Well I just had my thread deleted on /k/ so I guess I will ask here (even though military discussions are like half of /k/). Maybe there are a few cross posters who would like to chime in.
This year the Pentagon said that its ban on transgender soldiers is being lifted. I'm curious to see how it will be implemented.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/21/transgender-troops/32019625/
The UK already allows for them.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34966216
>What are your thoughts on transgender people serving in the military?
I think it's fine for gay men and lesbian women to serve, but I feel like transgender people would just be a medical hindrance that isn't currently needed. I think if a nation is at war and needs more troops then it may be acceptable. Otherwise I don't think they should be accepted into the military.
>What if a soldier comes out while serving?
I guess let them continue serving, maybe reassign them to some role less physical if need be. The potential for abusing the system could be exploited here though. Transitioning is a really expensive process that most people struggle to afford (hence a high percentage of sex workers in the transgender community). But all things considered the annual government expense of paying for transgender soldiers' medical care ($5.6 million) would be insignificant considering the defense budget ($521 billion). Plus it would allow a marginalized population the chance to serve the country rather than some John's cock.
Trans soldiers are fine for all the misc. desk jobs the military has. As actual foot soldiers I think it's a bad idea because of the dependency on their medication.
>>5329788
I agree with that too anon. Do you think they should be accepted into the military not in times of war though?
Like why accept someone with a known medical costs to be a desk jockey when you could just as easily accept someone without?
Im in the airforce trans mtf my chain of command doesnt care they care nore about doing eprs and maintaining a good shop/unit/squadron. Its a bit more of a community then you would assume outside. Job hindrance? How? In all honesty a tranny can survive a month or two without their meds, it would be inconvenient and thats an unlikely scenario anyway. People get waivers, med hold etc all the time, the numbers for maintaining enlisted are relatively miniscule compared to overt fob deployment shit because of all the liability and readiness etc required in the deployed location.
>>5329815
I had a one star general tell the small group of us that our training, the first of like a dozen I went through in 8 years, cost about 250k a soldier, they were paying me 100k bonuses to stay in for 4 years, they literally can't find enough people to do what I do and pay contractors (including myself) 250k a year for a job they pay soldiers 50-60k for, and I left because I was trans.
there only needs to be 22 people like me before the army breaks even
>>5330483
What did you do that was so important and rare?
I'm just going to chime in here and point out that the Navy would be a good fit for transgender people who want to enlist. Sailors aren't exactly front-line types, and most of the jobs aboard a ship are either technical or mechanical.
>>5330615
This
Also they have a bunch of administrative jobs available also. Air force also
>>5329766
Did somebody say transgender soilders? :D:D
>>5330680
>>5330688
>>5330680
holy shit
>>5330680
Ewwwwwwww that's fuckin' bad man. They should at least pay to buy them new faces. The last one on the right looks total AGP-mode.
Well, considering today's big news about women serving in ALL positions of the military I think the integration of transgender soldiers won't be very difficult.
http://time.com/4135757/obama-compares-allowing-women-in-combat-roles-to-desegregation-gays-in-the-military/
>>5330680
Which ones are trans??
>>5331021
>they should at least pay to buy them new faces
Why should the government shell out thousands of dollars just to cater to some old man's perverted delusions?
>>5335569
Why would you want to though? Lol according to several studies most cis women don't want to serve in combat positions. I can only imagine how much harder that would be for a trans woman, that would be a nightmare.
>>5335718
To protect anon from getting triggered by having to look at ugly people?
>>5335726
>I can only imagine how much harder that would be for a trans woman, that would be a nightmare.
Why do you think this? I think trans women would be better suited for combat than cis women since trans women are genetically male.
>>5329766
I think youre right about the health aspect of being trans and serving in the military. Spiro makes it ncessary to consume more water which is a hinderance in a combat area, last thing you want is to be that one person who has to have extra water shipped into the FOB because you want to be a girl; nobody wants to get ruthlessly hazed, which is what would happen even if they accepted it.
>>5336122
Trans women don't have the strength or stamina of a cis male, not even close.
>>5336258
>Trans women don't have the strength or stamina of a cis male, not even close
>not even close
But anon, there are cis women who are comparable, if not stronger, than cis men. How can you say a genetic male is "not even close" in strength to another genetic male? All things being equal, the effects of HRT aren't that drastic. Pic related still looks pretty strong to me.
>>5336301
>But anon, there are cis women who are comparable, if not stronger, than cis men. How can you say a genetic male is "not even close" in strength to another genetic male?
They're talking about the average.
>All things being equal, the effects of HRT aren't that drastic. Pic related still looks pretty strong to me.
So then what do you think is the cause of the male strength advantage, if not testosterone?
>>5336301
But one of the biggest effects of HRT is muscle mass and bodyfat percentage changes.
>>5336301
afaik the biggest thing is that trans women usually have basically zero testosterone. I would guess naturally strong women have relatively high test levels
>>5336382
Not Zero but within female ranges.
>>5336448
>try to have any legitimate discussion on /lgbt/ about anything
>quickly devolves into trying to explain to trannies that they are not cis and that the differences are many and mostly obvious
>they genuinely act like this is some far fetched revelation that needs explaining
>like talking to a brick
>every.fucking.thread.on.this.board.
>>5336122
Well most trans girls don't like being hyper masculine so that would be torture on it's on, add to that fact that if you're trans in the military there's a good chance you don't pass and look like shit so that makes you a big red target for cis guys to bully the fuck out of.
Why would anyone cis or trans want to join the military and risk your life fighting senseless wars for greedy governments anyway?
There hasn't be a war with a cause worth fighting for since WWII.
>>5336557
>quickly devolves into trying to explain to trannies that they are not cis and that the differences are many and mostly obvious
That's a true statement though anon.
One could think about it like this:
>be a mentally disturbed person getting triggered by anything
>be accepted to carry a gun
>be attracted to your gender
>be denied the same right
Or one could think about it like this:
>be attracted to your gender
>be denied the right to go die in a pointless conflict
It is a good thing gay people don't get to be in the army but trannies do :^)
>>5339489
But gays have been allowed to serve openly since 2010/2011.
>>5339489
Anon, gay and lesbian troops are allowed to serve in the military now.
Next time, if you have to talk out your ass, maybe just don't post at all okay?
>>5336557
No one's saying that trans people are cis, I'm just asking for a consistent explanation because it's something I'm curious about. Is the male strength advantage caused by something other than hormones? Or does the effect of growing up with testosterone with regards to physical strength somehow remain even after having an extremely low T level (generally lower than cis women) for several years?
>>5329766
It's not really that trans healthcare is expensive at all in the big picture of healthcare costs but that terfs and conservatives teamed up to get insurance coverage removed and trans people are often discriminated against in housing and employment and disowned by their families before they are able to complete education which all together makes it difficult to pay for anything and is why so many trans people end up homeless/forced into sex-work.
>>5336372
>the effects of HRT are pretty mild - nowhere near as powerful as the natural effects of hormones
That's complete bullshit, modern hormone therapies use bio-identical hormones.
>Compared to cis women, trans women's bodies will always be more male than female
No, if they start early enough to get on puberty blockers then they'll develop according to their female hormone profile, besides primary sexual characteristics. Mtfs that seem more masculine underwent some maculinization from a masculine hormone profile and specifically the bone structure does not reverse once it is set.
Also let's not forget that there's not just mtfs, have you seen some of the manly ftms like buck angel?
>>5336557
>can't explain or back up your bs
>start greentexting
If it's not hormones and it's not muscles and it's not bones then what is it? Magic?
>>5336122
Not really. There's more to it than physical strength. For starters, trans women are dependent on medication and are more vulnerable to psychological stress, which would make them a liability in the field.
Another point is that spironolactone makes you urinate more frequently and you have a slightly higher risk of dehydration, hypotension and hyperlakemia. They'd also need more water than the average grunt.
>>5339875
Also trans women are more psychotic then cis women and cis men so it'd be like giving a chimp and machine gun.
>PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW
>MUWAHAHAHA TAKE THAT CIS SCUM!!
>>5339817
Male and Female Essences, one supposes.
Perhaps it will be otherwise?
>>5339901
>What can change the nature of a man?
>>5339798
>>5339817
Trannies please. No matter how pretty a transwoman is she is still going to be manlier than cis women, and no matter how manly a transman is, he is still going to be a manlet in comparison to cis men. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no matter how respectful and progressive the world around you is this is just the way things are.
It really is annoying how delusional so many of you are thinking that HRT magically makes trannies just like their cis counterparts. I shouldn't have to explain to you what anyone and everyone can so obviously see.
>>5339875
Those are some good points anon. But ultimately it comes down to whether or not they can pass all the testing/training and qualify for their desired roles. With the implementation of women into ALL parts of the military, sending transgender people through the same trials as everyone else shouldn't be any different. If they pass they pass, if they don't they don't (talking about testing, not passing as their desired sex).
I would think that the only logistic for actually implementing transgender soldiers would be any area segregated by sex (like bathrooms) and at what point do you let a soldier who is transitioning shift from male areas to sex areas.
My personal belief is that is should all be equal, not just the training and requirements, but also the bathrooms and showers and such. Treat everyone the same and those who want it and can make the cut do. Y'know, like it was in Starship Troopers.
>>5339980
What is the actual biological cause of men being stronger than women?
>>5339980
>literally in denial that an ftm can be manlier than an mtf
>>5340001
Magical male essence.
>>5340001
It's called testosterone, men have more of it then women and one of the things it does is help build muscle etc.
>>5340001
>>5340009
Literally missing the point in favor of throwing their heads in the sand screaming "LALALALA IMA REEEEAL GIRL!"
>literally in denial that an ftm can be manlier than an mtf
If you somehow deduced this then you need to be taught logic and reading comprehension.
See this asinine BS is the very reason I didn't want to try having this conversation on this board. You idiots are just the worst.
>>5340052
>why won't you just agree with me because I say so you dummies!!! I'm just right and don't need to use any actual evidence or explanation to back up my flawless logic that there's something that I can't quite explain beyond hormones that makes trannies more/less masculine!!!1!!1
>>5340035
Yes, but trans women have very low testosterone levels, so you'd expect that after long enough they'd have female testosterone levels.
>>5340052
I'm acknowledge the fact that cis women and trans women are different, 100%. But earlier you claimed that a trans woman will always have the greater physical strength of a biological male, and you refuse to support your argument to explain why. You should either explain why a trans woman would still have male strength after several years on HRT, or concede that your claim was incorrect. No more dancing around the issue and claiming we don't acknowledge reality. You're the one that's denying reality by implying this notion of some magical male essence that makes them physically stronger completely independently of testosterone.
>>5339959
A witch once asked me this.
I would now answer differently than one I did..
>>5330481
What AFSC?
Chair force cop here ;-;
>>5329766
If the nation is in the position its all hand on deck, no one will be getting meds. People with diabetes will die, people who don't get HRT meds will revert. At that point its about national survival.
Transgender, Gay, what people have something to fight for like anyone else if not more so. The right to be a human being being taken away by some foreign force.
That's worth fighting tooth and nail to stop regardless if I had to de transition for a few years.
>>5340176
Yeah but that kind of situation isn't likely to happen any time soon. Even the World Wars didn't get to that point. And chances are that even if our country got to that point, most of us would just run off to some other country anyway.
>>5336236
Spiro isn't the only drug, just the FDA hasn't approved them yet. I'm on one such drug and there are hardly any physical side effects past blocking testosterone.
A pack of pills or a pack of sanitary towels, the pills are smaller and lighter.
>>5339737
Not having a national health service, kek. Dying for the survival of the NHS would be a good death, not just for trannies but for humanity as a whole!
>>5340259
>all the people who upset my feels should just die! it's really for the good of everyone because I say so!!!
Don't cut yourself on that edge kid.
>>5340202
Then what is the point of this debate? If some one with a dick, vagina or something in between can run an assault course and has the mental tenacity that the army and special forces look for then why shouldn't they be allowed?
This entire thread has derailed from the original question, should they let them in along with the other LGB people? Has it negatively affected the UK army? No it hasn't so I doubt they give a fuck so long as they can salute and point a gun in the right direction.
>>5340278
Nice pro green texting a strawman argument man. Go back to your parents basement and practice some more, it needs work.
>>5340289
Thank you for staying on topic.
>If some one with a dick, vagina or something in between can run an assault course and has the mental tenacity that the army and special forces look for then why shouldn't they be allowed?
That's basically what the conclusion that the Pentagon came to. What they are figuring out, and what I am asking is, what sort of policies need to be in place to implement this inevitable change? What would be different for recruits applying who are already trans? How should the military handle current recruits who start transitioning while in service? Etc.
>>5340442
they don't know yet. im the aiforce tranny. i was told there may be a sort of experimental 'cut your dick off' leave for people but there is no srs, hrt protocol for active duty, etc. They are big on mission readiness of course, so I cant imagine too many commanders being eager to not have an employee in shop for a month or two still accruing leave, so I don't imagine that experiment will last long. I imagine they will just copy/paste whatever the civilian counterpart or VA has as standard of care, Really the military will not care too much because they only give medical paperwork, briefings, etc to cis women because they may experience side-effects etc during some potential pregnancy which isn't likely for some trans. failure to adapt is still a thing though so kicking someone out for being a tranny specifically is somewhat redundant.
as for secfo tripfriend...i am CE. whereabouts are you?
>>5340554
Maxwell
>>5340240
What are these drugs you must tell.
>>5340554
>They are big on mission readiness of course
Good point. I could see surgeries posing the biggest issues logistically.
Also, if you don't mind my asking, and this applies to >>5340572 as well, would you mind going into a little more detail about your experiences being trans while serving please? Like, did you apply to the Air Force after you transitioned or did you transition after you enlisted? If the latter, how did you go about requesting a female uniform, longer hair, etc. Not to mention obtaining hormones from them.
You don't have to answer anything of course, but thank you for not shit posting like everyone else.
>>5340616
It has been pretty hard for me to be completely honest. I didn't even figure out what i was until less than a year after i joined one of the most bro-tastic career fields in the air force. I started transition after I enlisted, been on hormones for about a year and 10 months now, but they still make me cut my hair and wear a male uniform ;-; my hair is long as shit compared to anyone else the air force considers male because I hold that shit down with grease at work. there are a few people out there with an exception to policy, able to actually go by the uniform and grooming standards of the gender they identify. I am not one of them yet, so i end up looking terrible at work and not so bad off work.
>>5340656
Thank you for sharing. If I may pry more, do you get your hormones prescribed by the Air Force? Does your company (or whatever it's called) know that your trans? If so, how do people treat you regarding that? Have you legally changed your name?
Don't you shower with a group in the military?
>>5340667
No, they are prescribed off base and my PCM recorded my prescription in my medical records.
I have changed my name, and my entire squadron knows about me being trans. Leadership has been supportive, and everyone is cool about it (to my face anyway) people do talk shit, but not in front of me. I bust my ass so I still pass the male standard PT test (hard as fuck now that i havent had any T for over a year) so i dont get messed with about it i guess
>>5340671
Only in basic. After that it is pretty rare you at least get a stall. (For us air force people anyway)
>>5340701
Sounds cool Im glad the Air Force is handling it professionally. That is a good thing.
>>5340554
So liek, where are you stationed? Have you seen any others like us in the military? I know a lot actually lol.
>>5340763
You have girl on the internet syndrome.
You spelled soldiers wrong dumbass
>>5340858
Well, you can either stumble upon someone and recognize the signs, or you can meet someone who is in contact with a lot of others and they can help.
>>5336301
Are you unironically saying that the one in the last picture would be even close to a match for the one in the first 3 pictures? no, of course she wouldn't be.
>>5340763
No i havent i have seen a dependant Phillipines ladyboy wife at a bx but not really. Were2cop trans friends? Also im at luke
>>5340176
The government never stops medicine production during world wars, this is very bad for national morale. The only thing that stops medication are blockades. I think Germany got blockaded in WW1 that was it. It's very rare because by the time you get to that point you've already lost the war.
I accepted that i am trans in the military. Gonna transition when i get out.
>>5342964
I am done with it in Jan 16 so it's pretty close.
>>5340656
I am thinking of joining the airforce (uk) and coming out while in service, how did you get things started when you decided to come out? like who did you talk to, also what is an acceptable hair length for trans people? pls post a pic of your hair aswell pls.
>>5343284
Things will be COMPLETELY different for you. I believe your military actually allows open trans service. Stand by for the hair i am kind of busy atm
>>5329766
Treatment should be covered by insurance.
Feminists prevented this from happening in the eighties because muh social construction.
Any rational and evidence-based healthcare system will see that hrt = healthier individuals = more taxpayers.
But yes, people shouldn't do things if their medical issues will be a hindrance. I'd propose changing the rule from "no trans people" to "no people with burdening medical issues". Trans people could still be excluded with this rule but it wouldn't come off as discriminatory or like trans people are being singled out. Then everyone will be happy.
>>5336726
are you retarded? the lusitania was proven an inside job, to go into WW1. FDR cut off the exports to japan entirely. the government is just waving a key in front of them till they get annoyed and stop it. they both MADE their excuse to get into a war wthout a real reason
>>5345200
>the lusitania was proven an inside job
[citation needed]
>FDR cut off the exports to japan entirely.
Because Japan was invading the rest of Asia.
/k/-fag/ex military here. No offense to trannys/women and the likes but there's no way i'd be okay with any of you backing me in a combat situation. Feminine hygiene is a huge problem in extended combat, there was many times i didn't see a proper bathroom for weeks on end. Plus women have a nasty habit of pissing themselves and getting a fucking uti. I don't even want to think about having some "chick" tripping shit in the middle of a warzone because she cant get her hormones in the middle of a desert. Honestly i don't think many women will make it into combat roles even with them being allowed now. Chicks get raped in the military all the time and they're on fucking base, don't even wanna think about what it's gonna be like when you throw cadet kelly into the middle of a warzone with a platoon full of killers who haven't seen a white woman in a year.
>>5345273
If soldiers are going to lose their minds just because they see a woman, isn't that kind of a massive vulnerability that the enemy could take advantage of?
>>5345288
Nah. It's not like they're gonna fuck her dry in the middle of a gunfight. I'm saying for the first time ever there will be readily available white pussy right in front of them for their entire deployment. Bound to happen. I knew a ton of guys who raped sandnigger bitches while they were deployed and heard some pretty gross shit about them.
>>5345221
at that point we were independent. we wouldnt have had any reason to look nice.
the lusitania was an inside job because FDR basicly went "you see this boat that is carrying innocent people, ill drive it right through a territory where germans had said they would shoot at
>>5345377
What kind of authority did FDR have over where the ship went? Especially in 1915?
>>5345273
There is no reason they couldn't just bring enough pills to last the duration of the deployment. People were doing it in secret for a long time. Also, you know as well as I do that there are plenty of people loaded up with all kinds of meds EVERYWHERE in the military.
>>5345391
he had the authority to suck my boiclit, bitch
>>5345526
But what happens if they get a blood clot or something as a side effect from the medication and they can't get the medical care required? Modern HRT carries risks, minimal risks for sure, but when you're outside the wire less overall risks means a greater chance of survival
Men cutting their dick off or women being legally pumped full of steroids. It is the only way we can get "women" to meet the physical standards needed for combat.
>>5342307
No way, you're in AZ? Me too, friend.
Air Force here. Closeted MtF chilling at Yokota waiting out for HRT.
>>5336301
dude i will straight up tell you first hand i have lost so much strength on HRT. I can't lift half the shit i could before single handed.
>>5340259
meanwhile in britain, the tories quietly dismantle the NHS anyway.
Revolution when?
>>5346901
What's it like being in the airforce? how's the atmosphere where you are stationed? do you get much private space to yourself?
>>5329766
There isn't a problem as long as they're sane enough to do their job and their treatment doesn't interfere with their job. That's all there is to it. What jobs they can and can't do is up for debate, but it's not a matter of should or shouldn't, it's rather what's feasible and what's not. Combat roles? Unlikely. Desk work? No problem.
>>5347448
The Air Force is pretty relaxed about many things, if a bit too bureaucratic. It's pretty nice over here though and I have plenty of privacy in my dorm room to do what I please. Japan is thankfully trans friendly too.
>>5345888
There are probably plenty of other soldiers with medical conditions just as risky. Unless no one is allowed to join the military if they require regular medication at all?
>>5345941
MtFs are even less likely to meet the physical standards, since they usually have less testosterone than cis women.
![tumblr_nd3oytjwVa1rlo1q2o1_1280[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/FdckJ3l.jpg "tumblr_nd3oytjwVa1rlo1q2o1_1280[1].jpg")
>>5348409
Who said anything about HRT and surgery?
We just get some femme boys that are /fit/. Call them Trans Gender Women and call it a day.
Military is a hard place for a woman. Even as a gym rat cis lesbian. I worked out constantly and only got to average strength and endurance of the male soldiers.
>>5349088
Hydraulics maintainer. It's a pretty simple job so far.
>>5349699
If you got a skype i could hook you up with others like us
Terrible idea. I want to use being trans to get out of as many civil responsibilities as possible. I hope the ban trans people from jury duty as well.
>>5349719
Don't have a skype unfortunately. Any other methods?
>>5349771
Email works
