SRS.
>>5352114
The fuck is gender euphoria? It sounds like some shit a sissy would say when they're being the little girl
>>5352175
>Trans people [s]who obsess over[/s] are superficial
ftfy. I hate my community more than anything. We're terrible to each other and we deserve whatever terrible shit other people do to us
>>5344436
I am really trying hard to follow this path as I transition. Celebrating life is so much more positive. Sometimes I get insecure, but I know that happens to everyone so it is okay. Things are going really well though. Social life is finally blossoming for me.
>>5354351
it's just feeling strong positive emotions towards being or transitioning towards the target gender. a lot of trans people with gender dysphoria also experience gender euphoria even if they don't necessarily use the term (and some don't; sometimes the positive emotions are simply relief towards the eradicated/lessened dysphoria). feeling great about looking like or being treated as a wo/man is basically what gender euphoria is; it's not unique to fetishists at all.
>>5354400
>positive emotion towards being or transitioning towards the target gender
Why do we need a term for this again? Social dysphoria exists to describe people who don't necessarily feel bodily dysphoria but have an avid dislike or discomfort for being seen and treated as their birth gender.
If you don't have social and/or body dysphoria, but you do have this ~gender euphoria~ you're not trans.
You've either got internalized misogyny/misandry, trending, or are a fetishist.
>>5354450
oh look its the terms police. "Don't use words I don't certify first because I am god"
>>5354463
Explain why the term is needed instead of sperging out, shoving words in my mouth, and just being plain retarded.
>>5354482
because it explains why some people choose to transition without having dysphoria.
>>5354494
But those people are all fetishists! Because their behavior makes me feel icky!
>>5354494
Not really. It seems more along the lines of "opposite of gender/social dysphoria" rather than a reason WHY people without dysphoria transition.
And frankly, if you don't have dysphoria you are not trans. Why would you transition if you don't have dysphoria? That's still not being properly explained.
Why would someone who does not get distressed over their sex or being treated like their assigned gender transition?
Liking it when some dude calls you sir, but not minding being called ma'am isn't a valid reason for transition.
>>5354525
i don't think my explanation is actually insufficient here, i think you're just refusing to accept it as a possibility. why is feeling better about yourself not a valid reason to transition? it's not a valid reason to get health insurance to pay for it, to be certain, but it's no less valid than any other extreme body mod. expecting others to use a new name & pronouns when you feel no dysphoria towards the old ones would be unreasonable and unfair, but nondysphoric trans people don't necessarily have any such expectations.
>>5354224
I've already said, I'm not attacking you or any one else individualy. I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying but I'm trying to get people to see the bigger picture. I may be posting in response to your comments, but my responses are to the community as a whole. In terms of just you and me, I don't think we're so different in our views but you seem to take everything I'm saying as combative and respond in an unecessarily contrarian manner.
This is the very essence of what I'm getting at. The majority of what I see posted on this board is negativity towards others and trying to tear others down rather than build yourselves and each other up. This may or may not apply to you specifically, but it is prevalent across the whole LGBT board. The way you yourself are responding to me seems like you have some kind of persecution complex. I'm not criticizing you, I'm not saying your wrong in how you feel, I just want you to see that maybe there's a better way. If you do, great, I just hope others will read this and the point I'm trying to make too.
>>5354557
>hormones and surgeries are just an extreme body mod
>>5354525
> And frankly, if you don't have dysphoria you are not trans
'trans' is a prefix, not a whole word. Like has been mentioned in this thread, you can be transexual without being transgendered. Trans could be either. Don't assume.
> Why would you transition if you don't have dysphoria? That's still not being properly explained.
Are all of your motivations negative? Do you have any intrinsic motivations, or do you only act to avoid suffering? This is like asking why someone would paint a blank canvas if they didn't think a blank canvas was ugly.
You can want to change without hating your current situation. Maybe not you personally, but others can.
>>5354571
This is actually true. It's a difference in amount, not a difference in kind.
I don't think you need to hate yourself and want to die etc because of your body. But if you would rather transition to another gender than be the one you were born as, and consider yourself trans, then you have dysphoria. I don't see how someone could be more comfortable with their original body and still claim they're trans, but I don't know if I've ever seen that (besides people who can't physically transition/it would make their life worse somehow)
>>5344587
i think there is a point where someone "nonbinary" is trans, like if they're on hormones and dressing in clothes not for their birth gender etc but still use they pronouns, that's enough that they would get the same shit binary trans people do. but if it's essentially a cis girl who claims to be "not totally a girl but female-aligned" or whatever, that's not trans.
>>5354659
>But if you would rather transition to another gender than be the one you were born as, and consider yourself trans, then you have dysphoria.
dysphoria - A state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life. The opposite of euphoria.
I hate to break it to you, but unless you have serious issues with your body, you don't have dysphoria. If you're comfortable with your current body but would feel better in a different one, then that would be a transition without dysphoria.
The tumblr crowd is the one that decided that being transgender is a choice with all this genderfuild special snowflake crap. Just like the tumblr crowd decided that being gay is a choice and misogynistic. If you're not trans and you want to modify your body to be more feminine or masculine, I'm fine with that. But don't go around comparing yourself with someone who is actually trans. And stop telling us cuteboys that we're trans.
>>5354387
I'm proud of you anon. May you get all the happiness you deserve out of life.
>>5354692
This is basically me. Outwardly basically mtf, but dresses androgynously and identifies as somewhere inbetween man and woman. Prefer they pronouns but fine with she or he (mostly get she).The dysphoria from having a masculine body is the same though.
Does everyone here think non-binary means genderspecial dfab who wears men's clothes or something? Pretty much every other non-binary I've met irl has been similar to me.
>>5354734
>Does everyone here think non-binary means genderspecial dfab who wears men's clothes or something?
Nah, I think nonbinaries with dysphoria are legit. Considering that there are girls who wanna be guys and vice versa, I can see there are people who also want to be both or neither. Anything outside of bigender/intergender and agender reek of genderspecial shit, though.
I thought I was nonbinary for a while because of the way I experienced dysphoria before I came to terms with being an FtM with little top dysphoria and major bottom dysphoria.
>>5354569
there isn't a better way than the one i'm pursuing, though. if you're talking about /lgbt/'s attitudes as a whole, you should've made that clear from the start instead of "-you- shouldn't do this, -you- should reconsider," etc. it certainly would be better if members of /lgbt/ were more prone to working together rather than tearing each other apart, but one of the big reasons certain people on /lgbt/ feel resentment towards others is because they keep being conflated with them, so your solution of acting like we can all easily be explained through a single label would be completely counterproductive. like i said before, the solution is not to focus on arbitrary similarities to foster support for each other, but to encourage empathy towards those different from us in general.
I have kinda bad secondary sex dysphoria, but don't identify as trans because I dislike most men and the culture of extreme masculinity and machismo that surrounds them and I don't want to have to deal with being a part of that, but it's hard to repress my hatred of my body. That said, I don't have genital dysphoria so it could honestly be a lot worse.
I like feminine things too, but I think it's only because I'm attracted to women, not that I actually want to be one, which has been a source of confusion for me for a long time.
while androgyny and feeling like i'm between genders would feel right to me, I don't want to be some sort of tumblr trender person. I know that no one would take me seriously anyways. What's the point? it's better to just repress and say that i'm a biscum woman even though i feel so wrong about myself
>>5354728
Thanks, anon. Just had a girl move in as a roommate, and we've been going out on girls nights to places like concerts and karaoke singing with other girls. The world isn't so dark.
>>5354805
You know what, I'm thinking we are actually thinking along the same lines but neither have expressed it particularly brilliantly (probably me more at fault than you, I'm not the best at expressing my thoughts at times). I apologise for not being more clear about what I was trying to get across.
>like i said before, the solution is not to focus on arbitrary similarities to foster support for each other, but to encourage empathy towards those different from us in general.
I can get on board with this, but to clarify, I wasn't so much saying to only focus on the similarities, more like the similarities are more of a priority than the differences.
>>5344355
You need dysphoria to be trans, but dysphoria can be difficult to identify.
Even just a little bit is some. And it doesn't have to be physical dysphoria, it could be social, for example, which tends to be where a lot of non-binary people get their dysphoria.
>>5354322
Art and music doesn't permanently modify your body in a way that is nearly impossible to recover from depending on far into transition you go.
>>5354400
I fucking hate that term. I know a chick who is taking testosterone, but continues to always dress like a girl and wear makeup. She claims she gets "gender euphoria" from people thinking she's a male born tyranny and that's just really disgusting to me.
>>5354870
you don't need to publicly use a specific label in order to take actions that can make you more comfortable with yourself. there are informed consent clinics that would let you take hrt without socially transitioning, and would even give you access to top surgery if you spoke with a psychologist for long enough. generally you wouldn't be able to get it covered by insurance, but i have a friend who is nonbinary and thus never socially transitioned at work, etc., but whose father's insurance is still going to cover top surgery because their doctor determined that their chest dysphoria is definitely real & significant.
of course if you take testosterone, the changes will be more obvious to others than if you were taking estrogen & progesterone (mostly the voice changes, since facial hair takes forever to start growing), but you could blame it on a hormonal imbalance if you wanted.
>>5355201
one person using a useful term in a shitty way shouldn't be allowed to destroy the utility of the whole term. playing dress-up & pretending you've experienced hardships you never have (in this case being raised male and having unwelcome effects of puberty make your body masculine in a way that caused you mental anguish) is disgusting. that's not just about gender, but about trans status and childhood experience. i'm fine with stealth trans people because that's a safety issue, but a cis person willingly taking hormones that they then pretend were in their body against their will is awful.
>>5355201
it's probably a fetish
she probably fetishized yaoi and crossdressing femboys and she's rationalizing her sexual arousal as 'euphoria' rather than acknowledging it for what it is
i can't be sure though
>>5355352
That person was my first run in with the term, so I've unfortunately had it ruined for me by making it always associate with their nasty face any time I hear it.
I can see how the term can be useful, I mean technically I do experience gender euphoria when a stranger calls me the right pronoun and confirms that I'm passing. It's just one of those word association things, like when you have a bad experience with a certain food and are forever made to gag when you think of it afterwards.
Doesn't help that this chick has the most annoying voice and has admitted to talking in a fake valley girl tone on purpose because it apparently makes her self-diagnosed autism feel better.
>>5355385
God, reminds me of this transguy I know. Fucking huge dude who passed without hormones. He cosplayed as a character he headcanons as a transgirl and he was so far down the tumblr hole that he actually bound his chest down and wore a stuffed bra over it so he could properly cosplay her as trans. Fucking nasty trash fetishists make me so mad.
>>5355390
ugh, yeah, i can get that. i do wish i could just erase certain associations i have with some words, but my brain is not that useful
i'm sorry you had to deal with her at all, she sounds fucking awful
>>5355417
are you sure he was a fetishist? i know binding and wearing falsies would trigger my own dysphoria much less than letting my own tits flow free. like there may be more to it that i'm not aware of but what you posted really doesn't sound too bad
>>5355888
i've heard of transgirls who were dysphoric about using their dicks or sex, but were a-ok with using a strap-on
>>5355888
Okay but in that case why cosplay a female character at all?
>>5356419
because you like the character? cis people cosplay characters that aren't their gender all the time, why should trans people have to avoid it?
>>5355193
Not always true. There are plenty of body-transforming pieces of artwork that are irreversible and also body modifications.
It's also a distraction from the real point - answer the question. Do you believe that every action you take, regardless of how drastic, must be 'necessary' before doing it?
>>5356693
That completely changes your statement then. Art is completely different than body modification, you think people don't think long and hard about it before irreparably modifying their body for art?
And yes and no, I think there are certain things (such as irreparable body mods) that require a certain amount of thought before going through with it. The problem is that kids who aren't dysphoric are getting on T without being properly explained the permanent effects that come with it. I have legit met multiple non-binary people who have said they would take T until they liked how androgynous they look and then stop. This shows me that the effects are not being properly explained to people who are getting prescribed HRT, as anyone with a brain can tell you that your body will go back to looking feminine once you stop T.
>>5356883
there definitely needs to be better education about what hrt does, especially if it's supposed to be "informed" consent. but i see know problem with letting cis people take it as a body mod as long as they know what they're getting into
i would be a girl if it didn't involve procedures that i perceive as mutilation. i'm okay with being a guy though. according to a lot of you that makes me insane or a fetishist. i didn't know that until now, thanks for informing me.
i contributed to the thread, where is my cookie?
>>5344436
>needing to have extensive invasive medical procedures to keep yourself from an heroing
>good thing
Come on anon. There's no way being trans is good unless you expand the term to mean "gender nonconforming" and then it's a useless word.
>>5357046
why not focus on the success of surviving transition and the other challenges brought your way? it's possible to separate the cause of transness (dysphoria) from the effects (transition, etc.), and feel positively about transitioning and feeling less dysphoria than if you'd stayed afraid and in denial, without pretending that the dysphoria itself is somehow objectively good.
also this may not be true for everyone, but for me realizing i was trans made me look more critically at things i used to take for granted, and learn many things that i'm not sure if i would've otherwise. i'm greatful for being pushed to not just transition but to grow as a person, even if i was motivated by pain.
>>5344355
yes
but what the dysphoria is like varies
