>>5667721
>A man can be male sex, but female gender, correct?
yes
>And that would entail wearing heals, lipstick, bras etc
no it would entail having dysphoria
>So do you have to do these things to be a "women" by gender?
no
>But that would exclude "tomboys" who identiy as a women but do none of these things, that can't work.
no it wouldnt
>So a man who dresses in dresses and female who wears shorts and singlets have nothing in common whatsoever biologically or aesthetically are both women?
no
>Then what is a women or man?
sex involves physical characteristics and gender mental charecteristics. the combination of those is what makes a woman or man
>Does those words mean anything at all?
yes, see above
>If not why not abondon them completely?
because thats retarded
>Oh wait then there can't be such a thing as feminism because there's no such thing as women who have it worse than men, everyone's just a blend of different genders they self identify as.
feminism doesn't make a shred of sense no matter how you put it anyway
>Wait a minute women do have it worse than men?
no
>Then it must be based on sex!
no
>But wait I identify as a women, how dare you say I'm any different??
no
>Sure I have XY chromosomes and don't have female genitalia, but I like to wear a wig sometimes!!
good for you
>By the way if you're confused you're transphobic
well memed xD

>>5667842
What you're implying is that having a mental illness that makes you think you're a male/female, makes you a male/female? Is that what you're getting at in the "having dysphoria" statement?

>>5667842
>no it would entail having dysphoria
Since when? Gender is a social construct, I was born as much as a women as a man without dysphoria
>no
Answering the question I answered already
>sex involves physical characteristics and gender involved mental
So there's a mental difference between men and women based on gender?
I thought men and women were the same. How do you tell if someone is mentally a man or women? Or do they simply decide. If no I whats stopping me from identifying as a women and that being any led leitemate than someone with dysphoria?
>yes those words do mean something
Okay what do they mean? What is a man? what is a women? Define them please

>>5667909
Sorry phone typos

>>5667721

Chris-chan considered himself a "tomgirl" for a while.

http://sonichu.com/cwcki/Tomgirl_Saga

Seriously why do we still entertain tranny's delusions?

>>5667864
not a single pre-transition trans person in history "thought" that they were male/female, that isn't what dysphoria is.
>>5667909
>Gender is a social construct,
no it isnt
>So there's a mental difference between men and women based on gender?
no there are multiple mental differences
>I thought men and women were the same
i thought we were supposed to be the delusional ones
>How do you tell if someone is mentally a man or women?
usually there are signs, but for the most part the person can tell themselves
>Or do they simply decide.
do you also think people "simply decide" their sexuality too
>If no I whats stopping me from identifying as a women and that being any led leitemate than someone with dysphoria?
because you dont actually feel that way, you just tell people you do. i dont need to explain the difference
>What is a man?
someone with (mostly) male characteristics and mentally a man
>what is a women?
plural of woman

>>5667982
Funny I actually agree with you that gender isn't a social construct, but I'll play devils advocate
So gender fluidity isn't real?
And if gender isn't a social construct and I'm born with a male brain, I shouldn't wear dresses or act feminine?
Okay so a cat is a cat with mostly cat characteristics and mentally a cat? That's the definition? Something can't define itself
Okay what's a woman?

>>5668068
>So gender fluidity isn't real?
not really, people can have a mixture of sex characteristics and even an intermediate gender identity but the tumblr flavor of "my gender changes by moonlight" is still bullshit
>And if gender isn't a social construct and I'm born with a male brain, I shouldn't wear dresses or act feminine?
you can but that won't change your gender
>Okay so a cat is a cat with mostly cat characteristics and mentally a cat?
change to "organism with mostly cat characteristics" and you're right
>Something can't define itself
do i really need to define what male/female sex characteristics are? the mental part is mostly your brain matching your physical body, since male and female brains do have general differences after all
Okay what's a woman?
someone with (mostly) female characteristics and mentally a woman

>A man can be male sex, but female gender, correct?
Pretty much yeah tbqh familia.
>And that would entail wearing heals, lipstick, bras etc
Nope.
>So do you have to do these things to be a "women" by gender?
Nope.
>But that would exclude "tomboys" who identiy as a women but do none of these things, that can't work.
Yeah.
>So a man who dresses in dresses and female who wears shorts and singlets have nothing in common whatsoever biologically or aesthetically are both women?
If they both identify as women they are women to be honest. inb4 a truck driver in a skirt
>Then what is a women or man?
Meaningless words we assigned to people that have different genitalia. Man and wo-man (womb-man) tbqh.
>Does those words mean anything at all?
Nope. Postmodernism yay!
>If not why not abondon them completely?
No. See, you can have a Native American tribe with 60 genders and that works for them but something entirely different works for Westerners with Judeo-Christian values. Every culture is different and smashing the existing system of comfortable socially set gender roles is not a solution, unless it happened progressively over the times like it is happening now.
>Oh wait then there can't be such a thing as feminism because there's no such thing as women who have it worse than men, everyone's just a blend of different genders they self identify as.
That's a terrible conclusion tbqh.
>Wait a minute women do have it worse than men? Then it must be based on sex!
We clearly divided sex from gender before we started this, remember? You are breaking your own rules, mate.

>But wait I identify as a women, how dare you say I'm any different?? Sure I have XY chromosomes and don't have female genitalia, but I like to wear a wig sometimes!!
Then you are just a dude who likes to wear a wig sometimes, it does not invalidate you as a man at all tbqh.

>>5667864
>What you're implying is that having a mental illness that makes you think you're a male/female, makes you a male/female?
According to the most current scientific hypotheses on the subject, due to evidence gathered from neurological and psychological studies over the past century (not counting historical accounts of gender non-conforming people), they have brain development that falls into typical female ranges due to hormone fluctuations in the womb, which causes extreme distress due to primary and secondary sexual characteristics that don't match the neurological setup the brain has developed for, which is in turn mitigated by sexual reassignment through surgery and gender reassignment through legal proceedings. It's why they're seen by the government, and by medicine, as female both legally and medically.

This happens with both trans men and trans women, but people freak out more about trans women because society is trained to react violently to the perception of a "feminine male." Hence your focus on them.

You can easily google any of this if you want to learn more.

Also

>heals
For real?

>>5668252
Society needs a binary system to function. We can have brain scanners all over the place, so how do we toilet segregation? Jails? Sex specific schools? Sex specific sporting teams? It would be disgustingly unfair to pair people who are anatomically different in all of these things, how they "feel" in their mind is actually rather irrelevant, no one cares, they don't want hairy men in bathrooms with their daughters, and we can't prove very well whether someone actually has dysphoria or not. Transgenders just needs to accept their shitty circumstances like kids with bone cancer, biology sucks.

>>5668297
We can't**

>>5668297
sex and gender *are* binary. intersex conditions do exist yes (technically transsexuals are intersex) but don't warrant inventing an entirely new gender/sex/whatever classification. almost everyone is either mostly male or mostly female
>Transgenders just needs to accept their shitty circumstances like kids with bone cancer, biology sucks.
so if there was an easily available cure for bone cancer would you still tell them to "accept" it instead of seeking it out? because there is a cure for gender dysphoria, its called transition

>>5668105
>>5668145
Mainly I just wanted you guys to admit gender fluidity is bullshit otherwise the legitimacy of dysphoria goes into the trash, and you did. I'm looking forward to the special snowflake civil war about whether it's real or not. Addressing a couple of points
He definition of a woman is "an adult human female"
And the definition of a female is "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes"
Neither of these need to change, they are completely accurate. Men are forever men and women are forever women, as for why refer to
>>5668297
And no that's not the definition of a cat, a cat is a "1.
a small domesticated carnivorous mammal with soft fur, a short snout, and retractile claws. It is widely kept as a pet or for catching mice, and many breeds have been developed.", the problem for you is you can't list any specific characteristics of a man or woman because there will always be someone who violates them, therefore you must resort to the chromosomal differences.

>>5668334
How does transition solve a biological man wanting to be in a woman's sporting team?

>>5668403
>Men are forever men and women are forever women
yes but our brains aren't in this fixed state or correspond to our bodies every time. you'll never get a woman with 100% "female" brain and a man with 100% "male" brain either

>>5668403
>I'm looking forward to the special snowflake civil war about whether it's real or not.
thankfully most people outside of tumblr dont take special snowflake identities seriously anyway
>And the definition of a female is "of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes"
thats the technical biological definition of male and female yes, however other sex characteristics do exist. you could say that a woman on menopause is "sexless" yet she's still a woman no?
>the problem for you is you can't list any specific characteristics of a man or woman because there will always be someone who violates them, therefore you must resort to the chromosomal differences.
no one said the definition relies on one specific characteristic, but rather a combination of them. there will always be exceptions to any general rule but they can be treated on a case-by-case basis.
also all chromosomes really do is trigger the initial production of hormones so they arent very useful when classifying people who change their natural hormone levels, ie transpeople.

>>5668419
you dont have to join a sporting team to cure dysphoria
that aside transition actually does generally make you weaker for mtfs

>>5668334
It isn't a cure though, it's a treatment. Cure implies not being afflicted with the illness any longer. Truth is, it's just another mask of identity. If you really dug down the mind, you'd see that we all live in a mask every single day. We form our identities off of our sexuality, hobbies, skills, interests, etc. In the case of transexuals, the identity seems to be formed due to the sexuality, which makes sense because it is the most powerful thing an identity can be branched off of. Ideally there would be a way to lighten the load of the person's mind without having to resort to hormonal changes or tons of different plastic surgeries in order to help the person to "be themselves" of which there isn't really a self, just different personas and some are stronger to how the person identifies. That's what they teach people in psychology as well. You don't define a patient through their mental illness, they are not a gender dysphoric, likely transexual male. They are a person, who is afflicted with gender dysphoria. There is so much more to a person than just their illnesses and while I don't believe transitioning is inherently wrong, as I do believe it may indeed be the necessary intervention for some, but I believe that IF people want to indeed improve as a person, they need to see that there is really no such thing as a "true self" that one must need to become in order to be happy. Lots of people have different fantasies of who they see themselves being, and can derive tons of identities off of those things. Human beings are indeed interesting.

>>5668694
>In the case of transexuals, the identity seems to be formed due to the sexuality
its not a simple matter of sexuality when your brain literally does not match your physical features
>Ideally there would be a way to lighten the load of the person's mind without having to resort to hormonal changes or tons of different plastic surgeries in order to help the person to "be themselves"
whats wrong with hormones and surgeries? they work and produce successful results; if psychologists could cure dysphoria by repeatedly telling transpeople to "be themselves" they wouldve done so decades ago.
again, you're treating transsexualism as a generic mental illness, when the two are completely different. sure you could say its a "mental illness" in the sense that it *is* a disorder and it *does* relate to a mental incongruence with your body but if you treat it like your average run-of-the-mill identity crisis youre missing the point entirely.