MC2002
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You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
You are currently reading a thread in /k/ - Weapons
So I've seen the Millennial Challenge 2002 pop up a bit and I really don't know that much about it beyond the US Navy supposedly got rekt by speedboats with missiles and a Marine General was responsible for it. Could /k/ help me out a bit?
TL;DR
>exercise to test communications systems and shit for the Navy
>Marine general is like "fuck that, I bet I can win this"
>bike messengers now travel at the speed of light
>speedboats can now carry missiles that weigh more than the boats
>brass eventually gets tired of his shit
>he throws a bitch fit and resigns
>>30662095
One other thing is how heavily involved computers were in MC02
The entire exercise ran on software that can be compared to CMANO, but the combat code was fairly rudimentary because the exercise was supposed to be a test of C3. Thus the program allowed the human operators to essentially use console commands to move the combatants.
Riper basically bullied the operators on his team to input absurd commands like his light-speed bike couriers and weather independent light signals.
>>30662129
That's a gross simplification of what happened.
What he proved was that Naval Carrier doctrine breaks down when smaller crafts and vessels can swarm... Which is what Iran proceeded to do in the Persian Gulf.
>>30662129
Train the way you fight. Cheat.
>>30662235
>What he proved was that Naval Carrier doctrine breaks down when smaller crafts and vessels can swarm
Except Naval Carrier doctrine wasn't even present.
>>30662235
Yeah, but wasn't the simulated CSG only a few miles off the coast and clustered together? Exactly the opposite of their formation if they were actually in an operation?
>>30662235
Considering that the navy wasnt able to use their defensive systems, how can you say that flaws were found?
How often do they even go these kind of exercises?
Do they still do specific target wargames like protecting the Panama Canal or damns?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_problem
>>30662095
/k/ is full of retards who honestly believe wars are won on technology alone. They're national defense gear queers of the worst kind.
Van Riper won against Rumsfeld's technokiddies using strategy and tactics. The gear queers got mad and kept changing the rules so that they could win until Van Riper told them that if they just wanted consensual validation instead of evaluation they could fuck off and find some bobblehead to do it.
>>30662235
It didn't simulate Iran. Watch the PBS documentary
>>30662433
t. William Lind
>>30662433
Pierre Sprey pls go
>>30662262
I mean, if your strategy to win involves teleporting 100 fishing boats that can somehow carry 5 ton missiles and their launch system to within 20 miles of an enemy formation, it's probably not a good strategy to rely on in real life.
Since teleportation doesn't exist at the moment.
>>30662487
Don't you know that TRUE CHRISTIAN WHITE MEN only need mission type orders to win their battles?
>>30662487
>>30662535
*tips M1916 stahlhelm*
>>30662577
I mean, the Germans were the masters of the arts of war, according to incredibly brilliant military strategist William Lind, who apparently forgot that they lost most of their wars.
>>30662617
He advised Gary Hart, you know
>>30662772
Why bother advising when you can just issue mission type orders?
But in seriousness, the fact that someone as phenomenally stupid as Lind advised a presidential candidate, and not a joke one at that, is pretty damn terrifying.
>>30662129
>>bike messengers now travel at the speed of light
No, Red used motorcycle messengers, and light signals. You know they have referees for these things right? You can't just make up capabilities for your forces.
>>30663518
> No, Red used motorcycle messengers, and light signals. You know they have referees for these things right? You can't just make up capabilities for your forces.
VR did exactly that, he told the refs to shut the fuck up when they objected that bike messengers were not instantaneous and threatened to resign/go public if he didn't have his way.
So the refs instructed the people working on the simulation to model VR's lightspeed bike messengers.
>>30662235
No, what he proved was that an angry old man who was pissed off that he was passed over for being Commandant of the Marine Corps would have no qualms with wasting millions of dollars and international forces time and money just to get back at people he thought had wronged him.
Nothing about MC02 had anything to do with testing defensive systems or tactics. it was about C4I between ship and shore units with a multinational force. The mission software for the event wasn't even modeled to take into account defensive systems due to a lack of time and money (it was rightfully deemed unnecessary considering the purpose of the war game). This combined with Blue deploying in a way that it would not in real life due to poor choice of location for the event and not wanting to interfere with civilian shipping had Blue in a disadvantage from the start, which wouldn't have been an issue if Van Riper had stuck to his role instead of trying to 'prove' something that everyone already knew.
There's so much blatant misinformation about this exercise all because 'military reformers' keep trying to use it to prove their point and it gets picked up again and regurgitated by yellow journalists every few years.
>>30662617
Only because the Prussian staff was diluted by Bavarian 3rd gen ideas
>>30663854
You have better documentation than a /k/ screencap, right?
>>30665082
Hello newfriend, care to address what the anon said?
>>30665121
It's plausible but unsubstantiated assertions
lrn 2 logic and don't get offended when people ask for citations
>>30665144
>unsubstantiated
Hello newfriend.
http://archive.defense.gov/Transcripts/Transcript.aspx?TranscriptID=3653
>>30662204
So basically
Van Riper was an asshole, but he might have had a point.
>>30662525
I mean, if your strategy involves total information omniscience and coms that work flawlessly and never break for any reason whatsoever and perfectly predicable enemies who never surprise you, it's probably not a good strategy to rely on in real life.
Since none of that shit exists at the moment.
>>30663854
So what you're saying is that MC proved that our military is too incompetent to design a functional training simulation much less fight a real war.
Good to know
>>30662204
"Always win. Always cheat"
-Clint Smith
>>30667267
You saying the US military didn't want to waste time and money on something that had no relation to the purpose of the exercise?
Good to know.
>>30667267
It wasn't supposed to be as full-featured as CMANO. That wasn't the objective in the first place.
The main point was to test the process of getting intel, turning it into ops orders, sending those orders to real troops, and having those real troops carry them out.
Basically, it was to learn how close to reality our simulations were in the first place, by injecting a huge amount of real life into a simulation... and to give troops up and down the chain of command training that they wouldn't normally have, in the form of orders and reports physically making their way up and down that same chain.
It wasn't really meant to be a CMANO what-if, although the press did try to make it sound that way given that the target country was so heavily modeled and an end to the 1991 cease-fire with Iraq was looking increasingly likely.
