Thoughts on the Eurocopter Tiger, /k/? Is it just an Apache knockoff or something altogether different.
>>29062632
eurocopter is smaller and lighter....
more of a support helicopter than a pure battle machine like the apache
It survived a Goldeneye nuke.
>>29062632
-less payload than an Apache(6tons vs 10tons)
-smaller gun than the Apache(20mm vs 30mm); drastically smaller magazine(450 vs 1200)
-less weapon types than an apache
-less armor than an Apache(not that the Apache is really armored, go figure)
-less flight ceiling than an Apache(important, means it struggles in many terrains; 4km vs 6.5km)
-more expensive than the Apache(fucking somehow; 30-35mil euros vs 20-35mil burgerdollars)
+more range than Apache(800km vs 500km)
+slightly more modern sensors
honestly, the Tiger is pretty shit, like the Eurofighter, it's an utterly inferior scam program. If you want an Apache alternative, you got three real choices: the T-129 Mangusta if you actually just want a light scout, a Ka-50 if you want a high performance beast with limited avionics and sensors, or a Rooivalk if you want a good all-around attack helicopter.
>>29063488
>smaller gun than the Apache(20mm vs 30mm)
nein mah niqqa. French and aussie tigers have a 30mm Giat. I think it's ther germans that went without a gun at all.
>>29063488
eurocopter is so expensive because of it's stealth aspects (lowering visual, radar, infra-red and acoustic signatures) and is fitted with a lot of passive sensors instead of active sensors (radar) like the apache
it's build with 80% carbon fibre-reinforced polymer and kevlar, the fuselage is armoured and was developed to withstand small arms fire and 23 mm (0.91 in) cannon rounds
eurocopters can carry 30mm guns, these 20mm are gun pods (under the wing)
eurocopter can load everything an apache can load + their euro missiles/weapons
sadly, there is as good as no information about their Osiris sight/sensor out there but it claimed to be damn good
> is pretty shit, like the Eurofighter,
you know nothing about the eurofighter
Not the same weight category at all. The Tiger is closer to the Cobra and Mangusta than it is to a heavy helo like the Apache.
>>29063618
Rheinmetall is currently equipping the german tigers with recoilless 30mm gun. A pretty interesting concept.
>>29066313
oh shit i didn't hear this.
finally they learned the lesson.
>>29063774
>it's build with 80% carbon fibre-reinforced polymer and kevlar, the fuselage is armoured and was developed to withstand small arms fire and 23 mm (0.91 in) cannon rounds
Haha, sure. There's only one helicopter that csn actually tank small arms fire snd that's the Havoc, let alone a fucking cannon.
>>29062632
It looks like a KA-52, a Kiowa and an Apache all put together.
What could go wrong?
>>29066510
>Haha, sure. There's only one helicopter that csn actually tank small arms fire snd that's the Havoc, let alone a fucking cannon.
GTFO Vatnik.
>>29063488
>-less armor than an Apache(not that the Apache is really armored, go figure)
The crew cell is armored against 23mm in the Tiger and only 12.7 in the Apache.
Source: http://pig.sagepub.com/content/216/2/77
Furthermore, the Tiger has a much smaller IR and especially radar signature.
>-less weapon types than an apache
Wrong again, the Tiger cannot fire Sidewinder like the Ah-64D but can fire Mistrals, PARS3, HOT3 and Spike missiles, which the Apache cannot. Stingers, Hellfire II and unguided missiles can be mounted on both.
>-smaller gun than the Apache(20mm vs 30mm); drastically smaller magazine(450 vs 1200)
You've been corrected here already, the german version doesn't come with a gun because it's role is AT support mostly. The big edge of the Apache here is the large amount of ammunition for the gun though.
>-less flight ceiling than an Apache(important, means it struggles in many terrains; 4km vs 6.5km)
Official numbers, yes you're right - on the other hand, the power output of both engines isn't that different and with the smaller weight of the Tiger, I'm not sure that it couldn't work in the same height as the Apache.
It worked fine for the French in Afghanistan, so it's not a real issue, certainly not in Europe, where the Tigers are supposed to operate.
>more expensive than the Apache(fucking somehow; 30-35mil euros vs 20-35mil burgerdollars)
That's because basically 1/3 is build in Germany, another third in France and another on in Spain. It's a retarded system.
>like the Eurofighter, it's an utterly inferior scam program.
lol.
>>29066620
>Nobody has posted the best attackheli yet.
Imo the Apache is pretty shit compared to both the AH-1Z and the Tiger
>>29062632
https://youtu.be/mX6T7_Mj0BI?t=100
From France with love
>>29062632
Good but overpriced. If they manage to fix the high price then it might actually be a worthwhile modern gunship.
>>29066646
MURHEEN STRONKG
Seriously though, AH-1Z a shit
>>29066620
The Eurocopter has a smaller disc area, which accounts for its lower flight ceiling.
>>29066620
>The crew cell is armored against 23mm in the Tiger and only 12.7 in the Apache.
On paper, in practical experience the Apache has had 7.62 penetrate the cockpit, and the Apache has a titanium bath tub. The Tiger doesn't even have that, how the fuck can it provide more protection?
>It worked fine for the French in Afghanistan, so it's not a real issue, certainly not in Europe, where the Tigers are supposed to operate.
They were in Mali
>>29066716
>>29066653
YOu didn't even read the thread you fucking mongrel
>>29066716
Frogs deployed Tiger in afghanistann and they worked just fine despite being the less ambitious HAP version, the more recent HAD version has 23% more engine power.
>>29066683
This. Like numerous modern western europe equipment of the late 90/2000s era, they developped a "breakthrough" high-tech product demanding a whole lot of R&D while dealing with strongly deflating unit orders which led to skyrocketing prices.
Very solid helo with very good sensor and ECM suite and small signature. Problem is, i'm not sure it is worth a damn in modern contested environment, and if that advantage is moot there are plenty of much less pricey solutions out there.
>>29062632
I've always thought it to be more similar to an AH-1 Cobra than the AH-64 Apache.
>>29066693
Could you explain ?
>>29063488
New build apaches are above $40 mil
>>29066313
>>29066449
The RMK 30 will not be used on the german version of the Tiger. The doctrine wasn't changed.
I love when internet people are comparing stats based on random numbers from wikipedia.
>>29067725
Do you have a better source?
>>29067956
For what?
>>29067968
Stats of helicopters
>>29067704
source?
>>29067979
There aren't any stats available to make any meaningful comparisons.
Outside of the very most basic stats countries and companies handle it in different ways. Climb of rate is relative and graphes would be more useful for example.
But you would only get such information for comparisons if you are somehow involved in trials and competitions.
>>29066700
Ah, thx for pointing that out.
>>29063488
>honestly, the Tiger is pretty shit, like the Eurofighter
You were doing so well up until this point.
Other than forgetting that the Tiger's range isn't that much higher than the Apache's, as the "muh 800km" claims are barely loaded ones with extra tanks, compared to combat loaded Apache E and Westlands. THe Tiger in most cases doesn't have a top mast radar either, it's mounted much lower on the cockpit, exposing more of the helo.
Also, the Tiger's gun is 30mm, not 20mm.
>>29063774
>eurocopter can load everything an apache can load
Except it factually cannot. It can't load CRV7 rockets (both vastly superior to the ancient SNEB) it doesn't have the latest versions of Hellfire and most crucially, it can't mount ATGMs on the outer pylons, significantly reducing its capability. Effectively halving its guided strike ability in one swoop.
Bear in mind that Spike, HOT and PARS are all noticably inferior to the latest Hellfire versions that have millimeter guidance anyway. If you don't know why that's a huge jump that puts the Apache on another level, then you haven't been paying attention.
>>29068574
>Bear in mind that Spike, HOT and PARS are all noticably inferior to the latest Hellfire versions that have millimeter guidance anyway. If you don't know why that's a huge jump that puts the Apache on another level, then you haven't been paying attention.
lel
>>29066716
>Apache has a titanium bath tub.
No it hasn't you mongrel.
>They were in Mali
They've been stationed in Afghanistan as well, you mongrel.
>>29068574
Tigers can be equipped with Hydra 70s, which are basically the same as the CRV7.
>THe Tiger in most cases doesn't have a top mast radar either
Depends on the version, Germans field them on almost all.
>Bear in mind that Spike, HOT and PARS are all noticably inferior to the latest Hellfire versions that have millimeter guidance anyway
The Hellfire II works just fine, there isn't any reason it's "vastly more superior" in the current environment.
>>29068653
It's also not even vastly more superior in the first place.
It takes 30s for the fire control system to initiate an attack. Osiris and PARS only takes 8s.
>>29066653
Merci l'ami
>>29066693
AH-1z a fucking bargain compared to other current generation attack helis, in both procurement and operation, and also it can operate from ships without corroding to death.
>>29062632
Australia considers the Tiger an Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter ("ARH Tiger") rather than an attack helicopter like the Apache due to it being less heavily armed and a bit better at recon (targeting / imaging systems are above the cockpit, body is made out of composites designed to slightly reduce radar and IR signature, longer range, etc).
>>29069334
And also onsider it not good enough, as the recent Australian Defence White Paper made it clear they're replacing the damn thing as soon as is possible.
Good riddance too. Fuck Eurocopter, fuck their overpriced light recon chopper and fuck their heel dragging on every goddamn spare part.
Maybe this time we'll get a real gunship. The mention of unmanned stuff in tandem with it makes me think it might be the AH-64E, given it can work with UAVs.
>>29069401
>Shitty locally built electronic component
>Shitty maintenance
>Shitty doctrine
>"Eurocopter is shit!"
Get the fuck out Aussie.
>>29068969
www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/11pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf
AH-1Zs are ~$31m/unit
Meanwhile AW Apaches are about ~$48m/unit so thats all navalized, even better performance than standard AH-64Es, which are ~$35.5m/unit
So no, not really a bargain at all. Especially when you consider the capability gap between them.
ITT: shitty bait
>>29069799
When the problem is that we can't even DO maintenance because Eurocopter refuses to ship things on fucking time, then yes, I'll say they are shit. Every single thing to do with that aircraft has been late, overpriced and underperformed. Any time you need something on order from the manufacturer? Well good fucking luck, maybe they'll get to you in a year for their annual trade reviews they love so much. And it'll likely come with another notice of delay because they can't manufacture the things on time worth shit.
Compare to the American helos, where if we order something it more often than not turns up that month.
We wanted a gunship and to this day it still isn't a proper one. The amount of money we had to pay to get Hellfires on the thing early compared to other nations who seemed happy to wait until 2014 was obscene. Apache's have had that for decades and have done the work for longer and better, both the grunts and the top end guys have seen it, looks like it's finally filtered through to replace the fucking thing.
Sorry if the reality that a shitty helo is shitty hurts your patriotism, but there won't be a sad member of the Australian forces to see those things gone.
>>29071578
as a bong this is why the fact we went for home-built and heavily modified AH-64Ds.
Eurofighter is excellent (or at least ours are, seeing as we seem to be the only country interested in maintaining them) but expensive, and the project was a clusterfuck due to collaborating with all the Euro countries.
Glad we didn't make the same mistake with our helicopters too.
>>29071690
>as a bong this is why the fact we went for home-built and heavily modified AH-64Ds.
Yeah, nah - the AW Apaches are still heavily reliant on US production, which is why they're completely fucked now that they dropped support for the legacy Apache Longbow and every other customer is up to AH-64E Apache Guardian standard.
All our Apaches are now being rebuilt as AH-64Es by Boeing, with American engines and shit.
>>29066646
Why is this shooped?
>>29073764
Still better than the Tiger.
>>29066646
Sooperior Viper is Sooperior.
Its gun can't hold a candle to the 'pache, but it's got great sensors and maneuverability.
Thoughts on this monstrosity?
>>29073970
It's not, 100% CGI.
