The last thread was cannibalised
Bank Tank Edition
> What's this thread about?
As usual this thread is for the discussion and pics of tracked and wheeled AFVs of all kinds from MBTs to supertanks to self propelled AA guns. Please keep it civil and cite sources for statistics.
During the Cold War, Switzerland’s “armed neutrality” produced tanks of its own. The Pz series of MBTs was initiated in 1951 after a long history of unsatisfactory usage of export tanks, dating back to the aftermath of the First World War with the delivery of the country’s first tank, the FT-17. Exports from France, Czechoslovakia and Britain, among others, resulted in a large pool of leftover parts, many of which would be recycled for ad hoc use, such as in the case of Czech anti-tank guns, fitted on a diverse array of tank chassis. However, it was in 1958 that the first prototype of the then Pz 58 was completed, sporting a Swiss 90 mm, followed by a second prototype, with a British 20 pounder. From 1960-61, a further ten test models were built, collectively under the nomenclature of Pz 61, this time armed with a 105 mm L7. From this point on, production was approved and 150 more would be built from 1964 and 1966 at the Federal Engineering Works, Thun. The design was identical to the prototypes, but with the notable addition of a 20 mm Oerlikon cannon to the turret’s left. From 1971-74, 170 improved models, dubbed the Pz 68, were built incorporating a vastly superior FCS and horizontal and vertical gun stabilisation, although sans 20 mm. The engine and transmission also underwent tweaks. The tank itself was cast, the turret not featuring a bustle, but slightly larger than the Pz 61. In 1988, a major renovation project, the Pz 68/88 was announced and carried out through the ‘90s. After the Pz 87, however, all models were retired in 2003.
> Gun
Rifled 105 mm L7
> Dimensions (l w h)
9.49 x 3.14 x 2.75 m
> Weight
39.7 tonnes
> Engine
660hp diesel
> Speed
55 km/h
>>29787653
OP: As always, feedback, suggestions wanted and appreciated.
Regarding the fate of the Pz 68, there was a proposal to comprehensively modernise the tank in what was called the Pz 68-2000 package, combining a 120 mm and modern sights/electronics with sorely needed fixes to the antiquated NBC sysetms, but this fell through when the Leopard 2 was offered instead, which proved to be a more capable alternative, compared to what was increasingly seen as an anachronistic part of the decidedly well-serviced Swiss military. The Pz 68 in its heyday had three distinct models, alongside the later 68/88, the Mk 1, 2 and 3. 50 Mk 2s were built in 1977, and the Mk 3 folded in its design all the improvements that the previous marks had fielded, coupled with a marginally larger turret. Interestingly, during the 1980s, there were trials with the chassis of the Pz 68 being used as a basis for anti-aircraft systems such as the contemporary Gepard. In addition, another prototype, called the Panzer-Kanone 68 was built fitting a 155 mm gun on the 68 chassis, the gun purportedly reaching a not unimpressive range of 30 km. Another thing – early on, the Swiss contemplated a machine gun position dedicated to the commander, but then abandoned this hastily, as it was concluded that the commander should direct, rather than fire an MG in combat.
The bottom line, as far as the Pz 68 is concerned, is that while it was a fine tank for its time, if not quite the heaviest, armour thickness being comparable to a T-55 around the time early models came into service in 1965, it grew obsolete very quickly, and it was no surprise to anyone that the German Leopard 2 became the staple of the Swiss military thereafter.
Also, I’m trying to change things up from Soviet prototypes all the time, what else would you guys recommend?
>>29787656
More tank news, as per the new format.
If you have more queries regarding a news story, just point it out, and I’ll further elaborate and provide links.
The monumentally large $11 billion USD Canadian arms deal to Saudi Arabia announced late last year, now faces a possible injunction, after a legal challenge was filed with the Federal Court of Canada by an MP. Canadian law prohibits the export of arms to nations in violation of human rights or in active conflict.
RUAG has developed an enhanced version of the M109 howitzer aimed at the export market. The Swiss Army has been the first beneficiary of the new Pz Hb 88/95 standard for its M109s, with major changes including 47 calibre chrome plated ordnance as opposed to the 39 calibre type, as well as significant changes to the exterior and interior of the turret.
Belarus’ Design Office Display has developed an improved version of its indigenous RWS known as the Adunok-W. The new pattern fits a Russian 12. 7mm NSVT and a 30 mm AG-17A as opposed to a single choice between the 7.62 mm PKT, 12.7 mm Kord or 30 mm AG-17A.
SAGEM has begun producing its Passeo modular advanced stabilising system (MASS) for an unidentified export customer. The component has been identified already on the CMI Defence Cockerill 3030/40 and 3105 turrets mounted on a GDLS (Europe) MOWAG Desert Piranha 5. According to SAGEM, Paseo MASS can detect targets out to a distance of 12,000 m, recognise them at a range of 7,300 m, and identify them at 4,200 m.
Finally, Nexter Systems has commenced the initial phase of extensive Leclerc upgrades affecting both MBTs and ARVs in the French Army. The contract concerns a $339.5 milion USD contract covering the upgrade of 200 Renovated Leclercs and 18 Renovated ARVs, to be carried out at Nexter’s Roanne facility, and continue through 2018 until 2028, with the possibility of further numbers of tanks being added.
And that’s all for now.
As always a good read, thanks tank guy.
V day
>>29787701
the star of this year is the IFV bumerang
>>29787726
looks like a stryker
>>29787729
more like a combined of the Patria AMV and French VBCI and BTR-90
https://fotki.yandex.ru/users/mudamuda2016/album/521471/
>>29787740
>>29787784
I hope those
>tfw when you fell for
autists don't come in and shit up the thread.
Question for /thg/ guy - have you done the AMX 30 yet? If not, it would be pretty cool to have a thread on it.
Also, pic is something I found on google, modernized Pz.
>>29787653
Should have talked about all the problems.
tanks are GAY
>>29787860
Looks like a baby LAV-25 hehe
Armor is thin as fuck what is the point of this?
>double barrel tanks will never be practical
>you will never see this on a battlefield
feels bad man
>>29787884
tfw Russian go with the bullshit barrel liquid cooling bullshit instead of pic related
>>29787883
probably only needs to hold off small arms
>>29787899
Aside from looking badass does this actually have any pros?
>>29787915
more rapid fire maybe at the expense of the cooling?
>>29787839
I suppose you're right, the Pz 68 had a litany of issues.
Richard Ogorkiewicz states that the primary handicap of the Pz 68 and 61 was its 3.06 m rail guage width limitation that basically constituted a hard cap on its weight and size. Its electronics were unreliable, and its transmission required the tank to stop before reversing. NBC systems, which in the context of Cold War tanks, seen as a fundamental part of tank warfare, did not offer advertised levels of protection. In addition, single pin tracks, which had been presented as lasting for some 2500 km or even beyond, had in reality a lifespan of between 1000-2000 km. The Swiss Federal Council, leading an investigation on the tank, concluded that it was not suitable for engagement with contemporary tanks, although the problems apparent could be rectified, and the fourth series of tanks were given the go ahead to be completed. However, other measures were also taken.
The Contraves Company, in 1978 was given a contract for the NKPz, a successor to the Pz 68, specifically eliminating the issue of the width gauge, and with better interior configuration, such as a front mounted engine and ammunition stowed at the back, while also having a two man turret. Unfortunately, due to unfavourable assessment's of Switzerland's infrastructural capacities, the NKPz was never built. Hence, the stage was set for the Leopard 2 to come onto the scene later on.
Also, a little mistake on my part, I mentioned that there were three marks of the Pz 68, but there were in fact four such versions.
>>29787833
I'm afraid I have done the AMX 30, but I'll happily take other suggestions.
Polish 'Rak' 120mm mortar turret.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKuyQeEY0rY
>>29787915
>>29787920
yep, greater ROF
single barrel SPG ROF are limited by the speed of the crew and barrel heat
>>29787915
>does this actually have any pros?
it allows you to fire more rapidly.
>>29787860
that's cute that they took the turret from a scorpion.
>>29787653
Oh I so wish that I could show you pictures. Working as a mechanic in one of the logistic bases i see all of the current swiss vehicles and their armory.
>>29787946
what happen to the 2S1 chassis variant?
the Pol bought 8 company of the AMV variant but none 2S1 chassis
>>29787950
Is there any real reason they wouldn't try this with a tank? At least experiment with it?
>>29787975
the cons outweigh the pros, the only reason artillery/mortars can justify it is MRSI
>>29787995
fell shit, that's depressing
>>29787833
>the fell for"
what?
>>29787975
There have been a number of experimental double barrel tank designs, none of them worked out.
>>29788029
Check the catalogue, it's a shitstorm. Not that it is a departure from /k/ on a normal day, I guess.
>>29788029
Sone retard is spamming the he fell for meme x threads.
>>29787975
>Is there any real reason they wouldn't try this with a tank?
they did try it. see pic related.
>>29788034
why must all the cool shit not be practical
>>29788058
Because all the practical stuff gets used and so seems normal, even if it something crazy like ERA or APS.
>>29788058
We had M113s with 20mm HispanoSuiza autocannons, bloodhound rockets, giant automatic rockets, an own jet N-20 (sadly halted by those fools). Live is so hard in this generation. All the cool stuff is gone and the military is economizing itself to death.
>>29788100
*giant automatic mortars Iam sorry I just had tears in my eyes.
>>29787653
>>29788216
Where is that?
Post your best meme tank
>>29788277
considering the Leopard2 and Merkava Mk4
>>29788255
>>29788277
Chrysler V8 Dont have a picture because Im ony phone.
>>29788176
>>29788300
Hey, that tank belongs to my company. Neat. I wonder when is this pic from.
Is that koalitsia double barelled gun mounted on one of those vintage world war 2 B-10 chassis?
>>29788331
2012-2013
i got the pic from Militaryphoto, i think
>>29788323
You mean this retarded thing?
>>29788343
yep, they have tons of them in different caliber left over from ww2 and they use them as chassis to test new tank gun and SPG gun
pic related is the prototype for the 2A82, i think
>>29788379
That is amazing. They actually use their 65 year old surplus. Any footage of them shooting ? I want to see it recoil.
>>29788386
>>29788379
"you see Ivan, russian don't waste good metal, wasting is what cyka americans use, be like boris, use great patriotic material, is of good for country"
>>29788216
>>29788255
and more importantly, what is that?
> inb4 a tank
How much does a single track weigh for the M1 Abrams? I cant really find a clear answer on google.
>>29788346
I see. Thanks, anon.
>>29788412
That's a very comfy image anon
>>29788412
Dont really know much about the merkava, but cant you store loads of stuff in the back of the tank?
>>29788255
Armeemuseum, Burgdorf (Switzerland)
>>29788415
Here is another one.
>>29788419
Not LOADS of stuff, but we can store stuff in there, and we oftenly do, but safety protocols say it supposed to be clear for times we need to dismount.
>>29788437
>>29788412
why are tanks majestic as fuck>\?
>>29788412
The soil seems fertile enough to feed all the Palestinians with potatoes.
>>29788437
Israel is more diverse when it comes to landscape than youd imagine, huh. The first thng which comes to mind is desert, but you lot get snow and grass and everything.
>>29788435
Cheers have a collection of swiss pictures.
>>29788457
Pz 58 Prototype (one of 13). I walked past that awesome thing everytime I walked to the messhall to eat.
>>29788462
>>29788450
Yep. We got pretty much everything here.
>>29788466
Flabtank 68 built on the chassis of the tank 68
>>29788479
>>29788484
>>29787653
Please thread dont die on me.
T-rex bump
>>29787653
As the thread is dedicated to tracked vehicles, would anyone by any chance have any info about the Kanonenjagdpanzer 4-5? I'm mainly searching for info on the ammunition it used, but so far I've only found a document saying it used the same type of ammo as M48 (http://www.panzertruppe.com/detailansicht/id-50-jahre-fahrzeuge-der-gepanzerten-kampftruppen.html). Wikipedia says it used HESH, HEAT and smoke rounds, but I've been having trouble finding the characteristic of those rounds as I don't know which ones exactly they are.
>>29788500
Is that just a modernized version of the Jadpanther
>>29787653
Vehicle details in German/french
>>29788504
It's more of a Jagdpanzer IV design
>>29788407
I found this page
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/weight-of-tank-tracks.135918/
where someone claims 2200 kg each
>>29788407
https://youtu.be/dG4CLaBMfVU?t=2m32s
>>29788437
Perfect! How many dismounts do you carry, and can you pack the 60mm mortar in addition to dismounts? what is your opinion on trophy?
>>29788638
>How many dismounts do you carry,
None, usually. We might carry one or two if they are wounded and there are no other means of CasEvac around.
>and can you pack the 60mm mortar in addition to dismounts?
We have an integrated 60mm mortar in the turret, operated by the loader.
>what is your opinion on trophy?
I really couldn't ask for anything better.
>>29788444
volcanic ash soil, you bet your ass its as fertile as a palestinian womb
>>29788824
>We have an integrated 60mm mortar in the turret, operated by the loader.
Is it ever used and it is it useful or would you rather take it out and save the space.
>>29788881
We don't fire it much, but it doesn't take much space in turret either, so we don't mind having it.
>>29787708
He doesn't really look like a tanker, it'd be better if he'd be shown inside a tank or next to it.
>>29787883
it can stop .380 hollow points. not hard ball tho.
>>29788378
>>29789061
Cause you'd fucking know
>>29787860
Nigga that's cute and all, but the common ak47 ripoff could kill the driver.
http://youtu.be/y4ulz7z_DpQ
360 of T90 in May 9 rehearsals.
>>29789463
Are we going to get more than 30 seconds on the T-14 this year?
>>29789463
Man I love the Shtola so much.
Switzerland has made some very strange armored vehicles
>>29789463
50% of comments are "fuck NATO" fucking slavs
>>29789623
It looks like a fat Stug.
>>29789623
>>29789574
beautiful isnt it
>>29789623
I love being able to augment every tank from the Tank museum in Thun.
>>29789623
Here is the predecesor. They realized quickly that it wasnt well armored and upgraded.
>>29789717
Built with some parts of the PzKw 39 after the blockade of deliveries due to Nazi war effort some guys tried wrentching together this tankdestroyer. Which then got revised again.
>>29787653
Here a pic of the improved armor on a Panzer 68 prototype
This Prototype can be seen in the museum of Burgdorf switzerland
>>29789763
>>29788466
>>29788462
Yes there are my pics of it.
>>29787935
Ah yes, the NKPz the lovechild of a Merkava and a Leopard 2
>>29789658
Are you stationed in Thun? if yes what function?
Also don't forget the Taifun, probably one of last assault guns to ever be developed (it was never adopted though)
>>29789794
Was during basics, weaponsmech. (Legal disclaimer: No opsec this is not disclosed information, no the pics werent taken during my service time(well 5 minutes after my basics were over and i was civilian again)
>>29789717
Looks like a Marder III
>>29789815
Were you later in Lyss? If yes Rapier or 35mm?
>>29789871
Well it was partitialy built with the few parts of Pz 39s switzerland recieved from Czechoslovakia before everything went down south. so yes similarity is basicly given. but they never had the parts to mass produce and changed to the gustav instead.
>>29789886
Nah just infantry weapons/vehicle armament.
>>29788931
Any pics of it? Never got a clear view of that thing
What would /thg/ call his tank?
>>29790002
Boombox
>>29790002
Estoc
>>29790063
Vasya
>>29790002
Adagio for Strings
>>29790186
That's NSFW, I suggest you delete it.
>>29790002
Something cool like Traitor.
>M1A3 Traitor.
>>29790268
4chan is an 18+ website
>>29790268
I like it, really.
>>29790282
What's wrong with it?
>inb4 le edgy XD
>>29790282
Common names are dad-cool shit like Cobra, Python, Tiger and girl names. Finesse would be Traitor, Spectre, Crusader, shit like that. Now, humor I can stand is >>29790063
>>29790314
Well I genuenly named a Pz 87 WE (Leopard 2 variant) like this using paint.
>>29790002
Well, considering I've already called my tank something, I guess it's already decided for me.
>Adieu to Innocence
I'm quite proud of that name because it was the only one in my platoon that had above the 15 character limit set by the Captain and that I had to go stand before his desk to argue why my tank deserved 16 characters in its name.
>>29790391
That's awesome, I love the name a lot. How does it work? Will the next tanker unit who uses that tank change the name?
>>29790391
In which country you are a tanker?
>>29790486
>Will the next tanker unit who uses that tank change the name?
I honestly don't know. This was back when I was actually in the Army, and I left in 2008. When I left, the barrel of "my" tank still bore the words "Adieu to Innocence" on it's bore extractor.
Most likely it changed as soon as a new commander stepped into the seat vacated. That's just how things go, you want to make a mark on the crew as soon as you're assigned and the easiest way to do that is to change the name of the tank.
>How does it work?
The "rules" set by the captain was that the name had to start with an A (because we were Alpha Platoon" and it had to be under 15 letter (he said characters, but that includes spaces, which he didn't think about, so it was really just letters). I wanted "Adieu to Innocence" which is 16 letters, so I had to go stand in front of his desk and say "I fucking love this name" and he replied "As long as you can make it fit, I'll let you do it."
>>29790515
'Murica, of course
>>29790557
Didn't know you could do that, can you put some other ornaments like logos or something? Could you put zerg face on the front plate? Is there a place where i could see other tanks with their uniqe names? Or only our unit alllowed that?
>>29790568
>our
meant to say your.
>>29790557
Thanks. Recently got interested in the local army, would apply for the tank unit as first option, so i like to read all this stuff on /k/. They use the Leopard 2A4 and 2E, which I don't dislike, but i'll hardly ever man a T90U or a Merk IV anytime soon.
Thanks again.
>>29790568
So, most American tank units are going to have the name of the tank placed on the gun. That's pretty much Army wide. (see pic-related for an example). My company's captain was a dick and required that the name fit on JUST the bore extractor (i.e. why he had the letter limit on the names)
As for anything else to decorate the tank, that's up to the individual units. The Major of my bn was pretty chill, but the captain of my company was very strick, so the only individualization we were allowed was the name.
>>29790614
>Recently got interested in the local army, would apply for the tank unit as first option,
Good for you man, all the more power to you.
I will just remind you very quickly that 1) a tank unit is ALWAYS dangerous, even in peace time (see pic-related) and 2) there's very little that you'll learn as a tanker that'll help you get a job in the civilian world when you get out (beyond what you learn as a soldier anyways, such as discipline, teamwork, etc.)
>>29789923
I would have taken a pic for you, but unfortunately we were deployed in Hebron and our tanks are up north in the Golan.
>>29789923
You want video of mortar in Merkava turret? Not sure I understand question, but here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS6KG2LoAMQ&list=PLetzdzqx3dNX7MTDQ6mB62M5bj7ivPHo_&index=20
T14's uncrewed turret is hardly a new technology and adds a lot of new issues, compared to ones that it solves.
Modular design is a buzzword, all 3+ generation tanks minus the T72+ models, are pretty much all "modular"
2A82 gun is a new 2A46 originally made at the beggining of the cold war. The 2A46 is one of the worst guns ever put into a tank, suffering pressurization issues, accuracy issues, and only can shoot 200 rounds before needing replaced.
Tank crews actuall can fix some broken equipment inside tanks
>inb4 a butthurt russian tries to prove basic physics wrong or posts unsourced claims
Video game estimates on armor values are retarded, so stop sharing those pictures, not only are they wrong, the derail the thread.
Driver can't see without periscopes lol
etc etc etc
>>29790654
4 deaths that would never have happened in a T-14
and then americans claim their tank is "modern"
>>29790772
Can you think of a more modern tank then the american one? Because I can't.
>>29790772
>slavaboos vs americlaps
I just wanna talk about tanks guys, come on.
>>29790770
>Tank crews actuall can fix some broken equipment inside tanks
Anything the tank crew could fix in the tank, could just be designed not to break in the first place.
>>29790770
>The 2A46 is one of the worst guns ever put into a tank, suffering pressurization issues, accuracy issues, and only can shoot 200 rounds
ever hear about 2A46M and 2A46M2 2A46M5 ect?
>>29790614
España my friend?
>>29790654
>TC reached over the gun to check the coax rounds
And where was the loader in this? Keep in mind the Coax rounds are 3-4 ft from the TC. The loader is 1 ft. The TC could not POSSIBLY check the mg ammo without removing his gaurds, so this smells fishy and should have died anyway for violating the most basic safety features.
>Electrical Fire
Sounds awfully a lot like another story that DID happen. But let me look at this.There are a number of drivers that have become trapped in the hull before during X event and died. But with the turret over the 3 o clock position that is literally the perfect spot for the driver to get out, there is no overhang for the turret to block him. Also what fucking emergency hatch? There are only 2 places to get out of the drivers position, the hatch, or through the turret when the gunners seat is next to him, (about 9 o clock) or when the turret is over the 5-7. Smells funny to me.
One that DID happen, a tank on the Fort Hood training area, the NBC system unknowingly caught fire. The turret began filling with smoke. The gunner armed the Coax, to which he thought activated the "second" NBC system to flush the tank. It spread the fire faster and the turret personnel hopped out, and trapped the driver. It was a night op, and the driver had a bolted in night vision display, to which he didn't hand tighten the knobs holding it up, he used a multitool to crank them down. He couldn't find the tool to remove the device, and he died.
>laploading rounds
Sounds plausible, but the shells need a significant amount of energy to actually be set off.
>.50 cal ND kill
slightly plausible, just hard to believe really.
Literal retardation in every story, that's the only reason any of these people died.
>>29790829
Did you know the 120mm put into the Abrams and leopard were so good out of the factory they didn't have those issues and are still used today?
A gun is only as accurate as the optics and ballistic computers anyway.
>>29790770
someone update the abrams one like this
>>29790843
Yeah, Murcia.
>>29790889
No way mate. I used to live there until I moved 2 years ago. Im a Brit though, so no hate please.
Que coincidencia, nene.
>>29790866
>Did you know the 120mm put into the Abrams and leopard were so good out of the factory they didn't have those issues and are still used today?
sure, because they were put into service in 1980
the 2A46 was 1960
so you should compare the L44 with gun in the same era like 2A46M
>>29790883
>Capitalizing random words
Kill yourself.
>>29788824
Thanks for the answer! Pertaining that Gaza conflict, what are you taught to do if you see pickup trucks (or similar) in a combat setting? And at what distance can you reliably identify wether or not one would be armed/ magnification on your optics?
>>29790932
and its still better then the 2A46M
>>29791030
Armed pickups are pretty easy to identify even a few kilometers away. We are taught to send HEAT or APAM straight to the engine block.
>>29791290
Is the official language of Isreal hebrew? How well will I fit in if I learn basic arabic, ontop of my english?
How do I get citizenship in Israel?
>>29791290
Alright. I asked because of this video. Had a controversy about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8G-Y3nzgPk
What do you think about it?
>>29790883
But seriously though a VLS ATGM carrier sounds pretty alright
>>29791348
Not him but having a guy get out of a truck and point something that looks like a shoulder launched ATGM at you might spook a crew.
>>29791348
fucking journalists lol
"Hey guys its a warcrime to hurt me!"
No it isn't
>>29788300
really israbros ??
>>29791366
Betcha all the people knocking it now would love if it the US built one, s m h
>>29788331
Are you the guy in the back giving the zergface grin or the autist in front of him inspecting the rock?
The more i think about it, the more the T-14 gives of a "T-64" vibe.
Fancy new technology which might prove to be immature and horribly expensive still. Also, i am worried about the lack of a 12.7mm machinegun and how awfully exposed all those sensors are. Then there is the fact that the armour of the unmanned turret itself doesnt look to be that thick and that it can be easily penned by 120mm NATO guns.
I would be more at ease if there was an option to mount the T-90MS turret ontop of the Armata vehicle.
>>29792237
kek
>>29792237
lol
>>29789050
>He doesn't really look like a tanker
hello newfag
>>29787708
fuckmefrenchfag
>>29792160
Betcha all the people would knock it if the US built one, s m h
>>29788045
This seems to be specifically about turretless vehicles though.
Whats with the fabric on the side of this BMPT?
Mud is still a bastard.
>>29789050
>tanker
I fucking told you that he didn't look human.
>>29791310
>Is the official language of Isreal hebrew?
Yes.
>How well will I fit in if I learn basic arabic, ontop of my english?
Better stick to your english, but knowing arabic can be useful around here.
>How do I get citizenship in Israel?
I feel like google would be more useful than me in that matter.
>>29791348
That's war. Shit happens. The TV crew knew the risks of filming in an active warzone. I don't know what was going on inside the tank in these moments, but I would like to believe the TC had a valid reason to call the shot.
>>29792211
The pic was taken before I was assigned to the company. Besides, these guys are infantry. I would be inside in my gunner seat.
>>29792475
>This seems to be specifically about turretless vehicles though.
are you implying that putting two guns into a turret would solve the problems mentioned in that image?
because it's pretty obvious that those problems would only be increased.
I'm pretty sure that's corrugated standoff armor of some sort.
>>29792574
To whom are you replying?
>>29792492
Huh, when was this picture taken?
>>29791366
Are you the "tanks must be VLS" autist?
Did the guy who took a buttload of pictures at a museum ever post them?
>>29793311
a VLS tank brigade would stomp a gun tank brigade
>>29787708
Merci frenchfag
>>29790770
Hahaha
>>29789050
Hello, It's charlie
>>29792601
I think anon is responding to >>29792478 about the material on the sides of the hull.
>>29789463
I wish I had a vibrating chair
>>29794308
What are the estimated penetration stats on the Ataka? I can't find anything official.
>>29795056
According to FAS (no idea how reliable), it can punch through 900 mm of RHA.
>>29788548
Abrams turrets complete with consoles for shitposting.
>>29792226
>Fancy new technology which might prove to be immature and horribly expensive still
The T-64 had 15 years of development and testing behind it, the T-14 has only been in that state for what, 6 years? Also most of the major systems and implemented technologies have already passed the initial R&D phase and been used in earlier projects (albeit those have never made it past prototype stage themselves) .
>Also, i am worried about the lack of a 12.7mm machinegun
Don't be. the RWS mount is a derivative of the one used for the T-90MS and that one has been shown to be able to mount a 12.7 mm HMG just fine.
>how awfully exposed all those sensors are.
As long as the expensive electro-optics devices are under the turret ring its all daijobu. Sight heads are just mirrors and mechanical adjustment devices that are cheap as fuck.
The other outboard sensors like the AESA panels you can't do much about, but its highly unlikely anyways that they would get hit without first informing the tank where the fire came from.
>Then there is the fact that the armour of the unmanned turret itself doesnt look to be that thick and that it can be easily penned by 120mm NATO guns.
And so? They can pierce holes in it all day long but as long as it doesn't take out the gun an its attendant mechanism plus the sights the turret is still perfectly operational.
>I would be more at ease if there was an option to mount the T-90MS turret ontop of the Armata vehicle.
What's the point? If you are looking for a T-72 analogue there is no need. Remember the T-72 itself existed because the SU can't produce the T-64 in the quantities needed for mobilization in wartime- Russians don't plan on fighting a prolonged war of attrition against NATO anymore and they can't really so its all moot.
Plus the unmanned turret is probably actually a lot simpler to construct than a manned one.
>>29796501
I still don't get why they chose unmanned turret though. Is it just Russians being Russians or is there a reasoning behind it?
>>29796780
>I still don't get why they chose unmanned turret though. Is it just Russians being Russians or is there a reasoning behind it?
primarily weight. ~1m thick armor as found on the frontal hull of the T-14 would push the weight of a Soviet style turret to 20 tons, and a western turret to 30. Then you consequently uprate everything from there: the turret traverse mechanisms need to be beefed up, the suspension too, a moar powerful engine needs to be installed, etc. etc. In the end you are looking at 60 ton soviet style tanks that lost most of their advantages as a small and relatively lightweight design and 70-80 ton western behemoths whose disadvantages due to weight are even more exacerbated.
Secondly, an unmanned turret offers a lot more room for perspective upgrades as compared to a manned one. For instance, the 140 mm calibre was not adopted for use in current manned turreted tanks. It was found that even though the ammo count was decreased to 30, the volume they occupy and the their weight was still greater than 40 120 mm rounds- a loader can't exactly be as effective with them as before and there isn't much place to safely store them, aside from a fuck huge bustle that requires armor itself. The recoil force doubles so the brakes need to be significanltly beefed up. The bigger gun also meant a bigger space for it do depress and elevate fully so the turret interior needs to be expanded too. A bigger mantlet is also required an one that would need substantial armor due to its huge size. all in all
the increase in the turret and its armor volume means about 10 tons added while if you include the weapons themselves its closer to 15.
http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/ar/t1514.htm
That much hassle, as compared to the T-14's unmanned turret that was said to be able to mount a 152 mm gun no problem(which is very much likely, since the Obj 195 mounted such a weapon itself).
>>29792226
this
>>29796780
It's more a display of technological power. And by having a completely new tank they've effectively got a clean slate as far as their reputation of their armour is. Kinda like a "we know our old stuff had its flaws but look shiny new stuff that hasn't got those problems" and by having in unmanned turret that now another countries MBT's have they can boast how futuristic it is. Time will tell how much it lives up to its hype and I really hope it does.
>>29796780
because the T-95 have an unmanned turret
>>29797111
So basically it's just dick waving?
>>29796501
>They can pierce holes in it all day long but as long as it doesn't take out the gun an its attendant mechanism plus the sights the turret is still perfectly operational.
Any solid hit by a 120mm APFSDS will disable, if not outright destroy, the gun and associated mechanisms.
>>29796780
The real answer is because its a universal hull and a manned turret would require too large of a turret ring.
>>29797140
Well I'd say beneficial dick waving. If the armata works like advertised It will be a force to be reckoned with. But if I was crewing an Abram's or leopard I wouldn't be shaking in my boots about it having to go up against one.
>>29797152
>Any solid hit by a 120mm APFSDS will disable, if not outright destroy, the gun and associated mechanisms.
IF they directly hit those. otherwise its just a 2 in. hole in and 2 in. hole out the turret like all those times Abrams blue on blue'd Bradleys and M113s with sabots.
>>29797111
They managed to sell T-90S like hotcakes with just a simple rebranding so I don't think reputation means that much.
>>29797077
Nice meme but it lacks proper context. The T-64 was only a mistake since it was so ahead of its time, the SU was not prepared for it. Only a single factory had the tooling and expertise to create its new engine and only a handful of factories even produced all the other advanced subsystems such that in the decades after its introduction most tank-related improvements had to be earmarked for the T-64 first and took a couple more years to reach other tanks(resulting in situations like the stagnation of the T-72 design and the T-80 adapting a T-64 turret not once but twice.). The crews also had to be much more highly trained and even more importantly professional- no fucking way they can afford 20k tanks manned by full-time specialists. Then the maintenance would require the crews to be taught how to maintain everything until major overhauls etc. etc.
>>29796780
YOU SEE COMRADE, IF WE STICK WOMAN AS GUNNER AND LOADER THEN TURRET IS UNMANNED
>>29797276
>>29792226
wow, t-14 looks like Pz4 from the thumbnail
>>29797244
How could you make something ahead of its time and not be prepared for it.
Since were talking about russian tanks. What about the Ukrainians, do they actually have any good gear or is it just mostly shoddy russian knockoffs?
>>29797244
>IF they directly hit those. otherwise its just a 2 in. hole in and 2 in. hole out the turret like all those times Abrams blue on blue'd Bradleys and M113s with sabots.
You can stop posting now.
>>29797244
In contrast, the Russians have been going the whole NATO- route of professional tankers. AFAIK specialist positions are no longer held by privates(conscript) once they reach full target of contract soldiers. This means their tankers now have enough time to train and learn more about their new advanced tanks and avoid hilarious mistakes like pulling the parking brake in the middle of the parade! lol.
>>29797173
>But if I was crewing an Abram's or leopard I wouldn't be shaking in my boots about it having to go up against one.
Depends. The new Russian sabots are no longer constrained by length and are fired at a much higher pressure than before- and one is DU though the other WHA round is nasty as well given that it reaches the sweet spot of 1.8-2 km/s.
Pic. related. An M1A2SEPv3 with weight sims for the NEA(Next Evolutionary Armor) Upgrade program - that only came out in FY15, same year of the T-14's introduction- coincidence?
>>29797334
>How could you make something ahead of its time and not be prepared for it.
Ask the Germans.
>>29797436
>What about the Ukrainians, do they actually have any good gear or is it just mostly shoddy russian knockoffs?
Unfortunately they don't. They gutted their own defence industries so thoroughly even basic equipment maintenance is a major issue for them.
>>29797453
>You can stop posting now.
nice rebuttal.
>>29797461
>M1A2SEPv3 with weight sims for the NEA(Next Evolutionary Armor) Upgrade program - that only came out in FY15, same year of the T-14's introduction- coincidence?
They always give the Abrams a new Armor package with each substantial upgrade so that's nothing out of the ordinary.
But yeah they are probably concerned about the T-14, the military has always taken Russian armor seriously.
However I would wager increased ATGM protection is a higher priority to them seeing as how ATGMs are now everywhere in the middle east and we are more likely to go back there than get into a shooting war with Russia.
The SEPv3 is also getting increased IED and lower limb protection and I don't think they expect to see too many IEDs in a war with Russia.
>>29797436
An Oplot is more advanced than a T-90A, particularly the Nozh ERA vs Kontakt-5.
The obvious problem being the lack of funds to produce Oplots, T-64's still make up the bulk of Ukraine's active tank force.
>>29797537
Making a statement that is obviously derived from playing video games does not deserve a proper rebuttal.
>>29797579
>dont expect to see many IED's in russia.
Dont the russians allways seem to have a large guerilla network when someone invades? Their partisans seemed quite active in german occupied areas.
>>29797581
Dont they only have about 20?
>>29797461
>that only came out in FY15, same year of the T-14's introduction- coincidence?
I wasn't aware that the T-14 was introduced back when armor for the ~70 ton GCV was being developed.
>>29797592
I'm not saying there wont be any IEDs, but they're certainly more common in the ME.
>>29797579
>However I would wager increased ATGM protection is a higher priority to them seeing as how ATGMs are now everywhere in the middle east and we are more likely to go back there than get into a shooting war with Russia.
Due to the proliferation of ATGM's, getting Trophy as a stopgap has become a high priority for the US Army and USMC.
>>29797635
Maybe , i remember reading ww2 russian manuals on IED's , they covered essentially everything , even a couple pages on how to shape the charge to go through a railway line using the least ammount of explosive. Thought that to be really cool.
>>29797461
I think it's more of a statement from the US really
>>29797579
>However I would wager increased ATGM protection is a higher priority to them seeing as how ATGMs are now everywhere in the middle east and we are more likely to go back there than get into a shooting war with Russia.
AFAIK even the much vaunted Kornet has trouble with the frontal armor of the latest tanks. Also if it was oriented for HEAT munitions it wouldn't require that much heavy steel plates since composites are a lot less denser than heavy metals used for improving protection more against APFSDS.
>>29797581
>An Oplot is more advanced than a T-90A, particularly the Nozh ERA vs Kontakt-5.
Nozh is a 2000 era development whilst K-5 is from the late 80s so I'm inclined to believe you.
>>29797588
>Making a statement that is obviously derived from playing video games does not deserve a proper rebuttal.
as opposed to popular myths of sabots piercing the armor and injecting insanely high pressures that everything is purried inside which you seem to subscribe to.
>>29789050
Hello, its Charlie!!
>>29797610
>I wasn't aware that the T-14 was introduced back when armor for the ~70 ton GCV was being developed.
NEA is from this 2015 document:
http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2015/pdf/army/2015m1a2sep3.pdf
the GCV was cancelled way back in 2014.
>>29797579
> IEDs in a war with Russia.
They have whole warehouses of mukhas so I don't think IEDs are the primary threat in case of a Russian insurgency. It would be more like a nationwide Chechnya with all the arms depots full of anti-tank weapons being emptied for use.
Additional 100 T-14 tanks ordered:
https://rns.online/lightnings/Minoboroni-RF-zakupilo-100-tankov-armata-2016-04-19/?pasas
>>29790002
Moscow Express
>>29797693
Not him but do you believe that once a sabot goes through armour it just exits the other side?
>>29798020
>Not him but do you believe that once a sabot goes through armour it just exits the other side?
Back before spall liners were a thing it also involved showers of hot lethal fragments moving at high speeds (spall) and the turret perforation being under fire. Nowadays yeah, its just hole in hole out unless of course it hits someone or something and if that something is ammo or fuel massive fire ensues and kills the tank.
>>29798009
>Moscow Express
>implying it would even make the next block on a single tank of gas.
>>29797693
>as opposed to popular myths of sabots piercing the armor and injecting insanely high pressures that everything is purried inside which you seem to subscribe to.
You are creating a strawman to hide a stupid statement being called out. Just as a sabot passing through will not puree the insides of a vehicle there is more interaction than clean holes in vehicle walls.
And a T-14's turret is too small for the amount of equipment inside to allow a clean pass through.
Pz. 61 in the Musée des Blindés in Samur, France.
>>29798051
Spall liners do little when the liner itself is penetrated.
>>29797581
Bulat doesn't use thermals...
>>29798051
>actually worried about logistics
kek never change slavs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_light_tank
FWIW I think the stingray II should be downsized into a 40mm gun carrier.
I like it looks better without the side skirts.
>>29798051
You won't put a Spall liner inside an unmanned turret...
>>29797730
>NEA is from this 2015 document:
You will find NEA referenced in any document that talks about the Abrams ECP. Here is one from 2013.
https://www.ausa.org/publications/armymagazine/archive/2013/10/Documents/WeaponsCombatSystems_GreenBook2013.pdf
To Frenchfag, whenever he shows up, just how big of an advantage is physically being on top of the tank and turned out?
>>29798091
Bulat's have either a TO1-KO1ER night sight or a Buran-Catherine thermal sight.
>>29798102
Moscow is ~25 miles wide from east to west, so an Abrams would be able to drive across the city at least 10 times on a full tank.
>>29790002
BABA BOMBA
>>29798148
The situational awareness the TC has while turned out is pretty much unparalleled.
>>29798192
Can some one tell me about the ROWS used on tanks nowadays ?? The T 14 has one, I heard the T80 had one too and I have seen one on the T90MS. M1 had something similar to.
>>29787860
>Make front hatch for easy access
>Remove all armor from the section of the vehicle most likely to be hit.
>>29798057
>Just as a sabot passing through will not puree the insides of a vehicle there is more interaction than clean holes in vehicle walls.
Go ahead, name those interactions that I haven't innumerated in my posts. I'll wait.
>And a T-14's turret is too small for the amount of equipment inside to allow a clean pass through.
From the front the gun and the gun elevation mechanism plus the AL attachment to the breech are all contained in the mantle projection.
>>29798090
>Spall liners do little when the liner itself is penetrated.
clean penetrations (in one side and out the other) means the penetrator didn't encounter much resistance and was relatively intact when it fully came out. This means the hole stays as close to the diameter of the penetrator whilst shoving not that much armor material as a consequence - meaning that when it eventually breaks into the interior the mouth of the hole stays narrow as well and doesn't burst shoving spall all around- as much as a round that goes through substantial armor that is(which looks like the exit hole when a 5.56 goes through a ballistic gel). What the spall liner does in this case is prevent what little material that bursts out at the forming 'mouth' of the exit hole from going into the compartment, and of course only the fragments that the penetrator itself is pushing directly in its travel make it out but since the penetrator is going to damage anything in the line of travel anyways it doesn't matter.
>>29798121
>You won't put a Spall liner inside an unmanned turret...
never said anything about putting spall liners in unmanned turrets. Still put one just to annoy the britbongs with their hesh tho.
>>29798138
>You will find NEA referenced in any document that talks about the Abrams ECP. Here is one from 2013.
>ctrl+f: next evolutionary armor
0 results.
>>29798210
>The situational awareness the TC has while turned out is pretty much unparalleled.
a drone giving out god's eye view is even better. having your head out the hatch is just inviting sniper fire in urban environments(where a tc head out the hatch actually makes sense since LOS aren't miles out.)
>>29790818
I don't think you understand how real life works.
What's the best armored vehicle for high-altitude mountain warfare?
>>29798293
>the ECP1 program will make it more formidable by including a new armor package for increased protection
At least try.
>>29798244
>Go ahead, name those interactions that I haven't innumerated in my posts. I'll wait.
Judging by the rest of your post you seem to think no force is transferred by a heavy, hard object pushing its way through the walls of a vehicle.
>From the front the gun and the gun elevation mechanism plus the AL attachment to the breech are all contained in the mantle projection.
Except we know the mechanisms of the turret are not small enough to fit entirely behind the mantlet, otherwise the turret would not need to be wider than the mantlet as it is.
>>29798373
Thats a pretty clear answer. None. You hold the valleys. There is no tank that could drive on real mountains.
>>29798485
perhaps we need to start developing vehicles that can traverse those environments then that don't adhere to the treads + casemate/turret parameters of a tank
>>29798502
We already have them. Light infantry and wheeled vehicles.
>>29798461
>Judging by the rest of your post you seem to think no force is transferred by a heavy, hard object pushing its way through the walls of a vehicle.
oh you mean the same forces that are weaker than the ones the turret is subjected to every time it fires... right
>>29798461
>Except we know the mechanisms of the turret are not small enough to fit entirely behind the mantlet, otherwise the turret would not need to be wider than the mantlet as it is.
they have to armor the sides so no it has to be wider than the mantlet at some point. Also where have you seen the gun mechanisms?
>>29798416
>different acronyms
>in pentagonese, where acronyms are sacrosanct
is this a thing now?
>>29798502
No Patrick Mechs are not a good idea
>>29798508
>>29798539
>wheeled vehicles
>traversing Mountains
Uh....
I was thinking some sort of low-slung spider crawlers
>>29798555
Legs carrying a lot of weight on loose rocks at steep inclines. Yeah I can definetly see no problems with that.
>>29798555
What is a helicopter?
