Is transgender dysphoria fundamentally different from other forms of dysphoria people feel and demand that they have their bodies altered to fit what they think it should be in their mind? A woman who blinds herself because she feels blind inside, a woman who wants to be crippled because she feels like a wheelchairbound person, the boy who wants to be korean because he feels korean on the inside.
Shouldn't these people all be grouped together? It seems like at their core their mental issues and needs are the same as trans ones. Do you think these people should be encouraged or discouraged?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_identity_disorder
>>5389068
Sure.
If you read some of the conclusions of studies regarding biid and sex dysphoria, there is an overlap with the idea of an incorrectly integrated neurological body map. The primary difference is that while dysphoria diminishes significantly with hormones and surgery, biid sufferers, as those with dysmorphia, tend to merely shift the focus of their discomfort to another aspect of their body, and so biid is comparatively less successfully mitigated with surgical intervention.
Basically, a little bit, but not really.
Yeah, it's the same shit. Also, many of those limb dysphoric people end up self-inflicting wounds upon themselves, forcing their docs to amputate the limbs.
The question is, if one believes they will lead a happier life presenting as another gender or losing a certain limb, is it really that bad to cater to it? Sure, it's fucked up pumping hormones into your body and getting your dick chopped off but really, do you realize how little we know about the human mind compared to what we know about the body?
You could say that since we don't know shit about human psychology just yet, we might as well let these people live the best lives they can by catering to their fantasies. Maybe someday we'll know how exactly to "reprogram " unwanted parts of the human mind but we're so fucking far off from that it isn't even funny.
>>5389068
They shouldn't be grouped together, because the outcome of BIID and gender dysphoria are different, which makes them incredibly different diseases.
Going through with BIID makes it harder to be healthy and functioning in society; even if you're way happier after you blind yourself, you're still fucking blind in a world made for visual stimuli.
Going through with transitioning makes it easier to be healthy and functioning in society, besides society being a cunt about it every now and then. Reproduction isn't exactly necessary nowadays, so the increase in happiness isn't offset by a greater amount of damage, no matter how "gross" unaccepting people may find the whole process.
The entire point of medicine is to do more good than harm through treatment. Thus, transitioning makes sense, amputation does not.
I'm also convinced that biid is less body map than it is munchausen/factitious nonsense where improvement in the patient having undergone amputation etc is more relieved by social feedback than neuro-body harmony.
>instead of correcting the neurological problem in the brain
>let's chop off our fucking legs and dicks and proclaim ourselves normal
I love coming here for a good laugh at 1 AM.
>>5389278
Do you know how to correct the neurological problem in the brain, then?
Please do tell me.
>>5389291
No, mainly because since 1973 psycology and psychoanalysis has been completely hijacked by the left, and homosexuals and other sexual deviants themselves, to proclaim themselves normal and legislate all alternative treatments for mental illnesses such as homosexuality, transexuality, trans... ablism?, trans... specism? I see these backwards mental gymnastics of, "but it hurts them" and so on when the critism can be applied to each and every condition when really they are proposing self fellaciating rationalizations rather than addressing real issues.
So no, I can't tell you.
But that doesn't mean there isn't one.
>>5389068
>X is vaguely similar to Y, so why do treat different?????
>Bacteria are similar to viruses, so why do we treat them differently?
That is how stupid you sound
>>5389317
Then trannies are supposed to just sit there and suffer waiting for a cure that might not even come in their lifetime, I assume?
>>5389328
It certainly will never come in anyone's time if treatment is never developed.
Are we going to sit around and say
>let's accept a permanent external solution for temporary problem that severely mutilates people bodies and pumps them full of foreign drugs and hormones, leading to massive changes in the bodies not ment to be had
Or
>let's find one that fixes the problem at the root neurological process
Or we can sit around with our hands tied and ignore the no change in suicide rate from pre and post op, and the disproportionate number of MtFs to FtMS, or the gross idea that 8 year olds can declare themselves "trans".
>>5389068
Actually BIID sufferers should be treated very similarly to trans people. They do not usually find relief through therapy or medication, and only really self-report feeling relief or cessation of discomfort after (usually self administered) amputation. And after amputation they almost across the board report higher feelings of self-esteem and happiness. So what we should do to treat them is amputate their affected limbs and let them move on with their lives.
>>5389363
Lunacy.
>>5389317
>>5389278
Cool! So, since we haven't figured out the best treatment yet, we should just not get any treatment at all. Good strategy.
>instead of correcting the nervous system problem with parkinsons
>let's give them some pills to manage the symptoms and wait for the disease to kill them
>instead of curing the root cause of cancer
>let's fill the body with chemicals and radiation in order to maybe possibly control it
>instead of curing a simple bacterial infection pre-antibiotics
>lets just chop off an infected hand before it poisons the blood
Few people would say that a "neurological" cure wouldn't be best (if it even exists, which it probably doesn't), but this is the best we've got and the best we'll have for a long time, m8
>>5389349
I support what you mean, but do you understand how goddamn complex the brain is? And how hard it is for treatments to be tested anyway?
Even if there were support for a neuro cure, I think it'd take a long time, IF it happened at all.
I personally think it's better to have a "crazy" treatment than none, sitting back, suffering, waiting and hoping for the magical cure to come, especially in their lifetime
But I do think long therapy should be done first especially for those 8yo you said. And only if things are REALLY not working, then... Y'know.
I've been ~5 years in therapy and still have to wait more and I kept hoping, waiting, wishing this thing would go away and I'd just be fine again, trying my best, but... Do you have any idea how painful, exhausting it is, how much of a toll it takes? It's fucking indescribable, that's the thing.
I mean, dysphoria varies, some are able to deal with it eventually, actually, but still. Most of the time I don't think that's the case
>>5389374
I'm laughing at your logic.
We're both staving off the effects of all the neurological diseases and searching for cures simultaneously.
If anything the treatment for "trans" "people" would be to give them a combination of drugs and psycology to try and correct their mental issues and search for real treatment.
It always gives me a little chuckle when you guys take the old
>I'll be mildly sarcastic and emotional and throw in a couple sures! And hahahs!
Promptly shows the issue with your predispositions.
None of the examples you cited, especially the last one, refute any of the ideas I posted.
Anyway, my solution would be a bullet to their head. Because they will probably off themselves anyway, because their existence is allowed by nothing more than the wealth and leasurie of the unfortunate consumerist and capitalistic ideology that infects western civilization today.
Tata.
>>5389382
All I'll say is life sucks when you chose to want to be something you're not.
The more you remove personal responsibility, the more you'll suffer.
>>5389385
>you chose to want to be something you're not
>chose
>choosing all this fucking shit
>implying i chose
>implying i had a choice
>>5389392
Man has the most enormous will power, he can choose to do anything he wishes.
Some things just happen to make us think we can't.
Unless you're a women.
Then your shit out of luck, women really can't do anything right.
>>5389068
I know why you're asking this, but yes they are completely different topics with completely different solutions.
>>5389068
I'm fine with people doing that shit, because they're probably gonna do it anyway. I mean, it personally pisses me off that someone would want to be disabled, but I'm not really sure I have any right to stop someone from hacking their own legs off because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.
That might just be because of blood loss, as opposed to them becoming their handycapable spirit animal, but I try not to judge.
So sure, just give them a bunch of therapy to make sure they understand exactly what they're doing and why it's a terrible idea unless they're really that special snowflake that can't be happy with two working thumbs.
My big caveat here, is that we have to deal with these people afterwards. Trans is kind of innocuous in that way, because people can still function just fine after they transition. This is way different because of the fact that these people might not be able to work afterwards.
So my thoughts. Let them go through with it if they prove they can completley support themselves afterwards, without any kind of human or financial assistance.
If you want to cut off your arm, sure. Just don't get blood on the carpet and we're all square. If you want to cut off your arm, then live the rest of your life off of welfare with an in home assistant because you cut off your arm and can't work. Kindly go fuck yourself.
The idea that someone might do this shit doesn't bother me nearly as much as the idea that they will do this shit and then expect special privileges for doing so.
Past that, I would be somewhat concerned with this violating the hippocratic oath. Maybe there would have to be special doctors doing this procedure with certain certifications and training, that would have to work alongside a mental care physician to understand exactly what needs to be done and how to go about it. Put it up to an advisory board or something to make sure that it's all on the up and up. Something, I don't know.
baka desu senpai
>>5389068
this woman doesn't pass as female
>>5389486
>want
Nothing but pure hedonistic desires.
>>5389317
>>5389349
Phychology won't do a thing for biology.
We're allready on the threshold of successful gene therapy and you want the state to ban that and throw all the biomed researchers in prison so you can work on your pseudoscience.
We aren't gonna ban science we've made progress on just to soothe the hurt feelings of someone who'd rather their pseudoscience field.
>>5389486
>>5389068
Biology, hormonal abnormalities in utero do one. A disorder of sex development as its called.
>>5389993
Oh I'm laughing.
Of course you proclaim it to be a psudoscience.
Biology isn't going to fix your broken brain little boy.
>>538938
>demanding medicine be banned in favor of your lysenkoism
Yea, I think we're starting to see why the doctors made it through their programs and you didn't.
>>5390000
Biology is all we are, we've progressed with gene therapy to the point that RNAI is viable.
You say that's wrong and that humanity should regress to a discredited field that's been irrelevant since this millennium.
Not gonna become Luddites to satisfy your tantrum.
How could you be born with the brain of a blind person or a person without legs or a korean if you aren't those things?
Your brain sex is designated but whatever dose of hormones you get in utero. Is there a special hormone you can be exposed to in utero that makes your brain korean? That doesn't seem likely.
>>5390039
You think men and women have the same brains even with the overwhelming evidence against that?
>>5390043
You think all trans people have the brains of the sex they aren't born as? What if they have a perfectly normal brain for their body and yet still claim to be trans and have dysphoria?
>>5390051
I'd be all for a way to test it, I'm sure that a lot of people who claim to be trans aren't.
>>5390043
That is irrelevant, as a man can never have a "women's" brain, and vice versa.
Those are not the determination for "trans". 99% it's based on nothing more than "feeling", so we can never know if it's nothing more than a mental delusion, someone legitimately mentally retarded (chrischan lmfao), or if there is any legitimacy to the position at all.
I've already stated my solution.
Wealth and leasiure is a devilish thing.
>>5390064
Keep telling everyone the scientists lie and that their only way is your pseudoscience.
>Specifically, in a 304 voxel sized cluster affecting the left pre- and postcentral gyri a 32 voxel sized cluster affecting the left posterior cingulate, calcarine gyrus, and the precuneus, showed lower GM volume in MTF transgender patients and female controls compared to FTM transgender patients and male controls. The opposite direction of differences could be observed in a 123 voxel sized cluster in the right occipital lobe involving the middle and inferior occipital, the fusiform, and the lingual gyri, in a 42 voxel sized cluster affecting the right inferior temporal gyrus, where regional GM volume proved to be higher in MTF transgender patients and female controls compared with FTM transgender patients and male controls /PMC3877116/
>Compared to men and women, MtFs showed differences in a neural network including the medial prefrontal gyrus, the insula, and the precuneus when responding to male vs. female voices. With increased voice morphing men recruited more prefrontal areas compared to women and MtFs, while MtFs revealed a pattern more similar to women. On a behavioral and neuronal level, our results support the feeling of MtFs reporting they cannot identify with their assigned sex. /PMC4222943./
>We explored the specific hypothesis that male-to-female transsexualism is associated with gene variants responsible for undermasculinization and/or feminization...To date, this is the largest genetic study of transsexualism conducted. We observed a significant association between longer AR gene polymorphisms and male-to-female transsexualism. Longer CAG repeats in the AR gene lead to reduced binding of the AR protein to co-activator, due to its inhibitory interaction with the receptor, resulting in less effective testosterone signalling, a mechanism typically involved in masculinization of the brain during early development /PMC3402034/
>>5390064
It's not irrelevant it's part of the central point I'm making. You can be XY with a female brain and XX with a male brain.
None of that is affected by 'feelings', feelings are always the result of something not the root. I'm pretty certain we'll be able to check if somebody is trans in the near future.
If you had looked at any evidence you'd know the brains of some trans people have been examined after death.
I assume you've seen something pushed by the liberal media that says that if you feel like a girl you're a girl. That's bullshit, nobody knows what it feels like to be the sex they aren't so nobody can know the difference between the two. The only feeling people have is dysphoria, and that is just a side effect of being trans pre hrt.
>>5390092
An XY can't have "female brain" and a XX can't have a "male brain".
I'll start laughing when you go around trying to "test" babies for being "trans" ( a tiny minority of people) and end up ruining peoples lives because of some complete and total lunacy.
>>5390103
>>5390092 #
ttp://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943
>These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes. “It has been, in a sense, a philosophical change in our way of looking at sex; that it's a balance,” says Eric Vilain, a clinician and the director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California, Los Angeles. “It's more of a systems-biology view of the world of sex.”
>According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance. In 2009, researchers reported7 deactivating an ovarian gene called Foxl2 in adult female mice; they found that the granulosa cells that support the development of eggs transformed into Sertoli cells, which support sperm development. Two years later, a separate team showed8 the opposite: that inactivating a gene called Dmrt1 could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones. “That was the big shock, the fact that it was going on post-natally,” says Vincent Harley, a geneticist who studies gonad development at the MIMR-PHI Institute for Medical Research in Melbourne
Just cause you fell you know better than doctors doesn't make it so.
>>5390103
>Things can't happen because I said so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#XY_karyotype
>What is AIS?
Why the fuck would we test babies by then it's too late, a test for people thinking about transitioning would be more helpful just to confirm.
>>5390111
>a rare genetic malformation not related to "t*ans"
>validation for the condition
The extreme version of wanting surgery to feel satisfied with yourself or get higher has already been met. The person in the picture is about to drill a hole in their head, it's about the sickest thing I can imagine yet it's not really as extreme as going blind - or cutting off your dick.
I'm not fully against transitioning or people who do it but getting reassignment surgery seems a bit much, basically on the same scale of mutilating your body. Is it absolutely needed for drastic plastic surgery just to make you feel like yourself? Wouldn't that just be the final result of giving into delusion and abandoning your body?
>>5390126
You don't know it's not related but that's not my point. My point is it proves that somebody with XY dna can have a female brain.
>>5390134 →
The current way makes more money and is part of an ideological delusion of tolerance.
If people "want" to live a certain way then they "must" be respected and allowed to.
Any solutions preventing said way are banned and never allowed.
See
>>5383479
There is only one company that provides therapy and remediation for people, and it's been a tough uphill legal battle, and they get terrorized daily.
>>5390142
By pure and total genetic malfunction.
Not related at all.
>>5390134
It's not a delusion, it's not a mental disorder, surgery doesn't make you more or less either sex but it does relieve a lot of stress and gives people the chance at a more normal life. It's more like fixing a cleft pallet than blinding yourself.
>>5390151
>By pure and total genetic malfunction.
You said something's not possible, AIS proves it is. You can change your position as much as you want but you still don't have any evidence.
>>5390151
>If people "want" to live a certain way then they "must" be respected and allowed to.
You see you're again confusing bullshit liberal concepts with hard science. 'Feelings' and 'identity' have no place in the purely medical view of transsexualism, and the purely medical view of it is the only thing that really exists.
>>5389068
Yes an no. Only time will tell, the healthiness and success of the trans community rides on the idea that making the transition will result in a happier and healthier individual than before, and the results are not necessarily tried and proven.
