http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25231780
>On the subject of treating children, however, as the World Professional Association for Transgender Health notes in their latest Standards of Care, gender dysphoria in childhood does not inevitably continue into adulthood, and only 6 to 23 percent of boys and 12 to 27 percent of girls treated in gender clinics showed persistence of their gender dysphoria into adulthood. Further, most of the boys' gender dysphoria desisted, and in adulthood, they identified as gay rather than as transgender.
Does /lgbt/ have an opinion on this?
From what I gather, it seems to be one of the key disagreements between gender critical feminists and the trans community. Several "TERF" communities I've been linked to actually only/primarily seemed to be concerned with a trend of identifying prepubescent children as transgender.
>>5436977
We already know. It's not a huge trend, it's that it's hard to tell if the gender variance is trans or not before puberty kicks in.
No trans person will deny. Gender criticals are retards who think these kids are put on hrt and given srs by the time they're 12 when completely reversible puberty blockers is all they get by that point and it still takes years of therapy for minors.
You're basically baiting.
>>5436977
I think it's very good that the medical community is aware of the numbers and take a course of action in diagnosis and treatment that enables their young patients to explore their gender practically and thoughtfully.
Gender non-conforming behaviors comprise such a huge subset of what children may be naturally expected to exhibit that time and space to question what is their own identity, and what peers and adults are imposing on them is essential.
The fear of children being made to transition is based on a myth. Rather, they are given the enviable option to delay the development of secondary sex characteristics until they're confident of who they are, as those same studies found was overwhelmingly the case in adolescence and adulthood.
I honestly don't know how many TERFs are left. Many I see have the look of shadow puppets about them.
1/ Gender non-conforming is not trans
2/ Better quality of life if trans and started before puberty
3/ GnRH agonist/puberty blocker are basically safe and reversible
Obvious solution : stop the overdiagnosis based on stupid doctors/parents, use the puberty blockers liberally for the rest, wait some threshold age for real hormones (which are ~ permanent).
Except now, all of the effeminate gays and masculine lesbos are coming out as transexual. What?????
>>5437098
Nah. Just more panic.
>>5437098
Except it's proportionally less so than before because the old school shrinks only allowed extremely gender variant heterosexuals transition.
>>5436995
Well it seems the therapists could do a better job too.
>Like many who read this blog, I phoned gender therapists during the weeks after her announcement that she was trans. Without even meeting my child in the flesh, all four of these therapists talked to me like this trans thing was a done deal. I wrote about one of those conversations here. (http://4thwavenow.com/2015/05/09/psychologists-whose-brains-have-been-eaten-by-gender-zombies/) One very friendly therapist, who identifies as FTM and whose website stressed “his” commitment to “informed consent,” assured me that there was no need for my daughter to first experience a sexual or romantic relationship before deciding whether she was trans. “Most of the young people just skip that step now,” the therapist said.
>Skip that step? I thought back to my own adolescence. I didn’t even begin to have a clear idea of who I was, as a sexual being, until after I’d had more than one relationship. It took years for me to come to know my body’s nuances and intricacies, its capacity for pleasure, how I might feel in relation to another.
>This same therapist signed my kid up for a “trans teen” support group scheduled for the following week—again, without ever having met her. “There’s nothing you or I can do about your daughter being trans,” said another therapist… on the phone, without having met my kid. Yet another therapist refused to talk to me at all; insisted she’d have to have a private appointment with my kid first.
>Contrary to the myth promulgated by the transition promoters, at least in the United States, there is no slow and careful assessment of these kids who profess to be trans. The trend is to kick out the gatekeepers, and move towards a simple model of “informed consent”: If you say you’re trans, you are–no matter how young and no matter when you “realized” you were trans.
>All these therapists seemed well meaning enough. [...]
>>5437098
I'm OP and STFU tbhq, I'm not trying to bait anyone here and derail the thread into troll arguments, so get out.
>>5436977
> Several "TERF" communities I've been linked to actually only/primarily seemed to be concerned with a trend of identifying prepubescent children as transgender.
Which ones ?
>>5436977
Nobody is advocating anything be done to prepubertal children. In fact medical intervention is limited to pubertal youth when it's an almost perfect persistence rate.
Also, the only meds they use for adolecents till late teens are Luporelin which is fully revisible and does nothing more than delay puberty by six or so months.
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/laneur/article/PIIS1474-4422%2810%2970182-4/abstract?cc=y=
Fully reversible and every bit as safe as a placebo.
But hey, if you want to keep repeating the radical-fundamentalist-pol-jihaidi myth about them giving five year olds surgery, then don't let me stop you.
>>5437326
It's true tho, just look at femgen hoarding estrogen. They aren't that rare if you look at other online comunities or just effeminate twinks irl.
>>5437315
>A large part of the problem comes with the revolution in health care. More and more, we are giving people the power to define their own treatments. This is good in many ways, but the trans movement is using this moment, and is actively recruiting young, psychologically undefined and frightened people to push their agenda through the medical community.
>https://twitter.com/AliceDreger/status/635463861529890816
Reads almost the same as that
>Recruit, Recruit ten percent is not enough!
Very "reasonable" source.
>>5436977
Maybe when they grew up they realized that the didn't have to be girls to like the color pink or be boys to like the color blue. Maybe as they matured they realize the difference between gender and gender roles. Maybe not every person who doesn't act 100% like their gender is considered to traditionally act isn't some kind of polygendered attack helicopter. Maybe we keep blowing little things out of proportion because we're all a bunch of crazy, inbred, ape monsters with egos bigger than our intelligence
>>5437386
>puberty blockers are fully reversible
But the developmental issues aren't
>>5437395
>>5437315
You're talking about thirteen year olds though. By that age group they don't stop being trans.
What's more, you're demanding these teenagers have no say in a fully reversible and statistically harmless treatment that does nothing more than put off puberty by a few months.
The europeans all have low fat diets and get puberty years later than Americans and all that means that they'd grow taller and healthier than their American counterparts cause of growth plates sealing later.
You wouldn't get any worse than that and the Lancet studies prove it's safe and reversible. Despite that you want the state/religious groups to meddle in the safe and reversible delaying therapies that would give teenagers more time to sort out their shit.
Considering you probably support girls of the same age getting far more hazardous xenoestrogen contraceptives and surgical abortion procedures, I have to ask, why do you want a reversible and safe medication like that to be criminalized?
>>5437405
>developmental issues
Which are ?
>>5437405
They are though. Provided they didn't get the hormones that aren't administered till late teens, the only lasting effect is that they grow taller than they would have and are gracile. Can still develop the secondary traits of whatever group they chose.
I don't think most nonconforming kids would really be put off by the super model asthetics.
>>5437357
4thwavenow at least.
And /r/gendercritical doesn't seem as loony as people would like me to believe either. E.g. see
https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/3xmmnc/are_there_other_mental_illness_that_are_treated/cy7f75n
>>5437386
>radical-fundamentalist-pol-jihaidi myth about them giving five year olds surgery
Literally nobody said anything even remotely close to that.
>>5437392
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Who is Alice Dreger and how does she, or the 4thwavenow post she tweeted, relate to the topic? (I genuinely don't know.)
>>5437409
I don't "want" shit, I asked for opinions FFS.
Oh and
>>5437409
>religious groups
Fuck no, those can go DIAF.
>you probably support girls of the same age getting far more hazardous xenoestrogen contraceptives and surgical abortion procedures
(This kind of contradicts what you just implied about "my position's" (not really my position) connection to religion, but whatever.)
I would rather have girls discover sexuality with each other and with boys who will agree to have non-penetrative sex, but anyway, that's off-topic.
>>5437416
>>5436977
Was directed more to fearmongering as a whole rather than you. At any rate if you can only make a viable argument by claiming that doctors are "recruiting" todlers and giving them sex changes, when in real life medical therapy solely consists of fully revirsible and safe puberty delaying drugs at adolescence, then maybe your argument isn't as viable as you thought.
I mean, turning the reversible delay in teenagers to a jews recruiting todlers, just seems a tiny bit like what they used to say about Dr. Magnus Hirchfeild.
It's a worrying sort of iliberalism where you have to construct fake narratives about doctors eating kids.
>>5437424
You mean this? http://4thwavenow.com/2015/08/22/exiles-in-their-own-flesh-a-psychotherapist-speaks/
The one talking about how faggots want to recruit others to their cause.
That's straight out of neonazi rhetoric, not even kidding.
>>5437424
>https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/3xmmnc/are_there_other_mental_illness_that_are_treated/cy7f75n
>In recent years it seems like the majority of trans people wouldn't exist without our current societies concepts of gender.
So then crippling body dysmorphia is just some scheme of Xenu?
With any other nonvital condition we allow for bodily autonomy.
That's why people can get contraceptives and abortions, despite the former having an incredibly high likelyhood of killing you through embolisms. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26179493
And instead, your people call granting others basic autonomy and control over their bodies the same as anorexia.
There's virtually no risk compared to elective stuff like contra, but you still want the church and state to throw in all of it's tyrany and take away any rights people had to manage their bodies.
>>5437443
>that image
Does it signal the end of a peaceful thread? Like Godwin's Law?
I've seen it many times now and every time it was around the time the thread started to fill up with almost-literal retards, like the nature of the image itself. I would rather not see it anymore.
>>5437469
>Saying that extreme fundamentalism/nationalism/zelotry all have similar intolerance of those who are different
Think you forgot you're on an lgbt site m8.
Also, does this mean you're the one who said LGBT are full of rapists and they'll kill everyone if you give them anti-discrimination protections?
>>5437488
>the one who said LGBT are full of rapists and they'll kill everyone if you give them anti-discrimination protections
So you really are the deluded idiot I take it. (Either that or they managed to infect others.)
I'd like you to know that it's become literally impossible to have intellectual discourse on /lgbt/ in your presence.
Thanks for ruining the entire board.
>>5437479
>whole post
You mean the part about how giving people with GD safe control over their bodies is exactly the same as starving an anorexic?
Yeah...
>>5437424
As a side, you'd just need to look around the board and you'll see it's not uncommon for effeminate gay males to go on HRT for body issues alone and continue to identify as m. Social stuff hardly factors into it if at all.
>>5437496
But you literally said those things...
>>5437505
I mean the part where the author explicitly acknowledges body dysmorphia as the main proof of transsexuality.
You on the other hand claimed that they implied that body dysmorphia was a lie.
>>5437509
There was someone around here the other day who genuinely seemed to believe that someone says those things. Are you that same weirdo, or are you perhaps confusing things?
Because as far as I'm concerned, literally, nobody, ever, once, said anything even remotely resembling that.
The person making the claim linked a couple articles which, for instance, talked about the possibility of non-trans men abusing trans laws to escape punishment. They seemed to have such a big lack of reading comprehension that they managed to interpret that (and some other such irrelevant things) as "all transsexuals are rapists and murderers and plotting to oppress women and rape children."
If you are that person, fuck you, leave the board.
If not, then next time you see them, please tell them, fuck them, they should leave the board.
It's impossible to have a sane discussion in that person's presence.
>>5437525
>body dysmorphia was a lie.
Equate it to anorexia and people reviving any relief for it to killing anorexics
interesting thread
Sounds like that lady talked to some top-notch therapists. Then kept shopping around for the one who would fix her teen cis but good.
Evading the first is especially heartbreaking. Being trans is often an extremely isolating experience. A chance to meet many peers with a similar experience would have been a fantastic opportunity to be, for a short time, not an outsider.
>>5437525
>possibility of non-trans men abusing trans laws to escape punishment
Except that has never happened in any place where they've adopted that law. Also had police officers come out and say those claims were totall bullshit.
Law never would have worked for that but you went and lied about men pretending to be women so they can rape.
You lied, people died. Can't handle people calling you out for that, too bad.
>>5437531
>Equate it to anorexia
...
>https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/3xmmnc/are_there_other_mental_illness_that_are_treated/cy7f75n
>I really don't think anorexia is comparable to being transgender.
Anon, I...
>>5437541
>you went and lied about men pretending to be women so they can rape
2/10 make it funnier so at least I can laugh
>>5437565
Look. Could you take your concern trolling elsewhere?
>>5437565
>>In practice, this means that any individual can escape charges of indecent exposure, trespassing, and voyeurism in sex-segregated spaces of public nudity (toilets, locker rooms) simply by stating their desire to invoke “Gender Identity” status.
They had police officers in every place where they passed those laws say you're lying.
Course you didn't care and went and killed HERO for it.
You're killing antidiscrimination laws and pushing naziesque propaganda about lgbt over reasons that everyone has pointed out were patently false.
You're trying to kill people.
>>5437574
What the fuck is concern trolling?
I genuinely learned some things out of this thread. It only deteriorated with the popping up of our infamous deluded idiot who literally, literally believes that
1. radical feminists are essentially ultraconservatives,
2. radical feminists are opposed to homosexuality and bisexuality in men,
3. radical feminists literally call trans women rapists and murderers,
4. radical feminists are solely responsible for HERO not having passed,
and so on and so forth.
It's a bag of laughter really.
>>5437587
>You're trying to kill people.
MFW this dude literally believes this.
Please don't have a meltdown.
>>5437597
>laughter
Aand keep telling everyone what you think about others getting hurt. Real laugh is that you claimed your ideology wasn't anti-lgbt.
>>5437597
They're right though. Your whole argument was built on lies and hurt people.
>>5437608
>>5437613
>implying you're not the same person
Your pain would decrease significantly if you stopped being so paranoid and deluded and directed your hate at the right group of people.
>>5437637
>Your pain would decrease significantly
Sounds an awfull lot like what the Jehova Witnesess told me. Care to tell me what's better about your particular sect?
>>5437699
I didn't even tell you to become a radfem, just to direct your hate as an oppressed transperson at the right people. (That would mean right-wingers and such.)
Being a real radfem would mean doing activism, or at the very least confronting people in daily life about such issues. It won't decrease any pain, unless it feels painful not to stand up.
>>5437389
>look at femgen hoarding estrogen
So what? Just taking hormones alone doesn't make you trans.
>>5437794
No but people are plenty happy to use mtf type procedures regardless of what label they go with. Lines are blurred and seeing as how a lot of people are happier with the meds, it's obviously not the horrible thing it was portrayed as.
Well that turned to a shitshow very fast. Hoping you're still there, cis het anime-posting-dude OP.
>>5437424
You do realise this site is using this as a veneer of respectability ? Maybe some people there are in good faith but the author just want to deny transness at any cost. Some common themes, with a link for example.
>"Have your kid be seen by an arrogant, old man" (sic), [so he won't diagnose him/her as trans.]
Literally telling people to shop around for a partial therapist.
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/09/29/guest-post-tips-for-parents-on-finding-a-therapist/
The whole appeal to common sense schtick (= appeal to the statu quo = modus operandi of conservatism, NOT progressivism). It's actually anti-intellectualism, a way to reject of medical science/biology. ("I don't need science to know what is male and female, that's just common sense")
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/10/07/reality-departed-activists-have-destabilized-common-sense/ (not the best example of that but i'm on mobile)
Related is the "big pharma conspiracy" trope. Basically the pharma moneymakers are common disease with patentable treatment, like type II diabetus, hypertension/aeteriosclerosis. Transsexuality is rather rare and hormones are old medication with generics available. Not a money maker. (Btw that makes me think of antivaxxer and other conspiracy theories with the paranoid thinking "it's the system against us the enlightned")
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/05/31/wpath-would-like-to-thank-our-sponsors-for-their-generous-support/ and in the comments...
(1/2)
(2/2)
A lot a strawman, scare tactics on a lot of subject. Has been discussed already (GnRH agonist are safe, and doctor dont do srs on children,...). Generalizing from the bad apples. Not tactics of a rational person with a logical case - but someone with an axe to grind.
> Parents, doesn’t this story help you feel more secure, entrusting your children to leaders of organizations that bill themselves as havens for transgender youth?
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/10/09/transgender-youth-group-leader-charged-with-rape-and-strangulation-of-a-minor/ (for example)
Denying one's agency for one's body, in the form of informed consent. (It bears repeating that a diagnosis of transness can only be based on the subjective experience of GD)
>difficulty finding therapists and doctors critical of the I’m-trans-if-I-say-I-am paradigm.
http://4thwavenow.com/2015/11/04/skeptical-gender-therapist-a-medical-doctor-is-not-a-candy-seller/
I could go on. I'm kindof doubting your impartiality, it's transparent that these site are trying to invalidate transness, not presenting an objective viewpoint...
>>5437835
>>5437842
I'm still here, thank you for your input.
I'm too tired for a counter but I think I don't have anything to counter anyway. I understand that this small(?) section of radical feminists contains some fringe people who are dangerously close to being or actually are transphobic in an aggressive/militant way.
>>5437916
>I'm too tired
Please take care of yourself anon. Merry christmas.
Merry kurisumasu~
