Let's talk armor.
How bad is the spalling on ar500 or other steel plates?
I know they got that fancy coating that is supposed to catch all the fragments, but I am looking for some 6x6 side plates and the Mayflower carrier likes thinner side plates (unless I spend more money on retention straps). But unlike my main front and back ceramic plates, the thought of possible fragments bouncing into my armpit and the treasure trove of vessels and shit up in the pits, should I just get some fat ceramic side plates?
https://www.survival-bug-out.com/pages/why-ar-500-body-armor-isn-t-a-good-deal
tl;dr Don't buy AR-500, it a shit
>>30573563
>How bad is the spalling on ar500 or other steel plates?
Spalling as in back deformation or spalling as in bullet splatter?
Back deformation is irrelevant and so is bullet splatter
http://www.sierra12.com/s12-home/spall-aka-the-big-splash
Airsoft BBs can get more penetration than what the metal did and the 3 inch penetration came from fragments of the magazine which nothing would save you from
>>30573595
jesus christ the amount of fudd lore in that article is astounding
>>30575504
Want to tell me what? I'm not going to read that shit formatting.
>>30575562
>The truth of the matter is line-X is added to the plates because they are metal and guess what? Metal will corrode and or rust, which in turn can and will weaken it over time. The coating is cosmetic for the most part and also to prevent corrosion, thats it.
No, it's to catch spall you fucking idiot
>but muh fragments!
Shoot it bare and see what the difference is faggot
>4. Shooting the AR500 plate with large caliber weapons. As seen in the video, there is a ballistic gel torso used during the different shots and they reference it to show that there was no penetration. Again, this is VERY misleading to the unaware. Soft armor backers are worn not only to help with mitigating penetration but also in lessening the BLUNT FORCE TRAUMA that would be inflicted on a wearer. So while these "tests" show no penetration of the plate, they fail to capture or quantify how much of the kinetic force is transferred from that metal plate directly into the wearers torso when it's struck. There might not have been a penetration of the armor itself, but the sheer impact of the force can very well be fatal to the wearer or cause serious injury to the point that medical treatment is needed. Wearing AR500 plates without a soft armor backer is not recommended and potentially dangerous to your health/life if you are shot in the plate.
>muh ENERGY TRANSFER
Literal disingenuous faggotry
>>30575607
thanks
I have a child size vest that I got from a friend whose dad was LAPD back when we were 7
I don't talk to that friend anymore but I am glad I still have the vest
>>30575658
smaller vests actually fit better
most vests sit too low and dont cover the upper chest area or upper back
Bumping
>>30575607
>No, it's to catch spall you fucking idiot
doesn't mean it's actually effective at that
>>30575675
yeah I mean I am a smaller framed fellow anyways ~150lbs 5'6" so it still fits nicely velcro around the sides but unprotected from stabbings etc.
>>30575687
the carrier and line-x have been proven in multiple videos to be effective at it
And like was posted here>>30575478
spall isn't even relevant
>>30575706
even my oversized kevlar vest doens't sit low enough for low gut
And kevlar won't stop knives
>>30573563
At the point spalling becomes an issue with steel plates, the ceramic plates would have already failed completely (around 4-6 shots)
I'll take armor that spalls over armor that shatters completely any day for SHTF long-term use. For duty (police) I'm looking into getting ceramic for my oh shit kit. I get an $800 allowance every 5 years for armor so I can justify replacing it. If in the unlikely event I'm actually hit and it stops so much as a .22 it's done it's job and I'll replace it. The saved weight and level 4 performance are worth it in that case. In the case of civilian use and SHTF, just get steel. They outperform when it comes to volume of shots and don't expire. I don't see why you'd deal with the negative points of ceramic plates (cost being one) when you really don't have need of the slightly more positive points.
>>30575687
It is, quite effective when it's also DING DING DING contained under a 500+ Denier Cordura milspec carrier. SPALLING IS A MEME
If you want cheap plates for SHTF and aren't someone in a job where you get shot at on the daily, metal is fine. Ceramics CAN get damaged with rough storage, and the military or LEO dept has a bigger budget than you for replacements
>>30575780
>cordura will protect me from frag
Yeah fucking right. There's a reason the newer revisions of the Velsys ULV carrier have fucking kevlar around the edges.
>>30575832
Cordura with the anti spall line will protect you, yes. Ad if you're getting direct rifle hits to the chest frag will be the least of your concerns anyway
go justify spending $400 on ceramics that sit in your closet somewhere else, spall-lined steel armor is just fine for most people
>>30575857
>spall-lined steel armor is just fine for most people
Just like carrying a fucking Jennings or not even carrying a gun will be fine for most people, doesn't mean you want to do it.
>>30575876
oh just fuck off, you clearly have no real arguments anymore and are just shitposting now
>>30575894
>I want to wear plates that have literally been recalled for failing to stop M80 ball
ok m8, have fun. You might as well put a fucking phonebook in your plate carrier
>>30575909
I'll put a phonebook up your ass m8
>>30575894
Not him but you don't seem any better, your entire response to the posted article is "no it's all lies and fuddlore" as if fudds have any take on armor beyond "why yuh need dat to hunt durr?"
>>30575919
>oh just fuck off, you clearly have no real arguments anymore and are just shitposting now
quality posting m8, right back at ya
also as for
> if you're getting direct rifle hits to the chest frag will be the least of your concerns anyway
No it won't be. Dudes who have done the work for real and taken actual rounds to flesh say it felt like they were getting pelted with sims/UTM. The amount of pain you feel while that level of adrenaline is in your system is pretty tolerable if you've done scenario work and felt the pain before. Meanwhile if I'm literally bleeding from my carotid and brachials there's no amount of pain tolerance and adrenaline that will replace lost blood.
>>30575857
Where did this "ceramic is expensive meme" come about, I bought four brand new multicurve plates (group buy with a buddy) for about 120 dollars each.
>>30575960
>taking actual rounds to flesh is better that the off chance that the combination of gear, spall liner, and cordura might not stop a small piece of low velocity copper jacket
Just stop
>>30575740
>At the point spalling becomes an issue with steel plates, the ceramic plates would have already failed completely (around 4-6 shots)
That's funny because good ceramic can handle 15+ shots in tests even if they don't warranty/rate it as such, just like Kevlar has to be replaced every 5 years even though it's perfectly good well beyond that.
>>30575995
>this level of poor reading comprehension
Did you even graduate high school? I'm not saying to not wear plates because spall. I'm saying don't buy cheap shit with piss poor QC and piss poor manufacturer support, AKA AR500 Armor. Get some fucking ceramics and suddenly none of this is even an issue anymore. Meanwhile to save less than $200 you're going to end up with a set of plates that weighs more, is a spall risk, and maybe doesn't even stop the threats it's advertised to stop.
>>30575832
read>>30575478
even on bare steel it doesn't matter
>>30576025
Nah, I'm not a LEO or military. You enjoy your expensive closet armor
>>30575909
>M80 ball
Except that's not what penetrated them you fucking idiot
>>30575928
he's not me, faggot
>>30575960
>literally bleeding from my carotid and brachials
see>>30575478
>>30576025
>piss poor QC
You have no idea what that word means
>>30576043
And here we fucking go again. Literally quoted from the article cited: "I personally feel that if I choose to wear a ballistic steel plate it must have some type of proven spall mitigation built into the plate. I also personally feel that even if I did have on a ballistic steel plate with a spall guard or spall liner/ or ceramic plate, the risk of catching high velocity projectile fragments caused by the round first impacting my equipment on the outside of the plate carrier- is a very real risk."
Spall matters. Hell, some of the concealable carriers for steel plates (like the ULV I mentioned earlier) had to go through design revisions because the shoulder straps would literally get cut apart by spall. You'd take a round or two, and then the carrier would fucking fall off your body, potentially taking your mag pouches and shit with it.
>>30576069
http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2016/AR500-Armor-Recalls-Level-III-Body-Armor/
Eat a bag of dicks.
Also using ballistic gel as an analogue for human flesh is a little sketchy on the low end of penetration because skin is harder to penetrate for wider projectiles. So against a real person, sharps like frag have an advantage in penetrating skin, while this is not really represented in gel testing. This is a complete non issue for bullets which have enough energy that breaking skin is a nonfactor, but when it comes to low energy stuff like little bits of frag, it is important.
>>30576093
>the risk of catching high velocity projectile fragments caused by the round first impacting my equipment on the outside of the plate carrier
Uncontrollable
>I personally feel
disregarded
>http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2016/AR500-Armor-Recalls-Level-III-Body-Armor/
Doesn't say what was wrong with it
And any company can have a recall
EoTech had recalls
>>30576136
as said here>>30575478
Airsoft won't penetrate skin but will penetrate ballistics gel
Even more difference in muscle
>>30575978
I will feeling it was an ncsi episode when a bunch of usmc plates were faulty and sold at a local gun show
>>30575978
because when you search regularly on google the plates are usually $200 plus
there's a couple of places that are cheaper, but even I forget the names now
>>30576159
"The body armor can fail to meet performance requirements for Level III body armor, allowing a bullet to penetrate, and pose a risk of gunshot injury or death."
Sounds crystal clear to me. And Eotech's recalls sound like a good fucking reason to shop Aimpoint unless you get Eokeks for free from SOCOM monies and have a vis laser backup on your rifle.
>>30576170
My point being that even if the frag only penetrates an inch in gel, compared to airsoft's 3 inches, frag is more likely to make it past the skin to your arteries, while airsoft will bounce off or leave welts or what the fuck ever.
>>30576093
I have targetman spartan omega spall-lined armor and I can say it's a lot better coated than regular ar500
It's a great alternative to regular ar500 and MUCH cheaper and more durable than ceramics
>>30576226
How do you define better coated? Also how do you know it's more durable than ceramics?
>>30576219
>Sounds crystal clear to me.
>make the claim it won't stop 308
>w-well it says this!
I asked you to back up your claim, m8, not move the fucking goalposts
>>30576219
>My point being that even if the frag only penetrates an inch in gel, compared to airsoft's 3 inches,
Except this goes to show that the penetration in gel has no bearing on penetration of tissue, especially when airsoft has a much larger surface area, so deeper penetration makes even less sense
>>30576252
Hint: the NIJ III requirement says the armor has to stop 6 rounds of M80 ball. Do you even know anything about armor or do you just google this shit as you type replies?
Daily reminder that certain 7.62x51, 5.56 and even custom shotgun loads will go right through ar500 armor and kill the fuck out of you
>>30576248
Better coated than AR500 due to a different outer coating (rhino liner)
More durable than ceramics because I can smack it against ceramicfags' thick skulls and it won't develop microfractures or have to be x-rayed yearly
>>30576275
The reason it was recalled, autist, was because it didn't stop XM193
Go be a fucking retard in some other corner like /arg/ for instance where they're very accepting of your idiocy
>>30576289
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRPPDCiPJug
What now ceramicfags? All on the SAME PLATE too
>>30576293
Are you retarded? NIJ level III standards NEVER stipulate that the plate has to stop M193. Even the AR500 Armor page states that the recalled plates didn't meet NIJ III rating, not any bullshit about M193.
>>30576322
>youtube armor tests
>>30576276
>bringing up ammo that's nearly impossible to get like XM855A1 or M80A1
Wow amazing
>>30576329
>Are you retarded? NIJ level III standards NEVER stipulate that the plate has to stop M193.
It has to stop all lower threats which includes 5.56 which is what penetrated it
Go
Be
Stupid
Elsewhere
>>30576343
an ammo site was selling it in bulk a few weeks ago and dont forget that m193 will go right through lots of the non 3+ stuff
>>30576329
What's wrong with his test? He's shot one plate many, many times with a variety of calibers and it performed well
Don't tell me you're just butthurt and won't admit you're wrong!
Here's a test of coated steel plates to see if they prevent spalling or not with 7.62 and 5.56
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt5hJORcbkQ
>all these autists arguing over armor that only covers your chest
You dumbasses will likely get shot in the head or pelvic girdle fucking anyways
Doesn't fucking matter if you're wearing armor or not
>>30576369
>an ammo site was selling it in bulk a few weeks ago
Which is so unlikely to ever face it's irrelevant to think about
>dont forget that m193 will go right through lots of the non 3+ stuff
Out of 20 inch barrels at sub 30 yards
I've only ever so much as seen 3 20 inch ARs in real life and anyone planning to shoot me is likely not going to own a 20 inch AR
>>30576383
>not IWI armor
The Jews aren't gonna be too happy about this
>fits the Tavor in
There it is
>>30576397
>I dont want my plate to be able to stop new rounds the military is deploying
>my plate doesnt need to stop the many deer rifle rounds that ar500 is too shitty to stop
meanwhile level 4 ceramics are over there stopping multiple .338 lm hits
>>30576383
wow no fragmentation
Fagtron here is wrong>>30575687
>>30576361
>blatant lies
You're fucking retarded.
The lower threats as defined by NIJ mean the threats stopped by I, IIa, II, IIIa, etc. None of those are rated to stop 5.56mm either. Fuck off, you're a kid who googled armor and bought into the youtube shilling. Lower threats for NIJ III include .22LR, .380, 9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Mag, .357 SIG, and .44 Mag. Guess what's not on the list? 5.56mm.
>>30576382
For one, the actual test protocols are supposed to have the plate strapped down tight to the clay backer, so it can't get rocked back and forth from the rounds and dissipate energy that way. Also it's literally a sample size of one. As you can see there are also a shit ton of similar vids of AR500 armor, except whoops they had a recall because a bad batch of steel fucked over 2 entire months production of plates. Steel armor effectiveness is highly dependent on the qualities of the steel used, so if the supplier plays fast and loose you can easily get too soft plates (won't stop rounds) or too hard plates (breaks into literal pieces).
>>30576430
>>my plate doesnt need to stop the many deer rifle rounds
>only applies to california legal bullets
Go away
>>30576430
You planning on going toe to toe with the military or police?
>>30576025
>>30576093
>>30576219
>>30576275
>>30576276
>>30576293
>>30576329
>>30576369
>>30576430
>>30576444
All you fucking retards think that xm193 penetrates AR500
And you'd be right, except that what actually penetrates doesn't have enough force to kill you
If anyone has the video some /k/unt made I'd appreciate it
The bullet and little chunk of steel that it popped out didn't even penetrate the cardboard box
Fuck you people are stupid beyond belief
>>30576444
oh wow your logic has me stumped, I'm going out tomorrow to buy ceramic plates
holy shit I never knew I needed this befor but now I do, thank you SO MUCH for showing me the way of the sheep dog
Hoo rah, and semper fi my good fellow
>>30576451
I dont plan to go toe to toe with anyone, but I would rather my plate be able to stop whatever is thrown at me by whoever happens to be throwing it
>>30576477
Except that's not even true. Call up Gary Roberts and ask him about it. Oftentimes the M193 still has enough ass left to punch through a IIIA vest underneath a steel plate.
>>30576484
>I don't know anything but want to argue about it on the internet anyway
have fun m8, i hope you learned something about your limitations today
>>30576219
>And Eotech's recalls sound like a good fucking reason to shop Aimpoint unless you get Eokeks for free from SOCOM monies and have a vis laser backup on your rifle.
>that damage control
kek
>>30576497
>Except that's not even true.
Except it was proven via video evidence faggotron
>>30576515
why did you greentext your own quote
>>30576451
>>30576449
its also great knowing that just by ordering some m855a1 or m80a1 (was just in stock on americanreloading a few weeks ago) I dont have to worry about anyones ar500 armor stopping it in any sort of shtf scenario
>>30576485
Just admit you're a subversive cuck and be done with it
>>30576519
?
I don't own eokeks and I favor Aimpoint. I will probably never buy an eokek either at this point, given Aimpoint battery life and constant on as opposed to automatic shutoff.
>>30576543
>1 plate tested on youtube is exactly the same as every other plate the company ships out
What are quality control issues for $600, Alex?
>>30576558
you can't argue and you can't shitpost well
just kys m8
>>30576568
>that just by ordering some m855a1
Which you literally cannot do
>m80a1 (was just in stock on americanreloading a few weeks ago)
Something you can no longer do and the likelihood of me going up against anyone with it is zero
And beyond that, why are you going to be shooting at random people you fucking psychopath?
The average murderous faggot is using shitty storebought ammo and a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel
Period
hey what about the combination ceramic UHD polyethylene http://www.bulletproofme.com/RP-Level-3-PLUS-Ceramic.html
>>30576581
>I don't own eokeks and I favor Aimpoint. I will probably never buy an eokek either at this point, given Aimpoint battery life and constant on as opposed to automatic shutoff.
You made a claim, he called you out, so you said it didn't matter
pic related
>>30576575
just admit glorified varmit rounds go through your shitty plates while ceramic ones are stopping .338s
>>30576591
> literally cannot do
>was just in stock on americanreloading a few weeks ago
>it will NEVER go in stock anywhere ever again
>why are you going to be shooting at random people you fucking psychopath?
>bad guys never wear armor especially shitty cheap armor
>>30576581
>>1 plate tested on youtube is exactly the same as every other plate the company ships out
>What are quality control issues for $600, Alex?
Proofs?
>just kys m8
>nigger memes
Fuck off
>>30573563
steel plates are shit, do not use them
the anti spall coating DOES NOT WORK, on 1st hit the coating separates from the plate, and you get spall everywhere
subsequent shots again spew spall EVERYWHERE, this includes vital areas like your face, throat, and legs/cock
if you take a shot an angle, a chunk of the plate goes with the round, so you have even more metal flying at your body
just get ceramic plates, good ones arent expensive and can take multiple hits, a full setup (2x sides, front/back) is going to run you $280 for the sides, and $340 for the front/back, totalling $620, yeah its more than AR500 but its actually going to protect you
think about it like this, is your life worth the little you pay for AR500 plates? if you value your life buy good plates
>>30576581
>What are quality control issues for $600, Alex?
then if their QC is shit shouldnt you avoid them? like seriously are you retarded or a shill?
>>30576640
armor wear is selling front and back ceramics for $250 and it comes with a shitty slick carrier, I dont know why anyone would buy ar500 at this point
>>30576610
What claim? I'm lost as to what you're trying to say. My claim is that AR500 armor had a recall. And he called me out by saying Eokek also had a recall. And I said that I wouldn't buy an Eokek either. Where is this inconsistent?
>>30576623
>6 mm AR500 steel plate [pic related] was shot:
>-- 5 of 5 shots of Federal 55 gr XM193 FMJ fired at an ave velocity of 2992 fps from a 16" barrel penetrated the plate and underlying soft armor.
>-- 3 of 5 shots of Winchester 55 gr FMJ (USA223R1) fired at an ave velocity of 2904 fps from a 16" barrel penetrated the plate and underlying soft armor; 2 shots were stopped by the plate.
>-- 5 of 5 shots of Federal Tactical LE223T1 using the 55 gr TBBC JSP fired at an ave velocity of 2945 fps from a 20" barrel penetrated the plate and underlying soft armor.
>-- 5 of 5 shots of Corbon DPX using the Barnes 53 gr all copper JHP fired at an ave velocity of 3004 fps from a 20" barrel penetrated the plate and underlying soft armor.
>-- 5 of 5 shots of Corbon DPX using the Barnes 53 gr all copper JHP fired at an ave velocity of 2930 fps from a 16" barrel were stopped by the plate.
>-- 3 shots of Winchester 62 gr M855 FMJ fired at an ave velocity of 3054 fps from a 20" barrel were all stopped by the plate.
>-- 1 shot of a BH loaded Barnes 70 gr all copper X-bullet fired at a velocity of 2851 fps from a 20" barrel was stopped by the plate.
>-- 1 shot of a BH loaded Barnes 70 gr all copper X-bullet fired at a velocity of 2758 fps from a 16" barrel was stopped by the plate.
>Note that the Barnes all copper bullets deposit a distinct copper swipe when they hit the plate.
>In addition:
>-- 1 shot of a .308 Remington loaded Swift Scirocco 150 gr bonded PT fired at a velocity of 2645 fps from an 18" barrel was stopped by the plate.
Why is it so hard to believe that steel, a material with properties highly dependent on processing and heat treat, would have trouble with consistency?
>>30576591
Let's be real here,
>>30576620
Is one of those survivalist faggots who thinks surviving the HABBENING means shooting everyone he sees
Reality is, he'll probably off himself long before that happens because he has no base in reality
>>30576667
>>-- 5 of 5 shots of Federal 55 gr XM193 FMJ fired at an ave velocity of 2992 fps from a 16" barrel penetrated the plate and underlying soft armor.
Then it wasn't commonly available AR500 because that doesn't happen you disingenuous cocksucker
>>30576620
>>was just in stock on americanreloading a few weeks ago
M80A1 was, not 855A1, which I called you out on
Stop moving the goalposts
>>it will NEVER go in stock anywhere ever again
No it's unlikely to ever show up again because it was the extras from the test contract
>>bad guys never wear armor especially shitty cheap armor
>the real world is STALKER
>>30576688
you're exactly right
people think the happening is going to be STALKER and I'm sick and tired of it
>>30576477
you can get 3k fps from a 17" barrel if shooting .223 Wylde
hell, most 55 gr push around 2.7/8k fps from a 16"
>>30576700
Wow m8 it's almost like slight inconsistencies in heat treat result in batch to batch differents in plate performance. Just because you saw mrgunsandgear shoot a fucking plate and get stops doesn't mean the plate you buy will have the same performance, because if the supplier runs the heat treat slightly hotter or colder or the plate is processed in a manner that involves heat, that affects material properties. Again, your claim that this shit doesn't happen, as supported by fucking youtube videos, is not compelling in the slightest.
>>30575682
>mecha armor
>>30575607
>ENERGY TRANSFER
backface deformation is a very real concern.
The ceramic matrix crack to dissipate energy that would otherwise be transferred to the body. I don't see why you can't get around this idea.
>>30576688
is one of those cheap faggots who could have bought ceramic plates for $50 more but decided he would rather get plates that will get fucked by .22-250 and will be completely obsolete the second a big batch of a1 rounds goes up for sale somewhere
>>30576716
>my plates depend on a round not being available for sale
>bad guys irl never get the idea to armor themselves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
>>30576343
the rounds that the government may potentially be firing at your armor one day, anon?
>>30576758
he's a bootlicking cuck who bought and defends his AR500 armor purchase, what do you expect from his kind?
>>30576734
>if shooting .223 Wylde
>the chamber changes the muzzle velocity
kekekek
>>30576737
And yet ceramics can literally have the exact same problem when hardening them in a furnace
Your claims only have partial merit because there is precedent
>all this implying like ceramic won't ever fail due to a manufacturing error
>STOP LIKING WHAT I DONT LIKE IM BETTER THAN YOU
settle.thefuck.down
>>30575740
Why do you think ceramics shatter complete and fail completely? Do you have a material science engineering background? Oh wait, YOU DON'T. YOU'RE A STUPID COP. Stop making shit up, you dumb cunt. Modern ceramic matrices are 1) tightly packed 2) could be secured in resins (not sure about 2, since I don't fab armor)
>>30576751
>backface deformation is a very real concern.
no it's not
Even if you broke a bone, you're still in action, and you won't break bones because bones bend
Go be a walking meme in /arg/ and buy a 2 stage trigger
>>30576756
>is one of those cheap faggots who could have bought ceramic plates for $50 more
Link faggot
>and will be completely obsolete the second a big batch of a1 rounds goes up for sale somewhere
And when laser guns are for sale ceramics will be useless too, better buy a tank instead
>literally
>one
>shootout
>in
>history
I'm not going to shoot bank robbers, nor am I going to get in an extended gun fight with them
>>30576758
nigger if you're fighting the military, you're fucking dead because you're outnumbered and outgunned
If they can be shooting at you and you need to depend on your armor to save you, you already fucking lost the insurgency war
>>30576806
>won't ever fail due to a manufacturing error
look at this fag moving the goal post.
From an engineering perspective, ceramic plates are superior to steel in weight, penetration resistance, and trauma mitigation. If you can't fucking understand that, I suggest suicide via ballistic trauma immediately.
I hate every single one of you
These are kill zones and your armor won't save you regardless of type
>>30576864
>moving the goal post
no I'm only using the same argument you are while you shit up the place
>>30576864
>look at this fag moving the goal post.
>claim that manufacturing error ruins the use of AR500
>claims ceramics don't have the same
>gets called out
>OH GOD MOVING THE GOALPOSTS GOD
Why is /k/ the board of disingenuity?
Or are you just retarded
>>30576831
https://armour-wear.com/shop/all/carriers/tpg-armour-wear-package/
>when laser guns are for sale
>comparing laser guns that can shoot through ceramic plates to a round that has been in use for long period of time at this point and is in current use with the military
I bet you're one of the people like >>30576844
that think the people couldn't beat the military in some sort of revolution
>>30576804
>>30576884
>And yet ceramics can literally have the exact same problem when hardening them in a furnace
>thinking that ceramics are basically clay pots in a kiln
That's not how they're made. But go ahead and keep making shit up because it's obvious you don't know anything about armor testing or production.
>>30576831
BFD is a legit concern, there's a fucking reason it's part of NIJ testing.
>>30576844
Yeah, just lie back and think of England. Obviously there's no reason to fight for anything ever, just fucking lick the boot.
>>30576892
>>comparing laser guns that can shoot through ceramic plates to a round that has been in use for long period of time at this point and is in current use with the military
>is currently being tested for use by the military
FTFY
>that think the people couldn't beat the military in some sort of revolution
yes, in insurgency, not open warfare
>>30576871
This.
Also cover isn't always available.
>>30576831
>Even if you broke a bone, you're still in action, and you won't break bones because bones bend
you're fucking stupid. Please educate yourself.
http://www.ppss-group.com/blog/understanding-blunt-force-trauma-backface-signature/
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680107-overview
>The composition, or plasticity, of the tissues impacted also affects the resultant injuries. For example, a person who is kicked in the chest may have only minimal injuries to the elastic skin surface, whereas deeper, more solid tissues such as ribs and internal organs (notably, the spleen and liver) may experience fractures and lacerations.
Also, I have THREE 2 stage geisseles
>>30576896
>That's not how they're made.
except they literally are
>BFD is a legit concern, there's a fucking reason it's part of NIJ testing.
So is emission testing on car
Doesn't mean it fucking matters
>Yeah, just lie back and think of England. Obviously there's no reason to fight for anything ever, just fucking lick the boot.
>the type of armor you have will determine whether you win a war or not
We also had an army, not an insurgency, faggot
Stop being a memeing faggot
>>30576871
>poorfag detected
At 100yds and greater, people aim for center of mass m8. Most of the time, that means the upper torso.
While it is very likely that the bullet will hit either the abdomen or an extremity, that's not the point of the armor. Armor isn't made to protect every possible hit zone on your body. It's to protect your most vital organs (heart and lungs) from damage. You can survive a hit to the gut long enough to patch yourself up, most of the time. Unless they hit an artery, you can survive a hit to your limbs. The chance of getting hit in the head is very low.
But if you get hit in your lungs, you're fucked in a matter of seconds. If you get shot in the heart it's fuckin' lights out.
That's the point of armor, retard. Stop being stupid just because you're poor and jealous that the other kids have nicer toys than you.
>>30576928
>Also, I have THREE 2 stage geisseles
wow go figure you're such an intentionally retarded faggot
do soft level iiia for cummerbunds. it'll catch the handgun shit and it's hardly noticeable that its there and you can get them for $15 a side.
>>30576910
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/
>U.S. Army Issues New M855A1 Ammo to Troops in Afghanistan
this was from fucking 6 years ago
>yes, in insurgency, not open warfare
>implying the government wouldn't fracture at all in the event of a revolution
>implying certain sections of the active military/state guard units/reservists wouldn't potentially side with the rebels leading to open combat
>>30576928
both of those links refer to kevlar you deceptive faggot
All these steel peasants in denial. Ceramic isn't even that expensive, but they're so poor they need that extra $200 for microwave burritos.
There's a reason everyone who actually fights as part of their job uses ceramic and the reason is steel is shit.
>>30576884
I never mentioned fucking "manufacturing error", you worthless sack of shit. This thread was about the principles of material worthiness. Please fucking go and stay go.
>>30576933
>armor is made this way because I said so!
>not knowing about pressureless sintering and hot pressing
good job bud, keep proving you don't know shit.
>>30576941
>At 100yds and greater, people aim for center of mass m8
and at 100 yards and greater they hit all over the place
especially in fucking combat
>just because you're poor and jealous that the other kids have nicer toys than you.
Oh that's rich, now you're acting like YOU aren't the faggot telling other people what they should and shouldn't buy
>>30576962
>we will have line infantry combat and not guerilla warfare where cover and mobility will be by far the most important aspect of fighting
Can you please stop playing video games
>>30576973
>There's a reason everyone who actually fights as part of their job uses ceramic and the reason is steel is shit.
Because they don't pay for it, they can afford to replace it, and they want something light
If you're in SHTF warefare and your plate cracks, it's junk, done, game over
At least you have a chance after that with steel
and quit samefagging
>>30576871
Missing leg day?
>>30576991
>armor doesn't matter
uh huh
>>30577009
yup, you don't need those armor plates at all for guerrilla warfare, just tell all those green beanies to turn their plates back in.
>>30576974
>>30576667
whatever m8
>>30577009
>saying there's a possibility that the military could fracture and fight itself means I think that will lead to napoleonic tactics
>>30576963
>both of those links refer to kevlar
>first link talked only about the NIJ standard and backface deformation
>second link was from medscape about autopsies
Here is the first link again
http://www.ppss-group.com/blog/understanding-blunt-force-trauma-backface-signature/
Please tell me how the content of this is not relevant to plates? Are plates tested to a different set of NIJ standards?
Here is the second link again
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1680107-overview
Please tell me how you divined from this article that it was talking about kevlar armor. It's ok, I'll wait.
My suggestion to you is to go back to fucking grade school and learn how to fucking read.
>>30576988
>>armor isn't made this way because I said so!
>>30577038
>>armor doesn't matter
>intentionally misquoting
Go away, I'm not even going to bother arguing with you
>>30576991
I like how you ignored every point that I made. I specifically addressed why getting hit in other locations is not as severe or at least not as likely as getting hit in the center of mass.
I said people aim for the center of mass, I didn't say they always hit there.
I just entered this thread to call out your stupid comment. I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't buy armor, that's up to you. Some people think the lost mobility and added weight isn't worth the added protection, but you're a fucking glue-eating retard if you don't understand the point of plates. They are designed purely for protecting your most vital organs in the event that a VERY large surface area of your body is hit.
>>30577023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSK4U2Poo0k
>smashes plate into ground
>hits it with a sledge hammer
>it still easily stops rounds
>>30577044
please see image title and implement immediately.
>>30577055
>>first link talked only about the NIJ standard and backface deformation
If you even read the article it very specifically refers to kevlar which has infinitely more backface deformation than steel you autistic cunt
>>30577023
Plates are not that easy to crack and are can still stop things if they are cracked.
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/ceramic-armor-plate-xray
>>30577044
>im out of arguments but can't stop posting
>>30577060
>make shit up
>get reply about how it's actually made
>post gif
>>30577075
nah, it's probably just all you posting in here, i see the poster count.
>>30576844
i think you missed his point somewhere. Your armor should stop the maximum threat you're going to encounter, within reason. To include AP 5.56 and 7.62 BALL which is fielded the most. Your body armor is designed to keep you alive IF you get hit. That's its only point. You can survive most arterial bleeding on your appendages, but get into the world of sucking chest wounds or exsposed stomach you're risk of dying exacerbates itself. A study was done, if Vietnam soldiers had PASGT level armor the death toll would have been 80% less or something like that.
>>30577082
>I like how you ignored every point that I made
Because you stated facts that armor is designed to protect vitals
I'm stating that type of armor isn't be all end all "you will die if you don't use ceramics" like these fags are claiming
>>30577086
>nigger memes
>>30577128
you're still breathing. You need to rectify this situation right now.
Die, and stay dead.
>>30577106
>>get reply about how it's actually made
I looked up how it was made and at no point did it come up with "pressureless sintering"
>>30577106
>24 posters
>there has to be new posters to think you're retarded
>>30577142
http://www.nap.edu/read/13157/chapter/14
thanks for proving you don't actually know anything about how it's done, outside of just googling randomly whenever i pose you a question
>>30577112
You're strawmanning hard, m8. I never once claimed ceramics are an end-all-be-all. Nor did I say steel was shit. Like I said, I just saw your retarded comment while I was scrolling and popped in to call you out on it.
Armor exists purely to save your life in the event that a bullet would hit your heart or lungs, resulting in a sucking chest wound aka death within seconds without proper treatment.
Can you still die if you get hit in the limbs, abdomen, or head? Fuck yeah. But do you have a bit more time to respond to the situation? Yeah, and that's the whole point. You don't have time to react if you get hit in the chest. Even if you hit an artery, you still have a fighting chance to do something before you blackout from blood loss.
>>30577099
are you THIS fucking stupid?
>Please tell me how the content of this is not relevant to plates? Are plates tested to a different set of NIJ standards?
Answer the fucking question you dumb shit. Are the plates tested with a different set of NIJ standards where BFD is not a tested parameter? It's a rhetorical question because OBVIOUSLY THE FUCKING ANSWER IS NO. Now WHY WOULD THE FUCKING NIJ TEST FOR A PARAMETER THAT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER?
I must once again iterate my advice that you learn how to fucking read. Reading includes comprehension and critical thinking also, I must point out, in case your STUPID FUCKING SELF misses that point too.
Fuck you're dumb.
>>30577158
>mfw all these posts are just barely over 60s apart.
>>30577163
>outside of just googling randomly whenever
>implying i did it outside of once
>implying I didn't do it to be honest to check up if I was wrong
>implying doing this is somehow wrong
Go fuck yourself you condescending knowitall
>>30577172
>I never once claimed ceramics are an end-all-be-all
>you are all 24 posters in this thread
>resulting in a sucking chest wound aka death within seconds without proper treatment.
literally bullshit
>>30577206
You were wrong. Also >>30576804 doesn't sound like what you're saying now, huh? Nice backpedaling.
>>30577206
>>30577218
2 more posts from you just over 60s apart. Nice samefag.
>>30577206
lololol you just got fucking told and u mad because u dumb.
Fucking KYS.
But seriously anon, being willfully ignorant on topics you're passionate about is not a trait you want to have, and I say this without any pretense.
>>30577190
>>Please tell me how the content of this is not relevant to plates? Are plates tested to a different set of NIJ standards?
Steel plates do not deform as much as kevlar and only do so when shot by 308, not 5.56
There's your answer
>>30577233
>Also >>30576804 (You) doesn't sound like what you're saying now, huh?
>he thinks that was me
I'm not that guy, dicknose
You made a stupid claim without evidence, so I called you out
When you decided to claim he was wrong without providing it, I told you that you were a faggot, to which you responded with random processes that did not show up in my search
There's not just one person who thinks you post like a fag in this thread
>>30577275
>stupid claim
What was that? That steel properties are dependent on processing and temp? Did you fail your basic materials science class?
>random processes
Yeah, it's not like they're commonly used or anything like that.
>>30577252
>Steel plates do not deform as much as kevlar
that is correct and, frankly, obvious. But you failed to grasp that
1) we're comparing steel to ceramic
2) ceramic's matrix fracturing is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO ABSORB ENERGY THAT WOULD OTHERWISE CAUSE BFD.
So we have plastic deformation in steel vs material dispersion in ceramic. Which do you think causes a smaller maximum transient deformation in the clay? Rhetorical question again, because IT'S CERAMIC.
And since BFD is a very real concern for armor, which NIJ tests for (and which you seem to vehemently deny is a thing of importance), it's pretty obvious ceramics is better when it comes to trauma force mitigation.
Out of purely academic curiosity, were you one of those retards in the PDW thread talking shit about P90?
>>30577275
>random processes that did not show up in my search
they weren't random, you're just dumb. Like I said to the other guy, willful ignorance shouldn't be excused. I'm not the guy you're replying to, btw.
>>30577275
it's me >>30577384
to prove my point.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921509311005156
this took about 12 seconds.
Now if you dabbled in armor before or have actually picked up some real papers on this topic, you would know that Al2O3 is a very popular choice for TANK armor. Care to hazard a guess on why?
>>30577023
>At least you have a chance after that with steel
No because you'd already be dead
>>30577450
#SAVAGE
This fucking thread is why I'm tired of /k/. Even if you post good info fucking anons will fight you to the death to defend their preconceived notions about things they shouldn't even be fucking talking about. All you fucking youtube video analysts who think they understand armor need to calm down and maybe consider staying in your lane if you don't know something. Maybe read some shit by Dr. Gary Roberts.
And then in 3 weeks we're going to have this exact fucking thread again, and I'm probably going to post the exact same fucking information about NIJ standards, BFD, material properties, test methods, etc, only to fight the same derp opinions again.
>>30577484
listen amigo, most people are poor because they're stupid. Most people are stupid because they don't apply themselves. Most people don't apply themselves because they're lazy.
The truth in life is that you should always judge people against the lowest denominators until proven otherwise simply because it's the most expedient, and the denominators are indeed low when you're judge the people here, because 4chan is literally the bottom of the barrel.
>>30577306
>What was that?
that they weren't made by the process that guy pointed out
You claimed otherwise without providing proof of it
>Yeah, it's not like they're commonly used or anything like that.
In what industries?
>>30577484
I post a lot in tank threads. I know your feels. I have years of experience on tanks and have worked with the South Koreans and Germans. However some kid who reads wikipedia always knows more then me. You can't argue with these people there is no point. You can BTFO the argument with one reply, but they will always continue anyway grabbing at straws.
>>30577554
>You claimed otherwise without providing proof of it
Yes, because it was a blatant misrepresentation of how it's actually done.
>In what industries?
Armor, the one we're talking about.
This thread is the proofs that the owners of AR500.com browse /k/. I've never seen so much butthurt and unsupported/uncited damage control for a shitty product in my life.
>>30577348
>that is correct and, frankly, obvious
Well then it doesn't matter because it won't harm you
>>30577434
>you would know that Al2O3 is a very popular choice for TANK armor.
So is RHA which is basically AR500, dummy
Not even trying to disprove you, but RHA is a very commonly used material above and beyond Al2O3
>>30577484
>Maybe read some shit by Dr. Gary Roberts.
Ah yes, you again
Please claim that XM193 will punch through AR500 out of a 16 inch barrel again
It amuses me
>>30577579
>Armor, the one we're talking about.
well then it's not very commonly used now is it?
1/millions isn't common
>>30577592
I'm not tank anon but I'm pretty fucking sure RHA has not been the primary component in tank armor for a long ass time. I was under the impression that people only give penetration stats in mm of RHA because it's fairly standardized and the material properties and performance are well documented.
>>30577607
Yeah, it's not like the guy is known for armor testing or anything. Your youtube video is totally worth more than independent lab tests, you should call up the DOD and ask if you can give the terminal ballistics briefings instead of him.
>>30577628
You're really grasping for straws now, huh? Just because something isn't common in general industry doesn't mean it can't be common in a specific industry. That's like saying ballistic testing isn't a common practice in armor because companies that make toasters and refrigerators don't do ballistic testing.
>>30577554
you know this is 4chan, right? I have a 6 figure salary that doesn't start with a 1 (or a 2 for that matter) and I am HIGHLY qualified in my field (hence my compensation). But I don't post on 4chan to teach. I post on 4chan to have fun; what can I say? I enjoy shit posting. Having said that, you should be able to tell when you're screaming at someone who is more qualified than you, and if you wished to really learn instead of scoring worthless internet kudos on fucking 4chan, you would have done some real research instead of typing away like a mad animal.
It's really about substance, and most fags here have very little of it. You can improve yourself by learning more, but I doubt you will.
>>30577592
>Not even trying to disprove you, but RHA is a very commonly used material
RHA is more a rating than anything else now. The HEAT defeating properties of modern composite armor is either from the (heavily packed) ceramic matrix or the space armor. Steel's purpose is shifting to structural integrity for the armor block and outer protection for the...well, armor block.
>>30573563
>>30575607
>>30575607
>>30576276
Just go to the milsurp store and buy an old PASGT vest to wear under your AR500 plates like a rational pooranoid person.
>>30577669
>you should call up the DOD and ask if you can give the terminal ballistics briefings instead of him.
naw, I'd rather tell you that you're wrong on what does and doesn't penetrate AR500
>>30577669
>You're really grasping for straws now, huh?
I'm not grasping at fucking anything
I've called you out twice now for making a claim you can't back up and you just say "well you're retarded" when I do so
Don't try to act like the smart one here, jackass
>>30577671
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
What about ceramic plate on top, layer of rubber underneath it and under that a steel plate?
>>30577804
>literally no attempt to provide evidence
Yup, the lab testing was wrong. Obviously they scored it a shoot-through when it stopped, the holes in the plate are supposed to be there :^)
>>30577816
>I've called you out twice now for making a claim you can't back up and you just say "well you're retarded" when I do so
Uh huh. Remind me again?
>>30577831
Mine wasn't a pasta. I was hoping you would have had the courtesy to write something original.
>>30577848
how strong are you? Why not just strap on blocks of NERA?
>>30573563
Just warp it in ducktap
>>30577848
Some companies do hybrid plates with both steel and UHMWPE layers. Those are usually good performers. There are also hybrid plates with ceramic and steel. Also good but of course on the agency level you should have a system for periodic x-ray for any plates with a ceramic component.
>>30573595
>https://www.survival-bug-out.com/pages/why-ar-500-body-armor-isn-t-a-good-deal
that link is bad simply because it states certain bullets can penetrate it. those rounds in question are all BEYOND what the armor is rated for.
>>30577915
I did this, and shot it with a 30-30.
>it worked.
>>30578553
That's not the point though. A lot of people buy armor not even knowing what it's rated for and end up regretting it. Same thing happens with UHMWPE level III plates.
>>30573563
I would personally just get ceramic because a four plate setup is already really heavy, no need to go all cheap and make it heavier.
>>30575740
While I don't doubt steel being able to take more hits than ceramic, I already resigned to the fact that if I am getting hit that many times in a SHTF situation, I fucked up real bad or keep fucking up real bad. Its great to have the insurance of plates that can take a lot of hits, but my own personal mindset is just staying low and out of things, and if it comes time to put on my armor, I have to try my fucking hardest to actuallynot get into a firefight, because I know my limits.
>>30575857
>$400
NIJ 06 level IV's can be had for $150 per 10x12 plate.
If you're looking at ultra lightweight IV plates with multicurve, then yea, it'll cost you.
>>30575909
Pretty sure it was m193 shot with high muzzle velocity out of a longer barrel that went through III plates
>>30579134
Read rest of thread. They recalled 2 months production of plates because it wouldn't even meet NIJ III requirements.
It seems like http://highcomsecurity.com/collections/plates/products/guardian-4sas-7?variant=361423011
is the best bang for the buck. Any thoughts? I'm obviously trying to get the best i can(while saving some nickels and dimes and hopefully some woodrows)
I dont get why any of you fags are still argueing about this. Ceramic is in every way shape and form safer than steel. The only thing safer than that is my cock in your mother's fuckcavity on a christmas day
>>30577484
Well you educated and convinced me on ceramics, so thanks.
The other kid is a dense neckbeard
>>30581377
If you really want to be anal about it, the 4SAS7 was tested under NIJ .04, which had a less stringent testing compared to the newer NIJ .06 standard.
Not to say it's shit, though, namely it'll stop intended rounds the same.
If you try and look for the newer NIJ standard plates, price will go up. If you look for multicurve of that, it goes up even further.
At the end of the day, just recognize what role your armor will play and the reality of limitations you will have, not like you'll have the US military backing you with supplies and equipment. And it's not like you'll be engaging motherfuckers left and right by yourself.
Could someone explain to me how age affects ceramics?
And, is 5 years the real limit, or just the "that's all we'll warranty it for" period? How long can ceramics actually be effective with moderate use? How long can they sit in a closet before they really need to be replaced?
>>30581582
its not food dumbass
>>30581656
It is if you believe in yourself
desu I don't think modern body armor covers enough of the chest.
Particularly under the arms
>>30581656
So, you're claiming that ceramics never degrade with age? That's not what I've heard, but o.k.
>>30577172
Just my halfcent of opinion. I like steel better because it doesn't necessarily degrade on a low-rate hit like ceramics do; yeah I have to put soft armor backing to handle impulse deformation, but for the cost of an advanced superthin ceramic I get a much more durable system. But then I'm also the idiot who would get a gunner kit for foot slogging and still feel underprotected
>>30577749
>pooranoid
>>>/k/ 's "word for the day"
>>30577903
does a single plate weight 50kg?
>>30582054
mobility/comfort vs. protection
Im new to this whole armor thing, but a lot of it seems gimmicky and unnecessary and crazy expensive. $150 for a FUCKING METAL PLATE SPRAYED WITH BULLSHIT? This should cost 30 dollar tops.
Can I just put a bench press weight in there and call it good? Those are like 5 bucks at walmart.
>>30581582
There are still clay pots from prehistory and they still work.
So, thousands and thousands of years from now you can still stop a bullet.
>>30583545
yes, you literally can.
Who has a good price on plates these days?
>>30583545
Yes and spray it with a rubberized coating
>>30581377
Far from the best deal out there, you can find 7.5 lbs ceramics like those are for half that price.
>>30583634
SKD tactical, AT Armor.
>>30583557
O.K., so why do people talk about having to replace their armor every few years? Does that only apply to kevlar?
>>30586764
The replacement is oftentimes a liability thing (eg: 5 years is what the manuf. is willing to support the plates for, so a dept. can't use the plates for longer without risking lawsuits if the plates fail). Also ceramic plates left in vehicles and battered around as the car goes over bumps, will get some microfractures. If your dept. can't find someone to x-ray on an annual basis it may just be easier to start throwing all the plates out after a certain period.
>>30587032
O.K., so closet armor as a prep is good indefinitely? That's excellent news.
Armor has always been way, way down on my prepping list. But, after seeing Racist Murderer X wearing what sure looks like a plate carrier to me, I think it might be a good idea to acquire some before they try to ban it or something.
>>30581397
That's nice to hear. Good to see some of this stuff is getting out there.
>>30587625
Pretty much. From a chemical perspective ceramic plates are pretty damn stable.
I was at a surplus store earlier today and they had large US surplus armor vests of some sort. They were very heavy, bulletproof kevlar maybe? They were easily 20 pounds. They had molle webbing all over them. They had pockets for a front and back armor plate built right into them. They had large straps that went over the shoulder almost like a backpack. They had the usual contractor number tag, so it looked like like they were official US military issue.
What are these called? They dont seem to be flak jackets or PASGT vests or FLC vests.
